Looking for a new tin whistle

Looking for a new tin whistle

Currently I have a Clarke D tin whistle, and as much as I enjoy it it almost seems impossible to play the D key without getting a sharp tone to it at first even if I blow lightly into it. Not sure if this is just my playing, or if it’s the whistle, so I was looking for another alternative to give a shot. So I’m currently looking for some recommendations of a whistle to get as my next one. I’ve had my current one for 2 years and I had put it down for a while due to the high pitch sound I get in certain lower notes. I’m really interested in picking it back up as I have wrist issues keeping me from playing my guitar now, and I still want to play something and love the way the whistle sounds.

I would like something that can be used for a good variety of celtic tunes, and I’m thinking of keeping it in the Key of D until I learn more about the tin whistle.

Maybe the squeaking I get in the lower notes is my own fault, but I’ll still take recommendations and/or tips on what I may be doing wrong.

Thanks in advance,
Mike

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

I’m not sure what’s going on with your low notes. Try jumping between octaves to see if there’s something you can do with your breath and the back of your throat to make the low notes speak without a chirp.

D whistles are standard for Irish playing. As far as other whistles, you could try a Generation, Oak, or Walton’s, any of which can be had for under $20. My personal favorite is the Walton’s Little Black Whistle, though it’s a little quiet for session playing. You could spend a bunch more money on a handmade whistle if you’re inclined, but lots of players stick to cheap whistles and I wouldn’t recommend spending a lot unless you fall in love with the sound of a particular high-end whistle.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

Ah, yet another whistle-recommendation-thread! Which Clarke do you have - the Meg/Sweetone model or the original with the wooden fipple? If the latter is getting squeaky in the lower notes, then I’d say that something isn’t alright with it. It takes a lot of air and therefore is quite forgiving concerning breath control IMO.

Usually whistles squeak in the lower 8ve when the register transitions are balanced too sensitive, and I definitively wouldn’t say this of the Clarke Original. Or it really *is* you :-)

However, the tuning of (cheap) whistles is an issue. But all whistles with a separate mouthpiece are tunable to a certain degree, or can easily be made tunable. And in my experience all those cheapies are more or less in tune with themselves, at least.

As always, I’m gonna praise the Dixon Trad whistle now. In its class, you won’t get a better whistle IMHO. It plays really nicely, the register transitions are as smooth as they can be, and the timbre is simply lovely. And it won’t ever squeak. But a youtube says more than thousand words…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGO1ORo73bo


That said, of course you could get yourself one of those classic cheapies as well, most of them are quite good. On a few of them… First of all, there are the Generations - the embodiment of the typical whistle sound IMHO, but rather capricious. The Walton’s are very chiffy and quiet, also take slightly more air and are everything but squeaky. There’s also a variant called "Mellow", which has a wider bore, is somewhat louder and has a significantly purer sound; I like these a lot, more than the standard. And the Feadógs would probobly be my personally preferred ones in this category, they are insanely responsive and have a very bright and crisp sound. If you have problems with squeaks, I’d advice against them, though.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

ElaineT, the little black whistle, really? I use mine to wipe off stuck cuttings from the inside tube when making simple PVC whistles… :-D

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

Thanks for the suggestions so far everyone.
The Clarke I have is the Clarke Celtic Tin Whistle - D which if I understand correctly is just a Sweetone with a different paint job. I like the look and sound of that Dixon Trad Whistle not sure what the difference between the Nickel and the Brass is in sound and playing, if there is one at all. I’m not looking for loud since I just play at home in my living room, or at the computer to record so I can hear myself after actually playing.
Not sure if I should spend the money on the Dixon Trad or if I should get one of the "cheapies" that megapop suggested that is leverything but squeaky, the Waltons or maybe the Mellow since it has a purer sound.

Looks like I’ve got some youtube videos to watch to hear some comparisons.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

I remember picking up one or two really cheapies that were sensitive on the lower octave. Most likely you just need to control your breath a little bit more. Try blowing really gently to see if you get the same squeaks. Apart from that it would be hard to pin point it without hearing a sound clip.

In my opinion (as I say in EVERY whistle thread lol) try the Oak D whistles. A bit harder to find in a store but easy to get a hold of online. They sell for about $8-$12 and are nickel plated brass. In my opinion they’re the perfect whistle all around. Been playing mine for years and years and I still love it.

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Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

I was having the same trouble with my new Jerry Freeman tweaked Generation D. It just needed alot less air than the one i was used to. Getting used to it took a few days.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

I can hit the D note with less air, but it’s considerably less compared to the E note, to the point where it doesn’t even flow right. As you go from BAGFE you use less air for each note, then D is significantly less air where it trips me up every time I switch to a D. Maybe that’s typical for this whistle? Just really a pain to get used to.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

Myself, I don’t think the consistency of the Clarke Sweettone and Meg whistles is nearly as good as the old fashioned wooden fipple ones. I have been playing the wooden fipple ones for years, without any complaints. But often, when you are starting the whistle, regardless of which one you use, you will have difficulties between the octaves, and other minor pitch problems that tend to disappear as you become more comfortable playing the instrument.
Could be worse—you could be learning the fiddle, which can take months before it sounds like you are doing something other than strangling the family cat. ;-)

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

My advice is to get a Dixon Trad. Not much more in cost than the old cheapies, but much better quality.

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Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

Is there a possibility you’re either not covering the holes completely or your whistle is leaking? A leak will make the bottom D unstable. You can always try a little teflon tape where the fipple meets the body of the whistle.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

I don’t think the price/performance combination can be beat for any of the tweaked whistles Jerry Freeman sells.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

For some reason I have a problem paying more money for a cheapie (read - sh!tty) whistle that needs to be ‘tweaked’ to sound ‘good’. Shou;ld’nt it just sound decent from the get go. By buying tweaked whistles aren’t you just admitting the said whistle is bad from the start? Weird.

I’ll post a clip of the Oak tomorrow. It’s the same airflow throughout the lower octave. No need to worry about lowering your airflow as you’re going down the octave.

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Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

@megapop - My LBW has a lovely, mellow tone without too much chiff. It’s sort of a poor man’s Sindt. The only reason I got a more expensive whistle is my LBW doesn’t have the volume for big session or a crowded pub. (My session whistle is an Abell.)

@Malik, I don’t consider some of the tweaked Generations to be improvements over the $11 original. The problem with Generations is consistency. When you buy a tweaked one, you know what you’re getting.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

I’ve stayed off the subject just for the sake of not getting into a deep discussion about it but…

I still don’t understand why you would buy a tweaked whistle. I can see that as being a viable option 15 or 20 years ago but with so many choices today that are ready to go as is it doesnt seem to make much sense to me. Yes you may know what you’re getting every time you’re getting a tweaked whistle but that’s because someone took something that was inferior/inconsistent to start with and spent time fixing the problem. It’s like buying a 70’s Ford Pinto back in the day and having a mechanic give it a once over and tweaking it. The thing is - you’re still driving a Ford Pinto.

With all the whistles out there, my opinion is to buy something that is actually made properly from the get go. And I know I’ll have people saying Feadogs and Gens are great but the thing is that SOME of them are great while the bulk of them are pretty crappy. From counting what I have on hand, I have 8 Feadog’s and Gens and one is decent that I would play. As to why I keep the other ones? It’s only because people gave them to me, otherwise they’d be propping up one of my plants.

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Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

I think you should think of ‘tweaking’ whistles more as changing their character than as ‘fixing’ them. A new whislte is being created as it were from an off the shelf half-product as it were.

To my mind a ‘tweaked’ whistle (and quite a few of the ‘expensive’ ones) needs as much care in selecting a suitable one as you would put into picking a nice mass produced one. Very few makers and ‘tweakers’ deliver a 100% consistent product, no matter how much they want you to believe they do.

Also, a lot of people whining about the quality of their cheap whistles find, after a few years of learning to play, the whistles perform a lot better with increased skills.

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Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

malik, my Freeman-tweaked "Blackbird" is clearly better than most of $100+ whistles I have ever tried. Sure, a Sindt is a bit better. It also costs 3+ times as much and has a long waiting list. To me that makes recommending Freeman whistles the obvious choice.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

"Could be worse - you could be learning the fiddle, which can take months before it sounds like you are doing something other than strangling the family cat. ;-)" I’d say only stepping on it. The pipes sounds like you’re strangling the family cat while kicking the neighbor’s duck. :-) Okay, that may be a bit overboard, but still, it could be even worse.

Back on topic, I use a Feadog, and it is pretty good. It seems a bit quite for a session though, and it takes a little bit of tweaking, but not much. As megapop said, it is INSANELY responsive. Sometimes so much so that I find myself playing a bit too fast… I’ll probably get the Dixon Trad sometime next year. Have a Merry Christmas!

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

A high pitch sound on lower notes honestly sounds like a "user error," you not completely covering the holes as ElaineT said, or possibly overblowing it. Some whistles are more easily overblown and less forgiving than others, but it’s still a player issue. I think Generations and Feadogs are on the forgiving end of things as far as cheapie whistles go.

I’ve had one of the Clarkes with a wooden fipple and one of the Sweetone ones (the latter in C). I don’t recall the wooden one being terribly easy to play (that’s why I gave it to my father, who plays didjeridoo and African drums, a session’s worst nightmare — LOL) and the Sweetone had a crap-sounding upper octave.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

This generated quite a discussion that I didn’t expect. Thanks for all the opinions and suggestions, and all the options are helping me narrow it down from all the options that are out there. I think I have narrowed it down to either and Oak, Waltons Mellow, or a Dixon Trad as my next one.

I’m not saying that the D note squeak isn’t a user error as it most likely is, but the amount of difference from the E to the D is huge in the amount of air that it’s quite hard to get used to. I may just continue my practicing on the Clarke Celtic D that I have and hope that I can get used to it before I go ahead and buy another whistle.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

@malik "For some reason I have a problem paying more money for a cheapie (read - sh!tty) whistle that needs to be ‘tweaked’ to sound ‘good’. Shou;ld’nt it just sound decent from the get go. By buying tweaked whistles aren’t you just admitting the said whistle is bad from the start? Weird.

I’ll post a clip of the Oak tomorrow. It’s the same airflow throughout the lower octave. No need to worry about lowering your airflow as you’re going down the octave."

The problem with the cheap un-tweaked whistles is that they are mass produced with rather poor quality control. That’s why you get good ones and poor ones. What Jerry Freeman, and other tweakers, do is hand finish the mass produced product to improve it.

As to the Oak: it is just like all the other cheap ones. I’ve got one that is terribly out of tune. Does that mean yours is bad? No it just means that the mass produced whistles are inconsistent.

O.P.: if you’ve actually limited to the three you mention I’d suggest the Dixon, even though they are not my favorite sound. Better consistency seems to me.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

@cboody I have limited it to those three from the comments in this post, and from listening on youtube. Unfortunately the music shop near me doesn’t carry any tin whistles at the store, so I can’t go there to try them out before I buy. The other music shop is an hour drive and I’m not sure if they carry tin whistles, may have to give them a call and see if they do and what varieties they have, and see if they also allow people to try before they buy.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

Here is my quick, inexpensive, list;
Oaks for $10-12
Dixon Trad $20
Freeman Tweaked $30-35
Parks and Hoovers $40-70
All of them good or very good.
Of course, you can spend more. LOTS more.

I’ve yet to own a ‘nice’ stock Feadog or Generation, and I’ve bought many.
You won’t KNOW what you like till you’ve tried more makers, and those opinions may change with time
and practice.
Freemans were my favorites, before my Sindt arrived.

Good luck!

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Re: Oh dear, just get yourself that bloody tin whistle! :-)

RhetoricCamel, do you seriously want to drive an hour to a music store, just to try a whistle that costs as much as one or two pints of beer? I mean, buying a whistle isn’t like considering the purchase of an ivory flute…

Grab your pocket money, go to any random online music store and get yourself the next best whistle with your favourite coloured mouthpiece! If you don’t want to spend $20 blindly on a Dixon, get a Generation for about 5 bucks. You won’t go wrong with any of the whistles mentioned. Sooner or later, you’ll have them all anyway.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

@megapop if I made the trip to the music store an hour away I would make it worth it and I’d get a few items for my guitar too, not just the whistle. I guess you’re right though, maybe I’ll just buy all 3 whistles and I’ll be good for a while playing around with them all.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

@RhetoricCamel - Before you assume it’s fingers, I’d still suggest you check your whistle for leaks through the seam or where the fipple joins the tube. Cover all six holes, set the whistle on your bare leg to seal the bottom, put your mouth over the fipple, draw in air, and see if the whistle will hold a bit of vacuum. If not, a leak is the source of your trouble. A little electrical or Scotch tape down the seam and where the fipple meets the tube might sort your problems.

I see the WhOA (Whistle Obsessive Acquisition Disorder) is kicking in on schedule.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

I am with malik on Oaks. I play mine in sessions though I have a few of the real expensive whistles.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

"It’s like buying a 70’s Ford Pinto back in the day and having a mechanic give it a once over and tweaking it. The thing is - you’re still driving a Ford Pinto. "

Oh my, that’s a terrible analogy. to compare a machine as complex as a car to a whistle seems silly. I mean you can, but I wouldn’t. :)

As another poster said, the tweaked whistle is like a new whistle. you get the benefit of the mass production keeping the price low added to great "quality control." Works for me.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

My first car was a Ford Pinto. $3000 brand new. Bought it from someone down the street who won it in a raffle.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

I guess I should have said "you can put a ribbon on a piece of sh!t but it’s still a piece of crap" :p

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Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

Looking for a new tin whistle, was feeling ‘bout half past dead
I just need some place where I can lay my head
Hey mister, can you tell me where a man might find a new tin whistle?
He just grinned and shook my hand, "No" was all he said

(The Band, adapted)

:-)

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

@Malik: have you played any of these cheap, tweaked whistles? They are really quite nice. For $30 you can get a whistle that plays well and sounds great. A Freeman tweaked generation plays like the old ones did, which were good enough for players like Micho Russell and Mary Bergin.

I think you are worrying to much about provenance. Instead of thinking about where they came from, think of what the whistles are and how they play now, and then consider if it is worth the $30. Your logic is flawed… That is like me saying that I don’t want to buy a wooden flute because it started off as a tree.

I play a tweaked generation every day. It plays well, sounds nice, and is very cheap. It does not have the same dynamic range and possibilities as my Burke, and it is definitely not as in tune, but I don’t have to take care of my generation or worry about it at all. Honestly, if I play at a session, a gig or at a competition, it is on my Burke, but I leave my generation on my desk to twiddle out ideas and new tunes throughout the day. I also play and chew gum at the same time, which I would never do with a handmade, expensive whistle. Nobody is saying that tweaked whistles are better than the best handmade whistles, but it is just kind of off to say they are no good just because of how they are made.

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Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

By the way, what are the black Guinness whistles like? Anyone tried one?

Im just happened to see some on sale in the local market the other day.

Perhaps I ought to forgo 2 pints of my regular intake one session night, and spend the saved £6 on one of these whistles, to find out for myself what they are like and embark on new epics of self-development and technological mastery.

But I will probably not have it in me to forgo those 2 pints, because I have a weak character.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

nicholas, AFAIK they’re just beer-coloured Little Black Whistles.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

I’m actually just giving you tweaked freaks a hard time. That said, I still wouldn’t spend good money on a ‘tweaked whistle’. Just one man’s opinion though and I know everyone has their own thoughts here as to what’s the best whistle.

I went through my nutty whistle phase about 20 years ago buying whistle after whistle pretty much just for the sake of it. I now play an Oak and a Sindt and that’s all I need. The Oak cost $10 so there’s no need to spend more than that to get a good whistle. The Oak actually gets more public play time as it has a bit more volume than the Sindt.

Like I said, to each their own though.

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Re: Looking for an Oak whistle

Hey malik, I’d love to give the Oak a try, too! I’ve been looking for one for quite some time now. Unfortunately, apparently they aren’t being sold on this side of the pond, and I kind of don’t feel like paying twice the price of the whistle just for postage…

So, if anyone knows a dealer who sells them in Europe - please introduce me to them!

Besides, I know exactly what you mean regarding tweaked whistles. I can’t hear it anymore either. Someone is seeking for some whistle advice, and immediately a chorus arises praising the one and only. Maybe they are fantastic whistles, okay, but whistle acquisition isn’t and shouldn’t be driven by mere logic only, as suggested by daiv. When I get myself a new whistle (and those tweaked whistles are not *that* cheap, BTW), I want a genuine whistle, with all its edges.

And then I can still consider tweaking it myself - which is much more rewarding and satisfying than paying someone else to do so. It’s great fun (yes, one might have to break some eggs…), and in the end you have a nice whistle which *you* have tweaked according to your personal taste and needs. This can’t be achieved by any professional tweaker.
It costs almost nothing, and usually it’s easier than one might think - except for a complete redesign of the labium and window maybe, which I haven’t really figured out yet. But then, if the entire mouthpiece design is crap, it might just be the wrong whistle for you from the first. FWIW.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

@megapop: have you ever played a tweaked whistle by freeman? and yes, he does reshape the edge (is that the labium?) just a little bit. i am not against tweaking whistles yourself, but if someone is new to the whistle they don’t know how a good whistle should play. i think it is hard to criticize unless you have played them yourself.

i think that whistle acquisition should be approached by logic, and your approach is indeed logical as well. you have specific wants, and you feel that your needs can be best met by your own tweaking. how is that illogical? mr. freeman does great work, but that doesn’t mean that no one else does. it just means that he (and i’m sure others) do it professionally, and have experience enough to do it more quickly and efficiently, with less failures than you or i.

let’s leave whistles for a second and go to concertinas. i do my own concertina repairs and general maintenance, but i visit the maker twice a year for reed tuning and reseating, and and adjustment on the levers. i could do all this myself, but it would take me a full week to do all that he does in a couple hours, which includes stopping for lunch, chatting, and making a custom set of hand straps. i would rather spend my time practicing than doing it all myself, just as i would rather pay someone to make me tweaked whistles. many of my friends, however, do more of this work at home and only send their instruments in every few years, especially those who learned how to do this before they owned instruments from a maker in the states. i have no problem with this, but i would never recommend a beginner do any of this heavy work on their own. new players can manage putting in new pads or removing a reed shoe, but not extensive maintenance on a whole instrument. what you are advocating for is similar to this. new whistlers probably shouldn’t tweak their own, and many people couldn’t be bothered to do it or learn how.

if i have a choice in what instruments my students play, i have them buy a tweaked freeman when they start out. for one of my first whistle students, i had tweaked a whistle myself by putting a head from a generation onto a walton body (i could be wrong on that), and modified the whistle head a bit myself (putty in the cavity, etc.). it played great and i took two whistles that played like junk and made a great new whistle. it cracked after a few months. instead of trying again, she got a burke, because i didn’t know about the tweaked whistles at that point. since then, we have both gotten tweaked freeman’s as our backup whistles.

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Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

When I first started out with the D whistle, I was convinced that my fingers were shaped wrong to completely seal all of the holes to get rid of that squeek on D. I purchased a whole bunch of whistles and never felt comfortably rid of the problem. Then an experienced whistler told me to try two things before having my fingers reshaped. 1. Try changing the angle that you hold the whistle. sometimes this affects the velocity or turbulence of the air over the fipple. And @2. move your tongue a little further back in your mouth on the low notes to create a larger resonance cavity. I found both suggestions were helpful and between them I seldom hear that sharp squeek. I am not saying this is the answer, but it is worth trying. Of course acquiring new whistles is a lot more fun

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

Good suggestions, alfred. My experience is that many problems with whistles are actually problems with technique. Too often, the search for new whistles is used in the pursuit of better playing, while practice is actually the best means to that end. And it costs a lot less in the long run!

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

Dept. Of Redundancy here:

In a quick skim of the above postings, I saw no specific mention of Dixon tunable all-polymer whistles.

I wonder why - the sound I get from mine (played weekly for years now) is lovely, it does not have the same often harsh qualities as most metal whistles I have heard, and the price is more than fair for what you get.
I also have found the same to be true of the low whistles.

I started long ago with metal Generations, Oaks, what ever was around, but my current whistles make me, and apparently the listeners, much happier. (It is also true that I may have improved as a player a little since then, but all in all, I think my Dixons have made a huge difference all by themselves.)

FWIW,

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Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

@daiv: Okay, some good points indeed. So just a few more thoughts (sorry for forking this thread…):

My statement against getting tweaked whistles was very much my personal matter, of course. I admitted that professionally tweaked whistles may be fantastic - I just wouldn’t get one myself (on stubborn principle, maybe). I’m having a lot of fun tweaking myself, finally knowing that I’ve improved as much as possible by myself. Getting one readily tweaked would leave me with a kind of flat and unsatisfied feeling. Strangely enough. That’s not logic, just my personal intuition.

Tweaking itself (as opposed to acquisition) of course is logical calculus, I wouldn’t want make a whistle worse or something. And I absolutely agree that tweaking isn’t something that someone entirely new to the whistle should do. You need to have played a few to see how different the playing characteristics can be, and played them well enough to realize what their limits are (and not your limits as a player).

For a beginner it might be very useful to get a whistle which is tweaked for best playability, for sure. My statement wasn’t meant as an advice against buying tweaked whistles, really - sorry if I conveyed that impression! I just concurred with malik in our personal, intuitive and probably irrational aversion against spending money on tweaked whistles. Call me narrow minded. :-)

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

@Megapop - Irrational, speak for youself! j/k.

No, but it is very much a personal matter and one that I just don’t see paying for (in my opinion) a very sh!t whistle that is tweaked by someone to make it playable. Like I said earlier to each their own and different whistles go for different tastes and styles and situations.

As for the polymer Dixon’s and other makes - I’ve tried a couple (one just two weeks ago) but can’t recall what brands, not a Dixon though. My experience with polymers is so so, I guess I haven’t played one that knocked my socks off and thought that I must have it. From what I played (and heard played by other people) I feel the sound is too much like a recorder or ‘plasticky’ so I’ve stayed away.

Also @Megapop
Check this out. A few sellers in the UK for Oak whistles off Amazon. 8 pounds plus 3 pounds shipping.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/0825603285/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new

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Re: Having found a new tin whistle!

@Malik: Wow, thanks a lot! At the end of the day, it’s always Amazon, eh?

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

Bloody Amazon! I keep buying things from them because they have the best deals going, especially for awkward-to-find books. And then I feel riddled with guilt for contributing to their profiteering tax-dodging ways.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

And on another note (hahaha… no pun intended)…

I’ve tweaked quite a few Generation whistles. I find that while first octave might be all right, the second octave is frequently sharp and some Blue-Tac rammed into the head sorts this out. I obviously loosen the head in order to do this and that also makes the whistle slightly more tunable. I know that Freeman and other whistle-tweakers (you could, at one point, get Feadogs — I believe that — Cillian O’Briain had footered with to improve) put putty into the head and they also fiddle with the windway. I only put putty into the head and I find this improves it enough to be happily playable. That all said, my main whistle is an Overton, so…..

Re: “Bloody Amzon! […]”

DrSilverSpear, I agree with every single word! As for items that are not sold by Amazon itself, it’s usually worth contacting the original sellers directly to cut out Amazon. In particular, I’ve come across quite a few trad-supply underdogs this way.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

That’s worth knowing. Never thought of that.

Re: Looking for a new tin whistle

i have recently bought a cheap feadóg tin whistle and im 12 and a beginner but i have found no problems with the feadóg tin whistle so far.My one was cheap but there are some that are in the more expensive range(not to expensive though)and they are pro ones but if you ask me im happy with my cheap one