Playing mainly scandinavian folk music on the box until now, but later more and more celtic, I seriously consider to buy a "irish" box or concertina when I visit Ireland this summer. The boxes I use now are tuned in a/d and g/c and I think that the b/c, c#/d etc. boxes are more suited for the celtic music.
Here are some questions that I hope some will give me an answer to
Box -
b/c, c#/d or other tunings, what shall I choose? (I've played box in six years, but as said little celtc)
What kind of box? (saltarelle, soprani etc)
What's the price?, used or new?
I am sure I get a lot of different answers about this, but I am open for all advice.
Then some question about the anglo concertina
- I've noticed that a lot of box players also plays the concertina.
How similar is these instruments? Is it easier to learn the concertina with a box background?
- Then what kind of tuning shall I choose and what kind of concertina? (totally new to the instrument)
b/c seem to be the main box these days although a substantial minority use C#/D. There are still a number of highly capable players who use the D/G box. I think it's more which you think sounds best. Find box players you like the sound of and find out which system they use. Each system has advantages and disadvantages and produces it's own style.
Personally, I don't rate Salterelles as much as Castagnaris and Paolo Soprani aren't the same company they were in the past (another company bought their trade name/mark). For a decent new box you're talking at least £1000 - £2000 depending on spec. Second hand boxes - you won't get them much cheaper than new. With any instrument get your hands on as many makes and models as you can and see what takes your fancy - even with the top quality boxes there are differences in tone and playability.
Transferring box skills to the anglo concertina isn't as easy as you might think. You've already got the hang of the way the scales work so playing a single melody line shouldn't be too difficult; but apart from that, if you want to use the concertina to its full potential, it is a different instrument that you'll have to learn almost from scratch.
Good(ish) starter concertinas (with accordian reeds) can be got from about £200 -300. Good quality new boxes fall into two main categories accordion reeded (£1000+) or concertina reeded (£3000?) which will be hand made to order probably. A good alternative is to get an old (generally pre WW2) English made box such as Lachenal, Wheatstone, Crabb (who continued to the 1970s) and Jeffries. Your probably talking at least £800 for a refurbished bottom of the range Lachenal to £3000+ for a Jeffries.
Concertinas are usually G/C, some G/D and Bb/Eb. G/C are by far the most common so the easiest to get hold of. G/Ds are a bit easier to play the main keys of G, D and related minors and the Bb/Eb are probably better for singing along with.
I also forgot to say that for a 'chromatic' concertina you'll want at least 30 buttons.
You should check some concertina players websites out. If you contcat them directly they will probably give you some info on it. Here are there web address's
www.providence-trad.com/morconcertina/morecd.html -
...Micheal O' Raghallaigh on Concertina
www.padraigrynne.com Pádraig Rynnes website
www.slide.ie/ Aogain Lynch Band.
There are loads more but there are e mail addresses on there that can probably help you to contact them. As far as I know they all have Suttner concertinas and have their own unique types of tuning systems.
Tony O Connel is another great one if you can find a contact for him.
Suttner Concertinas: Anglo and english concertinas, handmade to the highest standards according to the historical models of Wheatstone and Jeffries. This is worth a look too.
www.suttnerconcertinas.com/
I suggest that you buy an Irish Dancemaster accordion.... you can find them at http://www.irishdancemaster.com/accordion.html . Low price, but wonderful sound, and the action is smooth as silk. I think you should get a box, because I much prefer the sound of a box to that of a concertina, plus it's easier to play.
Tuning-wise, I reccomend B/C-it's more popular, it conveniently has all the naturals on one row and all the accidentals on the other. Only get a C#/D if you REALLY want to spend a lot of time on just one row.
your best bet is probably not to go to ireland hoping for a concertina, although you could be lucky. there are 4 general categories of concertinas: cheap mass produced, handmade concertinas with accordian reeds, handmade concertinas with concertina reeds, and vintage concertinas.
for cheap, mass produced concertinas, the only brand currently worth purchasing is a stagi. you can purchase one from http://www.buttonbox.com . you could probably find them in stores in ireland, but the button box retunes and adjusts every new instrument, so it would be better to have it retuned and adjusted for free before you get it, rather than for a price afterwards. i have a stagi and have enjoyed it a lot. i have 2 concertinas on order, however, and have definitely outgrown the stagi.
if you are willing to pay around $1,500 (USD), then you could go with an accordian reeded, hand made concertina. i have an edgley on order (http://www.concertinas.ca/ ), and it took me a while to tell the difference between it and a much more expensive model (i found that difference, and in 3 years, that other one will be ready and i will have both). you could also go with a tedrow concertina ( http://hmi.homewood.net/ ). they are good concertinas, but i fell in love with the edgley. someday when i have the money, i'm tempted to buy a tedrow miniature conertina. the button box also makes their own concertinas, as well as selling other manufactures. i have never played a morse ( http://buttonbox.com/morse.html ) but i have only heard good things about them.
concertina reeded, handmade concertinas are more expensive and have wait of anywhere from 2 to 4 years. suttner has already been mentioned. i have a carroll on order ( http://carrollconcertinas.com ). both are amazing concertinas, and you couldnt go wrong with either of them. if you were interested in shelling out $5,000 (USD... i doubt you would be, if you've never played a concertina), i know someone who has a suttner a-2 for sale. i have never played any of the other high level makers, and dont know their websites off the top of my head. many makers do not have websites, like geoff crabb.
vintage concertinas have already been discussed, so i wont be redundant.
Bite the bullet - get a Castagnari Din II or Din III, tuned B/C. If you're really committed to learning the Irish box, this is where you'll end up anyway. Entry and intermedaite level instruments will just waste your time and money.
I decided that I wanted to play the box, so earlier this year I took the (financial) plunge and bought a used Cairdin Mini-Deluxe. They go new for $2970 USD, but I got mine for only $1800, which I thought was a deal. It needed some tweaks but I couldn't be happier with it. Whatever you do, don't buy a cheap instrument or you'll only discourage yourself. Plus, you'll just have to write off a cheap box as a a loss because the resale value is so low.
You mentioned that you're already a box player on different systems, so there's no real "trying out" period to see if you can handle an accordion, no reason to buy something so cheap.
I prefer the sound of a button accordion to concertina. What I've been doing lately is listening to different recordings of people playing button accordions and finding out what kind they play. I've come to the conclusion that I like a swing tuned, b/c, stepped keyboard castagnari!
I disagree with all of you...C#/D kicks all hell out of B/C any day of the week (Before anyone gets worked up that was meant as a joke but it is my opinion) I'm a bit biased since that's what I play but it really depends on the type of sound you're after.
Listen to a bunch of different Irish box players and you'll start to hear the differences in the sound of the two systems. Great players play B/C and likewise for C#/D. Just go by the ones you like most and emulate them...that's what I did.
John Williams (who can play systems both without any trouble) once explained the essential difference between the two to me by saying that C#/D is more of the "John Wayne/Cowboy" style of playing...more wild and rough around the edges and B/C is more slick and polished. I thought that was a great image and it seems pretty accurate to me.
box or concertina, b/c or c#/d
box or concertina, b/c or c#/d
Playing mainly scandinavian folk music on the box until now, but later more and more celtic, I seriously consider to buy a "irish" box or concertina when I visit Ireland this summer. The boxes I use now are tuned in a/d and g/c and I think that the b/c, c#/d etc. boxes are more suited for the celtic music.
Here are some questions that I hope some will give me an answer to
Box -
b/c, c#/d or other tunings, what shall I choose? (I've played box in six years, but as said little celtc)
What kind of box? (saltarelle, soprani etc)
What's the price?, used or new?
I am sure I get a lot of different answers about this, but I am open for all advice.
Then some question about the anglo concertina
- I've noticed that a lot of box players also plays the concertina.
How similar is these instruments? Is it easier to learn the concertina with a box background?
- Then what kind of tuning shall I choose and what kind of concertina? (totally new to the instrument)
# Posted on June 20th 2006 by TradLad
Re: box or concertina, b/c or c#/d
b/c seem to be the main box these days although a substantial minority use C#/D. There are still a number of highly capable players who use the D/G box. I think it's more which you think sounds best. Find box players you like the sound of and find out which system they use. Each system has advantages and disadvantages and produces it's own style.
Personally, I don't rate Salterelles as much as Castagnaris and Paolo Soprani aren't the same company they were in the past (another company bought their trade name/mark). For a decent new box you're talking at least £1000 - £2000 depending on spec. Second hand boxes - you won't get them much cheaper than new. With any instrument get your hands on as many makes and models as you can and see what takes your fancy - even with the top quality boxes there are differences in tone and playability.
Transferring box skills to the anglo concertina isn't as easy as you might think. You've already got the hang of the way the scales work so playing a single melody line shouldn't be too difficult; but apart from that, if you want to use the concertina to its full potential, it is a different instrument that you'll have to learn almost from scratch.
Good(ish) starter concertinas (with accordian reeds) can be got from about £200 -300. Good quality new boxes fall into two main categories accordion reeded (£1000+) or concertina reeded (£3000?) which will be hand made to order probably. A good alternative is to get an old (generally pre WW2) English made box such as Lachenal, Wheatstone, Crabb (who continued to the 1970s) and Jeffries. Your probably talking at least £800 for a refurbished bottom of the range Lachenal to £3000+ for a Jeffries.
See:
http://www.concertina.net/
http://www.melodeon.net/index.html
both have forums where you can ask for more info if required and links to manufacturers
http://www.the-music-room.com/ for latest (UK prices)
http://www.concertina.co.uk/ for possibly the worlds main dealer in old concertinas (and a v. good bloke!)
# Posted on June 20th 2006 by Compo
Re: box or concertina, b/c or c#/d
Concertinas are usually G/C, some G/D and Bb/Eb. G/C are by far the most common so the easiest to get hold of. G/Ds are a bit easier to play the main keys of G, D and related minors and the Bb/Eb are probably better for singing along with.
I also forgot to say that for a 'chromatic' concertina you'll want at least 30 buttons.
# Posted on June 20th 2006 by Compo
Re: box or concertina, b/c or c#/d
You should check some concertina players websites out. If you contcat them directly they will probably give you some info on it. Here are there web address's
www.providence-trad.com/morconcertina/morecd.html -
...Micheal O' Raghallaigh on Concertina
www.padraigrynne.com Pádraig Rynnes website
www.slide.ie/ Aogain Lynch Band.
There are loads more but there are e mail addresses on there that can probably help you to contact them. As far as I know they all have Suttner concertinas and have their own unique types of tuning systems.
Tony O Connel is another great one if you can find a contact for him.
Suttner Concertinas: Anglo and english concertinas, handmade to the highest standards according to the historical models of Wheatstone and Jeffries. This is worth a look too.
www.suttnerconcertinas.com/
Hope this helps.
# Posted on June 20th 2006 by eurbanjo
Re: box or concertina, b/c or c#/d
Or, something I've considered but done nothing about. Get a "cheap" 20 button anglo and re-reed it to B/C or C#D.
# Posted on June 20th 2006 by Compo
Re: box or concertina, b/c or c#/d
I suggest that you buy an Irish Dancemaster accordion.... you can find them at http://www.irishdancemaster.com/accordion.html . Low price, but wonderful sound, and the action is smooth as silk. I think you should get a box, because I much prefer the sound of a box to that of a concertina, plus it's easier to play.
Tuning-wise, I reccomend B/C-it's more popular, it conveniently has all the naturals on one row and all the accidentals on the other. Only get a C#/D if you REALLY want to spend a lot of time on just one row.
# Posted on June 20th 2006 by Zazzaliss
Re: box or concertina, b/c or c#/d
your best bet is probably not to go to ireland hoping for a concertina, although you could be lucky. there are 4 general categories of concertinas: cheap mass produced, handmade concertinas with accordian reeds, handmade concertinas with concertina reeds, and vintage concertinas.
for cheap, mass produced concertinas, the only brand currently worth purchasing is a stagi. you can purchase one from http://www.buttonbox.com . you could probably find them in stores in ireland, but the button box retunes and adjusts every new instrument, so it would be better to have it retuned and adjusted for free before you get it, rather than for a price afterwards. i have a stagi and have enjoyed it a lot. i have 2 concertinas on order, however, and have definitely outgrown the stagi.
if you are willing to pay around $1,500 (USD), then you could go with an accordian reeded, hand made concertina. i have an edgley on order (http://www.concertinas.ca/ ), and it took me a while to tell the difference between it and a much more expensive model (i found that difference, and in 3 years, that other one will be ready and i will have both). you could also go with a tedrow concertina ( http://hmi.homewood.net/ ). they are good concertinas, but i fell in love with the edgley. someday when i have the money, i'm tempted to buy a tedrow miniature conertina. the button box also makes their own concertinas, as well as selling other manufactures. i have never played a morse ( http://buttonbox.com/morse.html ) but i have only heard good things about them.
concertina reeded, handmade concertinas are more expensive and have wait of anywhere from 2 to 4 years. suttner has already been mentioned. i have a carroll on order ( http://carrollconcertinas.com ). both are amazing concertinas, and you couldnt go wrong with either of them. if you were interested in shelling out $5,000 (USD... i doubt you would be, if you've never played a concertina), i know someone who has a suttner a-2 for sale. i have never played any of the other high level makers, and dont know their websites off the top of my head. many makers do not have websites, like geoff crabb.
vintage concertinas have already been discussed, so i wont be redundant.
# Posted on June 20th 2006 by daiv
Re: box or concertina, b/c or c#/d
Bite the bullet - get a Castagnari Din II or Din III, tuned B/C. If you're really committed to learning the Irish box, this is where you'll end up anyway. Entry and intermedaite level instruments will just waste your time and money.
Good luck
MYBC
# Posted on June 20th 2006 by millionyears_bc
Re: box or concertina, b/c or c#/d
I decided that I wanted to play the box, so earlier this year I took the (financial) plunge and bought a used Cairdin Mini-Deluxe. They go new for $2970 USD, but I got mine for only $1800, which I thought was a deal. It needed some tweaks but I couldn't be happier with it. Whatever you do, don't buy a cheap instrument or you'll only discourage yourself. Plus, you'll just have to write off a cheap box as a a loss because the resale value is so low.
You mentioned that you're already a box player on different systems, so there's no real "trying out" period to see if you can handle an accordion, no reason to buy something so cheap.
# Posted on June 20th 2006 by gravelwalks
Re: box or concertina, b/c or c#/d
tanks for all this
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by TradLad
Re: box or concertina, b/c or c#/d
I prefer the sound of a button accordion to concertina. What I've been doing lately is listening to different recordings of people playing button accordions and finding out what kind they play. I've come to the conclusion that I like a swing tuned, b/c, stepped keyboard castagnari!
# Posted on June 25th 2006 by wendyann
Re: box or concertina, b/c or c#/d
I disagree with all of you...C#/D kicks all hell out of B/C any day of the week
(Before anyone gets worked up that was meant as a joke but it is my opinion) I'm a bit biased since that's what I play but it really depends on the type of sound you're after.
Listen to a bunch of different Irish box players and you'll start to hear the differences in the sound of the two systems. Great players play B/C and likewise for C#/D. Just go by the ones you like most and emulate them...that's what I did.
John Williams (who can play systems both without any trouble) once explained the essential difference between the two to me by saying that C#/D is more of the "John Wayne/Cowboy" style of playing...more wild and rough around the edges and B/C is more slick and polished. I thought that was a great image and it seems pretty accurate to me.
# Posted on June 27th 2006 by dtb