This is kinda funny because last week I printed out some sheet music for a friend.
Last night I was listening to her play the tune. "Dandy Dinny Cronins"
She says . . .
"Random, do you need the music."
"No thanks. I'll just listen."
She was a bit shocked that I would not even look at the sheet. But then she was also handing it to someone who does not even read sheet music.
That's all.
All ear tor the next 4 weeks.
I'll let you know how it goes.
28 days is a good amount of time to dedicate to something. So we're here to support you
I used to actively practice listening. I have about 3000 tracks of Irish trad on the mp3 player in my car. I put it on random, which meant that I was hearing tunes that I had no idea what they were. I would actively listen to the shape of the melody the first time through the A and B parts, and then try to lilt them the second time through to see how well I listened.
Of course, you should keep actively listening while you're lilting, to find the bits that you didn't learn the first time through. If you do that as an exercise, you get much much better at it. Combine that with some proficiency with your instrument, and you're well on your way to learning and retaining tunes very quickly.
The # 1 reason for me going off the sheet, for the next 4 weeks,
is so I won't be distracted from listening to what each person is playing. Paper music tends to leave an indelible mark. By listening I can better hear the nuances & variations. Just a side note;I think you actually can represent the tunes with notation . . . but . . .I won't complete the but. I will just finish by saying your ears are superior to your eyes when it comes to hearing. tt is good to trust your ears. My shocked friend does not trust her ears. That puzzles me because she has been playing music longer than me & I believe she really does hear every bit.
She notices every one of my mistakes.
It would be interesting for you to see if you can never look at the dots for the tunes you learn in this month of yours. Then in a year or so, compare what you feel about playing these tunes with what you feel about playing tunes you have read.
And see if you can get your friend to try just one tune, a simple one, without the paper. Teach it to them slowly, phrase by phrase
michael don't be dense.
She does play by ear.
She gets the tunes from listening & getting them in her head THEN she rushes to the sheet for confirmation. Unfortunately she is a product of the paradigm of supreme skepticism.
She simply does not trust her ears. Her ears are as good as most here. She's got the ability & only needs to realize that fact.
Thanks michael just please try to remember people who are paper trained do have ears.
One night she ased for the paper of 'The Dark Isle" I said here. I will just play it & you join in. She did without a problem. I let here go that night with the tune only ~ NO PAPER.
You know what she did?
At the next session she had a copy. A copy of a tune she had already learned by ear.
Odd ~ wouldn't you say?
I can do the comparison now, with tunes for which I have never looked at the dots. For most tunes I think it makes little difference. I simply do not take the sheet literally. Still, the visual reference, for tunes i have read, will sometimes constrict how I feel a tune should go. I hope by using no paper that I will be forced to listen more closely to what each player is doing (including myself)
I don't find it overly odd that she would do that. I don't really read music, but when I was starting out, I used to try to make sure that I had ABC files that were exactly the same as the setting of a tune that I had learned (by ear). I needed the reference, because I didn't trust my brain to remember "how the tune went". In just a few short years, though, I started relying more on my brain, and less on the "artificial memory".
But a real breakthrough in my playing came when I stopped thinking of a tune as having a specific line of notes in it. As soon as I let go of individual notes, I stopped being annoyed by people that had different settings of a tune than I do. The shape of the melody, and ultimately where the tune is "going", is much more important than what notes are in it. When you rely on your brain for remembering the contour of the tune, it opens up the world to you. For instance, you can find some wonderful variations to express the tune in a different way, play the tune in different keys, and change what you're playing on the fly to more match other people that you're playing with.
I'm not saying that I'm a master of any of these things yet, but it was a wonderful discovery that really made a difference in my playing.
To add to my last post a bit, I do still generally learn a *specific* line of notes when I learn a tune. But I don't stay attached to those notes. So when I'm playing a tune, it feels more like I am letting the music flow through me, instead of making my fingers play individual notes. So variations appear in the form of ornamentation, rhythmic accent, and melody depending on what I am feeling at the moment that the music is flowing through me.
We have one player who definitely letting the music flow through him. We say he has the best ear in town. He can nail a tune but he also does some splendid variations.
He s a good trad player & is willing to draw on other trad ~ itions. Once I totally spaced on a tune. Right about that time he grabbed the chair next to me. So I am thinking, " this is great I'll just follow Dave." Well, things do not always turn out the way you plan. I started following him but he was doing all kinds of variations. To the point that I was completely lost. I just kicked back & enjoyed listening.
Last night was our session & I mostly listened. Once home though I almost never stopped playing.
This is halfway into my 4 weeks of not looking at 1 note of sheet music. Thank you Michael; I am following up on your comment about phrasing. When I ;listen to someone else play I pay attention to their phrasing. Our sessioneer who has the best ear also has beautiful phrasing. That says it all. With so many different rhythms, tempos, keys, modulations . . . still every tune tells its' unique story (melody) by the way it is phrased.
Last night was our session & I mostly listened. Once home though I almost never stopped playing.
This is halfway into my 4 weeks of not looking at 1 note of sheet music. Thank you Michael; I am following up on your comment about phrasing. When I ;listen to someone else play I pay attention to their phrasing. Our sessioneer who has the best ear also has beautiful phrasing. That says it all. With so many different rhythms, tempos, keys, modulations . . . still every tune tells its' unique story (melody) by the way it is phrased.
Or back to the music pad?
Last night was 4 weeks since I declared I will not peek at a single 'dot' All in all a good experience. The books will stay on their shelves ~ for a while. Eventually I will pull them out. For now i wish to be immersed in the aural tradition.
Even though, prior to this 4 weeks, I have learnt tunes by ear & on the fly . . . this is different . . . after session I'm not searching my books or logging on thesession to get a few abc's. Instead I am listening, & hoping to get the tune in my head. I am better able to recall & play about 1/3 of the tunes from session. These are not just our standards Some are new & some & some are played rarely.
Cheers ;)
..
I originally directed this at Michael. I am now directing it at myself.
"Thanks michael just please try to remember people who are paper trained do have ears."
Yes, the ydo have ears, but it's amazing how many people forget to use their ears when the dots are in front of them. They forget to use the dots to get the ***sound*** into their heads.
Random, up above you said that your friend plays "most" tunes from memory at a session. Does that mean she sometimes uses sheet music at a session? I'm trying to understand what sort of session this is, and how comfortable you and your mates really are playing by heart, without the dots. I don't mean to insinuate anything here--just hoping to get a clearer sense of how this session operates.
Okay, that helps. See, playing from sheet music just doesn't work in a full-tilt session. It can't be done without interfering with the flow and fluency of the music. So these people may *think* they're sessioning, but they're not, really. And they won't, not until they wean themselves from the dots.
Consider this Will.
She may have dots nearby, she may even be looking at it (usually her eyes are closed) she may even think she is reading the music. But I do know this. She cannot see the dots without her glasses. I have only once (briefly) don these elusive spectacles.
No, I haven't heard any of them play. But if your friend really isn't reading the dots, then she's playing by heart. That's fine. But you seem to be saying that other people ***are*** reading the dots while they play. If so, that's NOT sessioning. It just doesn't work that way in this music. It might be fine for a swing band or a classical ensemble, but not for Irish trad.
There's also a distinction to be made between playing one's instrument with skill and talent, and sessioning with skill and talent. Your friend may be an excellent fiddle player yet still not be very experienced with seat-of-the-pants sessions. I don't know--I'm just trying to understand. And it keeps sounding to me like this session isn't a full-tilt session.
Random, I'm sorry if I'm getting your defenses up--that isn't my intent. If anything, I'm simply agreeing with what you already know and recognize. Up this thread a ways, you wrote this:
"The # 1 reason for me going off the sheet, for the next 4 weeks, is so I won't be distracted from listening to what each person is playing. Paper music tends to leave an indelible mark. By listening I can better hear the nuances & variations. Just a side note;I think you actually can represent the tunes with notation . . . but . . .I won't complete the but. I will just finish by saying your ears are superior to your eyes when it comes to hearing. tt is good to trust your ears. My shocked friend does not trust her ears. That puzzles me because she has been playing music longer than me & I believe she really does hear every bit."
And until your friend and other session mates start trusting their ears, they won't really be sessioning.
Thats something i have never seen !! people reading dots at a session! ye gods what will they think of next!? the laptop, connected to the session tune data base
I just cant picture it.... still takes all sorts to make the world eh...
Let me repeat; some of my session mates play by ear exclusiely. some can read music but play without. & some use sheet music to some extent but not in session, & finally 2 players are wholly dependent on sheet music.
Thank you Will for the feedback. My response was to ionannas.
Will, if you do catch this, my friend sometimes forgets herself & plays as good as anyone I have heard in a full - tilt session. True ~ she does not trust her ears. Usually! I love it when she relaxes, loses all self consciousness & makes my ears happy. That's the ticket.
The problem with playing accordion by ear is that when you're playing the melody with your left ear, it's impossible to play the basses with your right ear. Try it sometime.
So you post a zen message on an old thread with me being the only one to read it; sitting here thinking, 'duh - uh -h-h-h how DO you do that?'
Thamks Gary for yet another one of life's many mysteries.
28 days to better ears
28 days to better ears
This is kinda funny because last week I printed out some sheet music for a friend.
Last night I was listening to her play the tune. "Dandy Dinny Cronins"
She says . . .
"Random, do you need the music."
"No thanks. I'll just listen."
She was a bit shocked that I would not even look at the sheet. But then she was also handing it to someone who does not even read sheet music.
That's all.
All ear tor the next 4 weeks.
I'll let you know how it goes.
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: 28 days to better ears
Dang pushers... Also there may be a local chapter of SMA in your area...
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by McCracken
Re: 28 days to better ears
"Little jackie paper loved that rascal puff" ~
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: 28 days to better ears
Good on you random_notes.
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: 28 days to better ears
It's good to stay away from paper. Reminds me of that silly joke about a Wanted poster:
REWARD offered for the arrest of the Paper Kid. He's got a brown paper shirt, paper jeans, a paper hat and paper shoes. Wanted for: Rustling.
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: 28 days to better ears
[Snorting coffee out of nose] Good one, Mark.
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by Batlady
Re: 28 days to better ears
Yeah, I enjoyed that too Batlady...
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: 28 days to better ears
The Paper Kid, not by any chance also known as Russell - last seen hiding under a pile of leaves?
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by john knoss
Re: 28 days to better ears
28 days is a good amount of time to dedicate to something. So we're here to support you
I used to actively practice listening. I have about 3000 tracks of Irish trad on the mp3 player in my car. I put it on random, which meant that I was hearing tunes that I had no idea what they were. I would actively listen to the shape of the melody the first time through the A and B parts, and then try to lilt them the second time through to see how well I listened.
Of course, you should keep actively listening while you're lilting, to find the bits that you didn't learn the first time through. If you do that as an exercise, you get much much better at it. Combine that with some proficiency with your instrument, and you're well on your way to learning and retaining tunes very quickly.
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by Reverend
Re: 28 days to better ears
The # 1 reason for me going off the sheet, for the next 4 weeks,
is so I won't be distracted from listening to what each person is playing. Paper music tends to leave an indelible mark. By listening I can better hear the nuances & variations. Just a side note;I think you actually can represent the tunes with notation . . . but . . .I won't complete the but. I will just finish by saying your ears are superior to your eyes when it comes to hearing. tt is good to trust your ears. My shocked friend does not trust her ears. That puzzles me because she has been playing music longer than me & I believe she really does hear every bit.
She notices every one of my mistakes.
# Posted on July 9th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: 28 days to better ears
When I saw the title of the thread I thought it was about cosmetic surgery.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by dafydd
Re: 28 days to better ears
I thought it was instructions on raising grain for biofuel.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by feardearg
Re: 28 days to better ears
It would be interesting for you to see if you can never look at the dots for the tunes you learn in this month of yours. Then in a year or so, compare what you feel about playing these tunes with what you feel about playing tunes you have read.
And see if you can get your friend to try just one tune, a simple one, without the paper. Teach it to them slowly, phrase by phrase
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: 28 days to better ears
michael don't be dense.
She does play by ear.
She gets the tunes from listening & getting them in her head THEN she rushes to the sheet for confirmation. Unfortunately she is a product of the paradigm of supreme skepticism.
She simply does not trust her ears. Her ears are as good as most here. She's got the ability & only needs to realize that fact.
Thanks michael just please try to remember people who are paper trained do have ears.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Random_notes
^* It's an addiction
One night she ased for the paper of 'The Dark Isle" I said here. I will just play it & you join in. She did without a problem. I let here go that night with the tune only ~ NO PAPER.
You know what she did?
At the next session she had a copy. A copy of a tune she had already learned by ear.
Odd ~ wouldn't you say?
Cheers!.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Random_notes
Ased?
one night se 'asked' for dark isle dotage . . .
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Random_notes
Last time
she asked
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: 28 days to better ears
I can do the comparison now, with tunes for which I have never looked at the dots. For most tunes I think it makes little difference. I simply do not take the sheet literally. Still, the visual reference, for tunes i have read, will sometimes constrict how I feel a tune should go. I hope by using no paper that I will be forced to listen more closely to what each player is doing (including myself)
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: 28 days to better ears
>> Odd ~ wouldn't you say?
I don't find it overly odd that she would do that. I don't really read music, but when I was starting out, I used to try to make sure that I had ABC files that were exactly the same as the setting of a tune that I had learned (by ear). I needed the reference, because I didn't trust my brain to remember "how the tune went". In just a few short years, though, I started relying more on my brain, and less on the "artificial memory".
But a real breakthrough in my playing came when I stopped thinking of a tune as having a specific line of notes in it. As soon as I let go of individual notes, I stopped being annoyed by people that had different settings of a tune than I do. The shape of the melody, and ultimately where the tune is "going", is much more important than what notes are in it. When you rely on your brain for remembering the contour of the tune, it opens up the world to you. For instance, you can find some wonderful variations to express the tune in a different way, play the tune in different keys, and change what you're playing on the fly to more match other people that you're playing with.
I'm not saying that I'm a master of any of these things yet, but it was a wonderful discovery that really made a difference in my playing.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Reverend
Re: 28 days to better ears
To add to my last post a bit, I do still generally learn a *specific* line of notes when I learn a tune. But I don't stay attached to those notes. So when I'm playing a tune, it feels more like I am letting the music flow through me, instead of making my fingers play individual notes. So variations appear in the form of ornamentation, rhythmic accent, and melody depending on what I am feeling at the moment that the music is flowing through me.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Reverend
Re: 28 days to better ears
God, reading back through this makes me sound like some hippy-dippy existentialist or something... This stuff is difficult to put into words.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Reverend
Re: 28 days to better ears
Reverend, hippy-dippy or not, I think you have hit on a good way to think about playing trad.
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: 28 days to better ears
True that, you nailed it Rev!
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Letting the music flow
We have one player who definitely letting the music flow through him. We say he has the best ear in town. He can nail a tune but he also does some splendid variations.
He s a good trad player & is willing to draw on other trad ~ itions. Once I totally spaced on a tune. Right about that time he grabbed the chair next to me. So I am thinking, " this is great I'll just follow Dave." Well, things do not always turn out the way you plan. I started following him but he was doing all kinds of variations. To the point that I was completely lost. I just kicked back & enjoyed listening.
# Posted on July 11th 2008 by Random_notes
14 of 28 days & I'm getting an earful
Last night was our session & I mostly listened. Once home though I almost never stopped playing.
This is halfway into my 4 weeks of not looking at 1 note of sheet music. Thank you Michael; I am following up on your comment about phrasing. When I ;listen to someone else play I pay attention to their phrasing. Our sessioneer who has the best ear also has beautiful phrasing. That says it all. With so many different rhythms, tempos, keys, modulations . . . still every tune tells its' unique story (melody) by the way it is phrased.
# Posted on July 23rd 2008 by Random_notes
14 of 28 days & I'm getting an earful
Last night was our session & I mostly listened. Once home though I almost never stopped playing.
This is halfway into my 4 weeks of not looking at 1 note of sheet music. Thank you Michael; I am following up on your comment about phrasing. When I ;listen to someone else play I pay attention to their phrasing. Our sessioneer who has the best ear also has beautiful phrasing. That says it all. With so many different rhythms, tempos, keys, modulations . . . still every tune tells its' unique story (melody) by the way it is phrased.
# Posted on July 23rd 2008 by Random_notes
28 days ~ better ears?
Or back to the music pad?
Last night was 4 weeks since I declared I will not peek at a single 'dot' All in all a good experience. The books will stay on their shelves ~ for a while. Eventually I will pull them out. For now i wish to be immersed in the aural tradition.
Even though, prior to this 4 weeks, I have learnt tunes by ear & on the fly . . . this is different . . . after session I'm not searching my books or logging on thesession to get a few abc's. Instead I am listening, & hoping to get the tune in my head. I am better able to recall & play about 1/3 of the tunes from session. These are not just our standards Some are new & some & some are played rarely.
Cheers ;)
..
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by Random_notes
*
just 1 "& some"
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: 28 days to better ears
Thanks for the updates, Random_notes! Well done!
# Posted on August 6th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Ears
I originally directed this at Michael. I am now directing it at myself.
"Thanks michael just please try to remember people who are paper trained do have ears."
# Posted on July 10th 2008 by Random_notes
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: 28 days to better ears
Yes, the ydo have ears, but it's amazing how many people forget to use their ears when the dots are in front of them. They forget to use the dots to get the ***sound*** into their heads.
Random, up above you said that your friend plays "most" tunes from memory at a session. Does that mean she sometimes uses sheet music at a session? I'm trying to understand what sort of session this is, and how comfortable you and your mates really are playing by heart, without the dots. I don't mean to insinuate anything here--just hoping to get a clearer sense of how this session operates.
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: 28 days to better ears
It is a mixed session. Some play by ear & some use sheet music. It usually depends on who shows up.
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: 28 days to better ears
Okay, that helps. See, playing from sheet music just doesn't work in a full-tilt session. It can't be done without interfering with the flow and fluency of the music. So these people may *think* they're sessioning, but they're not, really. And they won't, not until they wean themselves from the dots.
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: 28 days to better ears
I can tell you have not heard my friend play.
She can session allright.
;)
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: 28 days to better ears
Consider this Will.
She may have dots nearby, she may even be looking at it (usually her eyes are closed) she may even think she is reading the music. But I do know this. She cannot see the dots without her glasses. I have only once (briefly) don these elusive spectacles.
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by Random_notes
**
' seen her' don these elusive spectacles.
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: 28 days to better ears
No, I haven't heard any of them play. But if your friend really isn't reading the dots, then she's playing by heart. That's fine. But you seem to be saying that other people ***are*** reading the dots while they play. If so, that's NOT sessioning. It just doesn't work that way in this music. It might be fine for a swing band or a classical ensemble, but not for Irish trad.
There's also a distinction to be made between playing one's instrument with skill and talent, and sessioning with skill and talent. Your friend may be an excellent fiddle player yet still not be very experienced with seat-of-the-pants sessions. I don't know--I'm just trying to understand. And it keeps sounding to me like this session isn't a full-tilt session.
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: 28 days to better ears
Like I said ~ on a given night it depends on who shows up.
Peace
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: 28 days to better ears
Random, I'm sorry if I'm getting your defenses up--that isn't my intent. If anything, I'm simply agreeing with what you already know and recognize. Up this thread a ways, you wrote this:
"The # 1 reason for me going off the sheet, for the next 4 weeks, is so I won't be distracted from listening to what each person is playing. Paper music tends to leave an indelible mark. By listening I can better hear the nuances & variations. Just a side note;I think you actually can represent the tunes with notation . . . but . . .I won't complete the but. I will just finish by saying your ears are superior to your eyes when it comes to hearing. tt is good to trust your ears. My shocked friend does not trust her ears. That puzzles me because she has been playing music longer than me & I believe she really does hear every bit."
And until your friend and other session mates start trusting their ears, they won't really be sessioning.
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: 28 days to better ears
Thats something i have never seen !! people reading dots at a session! ye gods what will they think of next!? the laptop, connected to the session tune data base
I just cant picture it.... still takes all sorts to make the world eh...
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by Ionannas
28 days & then some
Let me repeat; some of my session mates play by ear exclusiely. some can read music but play without. & some use sheet music to some extent but not in session, & finally 2 players are wholly dependent on sheet music.
Thank you Will for the feedback. My response was to ionannas.
Will, if you do catch this, my friend sometimes forgets herself & plays as good as anyone I have heard in a full - tilt session. True ~ she does not trust her ears. Usually! I love it when she relaxes, loses all self consciousness & makes my ears happy. That's the ticket.
# Posted on September 12th 2008 by Random_notes
Note to Ionannas
I play by ear.
;)
# Posted on September 12th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: 28 days to better ears
The problem with playing accordion by ear is that when you're playing the melody with your left ear, it's impossible to play the basses with your right ear. Try it sometime.
# Posted on September 12th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Ground Control to Major Tom
So you post a zen message on an old thread with me being the only one to read it; sitting here thinking, 'duh - uh -h-h-h how DO you do that?'
Thamks Gary for yet another one of life's many mysteries.
# Posted on September 13th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: 28 days to better ears
Good one, Gary!
# Posted on September 13th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: 28 days to better ears
I'm sorry, but I don't agree, Gary. I think it's just a question of practice. One day, you too will get your head moving fast enough.
# Posted on September 13th 2008 by benhall.1