The listening to learn, learning to listen thread ~ great stuff. benhall 1 was discussing the old scales. I was hoping some of you might want to discuss 'old scales' used on wooden flutes. Especially the flutes which are not designed with an even - tempered scale.
It's not just old flutes. I play a Hammy Hamilton, circa 1999, and the low D is slightly flat so that you can really hammer it for that barking "hard D" that's so sought after by Irish fluters.
The two finger C nat tends to run a bit sharp, so for long-held c nats, I cross finger it.
Fiddlers deal with this stuff all the time. The pitch of the first finger, 2nd string B changes depending on whether you're playing in G/Em or Emaj or Amaj. It's a micro-tonal difference, but critical when playing doublestops or wanting that authentic old sound. Of course, fretted and fixed pitch instruments smother those subtleties, or the pitch sounds off, as though the fiddler is out of tune. In fact, it's the even-tempered instruments that are out.
Will, you play flute? Ah there is hope for this site after all.
I have to go to work now . . . if you are still there I have another question.
Someone directed me to "Bang your Frog on the Sofa" has anyone played this tune on the Uilleann pipes? Maybe it's just me but I believe it would sound good.
I tried that link ... but I ran out of patience before it loaded. Ho hum (that's a sigh at my own hopelessness).
Anyway, I imagine that site will do a good job of explaining the problems of intonation from a classical point of view. And we've talked before about just intonation, and even intonation and the rest. Trouble is, the old scales for trad aren't the same as just intonation (or whichever is the one that's supposed to be more 'natural' than the even-tempered version). There was a different system.
Martin t's mentioned it before (as have I, in fact), but one of the references on this would be the work of Dr Richard Henebry, around the turn of the 19th/20th centuries and the couple of decades after that.
Apparently the one to get hold of is "Irish Music: Being an Examination of the Matter of Scales, Modes, and Keys, with Practical Instructions and Examples for Players". I haven't read it, nor seen anything of it.
One day ... [sigh]
Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to Martin's thesis, which I think he promised us in about 3 - 5 years time.
Yes, the difference between just and equal temperament--that's what that link gets at. I just offered it as an example of the flexible intonation systems that fiddlers can use, if they're conscious of them.
I've always thought of Irish music as being micro tonal--lots of viable notes between the conventional notes of Western scales. (Yet another reason practicing scales is kind of silly for playing this music.)
lots of viable notes between the conventional ones ~ very nice. Thanks for all the good posts ben & will.
I just dropped by to catch up.
Later ~
Cheers!
It's natural for a fiddler when playing in the key of G (or a modal equivalent) to play the high B on the E string slightly flat so as to match in with a particular resonant harmonic from the open G string. Play it as a perfect fifth above the open E and it just won't sound right.
Old scales ~ old flutes
Old scales ~ old flutes
The listening to learn, learning to listen thread ~ great stuff. benhall 1 was discussing the old scales. I was hoping some of you might want to discuss 'old scales' used on wooden flutes. Especially the flutes which are not designed with an even - tempered scale.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Old scales ~ old flutes
It's not just old flutes. I play a Hammy Hamilton, circa 1999, and the low D is slightly flat so that you can really hammer it for that barking "hard D" that's so sought after by Irish fluters.
The two finger C nat tends to run a bit sharp, so for long-held c nats, I cross finger it.
Fiddlers deal with this stuff all the time. The pitch of the first finger, 2nd string B changes depending on whether you're playing in G/Em or Emaj or Amaj. It's a micro-tonal difference, but critical when playing doublestops or wanting that authentic old sound. Of course, fretted and fixed pitch instruments smother those subtleties, or the pitch sounds off, as though the fiddler is out of tune. In fact, it's the even-tempered instruments that are out.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Old scales ~ old flutes
This site (pardon the classical reference point) has an excellent demonstration of pitch being dependent on key/.mode: http://violinmasterclass.com/intonation.php
Good fluters make such adjustments through embouchure and perhaps a touch of rolling the flute in or out.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Old scales ~ old flutes
Will, you play flute? Ah there is hope for this site after all.
I have to go to work now . . . if you are still there I have another question.
Someone directed me to "Bang your Frog on the Sofa" has anyone played this tune on the Uilleann pipes? Maybe it's just me but I believe it would sound good.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Old scales ~ old flutes
Would work best (if at all) in Em. A friend of mine plays it on flute.
I'm still very much a beginner on flute, never enough time in the day to keep my embouchure up to snuff.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Old scales ~ old flutes
I tried that link ... but I ran out of patience before it loaded. Ho hum (that's a sigh at my own hopelessness).
Anyway, I imagine that site will do a good job of explaining the problems of intonation from a classical point of view. And we've talked before about just intonation, and even intonation and the rest. Trouble is, the old scales for trad aren't the same as just intonation (or whichever is the one that's supposed to be more 'natural' than the even-tempered version). There was a different system.
Martin t's mentioned it before (as have I, in fact), but one of the references on this would be the work of Dr Richard Henebry, around the turn of the 19th/20th centuries and the couple of decades after that.
Apparently the one to get hold of is "Irish Music: Being an Examination of the Matter of Scales, Modes, and Keys, with Practical Instructions and Examples for Players". I haven't read it, nor seen anything of it.
One day ... [sigh]
Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to Martin's thesis, which I think he promised us in about 3 - 5 years time.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Old scales ~ old flutes
Yes, the difference between just and equal temperament--that's what that link gets at. I just offered it as an example of the flexible intonation systems that fiddlers can use, if they're conscious of them.
I've always thought of Irish music as being micro tonal--lots of viable notes between the conventional notes of Western scales. (Yet another reason practicing scales is kind of silly for playing this music.)
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Old scales ~ old flutes
lots of viable notes between the conventional ones ~ very nice. Thanks for all the good posts ben & will.
I just dropped by to catch up.
Later ~
Cheers!
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Old scales ~ old flutes
I love how discussions on tuning and forms of intonation come up on this site so often...satisfies my music geekery :B
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by samiam590
Re: Old scales ~ old flutes
It's natural for a fiddler when playing in the key of G (or a modal equivalent) to play the high B on the E string slightly flat so as to match in with a particular resonant harmonic from the open G string. Play it as a perfect fifth above the open E and it just won't sound right.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by lazyhound