I hate that feeling too. Specially when I don't know the name of the tune. It irritats me when the tune name is, for example "Paddy Fahy's". There are several tunes under same names. I think every tune should have some kind of indentity. I love when one tune have couple of names, but problems starts when there are same names for couple of tunes.
Larsheen, I think your joke is spot on!
There was a time when I knew all the names, but it' s beginning to fade since I know more and more of them. Might be my age also, though ;)
my wife knows everything (but in a nice way.) we're church musicians and she tells me, "we're doing psalm 98 (or whatever #)" i reply, "what's that? (i can't remember stuff like that.)" so she tells me the first line and i say, "o, i know that song, i like it." and she says, "you're thinking of the other version this is this version." and she's right. yep, i hate that (but in a nice way.)
Yes I hate that also. Especially when you FINALLY find it on a CD and it's listed as "traditional". Just once I'd like to see a session when some one say let's play that traditional tune and every one jumps into the same tune. I don't care how traditional it is...........IT"S GOT A NAME.
Whew, thanks for listening. I'm gonna ago take my medication now.
Mary
I've given up trying to remember the names of all the tunes. I'm still waiting for the day when I can play all of them. When I can play maybe 75% of all tunes in any session I can walk into, THEN I'll worry about having a name for all of them.
Er, I can play a fair few tunes and long since gave up trying to remember their names or where I learned them. May just be old age kicking in though. And some people - Mick O'Connor springs to mind - seem not only to know X thousand tunes ... but multiple distinct versions thereof ... and where they came from. Scary.
My memory for names (tunes and people's) is so bad I don't call anyone by their name except close family. I don't mind not knowing the names and most of the tunes I play I picked up in sessions through osmosis. Even the ones that I start are 'that first set on that Kevin Crawford cd' or that tune I recorded on my camera in a session last year. It really dosn't bother me but other people can be a bit annoyed when asking for titles.
I've always known the names to all the tunes I play, and even some I haven't yet learned to play, but I can hardly remember people's names that are just acquaintances. (I remember my friends and family's names) But as far as tune names go; even though I know them all (except the one's that I haven't found names for yet) I don't have any kind of special or extraordinary memory.
I did give it a lot of thought though on account of having a reputation locally for knowing the names of all the tunes. People are always asking me, and even phoning me on occasion to play a tune into the phone and asking me for the name. (They call me "Dial-a-Tune".) What I concluded is that because I've always been the guy in the band putting together medleys and reminding my fellow musicians what the tunes and medleys are at gigs, it has necessitated knowing the names; otherwise I'd be like everyone else and wouldn't bother to burn them into the memory bank that contains the tune. As my repertoire grew it would take a little longer to remember some titles of tunes I hadn’t thought of for a while, but I would always manage to unearth it eventually.
There are complicating factors that give me a disadvantage at sessions though. When a tune comes up that I haven’t played for a long time, I have trouble playing it until, 1) I remember the title, and 2) I remember whether I learned it on concertina or flute. Until I remember these two things it feels awkward to play. If you don’t bother with attaching the name to the memory of the tune -- you can just play along with ease… and when someone asks you for the name… you just shrug – that’s so much easier.
this is ridiculous. and one of my bugbears. You think the essence of a tune tune is in its name? The essence of a tune is it's melody. Tunes are tiny abstract notions and their names are merely useful, if sometimes amusing appendages. Where does it come from? The answer to this can be interesting and amusing, even worth knowing. But bear in mind that it has no relevance what so ever to the notes.
I know what you mean Jack, i used to have that problem too, So I decided to give up tune names. And now as you say - I just shrug my shoulders and play along and it is so much easier.
I hardly recognise a tune on Dows list and we play together the whole time when I'm not away (obiously)
Obviously MG, Jack realises that the "essence" of the tune in not in a name - uh duh!
God I missed this!
It's happened to me before. I was given the notes to the Dunmore Lasses but without a name. It took me ages to find out but I eventually did a few weeks ago by fluke while searching tunes on this website.
I like that. There's a thing about the intuitive knowledge of a tunes you learn by osmosis. You have a lovely broad sweep ofthem rather than step by step. Tunes like this may not come to mind when you are leading sets but, oh, the beauty of the relaxed freedom of playing them when they turn up. It's the essence of relaxation in session playing. I love it to bits
Names aren't essential for playing the music, and they are a double edged sword, for the reasons that TWBAEM touches on above. But names are fun, and part of what makes Irish music irish. What is the difference between the Irish 'Paddy Ryan's Dream' and the Scottish 'Miss Lyle's' - nothing notewise really, just the name and a different feel to the playing of the tune ... (I always suspected that one of the reasons Scottish music is not as widely played as Irish is that there is less interest in a canon of tunes that includes such large numbers of 'Miss ...'s', 'Lord ....'s', The Earl od ....'s' - compared to glorious names like 'the Floating Crowbar', 'Tell Her I Am', or 'When Sick Is It Tea that You Want")
Names help you place tunes within the tradition, particularly if the composer/namer is known. If music is social intercourse and a form of communication, the names of tunes are part of that as well. Even the fact that a tune is Gan ainm - that becomes part of the game as well. It's like saying that the novel 'The Tin Drum' would be no different if it had no title. This is true, but the label is useful, and also coveys something in addition to the novel itself that the author thought worth conveying. When Junior Crehan called his tune 'Poll An Mhadra Uisce' (spelling?), that's what he called it, not 'Gan ainm'. Maybe in the grand scheme of things this doesn't matter, but in terms of retaining all the nuances of the tradition, maybe it does matter a bit.
Names are one way of remembering a tune. Memory, I suspect, is a multi stranded function – the more connections we make the stronger it is. Like word association or any other kind of mnemonic device, a colorful name, though arbitrary, is one more way to store the note sequence.
I always had a devil of a time remembering the name of the groundcover beneath the trees out back, till I pictured elephants rolling around in the foliage. I’ve been able to remember pachysandra since then.
Names are nice to have if you’re looking for it on a recording.
And then a perverse nutter/genius like Paddy Fahy throws a monkey-wrench into the works.
Nothing in what I said described the names as being "the essence of a tune" so I'll assume Mr. Gill was addressing someone else. The only thing relevant in tune names is that they simply put an identifying mark on the tune so you can catalogue them if you like. Sometimes the name speaks to the tune’s origin and history, but it’s far from having anything to do with it’s essence.
I can sit down and say I'm going to play such-and-such and then play it.... now if I sit down and play a bunch of tunes in a row, afterwards I can't remember any of them. I hate that.
I am not talking about names actually. More of not remembering where I heard the tune before. Such as if I am listening in a session and I hear a tune that I have heard before but don't know what it is, as in I can't remember where I heard it. Most of the time I don't know the names of the tunes other people are playing and some times I might know them as track 4 second tune in set on (insert name and band here) album.
Now, what I really hate is when you’re mixing cement, and the shovel scrapes along the bottom of the wheel-barrow. I hate that. Like fingernails on chalkboard. Dang, got the shivers just thinking about it.
Mr. P. Button said "...When a tune comes up that I haven’t played for a long time, I have trouble playing it until, 1) I remember the title, and 2) I remember whether I learned it on concertina or flute. Until I remember these two things it feels awkward to play. "
This is my experience, too. If I can't remember the title, I wonder if I know the tune or not and panic as I approach the B part. I play a lot better when I can put the name on it. Strange, I admit.
When I first started to play, I tried to imagine how some tunes got their name. Was "riding on a load of Hay" written on a cart at sunset after a hard day of harvest? How does "Banshee" reflect the tune composers concept of that creature? Also, I look on my map of Ireland to locate the refered to spot or google the name to see if photos come up to give me a feel for the tune.
Now I use a list of titles of tunes I know to remember them. I am afraid if I can't name them, I will forget them
Don't You Hate it When...You make a light, friendly joke about something, somewhere, or someone, amazed at how clever and humoruous you are, and somebody responds, "yeah, everyone says that".
Michael, you know how I like to pick on Jack but today I have to agree with him that he never said or even implied that the essence of a tune is in the name. Look, you can go round in your life and make friends with a lot of people and never bother learning anyone's name; obviously the essence of a human being is in the way they are - their personality. But things would get confusing pretty quickly if nobody had a name. Human beings have named things since the beginning of time and they've done so for a reason. It's the same with tunes. But think about it, there are so many tunes in the Irish repertoire that it'd become a bit difficult if nobody attached names to any of the tunes. The names are there for a reason and that's simply as a label and sometimes as a bit of harmless fun. So, to have a bugbear about people going "wow that name is so deep and meaningful" is understandable, and I'm with you on that one, but to have something against people who like to remember names or like to use names - frankly that's silly and pointless and you're wasting your energy having that bugbear. Should we think any less of you because you happen to know the name of the tune that goes |A2FA A2dB|A2FA BE~E2|A2FA A2Bd|egfd ecdB|... (or however it goes)?
Dow, you make an excellent point. For whatever reason I think Michael just likes to disagree with people. Of course the essence of a tune is not in the name, but to have a name helps some people remember. Lets think if no tunes had names some players would attach names to them anyway. Yes, I agree that a name is not important but not everybody else is that way, why does it matter if they think differently?
Maybe they could have a registered number - then they could be barcoded. Then the scanner in the middle of the table could pick it up and flash the name of the current key on the In-Pub Session Display Unit, and if it wasn't being played in the prescribed key, a flashing red circle would come up with the official key in the middle, and keep flashing till the offenders changed to the licenced key. This would fit in well with the spirit of the Brave New Entertainments Licences.
Tune titles have their obvious reasons for being there, and there's nothing wrong with knowing them, but I'm always amazed that there are people who tout the fact that they don't know any of the names as though it's some sort of badge of authenticity. Complete and utter poppycock!
This is a hideous generalization, so shoot me down in flames, stamp on my head, tell me I'm inauthentic, whatever. But IMHO the people who know the fewest names know the most tunes, play them well ... and know *all* the intros of however many hundreds or thousands they play. That way they can stitch together or extend sets on the fly very easily.
"Yes, I agree that a name is not important but not everybody else is that way, why does it matter if they think differently?"
It doesn't really, but it isn't a prime example of thinking well.
"Like they can't have an identity without a name"
I really hate when this happens, but it does now and again anyway.
I have to agree with Michael here. Orson too I guess.
The identity of a tune is not its name. It's what it *sounds like.*
The sole function of a name is to allow something to be *talked about.* It is an identifier, but it is not its identity. A cow is a cow even if you don't know it's a "cow."
So it might be a vache . . . even if Jim doesn't understand that.
And just in case anyone out there read the book hoping to find out, the name of the rose is . . . rose.
And a rose is simply too busy being a rose to know what arbitrary naming conventions are attached to it.
And so the most accurate identifier of a traditional tune, in fact the only accurate identifier of a traditional is:
I think Orson's generalization doesn't give enough credit to our brains. I know most of the names to the thousand or so tunes I can play, and I can access them that way--by thinking of their names. But when linking tunes on the fly in a session, I rarely think of their names--I just go where the sounds lead me. Sometimes the name doesn't come to me until I'm into the third time around, sometimes it doesn't come until the end of the set and someone asks, "What was that tune after the one after Jug of Punch?" (And in those instances, it sometimes takes me a minute or two to dredge up the name.)
In short, knowing the names doesn't have to get in the way of playing the tunes.
And plenty of tune hounds with thousands of tunes in their repertoire have names for most of them. Look at Paddy O'Brien. I've found the same to hold true for players like Liz Carroll, Mick Moloney, Seamus Egan, Mike and Mary Rafferty, etc.
Of course, it's also completely common and generally accepted practice to name the tune after your source (rather than remembering the name that might have come with it), which is why there are so many Tommy Peoples' reels, and why a tune like Tom Hackett's Dream is also known as Owen Hackett's (after the composer), Paddy Gavin's (after a player who helped popularize it), and Carmel Doyle's (after someone's teacher).
My guess is that whether you remember names of tunes or not depends on how strong the verbal wiring in your brain is and whether the names are important to you or not. Lots of things influence the latter aspect--how you learn your tunes, whether you use printed collections, how much time you spend cruising tune lists and databases, etc.
Also, some people are just fascinated by Nomenclature. Read Last Nights Fun by Ciaran Carson, or just have a glance at Aidan Crossey's Pay The Reckoning site - where he compiles lists of names that don't yet have tunes attached to them ....
I usually use the snippet method, i.e. suggesting tunes by playing snippets, rather than names when I'm at a session. If someone says, "Do you have a name for it?" I sometimes have to think about it a bit, but having the name is supplemental at best for the purpose of finding a source for the tune or remembering what to ask for.
Orson writes: “IMHO the people who know the fewest names know the most tunes, play them well ... and know *all* the intros of however many hundreds or thousands they play. That way they can stitch together or extend sets on the fly very easily.”
This is a fallacy; it goes both ways… I’ve known people who know tons of tunes and all the names and can “stitch together or extend sets on the fly very easily.” I’ve also known people who know tons of tunes (but not the names) who are able to follow along with every tune but seem to always play the same tunes when they’re the ones starting them. It just depends on what you’re used to and how you’ve established your memory – not how many tune names you do or don’t know.
Oh, I don't think it's a fallacy, it's just one way of looking at it. Why slam up against one end of the spectrum or the other? It all works, one way or another.
I hate it when I've practiced a bunch of tunes then go to a jam session. When asked for a tune I can name the tune but can't remember for the life of me the first notes to get it started. Luckly though there's a wonderful lady who not only knows all the tunes but can start 'em. It's been a game for us to have her play the first couple of notes to see who jumps on the tune first. We call that knowing "teflon" tunes. We know them but they don't stick.
What is nice is moments like last night, it was just me and a fiddler, and he was calling the tunes as he went through a long set, and during the last B part of the Kesh, he just said "the next one" or something like that, and we both went to the same tune (give us a drink of water, which I think is paired with the Kesh on an old Bothy Band Album). Whether we work with names, snippets of tunes, or just having done this together for a long time, we communicate.
Don't You Hate it When...
Don't You Hate it When...
You know a tune but you don't know from where or the name of it. I hate that feeling.
# Posted on January 14th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
I hate that feeling too. Specially when I don't know the name of the tune. It irritats me when the tune name is, for example "Paddy Fahy's". There are several tunes under same names. I think every tune should have some kind of indentity. I love when one tune have couple of names, but problems starts when there are same names for couple of tunes.
# Posted on January 14th 2006 by Bile
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
I know where I learned all my tunes, and who I got them from.
I just can't ever remember the names of them!
There must be some way of doing so, but I'm darned if I can find one....
# Posted on January 14th 2006 by Wurzel
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
Good joke Larsheen
Interesting question for those folks who know thousand tunes or more. Do they know all the names? What do you think?
# Posted on January 14th 2006 by Bile
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
Larsheen, I think your joke is spot on!
There was a time when I knew all the names, but it' s beginning to fade since I know more and more of them. Might be my age also, though ;)
# Posted on January 14th 2006 by Henk Bos
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
my wife knows everything (but in a nice way.) we're church musicians and she tells me, "we're doing psalm 98 (or whatever #)" i reply, "what's that? (i can't remember stuff like that.)" so she tells me the first line and i say, "o, i know that song, i like it." and she says, "you're thinking of the other version this is this version." and she's right. yep, i hate that (but in a nice way.)
# Posted on January 14th 2006 by mutepointe
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
Yes I hate that also. Especially when you FINALLY find it on a CD and it's listed as "traditional". Just once I'd like to see a session when some one say let's play that traditional tune and every one jumps into the same tune. I don't care how traditional it is...........IT"S GOT A NAME.
Whew, thanks for listening. I'm gonna ago take my medication now.
Mary
# Posted on January 14th 2006 by Antikhntr
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
Yes, it's got a name, but the name is "George."
KFG
# Posted on January 14th 2006 by KFG
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
I've given up trying to remember the names of all the tunes. I'm still waiting for the day when I can play all of them. When I can play maybe 75% of all tunes in any session I can walk into, THEN I'll worry about having a name for all of them.
# Posted on January 14th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
Er, I can play a fair few tunes and long since gave up trying to remember their names or where I learned them. May just be old age kicking in though. And some people - Mick O'Connor springs to mind - seem not only to know X thousand tunes ... but multiple distinct versions thereof ... and where they came from. Scary.
# Posted on January 14th 2006 by Wuhoo
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
... and of course there's a big difference between knowing a tune and being able to start it in a session.
# Posted on January 14th 2006 by Wuhoo
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
My memory for names (tunes and people's) is so bad I don't call anyone by their name except close family. I don't mind not knowing the names and most of the tunes I play I picked up in sessions through osmosis. Even the ones that I start are 'that first set on that Kevin Crawford cd' or that tune I recorded on my camera in a session last year. It really dosn't bother me but other people can be a bit annoyed when asking for titles.
# Posted on January 14th 2006 by tlittlewazzock
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
I've always known the names to all the tunes I play, and even some I haven't yet learned to play, but I can hardly remember people's names that are just acquaintances. (I remember my friends and family's names) But as far as tune names go; even though I know them all (except the one's that I haven't found names for yet) I don't have any kind of special or extraordinary memory.
I did give it a lot of thought though on account of having a reputation locally for knowing the names of all the tunes. People are always asking me, and even phoning me on occasion to play a tune into the phone and asking me for the name. (They call me "Dial-a-Tune".) What I concluded is that because I've always been the guy in the band putting together medleys and reminding my fellow musicians what the tunes and medleys are at gigs, it has necessitated knowing the names; otherwise I'd be like everyone else and wouldn't bother to burn them into the memory bank that contains the tune. As my repertoire grew it would take a little longer to remember some titles of tunes I hadn’t thought of for a while, but I would always manage to unearth it eventually.
There are complicating factors that give me a disadvantage at sessions though. When a tune comes up that I haven’t played for a long time, I have trouble playing it until, 1) I remember the title, and 2) I remember whether I learned it on concertina or flute. Until I remember these two things it feels awkward to play. If you don’t bother with attaching the name to the memory of the tune -- you can just play along with ease… and when someone asks you for the name… you just shrug – that’s so much easier.
# Posted on January 14th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
this is ridiculous. and one of my bugbears. You think the essence of a tune tune is in its name? The essence of a tune is it's melody. Tunes are tiny abstract notions and their names are merely useful, if sometimes amusing appendages. Where does it come from? The answer to this can be interesting and amusing, even worth knowing. But bear in mind that it has no relevance what so ever to the notes.
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
I know what you mean Jack, i used to have that problem too, So I decided to give up tune names. And now as you say - I just shrug my shoulders and play along and it is so much easier.
I hardly recognise a tune on Dows list and we play together the whole time when I'm not away (obiously)
Obviously MG, Jack realises that the "essence" of the tune in not in a name - uh duh!
God I missed this!
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by bb
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
It's happened to me before. I was given the notes to the Dunmore Lasses but without a name. It took me ages to find out but I eventually did a few weeks ago by fluke while searching tunes on this website.
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by PaddyCmusic
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
So what. Is it a good tune? Do you appreciate it more now you know its name?
Did you like Matt Molloy playing it with Ry Cooder? Do you like it more now you know its name?
Where the hell is Dunmore?
And even if you know where it is, do you really think the lasses who live there give a toss?
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
I always figured it was about lasses who were "done more."
;>}
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by mickray
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
I like that. There's a thing about the intuitive knowledge of a tunes you learn by osmosis. You have a lovely broad sweep ofthem rather than step by step. Tunes like this may not come to mind when you are leading sets but, oh, the beauty of the relaxed freedom of playing them when they turn up. It's the essence of relaxation in session playing. I love it to bits
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
Names aren't essential for playing the music, and they are a double edged sword, for the reasons that TWBAEM touches on above. But names are fun, and part of what makes Irish music irish. What is the difference between the Irish 'Paddy Ryan's Dream' and the Scottish 'Miss Lyle's' - nothing notewise really, just the name and a different feel to the playing of the tune ... (I always suspected that one of the reasons Scottish music is not as widely played as Irish is that there is less interest in a canon of tunes that includes such large numbers of 'Miss ...'s', 'Lord ....'s', The Earl od ....'s' - compared to glorious names like 'the Floating Crowbar', 'Tell Her I Am', or 'When Sick Is It Tea that You Want")
Names help you place tunes within the tradition, particularly if the composer/namer is known. If music is social intercourse and a form of communication, the names of tunes are part of that as well. Even the fact that a tune is Gan ainm - that becomes part of the game as well. It's like saying that the novel 'The Tin Drum' would be no different if it had no title. This is true, but the label is useful, and also coveys something in addition to the novel itself that the author thought worth conveying. When Junior Crehan called his tune 'Poll An Mhadra Uisce' (spelling?), that's what he called it, not 'Gan ainm'. Maybe in the grand scheme of things this doesn't matter, but in terms of retaining all the nuances of the tradition, maybe it does matter a bit.
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
Names are one way of remembering a tune. Memory, I suspect, is a multi stranded function – the more connections we make the stronger it is. Like word association or any other kind of mnemonic device, a colorful name, though arbitrary, is one more way to store the note sequence.
I always had a devil of a time remembering the name of the groundcover beneath the trees out back, till I pictured elephants rolling around in the foliage. I’ve been able to remember pachysandra since then.
Names are nice to have if you’re looking for it on a recording.
And then a perverse nutter/genius like Paddy Fahy throws a monkey-wrench into the works.
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by fidkid
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
Nothing in what I said described the names as being "the essence of a tune" so I'll assume Mr. Gill was addressing someone else. The only thing relevant in tune names is that they simply put an identifying mark on the tune so you can catalogue them if you like. Sometimes the name speaks to the tune’s origin and history, but it’s far from having anything to do with it’s essence.
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
Oh poor you, boo hoo I feel so sorry for you thats tragic when that happens
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by Ripthecalico
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
I can sit down and say I'm going to play such-and-such and then play it.... now if I sit down and play a bunch of tunes in a row, afterwards I can't remember any of them. I hate that.
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by tulloch
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
I am not talking about names actually. More of not remembering where I heard the tune before. Such as if I am listening in a session and I hear a tune that I have heard before but don't know what it is, as in I can't remember where I heard it. Most of the time I don't know the names of the tunes other people are playing and some times I might know them as track 4 second tune in set on (insert name and band here) album.
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
Now, what I really hate is when you’re mixing cement, and the shovel scrapes along the bottom of the wheel-barrow. I hate that. Like fingernails on chalkboard. Dang, got the shivers just thinking about it.
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by fidkid
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
I hate when I get the A and B parts of a tune mixed up.
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
...mixed up with other As and Bs, that is...
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
The only reason for names anyway is so that you can talk about people behind their backs.
KFG
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by KFG
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
Mr. P. Button said "...When a tune comes up that I haven’t played for a long time, I have trouble playing it until, 1) I remember the title, and 2) I remember whether I learned it on concertina or flute. Until I remember these two things it feels awkward to play. "
This is my experience, too. If I can't remember the title, I wonder if I know the tune or not and panic as I approach the B part. I play a lot better when I can put the name on it. Strange, I admit.
When I first started to play, I tried to imagine how some tunes got their name. Was "riding on a load of Hay" written on a cart at sunset after a hard day of harvest? How does "Banshee" reflect the tune composers concept of that creature? Also, I look on my map of Ireland to locate the refered to spot or google the name to see if photos come up to give me a feel for the tune.
Now I use a list of titles of tunes I know to remember them. I am afraid if I can't name them, I will forget them
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by feardearg
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
Don't You Hate it When...You make a light, friendly joke about something, somewhere, or someone, amazed at how clever and humoruous you are, and somebody responds, "yeah, everyone says that".
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by feardearg
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
Michael, you know how I like to pick on Jack but today I have to agree with him that he never said or even implied that the essence of a tune is in the name. Look, you can go round in your life and make friends with a lot of people and never bother learning anyone's name; obviously the essence of a human being is in the way they are - their personality. But things would get confusing pretty quickly if nobody had a name. Human beings have named things since the beginning of time and they've done so for a reason. It's the same with tunes. But think about it, there are so many tunes in the Irish repertoire that it'd become a bit difficult if nobody attached names to any of the tunes. The names are there for a reason and that's simply as a label and sometimes as a bit of harmless fun. So, to have a bugbear about people going "wow that name is so deep and meaningful" is understandable, and I'm with you on that one, but to have something against people who like to remember names or like to use names - frankly that's silly and pointless and you're wasting your energy having that bugbear. Should we think any less of you because you happen to know the name of the tune that goes |A2FA A2dB|A2FA BE~E2|A2FA A2Bd|egfd ecdB|... (or however it goes)?
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by Dow
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
Good points, Ottery.
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by oldstrings
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
Dow, you make an excellent point. For whatever reason I think Michael just likes to disagree with people. Of course the essence of a tune is not in the name, but to have a name helps some people remember. Lets think if no tunes had names some players would attach names to them anyway. Yes, I agree that a name is not important but not everybody else is that way, why does it matter if they think differently?
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
It was when bile, in the 2nd post said "I think every tune should have some kind of indentity". Like they can't have an identity without a name
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
The tune that can be named is not the true tune.
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by Wuhoo
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
Maybe they could have a registered number - then they could be barcoded. Then the scanner in the middle of the table could pick it up and flash the name of the current key on the In-Pub Session Display Unit, and if it wasn't being played in the prescribed key, a flashing red circle would come up with the official key in the middle, and keep flashing till the offenders changed to the licenced key. This would fit in well with the spirit of the Brave New Entertainments Licences.
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
Tune titles have their obvious reasons for being there, and there's nothing wrong with knowing them, but I'm always amazed that there are people who tout the fact that they don't know any of the names as though it's some sort of badge of authenticity. Complete and utter poppycock!
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
You've noticed that too?
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
This is a hideous generalization, so shoot me down in flames, stamp on my head, tell me I'm inauthentic, whatever. But IMHO the people who know the fewest names know the most tunes, play them well ... and know *all* the intros of however many hundreds or thousands they play. That way they can stitch together or extend sets on the fly very easily.
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by Wuhoo
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
No, I think you might be right, what Jack was talking about (I think) was people who announce not knowing tune names as a sort of policy statement.
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
"Yes, I agree that a name is not important but not everybody else is that way, why does it matter if they think differently?"
It doesn't really, but it isn't a prime example of thinking well.
"Like they can't have an identity without a name"
I really hate when this happens, but it does now and again anyway.
I have to agree with Michael here. Orson too I guess.
The identity of a tune is not its name. It's what it *sounds like.*
The sole function of a name is to allow something to be *talked about.* It is an identifier, but it is not its identity. A cow is a cow even if you don't know it's a "cow."
So it might be a vache . . . even if Jim doesn't understand that.
And just in case anyone out there read the book hoping to find out, the name of the rose is . . . rose.
And a rose is simply too busy being a rose to know what arbitrary naming conventions are attached to it.
And so the most accurate identifier of a traditional tune, in fact the only accurate identifier of a traditional is:
"The one that goes like this. . ."
KFG
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by KFG
P.S.
I agree with Jack's last too.
KFG
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by KFG
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
I think Orson's generalization doesn't give enough credit to our brains. I know most of the names to the thousand or so tunes I can play, and I can access them that way--by thinking of their names. But when linking tunes on the fly in a session, I rarely think of their names--I just go where the sounds lead me. Sometimes the name doesn't come to me until I'm into the third time around, sometimes it doesn't come until the end of the set and someone asks, "What was that tune after the one after Jug of Punch?" (And in those instances, it sometimes takes me a minute or two to dredge up the name.)
In short, knowing the names doesn't have to get in the way of playing the tunes.
And plenty of tune hounds with thousands of tunes in their repertoire have names for most of them. Look at Paddy O'Brien. I've found the same to hold true for players like Liz Carroll, Mick Moloney, Seamus Egan, Mike and Mary Rafferty, etc.
Of course, it's also completely common and generally accepted practice to name the tune after your source (rather than remembering the name that might have come with it), which is why there are so many Tommy Peoples' reels, and why a tune like Tom Hackett's Dream is also known as Owen Hackett's (after the composer), Paddy Gavin's (after a player who helped popularize it), and Carmel Doyle's (after someone's teacher).
My guess is that whether you remember names of tunes or not depends on how strong the verbal wiring in your brain is and whether the names are important to you or not. Lots of things influence the latter aspect--how you learn your tunes, whether you use printed collections, how much time you spend cruising tune lists and databases, etc.
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
I think that ALL generalizations are ALLLLL wrong, ALLLL the time. Speaking generally.
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
Also, some people are just fascinated by Nomenclature. Read Last Nights Fun by Ciaran Carson, or just have a glance at Aidan Crossey's Pay The Reckoning site - where he compiles lists of names that don't yet have tunes attached to them ....
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
I usually use the snippet method, i.e. suggesting tunes by playing snippets, rather than names when I'm at a session. If someone says, "Do you have a name for it?" I sometimes have to think about it a bit, but having the name is supplemental at best for the purpose of finding a source for the tune or remembering what to ask for.
Orson writes: “IMHO the people who know the fewest names know the most tunes, play them well ... and know *all* the intros of however many hundreds or thousands they play. That way they can stitch together or extend sets on the fly very easily.”
This is a fallacy; it goes both ways… I’ve known people who know tons of tunes and all the names and can “stitch together or extend sets on the fly very easily.” I’ve also known people who know tons of tunes (but not the names) who are able to follow along with every tune but seem to always play the same tunes when they’re the ones starting them. It just depends on what you’re used to and how you’ve established your memory – not how many tune names you do or don’t know.
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
Oh, I don't think it's a fallacy, it's just one way of looking at it. Why slam up against one end of the spectrum or the other? It all works, one way or another.
P.S. Orson, you're STIRRING...STOPPIT! *smirk*
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
Yes miss, sorry miss.
# Posted on January 15th 2006 by Wuhoo
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
LOL -- you better watch it, I've a killer aim with the chalk...!
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
(Jack raises hand)
Zina: Yes Jack?
Jack: uh... but I looked it up and everything.
Zina: You did?
Jack: uh.. yea... look. (opens dictionary and points to the definition)
Fallacy
1. something that is believed to be truth but is erroneous
2. an argument or reasoning in which the conclusion does not follow from the premises
3. the condition of being misleading or deceptive
4. a mistake made in a line of reasoning that invalidates it
Zina: Oh... uh huh.. Oh my, how time flies... I think I hear the bell... class dismissed.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
I think you're not taking into consideration, Jack, that you were being wound up...
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Zina Lee
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
I hate it when I've practiced a bunch of tunes then go to a jam session. When asked for a tune I can name the tune but can't remember for the life of me the first notes to get it started. Luckly though there's a wonderful lady who not only knows all the tunes but can start 'em. It's been a game for us to have her play the first couple of notes to see who jumps on the tune first. We call that knowing "teflon" tunes. We know them but they don't stick.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by jrathbun
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
This seems like a good excuse to quote poetry:
"Music to me is like days
I rarely catch who composed them "
Poems generally have titles, this one's called "Music to Me is Like Days" by Les Murray
http://www.poemhunter.com/p/m/poem.asp?poet=8748&poem=69255
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Bren
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
jrathbun, that whole not rmembering how it starts happens to me when I haven't played a tune in a long time.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
What is nice is moments like last night, it was just me and a fiddler, and he was calling the tunes as he went through a long set, and during the last B part of the Kesh, he just said "the next one" or something like that, and we both went to the same tune (give us a drink of water, which I think is paired with the Kesh on an old Bothy Band Album). Whether we work with names, snippets of tunes, or just having done this together for a long time, we communicate.
# Posted on January 16th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Don't You Hate it When...
I have it easy all my tunes have tha same name- Gan Ainm
# Posted on January 19th 2006 by Red Crow