Maybe Tonight

By Four Men And A Dog

  1. Music For A Found Harmonium
  2. I Wanna Ramble
  3. Rambles In Russia
  4. The Ashplant Set
  5. Maybe Tonight
  6. Barlows Knife
  7. The Trip To London
    Sean Ryan’s
    Leslie’s March
  8. The Midnight Special
  9. The West Kerry Set
  10. Martin Wynne’s
    Touch Me If You Dare
    The Bucks Of Oranmore
  11. Baby Loves To Boogie
  12. The Last Rose Of Summer

Forty-one comments

Cathal Hayden (fiddle, viola, banjo), Gerry O’Connor (banjo, fiddle, mandolin), Kevin Doherty(guitar, vocals), Gino Lupari(bodhran, percussion & vocals). Also featured are Donal Murphy (accordion), Martin O Connor (accordion), Arty McGlynn (guitars), Liam Bradley (drums & percussion), James Blennerhassett(bass), Rod McVey (keyboards), Jimmy Higgins (bodhran & percussion), Nicky Scott (bass), James Delaney (hammond organ & piano), Henry McCollough (backing vocals).
Saw this lot live last week and they were brilliant. As usual the album is not half as good as the band live, but still well worth the listen.

Four Men and a Dog query

Four Men and a Dog query

On their album ‘Maybe Tonight’ , the 4th track is called the Ashplant Set (reels) . The first tune is known to me not surprisingly as The Ashplant although it is not in the key I am used too. What I would like to know is the name of the second tune that has such a great lift to it and are the dots on this site somewhere?

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

why do you need the dots if you have a recording?

Posted .

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

llig leahcim - If I was fortunate enough to be able to play reliably by ear and retain tunes as you seem to be able to I would not use sneering tones at those less fortunate. I would commiserate and try and help them.

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

May I be so bold as to make a suggestion here?

As we all know now that llig will inevitably be the first to respond to each new thread posted here & as we can all, by now, fairly accurately predict what his first reply will be, I propose that from now on we each include in our thread topic, a first reply by llig!

This will save the *old boy* the effort of firing that early volley & give him more time to work on his more considered & more mannerly 2nd post!

What do you think?

:-P

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

As for the retort. Can I just say that I spend my week teaching ITM in schools & regularly come across that ugly old classical sneering snobbery thingy, where they, the classically trained musicians have a tendency to look down their noses at the trad musicians & their usual inability to read music.

This trait is, in my opinion, just as ugly when it is of the inverted kind. :-(

The ability to be able to read music quickly & well, is an invaluable tool in any IT musicians arsenal & is not, I believe, to be sneered at. Obviously their are other skills required.

I have always disliked the dictatorial approach to teaching music. You know the kind of thing - there’s only one way to hold a bow, one way to hold a fiddle, etc etc with the standard answer to each being - *the CORRECT way*. We’ve seen this type of balderdash disproved time & time again by folks learning to play brilliantly by doing it their own way & not going by the book or sheepishly following the crowd.

So tear away Dave, if you find the dots, I say by all means learn the tune the way you see it written. In time, no doubt, you will adapt that version by encorporating choice cuts from other versions, until you end up with your own interpretation. It’s a wonderful journey Good Luck with it - you know you’ll have fun!

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

"fortunate enough"? It has nothing to do with fortune, it’s just practice. Start practising. And you much mistaken if you think I’m not trying to help.

Posted .

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And Pt, I have never said that reading music is not useful, just not necessary. However, the ability to learn by ear is, with this music necesary.

Posted .

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You say you’re trying to help, Michael, but you’re really just trying to be snide and cynical, as usual. I wonder how many great people get turned off to this site after reading too many of your comments? I actually know of a few myself, and it’s a damn shame there has to be negativity like that on this board. I know, this has all been said before to you, but I’ve always kept my thoughts to myself.

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

Re: "Fortune .." - I believe it does llig. I see young P4 & 5 children every day trying to learn to play the Whistle. Some pick up tunes & memorize them like lightening, while others really struggle with that & yet those kids are often very quick to read the notes off the page.

I would never dictate that only one method is the right method. I endorse both methods while at the same time gently encouraging all to develop their listening & memory skills, knowing how important they are.

I’d hate it said of me that I’d ever discouraged anyone!

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

Yes I’m cynical when such a basic skill is just given up on and the easy option taken. Come on now, it’s not hard to learn these tunes by ear. It’s not like I’m asking you to learn a beethovan piano sonata or a charlie Parker solo. It depresses me when people give up

Posted .

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

It just doesn’t come naturally to some. For some people, it’s not a "basic skill." Don’t condemn them for having to learn in a different way. I agree that it does take practice to train your ear. I was lucky in that I was made to do it when I was a child. Let people learn at their own pace, and in their own way.

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

"Come on now, it’s not hard to learn these tunes by ear." - that is obviously easy for you to say llig, but what I’m saying and what I’m asking you to consider is that not everyone here finds it so easy.

So what, if they develop their reading skills along the way, what harm?

Before I started teaching I used to think absolutely everyone had natural rhythm & so absolutely everyone could easily learn to play a Bodhran. I have since learned, through teaching the Bodhran to complete beginners for the past 12 years, that there are in fact, some folks out there who find it very difficult indeed to learn even the basic skills on a Bodhran! …… I kid you not.

I am sure nobody here denies that being able to listen carefully to this music & learn how to memorize tunes & pick up the subtlest of little phrases & grace notes, is a wonderful & very useful talent to have &/or acquire &/or develop, but what I was suggesting was that it might be more helpful if you dropped this idea on the heads of newcomers & learners with a rubber brick, rather than a fully laden skip!

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

"I was lucky in that I was made to do it when I was a child.".

Lucky because you were made to. Says it all

Posted .

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

Some kids understand written material with ease but find heard sounds and instructions bewildering; with others, it’s the opposite. It’s the way different people are made. (I was one of the first kind.) When I started playing ITM, I’d heard plenty of tunes, but actually learned the ornaments and articulation from a book, and took off from that point. Now I’m in a reasonable position to pick up tunes both by ear and from the dots; I can "hear" the music when I read the dots, and can learn a newly-heard tune that much more easily by locating a difficult note sequence, e.g., precisely in its bar structure.
The Irish tradition may well be more oral / aural than its UK equivalents; but the Scottish and Northumbrian ones are paved with MSS and sheet music, no doubt produced in the hope that people to come would find them of use in learning / playing that music.

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

Just came across this interesting extract. I’m not sure why I find it relevent to this thread, perhaps you can see a link?

"The Boss Delusion

I have just finished reading Richard Dawkins’ book The God Delusion and have to say I enjoyed it. There was little in there that wasn’t familiar and little I didn’t agree with. However his style can be counterproductive at times and he comes across as snide and arrogant which I am sure does little for his chances of reaching the faithful and making them question their beliefs."

http://theobvious.typepad.com/blog/2007/02/the_boss_delusi.html

Wonderful thing this *Net*, now I’m off to investigate the typical traits of Calvanism ………………

:-P

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

I used to think that ptarmigan was a grouse but know I know better ;-)
Thanks for the support guys. So Lig is a grump
I had actually worked that out and other sites have taught me the folly of feeding trolls.
Can we get back to the question does anyone know the name of this tune?

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

………. Eh Sorry Dave, truth is I can’t help you there cause I don’t actually have that CD. :-(

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

Its a good CD I recommend it.

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

As far as I can remember the second tune is called either "The Bunch Of Currants" or "Esther’s Reel".

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

I think we should all stop proselytising about learning tunes by ear and start to explain instead how we do that. There’s a current thread that gives the opportunity to do just that. It’s a skill just as much as learning to read music is a skill. To sit back and say that the only "proper" way to learn tunes is by ear is to put up yet another barrier to getting people playing ITM. it has about as much credibility as saying that you must be Irish before you can do it.

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

God, I wish there was an edit function.

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

Yes, getting people to play and enjoy this music is proselytising. But in the best sense of sharing.

This has all been done to death, of course, and here is some corroboration:

http://www.thesession.org/discussions/10425/

Let’s look at it this way, there is a general consensus that if you learn a tune by ear, you have a greater chance of retaining it. Bazouki Dave really likes this tune, so what if he really struggles with it, really struggles to learn it by ear. It takes him ages but what a joy when he finally nails it. It will stay with him forever and he’ll be chuffed to bits.

Posted .

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

And there’s more too it than that and it goes right to the heart of what this music is. It is about the subtleties of variation, of decoration (I’ve always disliked that word, it makes the use of rolls etc sound like optional extras, which they are most definitely not) and version. The use of the written form hinders all three of these essential features.

Posted .

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

Dog with a bone! llig if dave wants a bit of help with a tune why take the p!ss.If your only having the craic grand But ??????????? Each one to his own way of learning .End product is what matters.The more people that learn the TUNES the tradition will carry on sure isnt that the point of this site.Ah !!!!!!

Posted by .

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

Har Har Goldfrog - slagging off llig and meanwhile in your bio you consider irish tunes as Paddy ttossing! That is just almost funny…almost

Posted by .

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

Sorry "Paddy Ttossing" of course!

Posted by .

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

t*w*a*n*k*i*n*g - god - it was going to change it like that can it at least spell T*o*s*s*i*n*g with just one T???

Posted by .

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

This is an amusing thread. Goes to show you never know who you’re writing to.

I’ve played a few sessions with Dave. He knows the tunes and is one of the best backers I’ve played with and can obviously pick up stuff by ear. I’ve witnessed him picking out some fantastic chords on the fly to something he’s not heard before, tell you what key it’s in, etc. etc. He certainly knows the music as well as anyone else here. So yeah, it’s probably not worth the pixels to lecture him about the benefits of learning by ear. Preaching to the choir.

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

Hi Sessioneers. I’ve been visiting this site almost daily since Xmas. In that time I’ve found llig to be very dogmatic and predictable. However, dogma can be useful. I now use my tuning fork first and check how I’ve done with an electric tuner after .Sometimes I can identify sharp or flat a before I strike the fork. My ear is my last frontier. I’ve been learning fiddle and ITM or six years, I’m closing in on 60 now and probably as good as I’m going to get as far as being dexterous goes but I can still make great strides with intonation, tuning and playing by ear .

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

People who come to ITM later in life and have had a lifetime of playing music - "classical", shall we say - via the dots (obviously through no fault of their own), can have a genuine difficulty in acquiring the ability to play by ear.

They find a lifetime of neural pathways being developed for sight-reading the dots now needs to be supplemented by the development of a parallel set of new neural pathways for playing by ear. This new development doesn’t take place overnight, or even in a few months in many cases. But happen it will, given time, practice, and patience.

It has taken me quite a while, but I think I’m just about there now.

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

Remarkable bodhran player, that Gino Lupari, eh Ilig?

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

Ornamentation is as individual as the person playing the tune, IMO. The basic tune, however, needs to be learnt - whether the instrument is a fiddle, flute, guitar, or even a bodhran. Some can do it by ear in an instant - others take a bit longer. If the ‘dots’ help this process - and by ‘the dots’ I mean manuscript, tab, ABC or any other form of notation, then why not use them?
Loads of folks I know carry little ‘crib sheets’ with the name of a tune or set and the first bar or two just as a reminder.

If the dots/ABC whatever are so damaging to the tradition, why are they available on this site?

Just for the record, I learn by ear, but have been known to use crib sheets.

Re: Four Men and a Dog query

Amen to that, wurzel. That’s precisely what I was trying to say before Michael deliberately misinterpreted me. I was simply trying to make the point that to say that "the only way to learn a tune right is to learn it by ear" is to erect a barrier against newcomers learning to play ITM. Just read the poppycock under "Tip 1" here http://www.alan-ng.net/irish/learning/ and see if you agree.

It’s got nothing to do with 4 mena & a dog

I’m sorry but one of the most awful things that happen to this music is newcomers to it attempting to learn it from sheet music.

Posted .

Which is totally irrelevent to this thread at the end of the day, as I reiterate that the original poster is hardly a newcomer to the music.