what are true traditional instruments?

There’s been so much going on here about traditional and non traditional instruments. Maybe we can, as a collective, get to the bottom of it and define what are the true traditional instruments for ITM. Which ones are really and truly of Irish Origins and which ones are imports? This is probably going to ruffle a few feathers and cause a few headaches but I just gotta be me and ask the devil of all questions. Kind of like which came first the fiddle or the fiddler. Or was that one about a chicken and an egg? 😉

Are there any originals????

I would classify an Irish Traditional instument as one which has lent itself toward ITM for the betterment of the music.

Who decides what traditional and whats not?

The instrument probably most often associated with ITM is the whistle, but then again, many other musical traditions also use the whistle in some form or another.

I think the one instrument that I’m most doubtful of its status as either native or an import is the U-pipes.

I think the only two traditional instruments are the whistle and the uilleann pipes…. the instruments which are used in ITM were taken from different places.

In fact, for example, the irish flute is not really an “irish” flute. it’s a flute from 1800’s (is that ok?) which was used by classical flutists before he Boehm flute appeared. Then, the irish started using it for their traditional music.

In Argentina, we use the box (we call it just button accordion) and the concertina for our traditional music, for example and it’s very different from the ITM, but as you can see those instruments are used in many types of traditional music. And the fiddle… well, almost every type of music has it.

is a bhodran a trad. instrument?

is a bhodran a trad. instrument? what about a bouzuki?- is that spelled right?

Aren’t the true Irish Traditional instruments the harp, bones, and pipes? Well the first ones, anyway… I do believe I read that in… hmmm.. Errr.. Brain fart….

Northern Fiddler?

cheers,
Armand

If by Uillean pipes we mean the “full” set with regulators, then Irish music has been played on the “imported” fiddle for longer.

Go back to Giraldus Cambrensis and his comments on Irish music in the twelfth century and he’s talking about the harp.

The playing is “swift and headlong, yet a sweet and pleasant sonority.”

…but later on he said “also, the egg that shayketh”. Or maybe I just imagined that bit?

Seriously, nice to hear it was the harp. I’m guessing, the wire-strung flavour.

Have a look at this thread: https://thesession.org/discussions/6109

Well, at one time there were no people in Ireland, and when they arrived it’s doubtful that they made music as we think of it at first, anyway. So everything is an import, including the Irish people. Ireland never existed in a vacuum, people and ideas came and went. Many other cultures have instruments like the harp, fiddle, whistle, forms of bagpipes, frame drums, etc.

Maybe we can argue about “What are the instruments which are widely understood to be traditional within the genre of music which is generally accepted to be traditional Irish music?” Not that this will get us any further forward….

There is also a difference between what is ancient or historical and what is traditional. Tradition is as much about what is perceived to be traditional from within as anything else. Take sessions themselves - the tradition is not a particularly longstanding one. Sessions as we know them have been around for less than 100 years, but those who go regularly, or are just aware of them, tend to think of them in terms of tradition. Rightly so, but they are often mistaken as to how old this paticular tradition is.

What if we look at the instruments which are widely accepted by most musicians who play in Irish music sessions. Most would accept the fiddle, whistle, flute, Uillean pipes, concertina, button accordion, tenor banjo, bodhran and bones as pretty acceptable. Most seem to think of the harp as a special case. No one doubts it’s place in Irish tradition but see it as pretty marginal as far as dance music goes. As for accompanying/chordal instruments - that’s another can of worms. Pianos, guitars and “Irish bouzoukis” are widely accepted in some circles and not in others. It’s interesting to note that of the three, the bouzouki is possibly the most widely accepted, although it is the most recently introduced. But traditions are not necessarily logical in that way.

Not very many truly Irish instruments. The Bodhrán, whistle and U. pipes maybe. Is a bodhrán an instrument, or a medieval torture device?

On another note, did you know the Irish originally gave the bagpipes to the Scots?

They still haven’t got the joke…

There’s also that find sometime in 2002 by an archaeological company on contract pre development of a site in Greystones in Co. Wicklow of a set of yew pipes and there has since been a lot of research and work undertaken to recreate their sound (you can hear it via the link below).

This find is recorded as the earliest wooden piped instrument found in Europe discovered thus far. Dated to c.2000 b.c

See this link:
http://www.mglarc.com/projects/musical_instrument.htm

It’s be great if they would replicate the set of pipes and display them in Monkstown. I’m curious.

The Little People were there in Ireland (although they used to be much bigger) long before the people who call themselves Irish today (not intended in a sneering tone of voice). So, whatever instruments they play are probably the truly original instruments of Ireland. Next time you’re lost in a field on a moonless night, make sure you have a pencil and paper with you and when the diminutive musicians appear, make some sketches (take detailed measurements if you can). You could try using a digicam, but I think the Good Folk would disapprove.

The following can be found in our sessions - Fiddle, flute, whistle, banjo, concertina, accordeon, mandolin, pipes, guitar, bouzouki, bodhran, bones [in moderation please😉], djembe.

Other instruments that get a look in from time to time include the banjo-mandolin, 5string banjo, keyboards/piano, piano keyed accordeon, parlour pipes, lute, hammered dulcimer.

We have also had the appearance of lesser well known instruments in some parts like the clavichord or the harpsichord [Tríona for example], hurdy gurdy [Andy Irvine], autoharp and mountain dulcimer [Pumpkinhead way back].

We’ve even had a few sessions with an Alto Sax being played! [Thank you Stevie Rice]. And of course Moving Hearts used the sax to great effect.

A lot of bands also make very effective use of the double bass, electric bass, cello, viola.

I guess the only group of instruments that can be totally excluded from diddley dee are the brass family. Although I do love their inclusion in good English folk - June Tabor and the High Level Ranters, The Watersons, etc made great use of brass.

I guess I would define a traditional irish musical instrument as one on which the music is played sympathetically.

I’m certainly NOT with those who think that the inclusion of a guitar is the ruination of the music!

“I guess I would define a traditional irish musical instrument as one on which the music is played sympathetically” - I think Breadan says it all.

Arguments about who invented or where an instrument originated from are totally irrelevant and it’s more about whether or not one can produce the intricasies of trad on it - I’ve yet to hear a nice selection of reels on a tuba! It goes without saying that instruments should be accoustic and there’s definitely nothing wrong with a guitar in the right hands - mind you that could be said for any instrument!

Well now Bannerman - just to prove you [and me] wrong http://www.freyamusic.co.uk/index.html?token_women.html~content !!! 🙂

I know the Little People did play only the pipes*, so all the other instruments should not be allowed to join any sessions.

*read “The Piper and the Pooka ”
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/yeats/fip/fip28.htm

Breandan, you missed one - the latest sensation to hit ITM sessions this summer will be this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAbzH_srnHY&search=Autoharp

play video

That’s a bowed psaltery!

You’re right Paul.
Donal Lunny used one of these on “Lord Baker” on Planxty’s " words and music.

Now why would anyone call a bowed psaltery a “violin-uke”?

So Dick - are you getting one or what? 😉

Token Women can manage the polka OK on the trombone but I’ll have to hear them play Lord Gordon’s before I’m convinced!

Well it seems that most are in agreement that the instruments that can be called traditional are those that are played sympathetically to traditional music. I’d be a little skeptical about brass instruments too as Ive seen a jazz trio absolutley murder Irish music with a green tinted saxaphone and some type of outlandish piano accordion. I’ll stick to my percussion instruments and enjoy the music to the fullest extent I possibly can. Cheers all and hope you all have a wonderful summer full of music and lots of craic. 😉

A past discussion got back to the fact that the most traditional instruments predated the formation of current nations, and then we got back to which prehistoric people may have invented which proto-instruments, and then the discussion all kind of fell apart. Bottom line is that the boundaries of what we currently call ITM are very fuzzy, and those who have played it over the years have drawn instruments, tunes and dance styles from many nations, and made them their own. So there is a musical style that is unique to Ireland, but along the way, it absorbed many styles and influences from elsewhere.

Not sure about the rest of you old hacks but I have been around trad music for what (sometimes feels like) too many years. In that time fashions have emerged and evolved. I suppose a real trad purist would have to say that the only traditional instrument is the voice. Because after all the very nature of the music is that it is entwined with the society and history of past cultures - and most were living in poverty, passing on song and tune by ‘word of mouth’.

But what a tragdy it would be if we restricted our love of traditional music to such a purist state. Then we would have to dismiss the genius of Andy Irvine or the excitement of Kevin Conneff.

.. so next time you are in a club and a musician asks you where the socket is for his amp. Smile and show him - in 300 years taht fender will be a traditional instrument.