learning the Burke way

Ok, I’m teaching myself irish fiddle (not the smartest thing to do--but alas, the cheapest) with a Kevin Burke cd as my teacher (I’m partial to Sligo style). I’m not a stranger to Irish music--I have the hammered dulcimer under my belt, although that’s not exactly a session instrument per se.

But here’s my question (s)…
1) How in the world are rolls done in Kevin Burke’s Sligo style? I’ve been listening and listening, and have come to the conclusion that they’re probably bowed, although I’m not sure on all the notes or which ones, or even quite the rhythm. Help!
2) How much bowing is really going on in Kevin Burke’s playing? Is it a lot of notes with less bow strokes or many bow strokes with many notes? I know triplets are bowed…but that’s about it!
3) And to many of you this may sound like a stupid question, but to me it’s chalking me up. When two notes are played with the same finger position but two different strings (as in the first 2 notes in the song “Butterfly”) how is that done? For the quick succession, is one finger held over two strings, or are two different fingers used, or do I just have to suck it up and get really fast fingers???

Thank you guys!
-a very befuddled fiddler

3) Finger both strings at the same time. You can buy a dvd of Kevin teaching, btw. Its at his website. A lot of triplets in the Sligo tradition ( I use that word because people have been doing it the same way, unchanged for a long time ) are bowed and tripleted (?) with the fingers. A little bow emphasis during the tripleting (?) semms to be Kev’s preference. Hope this helps. I’m not much of a teacher.

A real live teacher in a one-one situation is always the best - no argument. I don’t think a beginner is going to get far on technique just by listening to a CD. It is absolutley essential to have visual input as early as possible. A live teacher will show you how to do it and to correct the mistakes you will inevitably make while learning. Failing that, if you can get to a session do so, watch a good fiddler and go up to them afterwards and ask for advice. More than once I’ve seen an experienced player give an invaluable mini tutorial to a beginner right at the end of a session when people are packing up their instruments. That’s part of what Irish traditional music is all about.
If you can’t get a teacher or get to a session then get hold of a fiddle tutorial dvd - they must be around, although I don’t know them. Over to other members for advice on this!

I taught myself…my technique is pretty far…But a teacher would be faster.

Which Kevin Burke CD is your teacher? If it’s not “If the cap fits”, you’ll find it harder.

“1) How in the world are rolls done in Kevin Burke’s Sligo style?”

A roll, according to Kevin, consists of “the note, the note above it, the note again, the note below, and the note.” It’s one of the few things in fiddling which he describes in absolute terms.

The chief variables are
1) “the note above”: it could be the finger adjacent to the note being rolled or the second finger out from it (f‘rinstance if your’e rolling a 2nd finger note, you could use 3rd or 4th finger for “the note above.” ) It’s kind of a fielder’s choice, you develop a knack for what will work best in a given context. In Eminor, for example, I tend to roll 1st-finger E (d-string) with the 3rd finger (G). Most of the time.

The “note below” tends to be the nearest one (or an open sring if the note is 1st finger). I’ve heard people talk about using hte 2nd note below (where possible) but I don’t. No doubt someone somewhere does.

Both the note above and the note below tend to be scale tones, I imagine there are exceptions but only occasionally.

2) the timing of the whole thing. All of the extra notes are “grace notes”. They have no time value but take their time from the note being rolled. The timing of the roll is best heard, it’s danged near impossible to write about it. You can hear different timings in jigs vs reels, also in notes on a down beat vs an upbeat. But that’s all by feel, you have to listen a lot and then try the different timings.

In my experience the notes in a roll are not bowed individually.

Practice the rolls out of any tune-context, like play a scale and roll each note. Experiment with the timing and check it against recordings of good players (Kevin Burke will do).

When you’re learing a tune play it without the rolls first, then work them in and make sure you don’t destroy anything else about the tune when you add them in. In fact, back to bowing, if you play the tune without the rolls you should be able to work the rolls in with little or no change to the bowing. (I’m about to go practice, I will see if that’s true)

You’re going to ask about bowed triplets next, I just know it.

Welcome to the world of fiddling! You’ve only got one lifetime so get busy.

PS find a teacher or a helpful mentor or something. It’ll go a lot more quickly. The fiddling, that is, not your lifetime.

Bo_in_VA

BO, thanks, that helped. I can slow down the cd (which is In Concert btw) with Media Player, but sometimes that loses the feel of a song. And whirlwind jigs and reels are a little hard to puzzle out.

I keep hearing this bow-scratch during rolls, though, and I’m trying to figure out if it’s my imagination--it almost sounds like the same bowing rhythm as in a bowed triplet with the added up and down notes not bowed, and that baffles me.

I don’t really have money for lessons, frankly. And I’m doubtful any sessions are nearby--bluegrass, perhaps. I live in rural central Pennsylvania. I’d really really hate to learn in that style, though, and then try to switch--I’m told that can be about impossible!

I’ve taught myself every instrument I play (fiddle will be four now)….but fiddle and it’s nuances seem to be escaping me. Ah, but I’m young--there’s time! Thanks for advice and I welcome all the more!!!

Don’t worry, you’re not imagining things - the scratchy sound comes from pressing down on the bow with the first finger as you’re executing the roll. It took me a while to work this out, and for some reason I find it easier to produce the sound consistently on short rolls than long rolls. It does take some practice - just keep trying!

Doodle

There’s a good video of Kevin playing solo at the Kennedy Center in Washington DC, or somewhere like that. Its actually a streaming video. You can find the link by looking up the tune “The Long Acre”. It seems like he only uses the upper half of the bow, and slurs any fast phrases. Here’s the link

http://www.kennedy-center.org/programs/millennium/artist_detail.cfm?artist_id=BURKEKEVIN

dg416, do a search under discussions here for “Kevin Burke roll” and you’ll find a wealth of threads on rolls, and particularly on how Kevin plays them and teaches others how to play them. Some of us here have taken lessons from Kevin, and then passed on his insights here. (And some of the advice in the above posts on this thread, though surely well intentioned, does not correspond to how Kevin plays or teaches rolls.)

Kevin tends to play very percussive rolls, contrasted with the more open or notey rolls favored by the likes of Brian Conway and Seamus Connolly. In fact, if you search the threads here for “percussive rolls” and “notey rolls” you’ll find all sorts of information and opinions on the matter.

And yes, Kevin’s two volume DVD tutorial is a good value, especially if you really want to study his particular approach to the fiddle. I’ve watched a friend’s copy--not as good as an in-person lesson with the man, but highly instructive nonetheless. You can buy them online through: http://www.kevinburke.com/html_fiddlelessons.html

P.S. Kevin’s website says that he’ll be playing October 26, 2006, (as part of Celtic Fiddle Festival) at the Sellersville Theater, in Sellersville, PA. That’s halfway between Allentown and Philly. Not exactly central PA, but also not a cross-country road trip.

dg416, I will echo Will’s advice regarding the DVD (Homespun Tapes). At 30 bucks a pop, it’s a pretty good deal, and will keep you busy all winter. You can slow clips down if you have the computer to do it, but even if you don’t , you will pick up a lot just watching him in action.

Don’t totallly dismiss playing with bluegrass musicians. It will bump up your level of playing to sit in and play with others. Just learn a few crossover tunes; you won’t be ruined for life. 😉

Here is Kevin Burkes own explanation on the roll:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRqwdzQ6ITc

play video