zero Fret mystery ( 2nd time ?)

Forgive me if this is a duplicate
Seasons greetings , and with luck and common sense a peaceful New year.
Thanks to all concerned for the upkeep of this site, I live in relative isolation in the carribean and find this site an incredibly informative / interesting forum, I bought an M&E flute based on comments on this site ( a beautiful maintainance free instrument perfect fort his climate )
But to a fretted question,….. can anyone help me understand the reason for the existence of the zero fret? why not just put the nut in it’s place? as I understand it the real scale length is from nut or zero fret, to the 12th fret, so open “a” for instance is repeated one octave higher at the 12th fret. Nothing new there. The bridge sits at roughly twice this distance give or take a hair allowing for a couple of degrees in string elevation .Is it about intonation via string length ?, can that little bit extra length really make a difference? ( no jokes about extra length please).
looking forward to being enlightened
Paul

Hi Pajic,

I had been told that some electric bass guitars are built with a zero fret in an attempt to make the difference in sound between on “open” string and a “stopped” one less obvious. On electric guitar you spend as much time stopping strings from sounding as making them sound so maybe there is some truth in it. On the other hand it could be the musical equivalent of the urban myth, and I don’t know whether it applies to zero frets on other instruments. (The only instrument I’ve ever played with a zero fret was THE worst bass guitar in existence so it wasn’t really possible to tell whether the zero fret made any difference at all!)

Seasons’ Greetings to all!

Pajic,

In theory the zero fret should give the instrument a more even sound. After all only six notes can be played open on the guitar so if you’re using a bone nut for instance its presence can only be felt on those notes. All others rely on the frets to create the note.

It’s much handier for Luthiers as well just to use a zero fret. No filing or awkward setting up!

The Fiddler

Try Pythagorian theory

Please dont ask what key it’s in

I’ve built my own mandolin and Octave Mandola and used zero fret for both. The two answers already given; (1) a more even sound for open/fretted strings and (2) easier work for the luthier are the reasons I also heard about. And from a building point of view I’d turn the question around - why would you NOT use a zero fret. All the adjustments with intonation, string heights, etc becomes so much easier. And as a bonus, you get a more even sound.
Nevertheless it’s concidered to be “cheap” to use a zero fret. And you usually find it on cheap instruments. But I don’t think it’s primary the zero fret that makes a cheap instrument sound “cheap”.
There are some adjustments that only can be done with a proper nut (individual free string heights for the different strings etc), so most skilled luthiers prefer to make it the more complicated way, but I will continue to use zero fret on my future instruments

Lars, I’ve been thinking of building a mandolin. What did you use for plans? I found a book on “F” style mandos, but I want to build an “A” and have seen nothing. Any recommendations? And should I use a zero fret?

Thanks for the replies, I’ll let you know when
I get through to Pythagoras.
cuchulain54 did you try rolinmusic.com for plans? also
stewmac.com now do an A style kit as an option
Happy new year paul

Cuchulain
My mandolin is a traditional teardrop, flat top mandolin. The F-style has a carved top and is much more complicated to build. I don’t know about the A-style. I know it is teardrop shaped, but I don’t know if the original A mandolins had flat or carved tops. But I would strongly recommend you to start with a flat top, unless you are a trained violin builder or have a strong devotion for the sound from carved tops.
I didn’t build my mandolin from a specific plan. I had an old flat top mandolin of the Swedish brand ‘Levin’. The instrument wasn’t playable because of neck warp and concave top, but it was originally a very good sounding instrument. So I used the outlines from that one and made some structural changes - from absolutely flat to slightly bent top, added a slight angle to the neck and reinforced the neck with a steel bar, etc.
I surfed the net for info on instrument building and most of what I know comes from the excellent site Musical Instrument Makers Forum ( http://www.mimf.com ). Do become a member (it’s free) and dig through their archives.
I’d be glad to help you along. Just write me an e-mail via the mail function here at the Session

Cuchulain.
Yes, I think you should use a zero fret

Thank you both for the links, and thank you, Lars, for the advice and the offer of more advice. I’m sure I’ll need it.

Lars wrote that it is considered “cheap” to use a zero fret and that you usually find it on cheap insturments. Not so. Fylde use zero frets on both guitars and mandolins (and, I think) on bouzoukis. These are not cheap instruments, are not considered cheap and certainly don’t sound cheap. It does make a difference to intonation and I imagine that this is why Roger Bucknall, the main man in Fylde, chose them - certainly there is no hint of skimping anywhere on his instruments.

Alastair

One (notable) exception doesn’t disprove the general principle.
In the weird and wonderful world of musical instruments, logical and rational is often overridden by tradition and emoted opinion.

This is weird…there are quotes here attributed to me, and I didn’t write them….I have no intention of building a mandolin. How did this happen?

I ws about to post about this subject, so ill just bump this one…