Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

you know, like ‘Tiny TIM’

or: ‘come on without, come on within, you ain’t seen nothing like the Mighty TIM’

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

…and, with the English claiming the perpetually-losing tennis player, Tim Henman, as ‘Our Tim’–should the Irish be kept from having THEIR own ‘TIM’? This, I do ask you, good sirs and gentlewimmenz.

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

Tradition Irish Music eh? Say, you just might be onto something!

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Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

I don’t know about CUTE though.

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Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

Because there’s nothing tiny about Irish traditional music – that’s why!

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

‘Cute’ may not be entirely apt, granted. But ‘ITM’–oh, so disappointingly–evokes ‘item’, as prosaic a word as exists in the English language. After ‘smudge’.

Hence, ‘ITM’ is an acronym which, to my charmingly sensitive ears, is now also a horror. A horror in need of immediate correction.

Wim with ‘TIM’!

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

The name Tim always makes me think of Tim the sorcerer… you know, who historically helped King Arthur along the way?

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Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

There are some who call me…Tim?

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

greetings, Tim the Enchanter.

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

You know Donuts, I’ve always wondered that myself. I mean, to my ears at least, Traditional Irish Music rolls off your tongue better than Irish Traditional Music. The latter sounds a bit more complicated and mysterious, so that’s prolly why it was chosen. I think it’s along the same lines as yelling at people for calling ’em songs and not tunes. That kinda negative mysticism some people like to shroud the music with.

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

Wow, yeah. Profound.

I can’t spell either of them.

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

Am I stating the obvious when I say that it makes more sense to put the country first? The brain has more time to assimilate info.
TIM is cute, however. I dated a Tim once, he was too.

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

Well, I do believe we speak English, which is the only language (maybe) where the adjective comes first… I was talking to a guy today who called in “Traditional Irish Music”. I was thinking about this early today. Strange that it should come up again…

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

According to American English grammar at least, it is correct to say TIM.

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

Odd that anyone should have to point this out, but first of all, there are lots of languages where the adjective often precedes the noun - French and German come to mind - and secondly, both “traditional” and “Irish” are adjectives in the phrase under discussion, both of them describing the music. I can’t see that there is anything to choose between TIM and ITM on grounds of grammar.

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Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

If I may split some semantic hairs… 😉

It depends what you want to focus on, the fact that it’s Irish music, or the fact that it’s traditional music.
If it’s Irish, then it should be “Irish traditional music” (in contast to English traditional music, for instance). It you want to stress that it’s traditional music of Ireland and not modern music of Ireland, then it’s “traditional Irish music”.

Since we’re usually moving in the realm of traditional music (rubbing shoulders, so to speak, with Scottish or French Candian and other countries’ traditional music), ITM is probably a tad more appropriate.

BTW, ben314, both Irishh and Traditional are adjectives, so the laws of grammar are adhered to in both cases.

(I’m sure at least my parents will be glad that all the money they spent on my education did not go completely down the drain!) 🙂

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Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

OK, Irishh is a typo and not an adjective, but you get my drift. :P

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Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

ITM is not an acronym. TIM is.

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

Avoid calling ITM TIM in some parts of Scotland.

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

Maybe the problem is with the “T”.
“Traditional” is a dodgy word at best. Stinks of narrow minded-ness and miserable conservatism.
So maybe “Ethnic Irish Music”?
“Ethnic” is much more friendly word! And I’m sure all the Amerikans and Ex-pats (interesting phrase when referring to any “Irish” away from home!) would like to feel that they are ethnically Irish-even if it’s a bit tenuous to say the least in a lot of cases!

Or maybe the problem is with the “I”.
At sessions one hears all sorts of tunes that may or may not be “Irish” per se. Although, obviously they have been absorbed into the so-called “Irish” cannon.
So, instead of “Irish” perhaps “Pan-Brittanic Islands” would be better. (Sorry about the use of the Roman collective but some weeks ago there was a discussion on using “British Isles” and no-one could find a suitable alternative)

The “M” for “music” one supposes, in most cases (!), is still appropriate!

So how about:
“Ethnic Pan-Brittanic Islands Music” or EPBIM?

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

I was thinking “Music of British Isles” and then we can have the MOBI awards and all wear lots of bling

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

I believe that “ethnic” is a bit narrow minded as well. Perhaps “Original”, or “The First” Irish Music would be better. OIM or TFIM? 😛

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

Wait, wait- I think the perfect one is “The Best Irish Music.” It really encapsulates the whole trad vibe. And BIM, like the beginning of bimbo? Come on, who doesn’t like that?

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

There is a specific order to adjectives coming before nouns. If you are a native speaker, you don’t study it because you do it naturally. However, as an ESL teacher I have seen it mentioned in grammar books.

Thanksgiving is a tradional American holiday- not the other way around.

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

Heike may be German, but I think she already covered that point. The order is optional, but there is a marginal difference in connotation.
The point about Thanksgiving is interesting, but to some extent a red herring.

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Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

“It depends what you want to focus on, the fact that it’s Irish music, or the fact that it’s traditional music.
If it’s Irish, then it should be “Irish traditional music” (in contast to English traditional music, for instance). It you want to stress that it’s traditional music of Ireland and not modern music of Ireland, then it’s “traditional Irish music”.

Looking at it from a *slightly* different angle: By calling it ‘Irish Traditional Music’, you suggest the existence of a generic ‘Traditional Music’ that is common to all nations, of which ‘Irish Traditional Music’ is a variety peculiar to Ireland or the Irish people. By calling it ‘Traditional Irish Music’, you suggest the concept of a generic ‘Irish Music’, which exists in ‘traditional’ and ‘non-traditional’ forms.

If you are a comparative musicologist, these disctinctions might be important. For the vast majority of us who are not, we ought to be able to enjoy the music without worrying about what to call it.

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Yes TIM is cute, all the girls think so

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

I’m also called Tiny Tim as in Little John

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Let’s call it Arthur. Sorry, whiff of Beatlephilia from down the hall.

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

Aw hell, forget the ‘TIM’ thing–I think “Da Diddly-Dee”, or ‘3D’ music is the answer.

Isn’t telling people you play ‘3D’ music better than telling ‘em it’s ‘ITM’ you play?

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

I thought Thanksgiving was invented by Abe Lincoln, as a non-partisan festival to link all Americans. How old do you have to be to be considered “Traditional” ?

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Bumped into this friendly drunk on the way back from Cecil Sharpe House ( had actually been to see The Ukulele Orchestra of Great Britain, but that’s another story ), and he gestured at the building and gabbled something in a friendly inquiry, sort of “ Ha’ ye’ bin doin’ the diddly-diddly ?“ and was happy to agree with that, to simplify any explanation.
What’s YOUR simple explanation of what we play, then ?

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

Jigs ‘n’ reels ‘n’ stuff. Even non-musicians seem to understand that.

Re: Why ‘ITM’ when ‘TIM’ is just so awfully CUTE?

ITM is pompos