Irish Music Scene in London

I’m trying to get my hands on good examples of the London style of Irish music. Lots of players (eg Roger Sherlock, John Bowe, Raymond Roland etc) played in London in the 1950’s and 60’s. There seemed to be a particular style of music in London at the time. There was a program on the London Scene on Come West Along the Road a few months ago and there was a quartet of Roger Sherlock, John Bowe, Kevin Preston (I think) and some fiddle player I can’t remember the name. If you can remember that show, that is the type of style I’m talking about. I have an album by Liam Farell and Joe Whelan entitled “They Sailed Away from Dublin Bay” and this is another great example. There is lots of drive here.

If anyone can suggest groups of ceili bands that are good examples of this style, I would appreciate it. Solo recordings are not really what I’m talking about because I find that this certain style is more of a group style than solo. I was thinking of Le Cheile who I have not yet heard.

Paddy - get your hands on Paddy in the Smoke - classic recording:
https://thesession.org/recordings/281
I don’t know if it really exemplifies the so-called “London Style” but it’s a great snapshot of some of the players who played here 30-40 years ago.

“Paddy in the Smoke” was a recording made in London around that time but I don’t know how you’d get a copy these days. I agree with you about “They Sailed Away” which I got some time ago - lovely version of “George White’s” - which also has a strong East Galway feel about it.

Sorry KML for cross-post; you obviously type a lot faster than I do and thanks for the link!

Paddy,
You are doing well with they sailed away from Dublin Bay. I like that album too.

Why don’t you go into the Traditional Music Archives In Dublin.
You have people there paid to help you with this kind of query….
And they have access to all of the recorded material..

Paddy, I didn´t see the programme that you mentioned on “Come West along the Road”, but in the quartet, the pianist was almost certainly Kevin Taylor (Paddy Taylor´s son) and the fiddle player was probably Sean O´Shea.
Kevin Taylor, Raymond Roland and P.J.Crotty are, sadly, no longer with us but the rest of them are, as far as I know, still playing away.

P.S. Fiddle player could also have been Vincent Griffin from Feakle who lived for some time in London.

Thanks for the replies everyone. I’ll try and see how to get a hold of “paddy in the smoke”. For sure, I’ll have to make a trip into the Irish Traditional Music Archive and ask them about it. Kevin Taylor it was, I think indeed. I think the fiddler must have been a Preston then. The fiddler was actually from London (or England anyway) so it’s not Vincent Griffin.

Younger musicians from the city also made a great recording: https://thesession.org/recordings/508 John Blake and Lamond Gillespie are not based in London now, but you could hear the influences from older generations of musicians who played music in the city.

get it from topic records (cheaper):
http://www.topicrecords.com/
or amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000591N/thesession-20/

Brilliant, I’ve been looking at that album with John Blake, Lamond Gillespie and Mick Leahy. I wasn’t sure if it would be what I was looking for but it looks like a good album to have anyway. Thanks slainte and Key Maniac Lad.

No prob.

I was around London Irish Music scene in the fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties.Here are a few memories.
The first London pub I ever heard Irish music played in, was the ‘Shakespeare’ in the Holloway Road in 1959. At that time there was the odd Irish pub paying musicians and I started playing the box on Sunday morning in a pub called the Brewery Tap in the same area in 1959. The ‘Bedford Arms’ in Camden Town was another pub that had Irish music. I remember seeing Maggie Barry and Johnny Gorman there. It was there I also met for the first time a fiddler called Jimmy Power who went on to start the famous sessions in the Favourite in Holloway in 1967. (I wrote an article on the ‘Favourite Pub’ published in Ireland’s Own in Feb‘) In the late fifties early sixties, there were Ceoltas nights at the ’Greyhound‘ in Fulham, then the ’London and Brigton‘ in Peckham and the ’Worlds End at the Elephant and Castle. When the sessions in the Favourite Pub took off in the late sixties I remember a ‘whos who’ of Trad musicians playing there at the Sunday morning session. The LP ‘Paddy in the Smoke’ was the brain child of Reg Hall and Bill Leader of Topic Records. Reg played piano with Jimmy Power at the time, and they had a ceili band called the Four Courts. In Fulham the ‘In Place’ was The White Harte where Raymond Roland and Barney Farrell held sway. The Raymond Roland Quartet recorded an LP call ‘Saturday Night at the Ceili’ in 1965 - Ember records - EMB3361. Around 1966 there was ‘The Glenside Ceili Band’ which featured a young Kevin Burke from New Eltham( he of Bothy Band fame) Tommy McGowan Fiddle, John Carty Flute (I think he was the father of John Carty Trad musician) and Tony Ledwith accordion among others They made an LP in 1967 called The Glenside Ceili Band - Fleadh Ceol Champions 1966 - Transatlantic Records Ltd TRA159. I will write out a long list of the various players ‘famous and not so famous’ that were around at that time, including those already mentioned but ‘me tea is ready’

Excellent stuff, Free Reed. I’m sure there are many here who, like me, are interested to hear more from you on this. Hurry up with yer tea!

Absolutely. You’re talking my language now. First hand ‘evidence’ (for the want of a better word) of experiences during these periods are fantastic to read up on for the likes of myself. Thanks very much for the input here Fred Reed.

Free Reed, from what you said, I´m sure we´ve played with many of the same people - perhaps we´ve even been at the same sessions !
I used to play in the Brewery Tap and The Shakespeare in the mid-sixties. I remember a very good accordeon player from the Brewery Tap - Johnny Minogue - I wonder what became of him.
Do you remember The Laurel Tree in Camden Town ? A very small pub, more of a glorified snug, where Willie Clancy used to play in the fifties. Long before my time, of course !
I´m sure you won´t mind me reminding you that it was “Michael” Gorman and “Liam” Farrell - with all the information in your post, a slight memory lapse is perfectly excusable !

I am that old I remember playing in the “favourite” in London.

Strange thing is I was playing the mandolin.

bb, I think we´d be surprised if we knew how many lurkers and posters on this site used to go to play or listen at The Favourite.
The only bodhrán player I remember at The Favourite was an enormous guy with a big beard - can´t remember his name.
He used to play regularly at the sessions at the Irish Centre in Murray St.

I managed to catch the very tail end of that era, by the time I moved down to London. I went into the Mother Red Cap at Archway a few times…and the other one on the Holloway Road up there….
Did any of ye’s get over to the Green Man Harlesden in the 80’s early 90’s? That was my haunt. And also was foolhardy enough to attempt to play at the Coach and Horses, further up into Harlesden. Ring any bells?

Danny, was that the session led by Brendan Mulkere ? And wasn´t Mick O´Connor involved as well - or did he take over from Brendan ? I think I went to it on one of my trips to London, but don´t remember it too well.
Brendan Mulkere - now there´s a character ! You could write a book about him. Geantrai on TG4 did a documentary on him not so long ago, but they only touched on the surface of the man and his music. Maybe there was a second part which I missed.
He was crucial to the development of Irish music in London over the last 30-40 years.
Still going strong. I met him at the Hammersmith Irish Centre in April, teaching jigs and reels to the kiddies.

Yes and no, Murph, Mick O‘Connor led the Green Man session. Brendan Mulkere, along with Paddy Hayes and Brian Rooney were the Holy Trinity at the Coach and Horses, but of course they played in other sessions up the Harrow Road and beyond. On Sunday mornings at the Coach they would be joined by various classy musicians from all over London, including John Carty, John Gaughan, Kevin Rowsome when he lived here, Sean O Shea, Mick O’C now and again, and many more - I think Annette Rowland and her gang may have come over from Camden. Quite remarkable really.

BTW - Here’s a little plug for a Brian Rooney benefit Gala Night for any SE England based afficionados of the music, where you might be able to see some of these players in the flesh, on Saturday, July 21st 2007, in the Corrib Rest, Queen’s Park NW6:
https://thesession.org/events/404

KML
Ever play the Norfolk Arms and the Old Mother Red Cap,
My regular Haunts for a time in the mid 80’s on the Holloway Road .
Some fine fiddle players Nick Raun , Billy Glasheen and Fergus McTaggart, Connie Ryan on the Whistle lots of tunes and great fun
My other haunt was the Brighton in Camden ,played there for many years , Marcus Hernon playing the fulte louder than box players great tunes ,great times ,great people.

Sorry to have missed those heady days in the Smoke as I was still in Brum playing with céili bands in the Shamrock and Harp Irish clubs. However, met Fergus McTaggart last week at the Clare Fleadh in Kilmihill. He’s still teaching music in Clare and passing on the tradition.

Ah, that’s it - The Norfolk. I only ever called in there a couple of times. Great session. I recall a lot of the older generation - the Real Irish traditional players - played there. But they were generous enough to put up with me, when I hadn’t been playing too long - but then, I displayed the appropriate humility and deference - unlike some of the youngsters I’ve seen around today…grumble grumble…

Murbox - You are correct of course with Liam Farrell and Old Michael Gorman (a senior moment there) Incidentally, Liam Farrell was the only guy I saw playing a banjo in those days. Yes I do remember that Minoge chap. I saw him playing in the Shakespeare. Another fellow who often played in the Shakespeare was Larry O’Dowd, played a bit on the box, but better known for leading parades dressed in full regalia playing the war pipes.
I used to go out with one of the Emerald Girls Pipers at that time. Some other names that come to mind from playing with them or just listening to them at sessions were:- Lucy Farr - Julie Clifford - Edmund Murphy - Paddy Mylinn - Jimmy Power - Martin McMahon - Tommy McGowan - Tommy Sheridan - Tommy McCarthy - Bobby Casey - Sean O’Shea - Roger Sherlock - Con Curtin - Johnny Doherty - Johnny Maguire - Tommy Maguire - Andy Boyle - Martin Byrnes - Johnny Gorman (nephew of Old Mick) - Mick Rockett - Tony Howley - Johnny Gibney - Bill Birmingham - Tommy Healy - Danny Meehan.
Next time I must tell you about some of the tunes that were popular at that time. Only old gits like myself still play them nowadays.

Free Reed, you really got my memory neurons going there !
Larry O´Dowd, all 6 foot 4 of him in his saffron kilt. He used to lead all the St. Pat´s Day parades in London. I heard that he played the box, but I never got to hear him play it.

The Emerald Girls pipers: was that Agnes O´Connell´s band ?
With Carmel Higgins, Mary London, Patsy O´Connor and many more ?
I knew most of the names you mentioned. Tony Howley made the saxophone in traditional I rish music (apart from the Gallowglass CB, of course) when he made an album a couple of years ago with banjo Tom Cussens. Tony was mainly a flute player, if I remember.

There´s a book you might be interested in:

Irish Londoners - Photographs from the Paddy Fahey Collection
by Finbarr Whooley
Published by: Grange Museum, London Borough of Brent
Sutton Publishing Limited
Phoenix Mill
Stroud, Gloucestershire
ISBN 0-7509-1371-1

Look forward to hearing about the tunes you used to play.

Murf Box, having trouble reading again? I said I was playing the mandolin in “The Favourite”, as I was working (as a student) on a site in Crouch End at the time. I didn’t own a bodhran at that stage.

And Free Reed had it right. A who’s who of ITM in the Favourite.

That’s me.

bb, I understood you perfectly the first time. I was commenting on another bodhrán player.

Who was the other one?

The bodhrán player that you were later to become.
Simple when you think about it !

Not in The Favourite. You only saw one bodhran player in the Favourite, unless you are telling Porkies, you bounder.

I wonder how many other people graduated from mandolin to bodhran?

Yes. I remember that lady ‘Agnes O’Connell (a rather stout lady) just right for the kilt. That book sounds like an interesting read. Talking about Bodhráns. The first time I had a guy play a bodhrán along side of me was in the late seventies, and as God is my judge this is how I remember it so well. He came into a pub in Peckham where I was playing on stage with a guitar. We were called ‘Buttons and Strings’ It was a high stage and we were both standing up on it. The guy came in with his bodhrá in a plastic Safeway bag. Climbed up beside us uninvited and commenced to knock seven colours out of the instrument. After about ten minutes of mayhem I stepped back to adjust a mike. He also stepped back and fell from the stage. I think maybe he broke his arm, but I never saw him again. Strange that…..

Ah, the London and Brighton on Queen’s Road, Peckham. The pub is still there, but I don’t suppose there are many Irish faces in there these days. Strangely enough, despite all the robberies, stabbings, shootings, drugs and everything else associated with that area, it’s actually very much up and coming as any estate agent would tell you…. not that I’d ever live there…give me Catford any day…….

To get back to the original question……….( not that I don’t love this reminiscing )……
I don’t believe that you can say there was a “London Style”, because the guys in the early sessions, recorded or not, were from all over. Consequently there wasn’t a homogenous style. Maybe that was it. The “London Style” was heterogenous.
There it is !
PS I remember the Favourite…Reg Hall driving the piano, Peta Webb singing…Irish people, what Irish people ?

Dave and Peta Webb, whom I met in The Favourite, taught me some of my first tunes.
When I played with The Camden Country Band in another ‘Irish’ pub twice a week, the landlord kept introducing us as The English Band, although we played mostly Irish tunes.

About the London Style being homogeneous I think we heard all styles, and picked the one that suited. Personally I wouldn’t be into the Martin Hayes style of playing and I often came across that style at the time. Don’t forget the fifties was a time when the only communication we immigrants had with the old country was by letter, or a telegram in case of a death. Phone calls were unheard of, and Radio Eireann could not be received. Sometimes a week passed before someone got a paper from home giving the result of the previous Sunday’s All Ireland Finals. I never saw any records available at record stores that had ITM on it. Irish songs yes, but none of your so called ‘didley ai music’ I sent away to a publisher for a book of Irish Traditional Music as advertised, and got back a book with stuff such as Paddy McGinty’s Goat/ Kilarney/Believe me if all those endearing young charms, and so on and so on. We did have one thing however……reel to reel tape recorders. Especially the portable ones with the small 30 min tape. (still got reel to reel tape with stuff on it) We also had musicians from all parts of Ireland working in the capital and that is how I and many like me, got to learn the popular session tunes of that time. Here are just a few of the more popular ones that I remember. I’ve put together tunes that were usually played as a set with sometimes another one added….JIGS. (Garret Barry-The Battering Ram)- (The Lark on the Strand/The Pipe on the Hob) - (The Priest in his boots/Lilting Fisherman/)- (Apples in Winter/Whelan’s) -(Kilimer/Visit to Ireland)-(Canny’s/Contentment is Wealth - (Tell her I am/Father Kellys (Lough Derg))- (Shandon Bells/Tobin’s)-(Streets of New York/Tongs by the Fire)-(Gallagher’s/Bloomin’ Meadow) - (Bride’s Favourite/Katie’s Fancy) - (Ceol na Mara/Jerry’s Beaver Hat)- (Queen of the Rushes/Augrim Jig)
REELS - (King of the Clan/Come West along the road) - (Imelda Rowlands/Craigs Pipes) - (Mooncoin Reel/The Scholar) - ((Sligo Maids/Bag of Spuds) - (Father Kelly’s No 1/Bird in the Bush) - (The Broken Pledge/Paddy Murphy’s Wife) - (Tim Maloney/Woman of the House) - (Goosberry Bush/ Down the Strand) -(Bunker Hill/The Old Bush/The Galtee) - (The Honeymoon/Limestone Rock) -(Trip to Durrow/Limerick Lassies) As I said just a smattering of tunes that were popular back then.. Of course we played lots of hornpipes and other tunes as well, but the Jigs and Reels were always to the fore.

check out http://www.rte.ie/radio1/therollingwave/1105589.html and look for a recorded interview with John Carty on 18 October 2006. He was apparently growing up in London at the time of interest, and knew The Favourite and its players. He’s a fiddler, so an interested fiddle player could listen to the recording to see if there’s anything particularly “London” about it.

All this reminiscing sounds class - I love devling into history!

Are there any old timer sessions still on the go here in London that anyone knows of? Like, that have been ongoing with pretty similar faces since the good old days? lol.

Free Reed’s memories do strike a chord, as I dived into ITM in the 1970’s.It’s that heritage thing-you often become aware of your roots in your 20’s.
The White Hart in Fulham, Con Curtin’s Balloon up the road, The Cock in Holloway and Brian Rooney as a youngster-solo, the Favourite. On cassette I taped a teenaged Gabriel McKeown at a London Fleadh (I don’t always like like uileann pipes but that really rocked!). Seamus Connolly (fiddle) prior to moving to USA and the late Paul Davis(concertina) recorded-what pub?
I’ ll have to dig out the tapes. Tapes of Fleadh Cheols in the 1970’s (competitions and outdoor. There are babies or revving cars in the background. But you can usually identify the well known musician coming through).
Just as I have to record these tapes onto a hard drive-one day!
As I posted once before, “The best recordings are in your head”.
Peter
London

Don’t ponce about with recordings, innit?
Get your arse into the Kilkenny or the Blythe (for instance) and hear and play for yourself what the contemporary fab London groove is! i was only playing with Danny Meehan and John Bowe two weeks ago at the Kilkenny, so ther old guard still exerts its venerable influence!

Free Reed, I can’t agree more with your assessment of the London Irish scene,particularly as I was a part of it many times in days of yore . Just one wee correction, as names should be remembered properly, it’s Andy O’Boyle, not “Boyle”, an error I think first propagated by Roy Kavanagh when he reproduced his version of the London Irish Scene. I know as he was my uncle and I played there many times with him and his best mate, Bobby Casey . Check out the sleeve notes on “Paddy in the Smoke”. Raymond was the man alright, and was a tremendous encourager of us youngsters of the time. It’s also good to hear John Bowe is still going strong…he was the last man I played tune with in the Queens Head . Nostalgia drooles!

Whoops, “Ron” Kavanagh,as I should have said if not to be hoist with my own petard.

Does anyone have John Bowe’s Contact details, I believe i have found some property that belongs to him and wish to return it.

Thanks,

Neal Smith

nealjsmith@hotmail.co.uk

Neal, if you’re still looking, John Bowe is on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/john.bowe.1447