What is it to you anyway?!

i’m writting this because through observation, i’m starting to wonder *why* people play this genre of music; call it trad, folk or whatever.. because i’m starting to believe that a good 70 percent of it is unartistic.

when i look at sessions, during the time the music is being played, the musicians have the heads down each sounding the same notes at relatively the same time but they aren’t actually playing together.. technically they are yes but there is no communication. no appreciation of the other persons stylistic individuality, no temporary conformity to it for the sake of the overall sound; to picking up their variations, observing their articulation, and developing it in ones own playing… no nothing, only mindless notes played in exactly the correct order. - usually.

normally sessions are too big so that you can hear everyone so the game is lost to begin with. the music tends to be mono-emotional and a mere exercise in technique as far as music itself goes.

i know that when i go to a session, unless it’s something i quietly organise myself with selected players whom i regard as artists, i go just for the social interaction in which the music takes second place, or to practice aspects of my technique. now if it happened to be a musical session, then i would dive head strong in but largely its not…

it’s just that when i think of it, the amount of occasions when a musician will call another few to create beautiful art is so rare… and i know enough musicians. i’d love to know why creativity, collaborating with others, and exploring the emotional and personal interpretive capabilities of this music is so rare in our genre.. the young rockers with cheap guitars will do it on a freezing grafton street.. and so will the broke jazz musicians all night for 5 euro each in jj’s, aungier street, dublin.. and it is beautiful. why with our genre, is the musical aspect of it so often overlooked?

is it that we’re aiming for the egotistical novelty of playing in the fictitious “pure trad” style to fit in with certain social groups? (that sentence is not meant in the negative sense.) or why is it we deprive ourselves from the ultimate buzz of finding the common ground between oneself and another musician and exploring the other musicians musical personality, stylistic individuality and in the process, creating something unique out of the common ground to the particular musical relationship. it’s a beautful thing, and i do think we’re missing out..

Discuss.

Martin Tourish.

I think many of us - including myself - when we play in sessions, are striving to achieve the communication that you are talking about. On occasion, it happens in big sessions, but not often. Perhaps I just haven’t wised up to that fact yet - or perhaps it’s worth sitting through 100 mediocre, less-than-the-sum-of-their-parts, sessions in order to catch the one magic one.

I’ve just started to play this music. I am playing in one session where the leader keeps telling me how to play. I don’t think I’m doing anything wrong. It’s an open session, too.

I’ve kept my head down to concentrate on the music. I’m also trying to play from memory. So I’m listening and anticipating the music. But, I’m playing in small sessions. Melody in our session is the whistle. He’s also keeping the beat. So, I’m concentrating on his foot (keeping the beat) and on his melody.

I can’t offer any suggestions on others. But, I thought I would contribute my own, albiet limited, experince.

I think the magical times are those rare occasions where the people who are playing have the most amazing connection, where there’s listening and experimentation, and where things are taken up and built upon. If there’s an “it” factor to playing this music, that’s what it is to me.

Great question, by the way!

The ‘buzz’, as you put it, gets my vote every time…

There used to be, in Victorian times, the idea that the bigger the better. Choral music used to boast how many people were singing in the group. But, sometimes with so many voices, the music was too big and lost a lot. It’s not that the people who were singing weren’t doing it right, just too much caused an overall decline.

Does that happen in large sessions?

Martin - ITM is just like golf, it’s a sport anyone can play, but there are obviously few Tiger Woods and Padraig Harringtons in the world. Most of us are “duffers” - although we love it, the truth is we are not going to make the tour this year - or the next. I think your angst is a bit misplaced. This music allows all skill levels to particiapte - it is “community” music. Granted, the downside is you will get many folks that do not possess the ear, skill, and passion that you might bring to the table. However, you also expressed your own solution. Hand pick some players you respect and enjoy, and have a closed session in your home.

OR - go to your crowded local pub session, and set the good example for others to follow. You’d be surprised how many people would appreciate a good session leader to show them how it should be done.

So, is a session a group of common folk playing common tunes or a group of extraordinary musicians there to please themselves or the crowd?

One of the things I like about this is the inclusionary aspects of it. (I realize not all sessions are truly open, but let’s exclude that for the time being.) Newbies, like me, are glad to play clean. We drop ornamentation sometimes so we can keep up. Give us time, and we’ll catch up, but there will be someone coming up to take our place.

Even with my ability I have truly enjoyed taking part of sessions, and I am mindful of my manners and don’t play tunes I don’t know. Maybe one person’s craic is not another’s?

For me, it’s social interaction, certainly, but also “R & D.” I’m relatively new to this music, need to learn tunes, and I have picked up some really good ones from session mates.

But I agree with you on the lack of communication. Too often, one player will start a tune, and the other players jump in and hammer away without even trying to hear and appreciate the first player’s interpretation.

~ & ~ R & R…

Sounds to me like you should gather together a few like-minded people as yourself, if this is the reaction your getting from being creatively stiffled. I think that many people put too much focus on “the rules”. There are definitely guidlines, things we should know about when playing this music, but I think they’re there so you can really understand the genre (if there wasn’t, maybe it would all be jazz? 🙂). Most of the great’ artists and performers incorperate all kinds of creativite ideas, and then it catches on and suddenly it’s become part of the “tradition”. The “Irish” bouzouk and the “cittern” are good examples, but there’ll be many more than that. But I would agree that there’s too much emphasis sometimes on “the tradition”. If no one ever did anything different, the music would never grow, and eventually die out. But luckily for us, it’s very much alive and thriving. My take on it anyway.

… by the way, I’m listening to Mozaik-Live from the Powerhouse right now… great CD! Not much to do with ITM (a few tunes thrown in here and there), but creativity at it’s best!

“ the musicians have the heads down each sounding the same notes at relatively the same time but they aren’t actually playing together.. technically they are yes but there is no communication. no appreciation of the other persons stylistic individuality, no temporary conformity to it for the sake of the overall sound; to picking up their variations, observing their articulation, and developing it in ones own playing… no nothing, only mindless notes played in exactly the correct order. - usually.”

– It always amazes me how sometimes this sort of freeform arrangement, often with people of quite disparate ability, can produce music so exciting and which does actually ‘work’. Not sure that it is always as mindless as you suggest, hopefully a lot of those lowered heads belong to musicians listening to the overall sound and responding to it …. Though in some instances your observation is spot-on(!)

“it’s a sport anyone can play, but there are obviously few Tiger Woods and Padraig Harringtons in the world. Most of us are ”duffers“ - although we love it, the truth is we are not going to make the tour this year - or the next.”

Jusa Nutter, I’m not sure that’s quite what Mr. Tourish was getting at - at least, it’s not what I read into it. I think you can be a ‘duffer’ and still communicate. Perhaps the apparent hordes of highly accomplished musicians around nowadays have led the rest of us to believe that we have nothing of any value to contribute.

I came to ITM from a jazz background, where I found exactly the same thing in large ensembles… so, I gravitated to small groups with similar sensibilities. Problem solved.

Just because someone is looking down doesn’t mean they aren’t communicating, I often close my eyes or look down. I will look around occasionally for musical cues but I find I can get the most out of the music when my eyes are closed, I can focus in on individual players better that way and am less likely to be distracted by punters, bad players or cleavage, (The latter can be a terrible distraction sometimes!), so just because someone is looking down or has their eyes closed doesn’t mean they aren’t communicating.

As for large sessions, I’ve found that if the majority of the players in a large session are strong players then a large session can be amazing. I’m sure you’ve witnessed one of those Donegal Fiddle sessions where around 20 fiddlers play together, this can be a really thrilling experience. Of course a large session where half the people there are useless is frustrating but I think it’s worth persevering with large sessions just in case you happen to stumble across a brilliant one where variations come flying out of all directions and blend seamlessly.

Finally as people have pointed out we have to make room for beginners and less accomplished players because we were all beginners at some point, I know you do this Martin cos I’ve seen you encouraging youngsters so perhaps your frustration lies with players of good ability who tend to go by the book and pour scorn on anyone who tries something a bit different. In these cases I’m with you 100%.

Perhaps you are right Name Changes, however, it seemed to me Martin was lamenting the fact that some folks are poor at listening, poorer still at playing together in a session. Of course that is true, and it will always be true. Expecting everyone who shows up at a pub to be a good listener, or to suggest that novices don’t appreciate the music as he does is unfair and unrealistic. Martin it seems is expecting others to appreciate and communicate at the same level, and with the same passion that he has for the music. If Martin is a “Tiger Woods” so to speak, he is unrealistic thinking everyone else have the knowledge of musical interaction and skill he possesses. It just doesn’t exist in this communal music. That was essentially the golf analogy.

In my opinion, large sessions become a little too hard to keep in control (particularly with no ‘leader’). I think people become more concerned about playing in unison and making the music sound good rather than actually enjoying and taking notice of other players musical personalities.

The best sessions I’ve had consisted of between 2 and 9 people. I think that’s the ideal mark. The whole ‘feeling’ just seems much closer and the music, from my experience, is usually better too (but maybe it’s a coincidence that they all happened to be solid players). I, for one, do indeed take notice of other peoples styles and, despite my young age, really enjoy looking into different versions of tunes and approaches to them as well as rhythmic and ornamentation aspects that people have.

The young people I play with (that is, my age [teenager]) sometimes disregard these little nuances but, having said that, a lot of them don’t and do listen attentively. I could certainly name a handful of people who express interest in these details but won’t. So, in a nutshell, from my experiences of sessions and playing with others, there can be a closeness and sharing element involved while also producing good, pure music but, as the old saying goes:

“Too many cooks spoil the broth”

It’s quite often the most technically-accomplished players who don’t listen. The ego thing. We’ve had two “fabulous” guitarists at our session who don’t come any more. Their problem in both cases is that they were using the session to showcase their own “talent” and they soon vanished when they were, ahem, not accorded the same welcome as everyone else. The mass of us are just hairy-arses who love (and respect) ITM and want to have fun playing it, and we HAVE to listen to each other. The results are often, unsurprisingly, dead good.

I don’t quite get the idea that if your head is down you aren’t having any fun or that you are not communicating with the others…who cares?

I think that if ones head is down or ones eyes might be closed one may be either concentrating or in “the zone” or just having a quiet moment..I don’t know of anyone who looks at another and thinks that the person they are observing is not contributing (1) or not having a good time (2)

Do you let the actions of others dictate the time or quality of time you are spending. Do you sit in judgement of other people and the reason they are present?

If this is a rant against big sessions, then I’m with you most of the way, but take on board those which frisbee pointed out - where a big session where the majority are strong players - the sound is dynamite. But if it’s directed, for their lack of “art”, …
…“To the multitude of nonprofessional musicians of the Gaelic and English speaking races all over the world, who enjoy and cherish the Melodies of Ireland….”*
then I’m afraid I’m one of them. Sorry for breathing.


* from the frontispiece of O’Neill’s Music of Ireland -
1850 Melodies,
and finishes, …“this work is respectfully dedicated”

I like the word ‘respectfully’ 🙂

Just joking, BTW.

Mostly.

Oh, yeah, and that dedication was by some guy called Francis O’Neill, whoever he was…..

So…. martin t??? You haven’t dissapeared have you?

It’s a good question, why do so many people play it when the vast majority of it is s h i t?

Actually, when it’s phrased like that, it’s a bit easier to answer. The vast majority of it is s h i t because the vast majority of people who play it are s h i t.

above a certain size
- somewhere between 2 and 6 depending on who and what -
you just surrender yourself to the overall sound
it’s not exclusive of musical communion
it’s just something else

It’s fun. Does it need to be more than that? It you want to go to another level, start a band.

Michael, dearie dearie me old boy. No, the vast majority of people playing it are not ordure and the vast majority of it is average to enjoyable. Just what do you want this dance music of ours to be? The apotheosis of dance music? So arty farty that the last thing that would occur to anyone would be to actually DANCE to it? You are so accomplished that you have forgotten the music’s roots. It’s down-to-earth, it’s simple, it’s supposed to be all rough round the edges. It’s for edification of as many people as want to have it through enjoyment. We are not meant to go to one of these new-fangled “session” thingies and expect to be in awe of the, ahem, performers. As you have abundantly proved over the years, you’ve forgotten that the primary function of the tunes to the vast majority who play it or listen to it (or even, heaven forfend, DANCE to it) is to have f u n. Now I have deliberately spaced out the letters of that word, as you did with s h i t, because I feel that you would wish it to be censored in just the same way.

And tell us this, Michael. What measure do you use to determine exactly who is s h i t? How do you know that you yourself are not s h i t? I think we should be told!

Steve, you get me wrong. I’m not complaining about the s h i t. I actually think it’s a good thing - people getting together and playing s h i t music. I like the fact that pople who are not capable of geting together to play decent music have the freedom to get together to play s h i t. This diddley music is very good for that

You could have fooled me. The post of yours we’re referring to would be read by most, I suspect, as just a wee bit complaining. I’d do a rolling-eyes emoticon at this juncture if only I knew how. Still, if you say so. Only an bloody inch and a half of Talisker left and nearly three soddin’ months to Christmas.

Ah, llig, you’re always one to boil the cabbage down to its essence.

I play only if I can wear a wig like Paddy Moloney and stand up with my tin whistle and twiddle a few high notes to be noticed

But thats me.

These days other people want to be playing the same shtuff as successful musicians which forces them into playing ITDM or similar. Had Klezmer been popular instead of Irish then they would be playing that instead!.

Now that the Irish music is so well known - i hear it even in elevators over hear and as wall paper music in those goey hotels full of rich people - it is no longer novel and for that reason it has become somewhat boring to most people.

However a lively band in a Bar no matter what they play is refreshing and to some extent exciting. If the band plays Irish or even Oirish musak then I would probably buy more beer because I would feel proud to be Irish.

So, no the artistic side of it is for academics and the like to gander on about. In addition talking about Irish music is like, jogging about astronomy.

Personally, I think art in trad music should be the exception not the rule. I don’t go to a session to create art, that’s what bands are for. I’d always enjoy tunes with my friends more so than tunes with people I’ve never met before. It ain’t about the music, it’s about the people.

A fiddler and I are currently planning a CD of Scott-Skinner tunes arranged in a contemporary style for fiddle, piano, guitar and bass but, as the entire thing is being multi-tracked, the project will never actually live, breathe and jump around; and there’s also a fairly good chance the tracks will be edits, not live takes. Artistic it will (should) be, incredibly polished it will be. But would anyone honestly want to see the next 50 years of CDs produced in that way?

Dear Martin,

I’m sure you are an exceptionally good musician, however you might want to take the “opportunity” to adjust the spelling in your profile. I am originally from Malin Head, so we are Donegal kindred spirits as it were, but if we must speak this language, at least let’s speak and write it better than those who have thrust it upon us.
In the end, does it really matter whether your head is up or down or whether your face is expressionless whilst you are playing in a session. It’s about how your face looks after you have played. How you have achieved “the art” of getting through a group of tunes and the satisfaction you obtain by doing it with others. For me, it is always an uplifting experience just to complete a set and the sheer relief of knowing that I have got to the finish and done it to the very best of my ability. If you have lost that aspect of this musical genre, then perhaps it’s time to question the value of “the conservatory in Dublin” and what you have actually achieved from your studies. The session is an unbelievable forum for airing your views, for getting feedback from a wide variety of your contemporaries and for adjusting attitudes. Of course there is also the drivel. Just read some of the above. Probably my own included. This sounds like one long criticism and I’m sure I have missed your whole point. However I have no doubt those who know you, will immediately jump to your defence and rightly so.
OK Martin. I’ll have a look at the sites you quote in your profile. (

Lovely playing, Martin, on that Clan Ranald cd.

“The vast majority of it is s h i t because the vast majority of the people who play it are s h i t .”

Obviously, in the ITM bible according to Llig, a vast majority of the WRONG people play this music - which leads me to wonder why so many of the RIGHT people choose not to then?

That quote ably demonstrates an attitude to the rum lot of players here on the auld yellaboard - Are we a mob of people who are s h i t (the vast majority of us anyway?)

Go away, Mr Gill and learn some manners!

One of my main reasons for my looking down is that I’ve just tried a long roll in an obviously impractical part of the tune and I’m too ashamed too look up as I’ve completely lost it.
I think there’s room for the good old play it plain session.
They’re great fun and its a community thing.
I can see how it would be a drag for your virtuoso type players,
but I’m not one of them so it doesn’t worry me, the more raw the better, as long as there are no singers, completely ruining the flow of tunes, nodding their heads emphasising psuedo emotional high points and winking at their little humourous tongue in cheek catch phrases………. I had better stop, I’m working myself into a ….. gasp….pant….pant ……pant…..wheeze
I adapt to each session or try to, thats the fun part, hearing how different groups of people do it.

I think it’s a great question from Martin. I also think that a lot of the respondents have missed Martin’s point. I would say it’s a difficult point to put across.

Here’s an interesting - for me, at least - observation, though. The coldness and lack of real musical interaction that Martin refers to seems to me to be *most* prevalent in those sessions where there are one or two people who think they’re ‘stars’; who assume that what they’re doing is the ultimate and anything that anybody else may put in can only detract. Interestingly, the musicians that appeal to me most as the *real* stars don’t seem to behave like that, but are encouraging and supportive and actually seem to *like* interacting with us lesser mortals.

The cold, just-play-the-notes phenomenon that I think Martin is referring to is, in my experience, more prevalent in Dublin than anywhere else in the world (OK, I haven’t been *everywhere*, but I’ve been to a few places …). You never get this sort of thing if you go to the west of Ireland, or almost anywhere outside of Dublin. And, even though the general standard of playing over on this side of the Irish sea is fairly lamentable, people do actually try to listen to each other, and there is often better craic to be had here than you’d get in a top quality Dublin session.

So, where to go to get good listening *and* good playing? You seem to have to go along anywhere outside of Dublin during a festival week, when even the Dubs are there to have fun, and even they start to get less precious and actually create some fantastic sessions.

In relation to Steve Shaw’s talk about this music being dance music, it reminds of a tv programme I was watching last night. It’s on TG4 and called Canúintí Ceoil. It’s about regional styles in Irish music and Mary McNamara featured on it. She said that the music seemed to change when it was played as a separate entity from dancing. Now, I will need to look over it again because I’m not exactly sure how long the idea of sessions has been going but I’d guess since the start of the 1900s or thereabouts and I’d be nearly confident in saying at least since the 78s era in the 1920s when Coleman and Morrison etc were recording.
Whatever about that, I would tend to agree with her or at least have some empathy. I obviously was not around to witness these changes as such but it’s a good point none the less. Maybe this music wasn’t made for a session in some peoples eyes. I, for one, love a session and am not complaining about them but this is just food for thought.

I got together with a couple of other musicians last night just to explore different ways of playing a few songs - experimenting with chords / inversions etc. That was a wonderful bit of music-making where we just had a go at stuff - sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn’t. It came close to what Martin might have been talking about, where you get together with a couple of others and really make music. My experience of that is very different from my experience of the sessions I go to round here - where I think a helpful attitude is that “the right people are there” and you have to all make it work. A great deal of the less-positive discussion on this board is about what happens when it doesn’t work, which is a joint responsibility of all present (I think).

Perhaps the “answer” to the question is about the variety of ways of making music, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes a session is magical, sometimes you wish you’d stayed home and read your library books. You just never know, and the serendipity aspect appeals to me. “What is it to you anyway?” is still a great question - you don’t need an answer, you just explore, surely? Maybe the ones who always play the same stuff and get miffed when anything new happens are the same ones who’ve given up exploring.

I was not meaning to imply that ITM should never be allowed to shake off its dance-music shackles, merely that it can be rather pompous to forget that and try to transmogrify it into something completely different, namely some kind of session art-form, with all the exclusiveness that that implies (hence the tendency for some to fall into the trap of declaring that most of its exponents are ordure). I’m dead sure that not one of the people I play music with would classify themselves as any better than “middling” but we do all respect the music and listen to it a lot at home and swap each other’s illegal downloads and all that. We even tick some of the other right boxes such as swearing at bodhran owners, groaning at the very sight of a piano accordion, snarling at anyone who wants to do Buddy Holly and raising a stern eyebrow at any suggestion of Duelling Banjos. It’s also a mistake to think that someone who says they’re doing it for fun is taking the path towards mediocrity. A lot of us take our fun very seriously, you know. In fact, we live for it.

oh god! i should have checked back at this when i got home last night!! thanks a million for your wonderful comments and insights.. great to read. i suppose i should maybe clear up a few things in my admittedly less than perfectly communicated post! (and i thought ye stuck up for the less technically abled here! 🙂 )

ok, thing about heads being down.. it’s gas that got taken up the wrong way! it wasn’t ment to denote mediocre musicianship.. that should be obvious! it’s just that try being really communicative with a musician whilst looking at the floor! hard isn’t it?!!! it seems a little to me like talking to someone all night and not making eye contact once..the fun is to see the reaction in the person you’re communicating with.. i can’t help but take my eyes of anybody i play music with… singers especially… it somehow seems to make it easier to catch every one of their musical nuances. disclaimer: that’s not the same as staring, just heightened awareness of the persons movements, even in the corner of the eye… alot of musicians move with the music- watch maura o connell when she sings for example! and keeping an eye on the body language can be useful musicially…

then about my comment possibly referring to musicians of lesser technical ability/ and or that my utopian session is only possible with the virtuosi, i have to say sorry i didn’t explain that one… my post had seemed long enough.. but i’ll tell ya; one of my favorite musicians to play with is a person who is really only learning the fiddle, but god is there communication! it’s an amazing buzz for me when i do a variation in a tune, he’ll be listening and put it in a diff place in the tune, changing the context and personalising it.. or we’ll have fun with accents, styles etc… now he’s technically not the may west, sure he’d say that himself, but that is really scarcely the point. i haven’t hardly played a session in dublin all summer with out this particular musician and maybe that’s what i’m lamenting here a bit…

i think my point of this discussion is to get people thinking about communication in this genre. the concept is fairly irrespective of technical ability and if you want to look at the floor, that’s cool: it just seems harder (refer to my eye contact bit in para 2 for my opinion!) so maybe we could keep this discussion going a bit longer and some of ye can try this idea out if you haven’t already? maybe, play your reels at diff tempo’s all night and in diff styles.. really jumpy, staccato and bright in one set and then more of a legato joe burke in the other… see who responds.. if anyone does, you’ll have some mad craic! a smile or two also is good so as they know it’s not malicious showin off… 🙂 and perhaps start observing musicians body language.. martin hayes & denis cahill being great examples.. sure, even frisbee sort of nods his head and ducks when he puts extra effort into a phrase.. these sort of things make sure i catch these little things easier!

oh, and sorry if this was long winded, unclear, and mis spelled again! 🙂

all the best,

martin.

“ I like the fact that pople who are not capable of geting together to play decent music have the freedom to get together to play s h i t.”
MG - I’m genuinely curious to find out what you have in mind when you refer to “decent music”. Diddly music played well? Some other genre of music?

I have to agree martin, i am constantly keeping my head up, ready for any change or what ever. musically there is nothing more frustrating than trying to catch someones attention to signal a change and their eyes are down. in their own world!.

For me the flow of energy is what its all about. If thats not there , then these days, neither am i!.
It is nice to play with top rank musicians, but also nice to play with mid rangers., beginers, i find too much, unless i am taking a class, and their money! 🙂

“beautiful art” and “communication” are different things. I’m still unclear what you’re getting at. Sorry.

But small sessions are by far the best anyway. (If I’m allowed to pick up that ball and run with it….) If I *do* understand what you’re saying, it’s this, or this is my take on it. In a big session, where you can’t hear your own individual playing, you just robotically join in with playing the notes, and there’s no incentive to play your best. But in a small session, you can hear yourself, others can hear you, so you’re out on a limb and you’re *forced* to play your best, and maybe some of your own artistry comes out (and this goes all the way down to “average” players like me.)

I’m not referring to technical ability at all when I refer to people who play s h i t. I’ve always said that one of the great things about this music is that it’s not technically difficult.

There are two edges to this however.
Firstly, the ease of it attracts a lot of people who think they can master it quickly and with not much effort. Especially people from other disciplines.

Secondly, a lot of potentially good players avoid the music altogether because they perceive it to be too easy.

Over the years, I’ve found no particular correlation between how technically good you are and actually how good you end up being. I know plenty who have no technical ability and are s h i t. And plenty with very little technical ability who’s playing I enjoy the company of very much. And, unfortunately, I know many many players who play with great technical mastery who just play s h i t.

I just could not agree more with Martin. Playing with people is all about communicating.

The concept OUGHT to be irrespective of technical ability, but sometimes (note that word please!) a musician of alleged superior ability to the rest in the session may decide that his collaborations are unrewarding and he will therefore cut down on his listening and start to do his own thing. At best this can show as lack of sympathy for the others in matters such as tempo, and at worst it can consist of the offender starting sets of tunes that no-one else knows, which enables him to showcase his own talents whilst the rest of us sit it out. Michael has said before that technical skill in this music is not the most important aspect. Whilst I couldn’t always agree with that (some tunes are a real bugger on a harmonica!) I do think that good listening is a wonderful thing to aspire to, and, as a positive offshoot from it, you tend to forget to worry about your own personal trip-up passages while you’re doing it!

Oddly, I posted that before I saw Michael’s.

Good thoughts here! Technical ability in and of itself is not all that a musician should bring to the table. The ability to share, communicate and interact with others is important, and sometimes lacking. Also, unfortunately, ego has a lot to do with it. As does dependability and manners. I have seen, unfortunately, a few technically fine musicians hampered because they lack the qualities of a good musical partner--and also, a few musicians of modest ability that everyone enjoys playing with!

Regardless of whether the head is up, down, or up the @sre is irrelvant to the learned skill of listening and playing well with other musicians. Martin’s concern is genuine; it is sure more fun to play with folks with a good set of ears, but it is a learned skill, just like ornaments.

i am scottish therefore not an irish traditional musician but still a session player. in my session experience in scotland and ireland playing any kind of traditional music (or any music - for that matter) its the buzz i’m certainly looking for.

i dont think a session in my knowledge is to be scrutinised but i think it should be organised enough so that the players are of at least a decent level and similar level to each other.

i dont think hierarchy and snobbery have any place in a session. if you dont get what you want out of the sessions you frequent, then don’t frequent them any more.

if you want something specific in your session start your own.

music is a form of communication in itself and can convey emotions. i think its all about personalities in the music and the performers. if you just play the same old tunes and dont move on whats the point?

the sessions i have had the most fun at had the following criteria:
1. on a sunday
2. musicians of a good to excellent level and a level of diversity invited to a venue of some sort (pub)
3. everyone really hung over

and the buzz for me is while playin a set of tunes, the tunes take a life of their own and its almost like the tune is controlling the players. thats when it feels divine in the spiritual sense.

i went to carnac, brittany on holiday and got involved in a session there in a typically french traditional music tavern in a town called Vannes called John R O’Flaherty’s!

there was a language barrier but that didnt matter. the music did all the talking and thats what it should be about.

if you dont get a buzz out of the musical environment you’re involved in either find another one or give it up altogether

“the tunes take a life of their own and its almost like the tune is controlling the players. that’s when it feels divine in the spiritual sense.”

I think martin is talking about something better than that. We often feel that the tune controls the thing and I can sometimes enjoy that, but it’s better when you are in control. There’s often a split second at the start of a tune when people are recognising it, then cranking on in there and you’re right, the tune takes over. There’s no reigns on it, it’s just heads down and power through the thing.

But I prefer it when the reigns are on. It’s not about speed, though often it’s easier if it’s a bit slower. It’s about making the effort to match your pulses. Making sure you are listening hard to the nuances of the other players, reacting, responding. Keeping on your toes for the unexpected. This is true ensemble playing.

brill comments again! and Llig! what am i going to do now for a sparring partner that we’re starting to agree! 🙂 lol..

this is turning out to be interesting because anyone who understood what i was trying to say seemed to agree about good communication in music as a desired quality… and as i said at the start, i would consider it the difference between artistic and non artistic music. so here’s the next part:

if we think that communication between musicians is a good thing, then why do we see so little of it? (when i say we, i mean i.. and i don’t lead a sheltered life!) maybe you are blessed and see alot if it?!! is it because we are focusing too much on playing in a correct traditional fashion? maybe if we were to play and communicate naturally how we felt, it would take us outside of the pure trad style as we do live in a world where we’re exposed to alot of different foreign elements and therefore bound to communicate them…

i’d a chat with a friend in a well known band and he forced me into giving him an opinion as to how his band could become better.. and my humble answer was communication between the members when they were on stage… and a bit of spontaneity.. now he agreed.. even though the arrangements were amazing and very artistic… it seems to be communication and the spontaneity of it that makes this music exciting… apart from altan where there is spontaneous improvisation.. i find it *almost* completely missing from the other bands on the scene…

so why do you think this is? and is this the quality which gives this genre its life and buzz in the context of duo or ensemble playing?!

TALK TO ME! 🙂

martin.

Reasons that communication is diminished include: shyness, stage fright, focusing on mechanics of playing the instrument, trying to remember the tune, being distracted by something else going on around you, concern that if you fall off track you won’t be able to get back, etc, etc. Only when you can put these distractions behind you, can you truly communicate in a musical manner.

For me, that magic communication is the best part of playing music, and one of the main reasons why I prefer small groups, whether session or band. My ideal size is usually three. The difficulty of achieving the buzz seems to double with each additional player. It’s great when it happens with five or six or more, but very rare.

“anyone who understood what I was trying to say seemed to agree…”

I’ll have to remember that one. Great debating weapon!

I’ll agree, not just because I can see the emperor’s new clothes 🙂 I need to get a good deal better technically before I can do clever things like pick up on someone’s variation and try it out myself on the next go-through. But I do see the beauty in that. Honestly, Martin: I do!

Martin, the whole world needs more communication, not just ue here.

Al nailed it though. Until folks feel comfortable they won’t be able to communicate.

That’d be US here, not ewe here, or you here, or whatever that typo is.

Al, “Reasons that communication is diminished include”:

“shyness”
That’s why it’s better to play with your mates.

“focusing on mechanics of playing the instrument”
this can often be difficult for beginners, but is to do with the way a lot of people are taught. Many people learn tunes by remembering sequences of finger movements. This introduces an extra layer into your playing that is counterproductive. If, right from the start, sounds that are heard are related directly to sounds that are produced, this extra level of thinking about mechanical finger movements is much reduced"

“trying to remember the tune”
This is a classic. If you really are listening, then you don’t have to remember the tune, it’s right there in front of you. What you are saying here is “trying to remember where your fingers go”. See above.

“concern that if you fall off track you won’t be able to get back”
Again, if your ears are open and you are not trying to think about combinations of finger movements rather than lines of melody, there is no problem if you loose it. Your company will guide you back.

Finally, “Only when you can put these distractions behind you, can you truly communicate in a musical manner.”
This is just back to front. All the above mentioned "distractions are directly solved by musical communication.

Martin, I think there is a fear of risk taking, not only in bands, but in sessions also. Which is crazy. People like to have that safe feeling of playing what they know. In a session sittuation that can mean head down and playing “your” version, even if it is at odds with others. And in a band it means playing what you have rehearsed.

I don’t know where this fear comes from. perhaps it has something to do with the fear of being recorded for posterity?Virtually everything gets recorded these days, especially gigs. It’s not good

well that gives me a new view point certainly…. actually i think llig’s answer concerning risk taking is probably a very true one… there is a pub in dublin where some of the bigger names play, often belonging to major trad bands and the music is still dead as a door nail with very little communication in any way..

when one see’s them on stage with their bands, they’re hopin’ and seem to be enjoying it… does that mean that the whole stage performance is just that? mearly an act? if so, which are they really not enjoying as much? the relatively dead session in temple bar for 50 euro, or the big energetic festival concert for 400 euro a piece! if they didn’t enjoy the session, they would have to do it for the money anyhow… but i’d wonder… it’s a funny old world!

anyhow.. i’ll be in the conradh givin it stick tonight if any of ye are around!!!

all the best,

martin!

Hope it went well at the Conrad, Martin? A gig, I presume? Or … don’t tell me they’re hosting a session, are they? I was in Dub last week - could’ve given it a try …

Music is a powerful way to communicate emotion. Playing music with others can also be intimate, at times more intimate than sex or fighting. Sometimes it comes down to how you feel about playing with other folks, and if you’re OK with intense feelings and being in close emotional proximity to others?

Michael, Good breakdown of the causes of those communication blocks I mentioned. And I like the fact that you turned it on its ear. Getting swept up in the music and truly communicating makes you forget to be nervous or shy or whatever, and that is when the fun begins!

The closed session can be used to refine your ‘art’. But, from time to time, why not get over yourself ~ seek something beyond what you already know. Travel to sessions farther away, go to music camps, do some busking old man. Refine not your craft but your spirit. Take advantage of the social aspect of a large session. You might just meet another player with whom you click. Even if the magic of music does not happen in that setting ~ do not waste an opportunity. Make the best of each situation!
Cheers

I play the fiddle in an eclectic ITM/American old-time session on the banks of the Mississippi River in Hannibal, Missouri. I’ve been playing these tunes for decades, while many of our players are beginners who rely upon chord-charts and sheet music. I confess that I get bored by some of the simpler tunes, but I derive enjoyment from walking around as I play, focusing on a particular player or two and attempting to energize them. It often works!