Single fine tuner

I know professional violinists only use 1 fine tuner on E string because fine tuners could damage the finish. Sorry for being naive, but how do the pros fine tune the other strings with out any fine tuners on them?

Sara

Um…with…the pegs?

Is there more to your question ?_?

--DtM

Well usually I find that the tuning pegs can’t make the tiny adjustments needed to get my fiddle perfectly in tune. I have read that if you use gut strings that you have to use the pegs and the fine tuners don’t really affect them.

Sara

Fiddle doctor topic;
https://thesession.org/discussions/4142

Sara, instead of getting it *almost* in tune and then trying to make tiny adjustments, have you tried taking it far below pitch and then back up in one fell swoop? (not too fast, of course; you don’t want to break the string). I find it’s easier to hit the pitch that way. And the more you do it the easier it will become.

It’s also good for the pegs to use them for tuning on a regular basis. Keeps them from sticking.

yes, that’s really the only way that you’ll be able to get them perfectly in tune- is to do it in one swoop. personally, i prefer the fine tuners, i find them easier- i’m sure at some point, when I’m good enough, I’ll want to take them off because I’ll be able to hear the difference of having them on or not. but i’m not there yet. :]

Small hints from my musician friends: if you’re off-pitch by a couple of cents and you don’t feel like fiddlin with pegs and tuners, press on the string in the pegbox (above the groove in the fingerboard, below the peg, obviously) just to tug a bit more of the string on the other side of the groove, bringing you a hair sharper, or just kind of wiggle the string on the fingerboard (really, just pluck it gently but in a bit of a wider arc) to loosen it down a bit instead.

Just don’t break the strings!

--DtM

Both my local luthiers recommend using a tailpiece with built in tuners if you want them on all 4 strings. Adding a tuner to a standard tailpiece adds a significant amount of weight, and shortens the strings on that side of the bridge, both of which can result in loss if some of the resonances that contribute to the sound of your fiddle. They work more smoothly too, and look neater.

The single fine tuner is only used because the e strings are always steel, even with a gut set (olives, eudoxa etc.). Gut strings stretch further than steel or plastic (nylon, perlon, zyex)strings for the same number of cents, so there is a lot more travel in the peg for a gut string. The 3 other fine tuners are more of a hinderance than a help with these strings. I think that they are slower to respond but have a good tone when played in. They also go off quicker than steel or plastic strings.

There’s a strong tradition in the classical world that you tune by ear, “swooping up” to the note, using the pegs. Gut or Perlon cored strings are much more suitable for this than all metal, but they’re the favoured strings anyway.

Theo, it’s likely that those luthiers may be looking at the single fine tuner from a more general perspective, which includes high end string quartet playing and the like. Somehow, I don’t think you’d notice the difference in a session 🙂 Wittner, I believe, make a synthetic material tailpiece which has just a single adjuster for the E, and the usual slots for ball-ended (or loop-end) lower strings. They’re probably looking at the peg-tuning market.

On my session fiddle I’m currently using Vision Titaniums (the old Helicore set has had its day), but with a Pirastro Eudoxa E. Fine adjuster for the steel E of course, but the others I tune from the pegs with no problems. Visions, btw, are fairly stable. I might have to do a little tweak halfway through a session sometimes, but that’s all. Zyex have a reputation for stability as well.

Eudoxa gut G and D are loop ended, so it wouldn’t be possible to use fine adjusters.

If you ever play real Baroque or Early Music you’ll likely be using a full baroque setup on the fiddle, which includes a flatter neck angle, shorter fingerboard, a different bridge, uncovered gut E, A and D, and a covered gut G (probably a Pirastro Chorda set), all peg tuned to A415 or thereabouts. And a baroque bow, of course.

In my early orchestral days I remember one or two violinists who used a gut E along with their other gut strings at standard concert pitch. Those gut E’s not surprisingly didn’t last long, so spares were an essential feature of the fiddle case. On my cello at that time I’d have a gut set, uncovered A and D, and covered G and C, all tuned from the pegs. The A would last for 6 to 9 months, the D for at least 12 months, and the covered lower strings for two years or more.

yes, if you want fine tuners on all strings, use the one with them built in…

but the need for fine tuners on all strings really has to do with the string diameter…a lot of “fiddlers”use them because the thinner the string (like someone above sort of stated) the less variance in length it has to bring it to the desired pitch…since most “fiddlers”use a steel or wound steel string, their string is going to be thinner. I don’t look down on people who have 4 fine tuners. It does not mean that they do not know how to tune. It is merely a matter of convenience.

Hey guys, this is a simpler problem than it looks. Most classical players use synthetic core strings, which are stretchy enough to make tuning with pegs not irritating (and also, well set up friction pegs are pretty easy to work with anyway). The E string has a tuner because it’s often not synthetic core. Violists and cellists quite often have a tuner on the A string for quick tuning when the tuning note is given. The root of this (for a lot of people) is the perception that extra tuners put weight on the tailpiece, which robs the violin of tone. Sometimes, people paint stripes on their cars because they think it makes them look faster, too. It’s not really a finish issue, as there are plenty of tuners out there that compensate by not having a decending mechanism, etc etc…

T.J.
http://www.cdbaby.com/hullksiazek

Metal strings are in fact much more stable with regard to tuning than synthetic. (That’s their main advantage, stable pitch and very quick response.) So that’s not the reason traditional fiddlers tend to use fine tuners on all strings.

The reason traditional players tend to use fine tuners on all the strings is that the tuning pegs need to be of a very high quality to use for fine tuning. American violinist and teacher Julie Lyonn Lieberman says “…well-fitted pegs are generally not always a luxury found on instruments in a $2,500 (and under) range… ( from: Improvising Violin, by Julie Lyonn Lieberman, page 69) [and that’s $2,500 in 1995!]

Liz Carroll only has a fine tuner on E. And Martin Hayes has a wooden tail piece with fitted tuners rather like the ‘Bois d’Harmonie’ tailpieces shown on this site: http://www.harmonie.net/
(“Alessandro” violin tailpieces look much the same.)

An American company makes fiddle pegs that are in fact fine tuners (neat), but they look pricey and you have to send them your fiddle to get them fitted. They look good though: http://www.pegheds.com/
“Perfection Pegs” from Knilling seem pretty much the same but you can buy them and get them fitted yourself. http://www.knilling.com/
(There may be a difference between the two, I don’t know.)

“There’s a strong tradition in the classical world that you tune by ear, ”swooping up“ to the note, using the pegs. Gut or Perlon cored strings are much more suitable for this than all metal.”

Surely there’s a strong tradition in traditional fiddle playing of tuning by ear (and amongst all musicians for that matter!) And I find no problem at all tuning the lower string to the fifth from below with metal strings. The E string, being the lightest, is the most likely to go out of tune, hence the fine tuner on E.

It’s argued that the optimal ratio distance from bridge to nut, and bridge to tailpiece should be 6:1, and fine tuners added to a tailpiece mess that us apparently - interesting! So we ought to do away with fine tuners in the long run! (As for me, I still have fine tuners.) Here’s an article on the 6:1 Ratio: http://www.gregdahms.ca/mysteriousbows.html

“…well-fitted pegs are generally not always a luxury found on instruments in a $2,500 (and under) range…"

that’s total b-s

pegs should be “well fitted”no matter what the price range of the fiddle

Sunnybear is right; if pegs weren’t made to fit, you should not be playing that thing, you should be throwing it at a luthier faster than you can say “You’re gonna tear your freaking hair out trying to tune that sucker”.

--DtM

It’s very expensive to get professional pegs fitted to a fiddle, as the work takes a very long time; check it out! Look at any violinist with a high quality violin, or Liz Carroll for that matter, when they’re tuning it takes no effort whatever for them to move the pegs. This is simply not so in many good violins, even fairly expensive ones; it’s just more efficient to use fine tuners.

Incidentally, the “PegHeds” tuning pegs can be bought and fitted by a luthier (starting at $149). [I think this was once the case, but perhaps it’s just a false memory!] The “Perfection Pegs” from Knilling look somewhat less salubrious but you can get them from: http://elderly.com/accessories/items/PVP1.htm for $79.
Of course they have to be fitted by an expert.

Okay, it is certainly true that you can use only the tuning pegs on a fairly good violin and not need to resort to fine tuners; (I know people who do). But it generally takes a deal more effort than with fine tuners; (there is often an element of struggle!) Really, really good pegs are very rare indeed on instruments that aren’t really expensive.

Have used steel strings for lots of years, always tuned with the pegs on three different fiddles, never a problem. For some years ago, I put on a fine tuner on the A. It’s hard to hold a tuning fork and use the peg all at the same time. Never been a fan of electronic tuners (apart from noisy environments), ear training is the best.

It’s not that only pegs an a good violin will work, it’s that whatever the quality of the fiddle, the pegs need to be properly fitted. Which is, unfortunately, a job for a luthier. Decent quality pegs make a difference, but the key thing is getting them properly fitted.

I’ve got 3 fiddles (not valuable but playable) and they’ve all been at various times to a luthier to have new pegs properly fitted. Later I fitted a Pusch tailpiece on the one I use most - looks like this: http://www.thestringzone.co.uk/cart.php?target=product&product_id=1377&category_id=120
It really works well, and because it has very light tuners and is made of ebony it doesn’t seem to have an adverse effect on the sound. It’s a bit of a fiddly job (pun unavoidable!) replacing strings - you reallly have to feed them in from underneath. I then tried the cheaper metal Wittner ones on the other two fiddles, and I’ve just given up with them and put the old ebony tailpieces back (with one fine tuner). The sound is transformed - so much better. I don’t think these metal tailpieces are any good except on a cheap learner fiddle that sounds dreadful anyway. Tuning with the pegs is the way to go and I’m trying to get better at it (without an electronic tuner except for the A). Tuning up the string by swooping up to the note as described by chadmills seems to give a whole more resonant sound to the fiddle, rather than tinkering around with fine tuners. Also the pegs turn much more easily the more you use them. I think it was about £40 to have a new set of pegs fitted - you spend nearly that much on a set of strings. Dan the Man’s tip - pressing on the strings in the pegbox or wiggling them slightly - is a good one. I’ve seen classical players do that.

I found when i used fine tuners, apart from a quality unit where they are built in, the fiddle would never stay in tune. Removing them was a blessing. the fiddle would be much more stable.

As i result i mostly use the pegs on my fiddles. A ‘swoop’ as described above is the way. This is pretty much the same method i use for all stringed instruments. If its not right first time, i just do it again till it is. This is also good ear training. Avoids the ‘’is‘it isnt it ?’’dilema with fine tuners, that constant minor adjustment!

“The root of this (for a lot of people) is the perception that extra tuners put weight on the tailpiece, which robs the violin of tone. Sometimes, people paint stripes on their cars because they think it makes them look faster, too.”

A fiddler/violist friend of mine once said to me, on being shown my fiddle for the first time, “Get rid of the fine tuners!”, explaining that they detract from the tone. I am not sure that it is quite analogous to ‘go faster stripes’ on cars, but I do have my doubts as to whether it would make any appreciable difference to a cheap fiddle like mine - given the poor state of the pegs, it would certainly be a major inconvenience.

It is worth noting, however, that the instruments of the violin family are designed on the basis of arithmetic ratios, the portion of the string between the bridge and the tailpiece being exactly 1/6 of the scale length (The tailpiece incorporates a ‘shim’ [I think that is the correct term] which, like the nut and birdge, sets the exact length of the string). Thus, when the open string is sounded, the lower portion of the string resonates at the 6th harmonic (2 octaves and a 5th above the fundamental) - and sympathetic vibrations are set up for various other notes as well. On a good violin, this enriches the tone significantly. Introducing fine tuners to a traditional tailpiece may alter the length of this portion of string, thus undermining one of the principles of violin design. There are some types of fine tuner which are fitted in such way as to preserve the proper ratio - such as those incorporated into the Pusch tailpiece (See RichardB’s link above).

non fitting pegs are not the fault of the fiddle.

…they are the result of every hack luthier and music store that thinks they can set up and sell a violin…

really, the price tag of a violin is so subjective anyway…do you really think the fiddle knows how much it costs and therefore how to respond to the things poking through the scroll?

Just go with your gut feeling

I’ve just tried the experiment on my covered gut-strung old fiddle of doing without the fine tuner for the steel E. I took it off the ebony tail-piece and inserted the ball of the E-string into the slot. The string tuned up easily and was by no means impossible, with care, to tune accurately by the peg.

Don’t try this at home, and make sure a responsible adult is with you at all times.

🙂

I took my fine-tuner-less old fiddle to a tune workshop last night (Thursday). No tuning problems. The sound of the Eudoxa E is now clearer and brighter, which I believe improves the overall tone. I’d put this down to the string being directly connected to the tail-piece, no energy therefore being dissipated through the mechanical parts of a fine tuner screwed to the tail-piece.

This is a very interesting thread with a lot of potential answers! I’m curious to know more.

Having bought a much nicer (and more expensive) viola in the past year, I can testify that the quality of the pegs and there fitting can increase dramatically with the quality of the instrument you are buying/playing. My old viola and my fiddle can be hard to tune with the pegs, although I can still do it just fine. the new viola, though is much, much easier. The pegs move smoothly, without sticking, making it way easier to get the pitch right. If your pegs don’t move smoothly, though, pick up some peg dope at your local violin shop, slip your peg out (not necessarily all the way), and apply a small amount to the part of the peg that comes in contact with the pegbox.

*their fitting

Be careful not to use too much peg compound, though, if the peg is sticking.

It can make the peg stick even worse if you use too much, and it’s a pain to remove from the peg holes if it causes a problem (I’ve learned this the hard way). Try just a little bit at first.

Good quality pegs are expensive. Fitting them so that they move smoothly is skilled time-consuming task. Both of these will contribute directly to the overall cost of a good instrument, and will explain why such pegs are rarely found on instruments at the lower end of the scale.