Progress and Practicing

Currently there is a nice civil discussion (what is this board coming to?) going on about advice on how to learn an instrument, fiddle in particular (See Tips for a Beginner…).

One of the frequent admonitions to beginners is “practice every day, even if it is only for a short time.” Sound advice certainly, at least the first part.

But my own experience is that when I started learning the two instruments I play now ( I have 35 years on one and just took up my second about 4 years ago, so the learning-from-scratch process is fairly fresh in my mind), I learned much much more, and made substantially more progress, as a result of longer, extended practice sessions than I did from regular short ones. If someone truly wants to make substantial progress, extended practice, along with regular practice, is a must. I practiced regularly, for sure, but the big breakthroughs for me on a given day often came in the 4th or 5th hours, when I could find the time/energy/inspiration to stay with it that long.

This is not surprising. If one only practices an hour a day, for most people, it takes time to get loosened up and remind the brain and fingers of what they knew at the end of the last practice session, and if one quits too soon, there is no progress, or very little.

People starting in on a new instrument certainly should be admonished to practice regularly. If one sets it aside for days or weeks regularly, there isn’t much hope of learning.

I also think people starting out should be encouraged to schedule regular or at least occasional extended practice periods. That’s where a lot of progress shows up, IMHO. I’d be curious to know how others feel.

I think that is why camps, workshops are so valuable. Not everyone is able to set aside long, extended practice periods (or be motivated to do so), but the experience of camps, or other extended playing, learning experiences, does propel one forward.
I would still recommend daily bits of time, but with opportunities for extended playing/learning experiences.

When I started studying with The Open University (distance learning, UK based) they stressed the absolute importance of working every day and having somewhere in the house set aside for working.

Well, sometimes I managed every day. Sometimes I’d have to do three weeks work in three days. Sometimes I worked at a desk in the spare room. Other times, in hospital, in the corridor outside my daughter’s music exams, halfway up a mountain and in an awful lot of car parks. Everyone else I knew was working under similarly less than ideal circumstances.

The point is, yes, there is an ideal way to learn anything, but for most adults it’s a compromise. We have to fit things in around other commitments. I’ve never been able to practice every day. I make the most of what time I have, and make sure that if I’m in a performance I have adequate time to prepare. Usually.

On the other thread, I did that educational theory comment and mentioned ‘chunking’. 😉

I have found that two regular 45 minute practices with a bit of time between works really well. As a working adult I agree regular practice is tough. (Youngest daughter came home from college over Christmas and we had to negotiate my box practice hours and her ‘beauty sleep’ hours since I normally practice early in the AM since someone has to work to pay for her tuition!)

Some weekends, if Herself is cooperative or otherwise occupied I can get in several long practices in…but I found they have most value when past the learning phase. They help ‘polish’ if you can call it that.

Since I try to learn two to three new tunes every two weeks (my tutors schedule) the short practices let me get the tune and bass down so I can do a few long practices to get the repetition once I know what I am doing.

Of course, a longer daily practice session will get you better results than a short one.

But if you don’t really feel like playing that day (it happens to everybody, I don’t care who you are) it is better to do a short practice than to skip it completely.

And once you start, you might change your mind and keep going longer. But if you don’t start, that can’t happen.

When I used to teach guitar, students would ask me how much they should practice. I just told them the time THEY chose to practice would be indicative of how much they want to learn.

When my son was learning, he would be up sometimes all night or early in the morning playing. My Bride and I would think someone left the Telly on downstairs, but it was him playing away.

I think the passion comes first. When that is there, there will be practice.

I have read here of our friends playing mandolin in their car for lunchbreaks, a silent electric fiddle by the fountain at a park (i still chuckle when I think of that story), a silenced whistle on an airplane. That is the passion that is required. The practice time is a measurement of the passion.

One of the most aggravating things in sessions is people who use sessions as their only practice time. AAAAAAAAAAH!

One thing that has always helped me is to have the instrument accessable in an instant. If it is safely away in a closet or under the bed, those few moments that present themselves for practice are lost. Guitar racks or instrument wall hangers or just a cheap version of the instrument on the couch or bed allow for those fleeting moments of opportunity. I rarely can be found andywhere without my whistle somewhere on my person. As the soup warms, as the wife shops, when the dog gets tired on walks, in line at the drive thru, waiting for road service, during global-warming-caused power outages….all these are moments for a tune or two.,,but only if the instrument is right there.

Yes by all means, play all day every day…… if you can, sure that is the way to leap ahead, with a lesson each day too! Ahh, I remember the days! Sigh,
The minimum is a bit every day, 10-15 min, every day.
Most of us will be somewhere between the two extremes.
As they say above , your motivation is the deciding factor.
Great posts,folks, a pleasure to read .


‘’One of the most aggravating things in sessions is people who use sessions as their only practice time. AAAAAAAAAAH!‘’
Seconded!

I’ll second wyogal’s recommendation for workshops / camps.

I’ve just come back from a couple of days at one which was really inspiring. You could find people all over the camp site sat in pairs or small groups practicing / teaching, and the variety of tunes was really inspiring. My new toy (Zoom H2 digital recorder) finally got a workout and I’ve at least ten tunes that I can playback repeatedly so I can learn them by ear.

The really great thing for me was that I could tutor a couple of people for an hour or two, then turn around and get other people to tutor me. And the total lack of egos in the whole setup was a major breath of fresh air - I’d just spent a couple of days playing the sessions at the Woodford festival where that wasn’t always the case.

Book yourself a workshop if you can, I’m sure you won’t be disappointed.

I’m not convinced there is any work for all practice and or attend learning events such as workshop regimes and I think we all have times (mine runs about 1 yr…) of getting nowhere and picking up.

If I was to make an observation though, over the years, the ones I’ve most noticed making what seemed to me like a sudden and dramatic leap have been those who’ve been spending a lot of (arguably misspent time, eg. they are at university but there is a session around each night where they are) “really playing” every day.

Of course that might inspire additional hours or practice on top - I don’t know…

I must admit, Jon, I couldn’t sit and practice for four hours, but I could sit in a session and play that long and still be disappointed when it ended.

Mind you, you have to get to the point where you have four hours worth of tunes you need to play…

People tend to fall into two types of learners--dabblers, and obsessives. Some people go from one phase to the other. From what I’ve seen, the ones who get totally obsessed with the music--at least for a few solid years--are the ones who progress the fastest and farthest.

So what’s “obsessive?” You’ll know you’re on the right track when the music interferes with your work, family life, exercise routine, and sleep patterns.
🙂

Yep!

Will, I like to think of it the other way.

Work, family, exercise and sleep get in the way of my music. 😉

bc_box, that’s what Kevin Burke said. He realized one day that his job was getting in the way of playing music, so he quit the day job and ended up playing with a bunch of bothies….

But consider this: most of us who work full time probably think we’re pretty good at our jobs. Especially if we’ve been at them for a decade or two. So imagine if we spent the same kind of time--40 hours a week, say--playing music. No doubt most of us would be more musically proficient than we are.

As a teenager, I went through several long phases when I played music 4 to 6 hours a day, 7 days a week. I also taught music for 6 years as a full-time job. That sort of concentrated time really does make a difference--you learn a lot, in both depth and breadth.

But there’s another aspect to progress and “practicing.” Improving your ability on an instrument isn’t just about playing the instrument. You can learn and progress a lot by mentally exploring the tunes even when you don’t have your axe in hand. Lilt them. Run them on an endless tape in your mind’s ear. Imagine variations. Listen to music. Read about the people who play this music. Learn about the traditions and culture it springs from. It all adds up.

And try to keep it fun. ****Play*** music. I’ve never cared much for “practicing” and it’s connotation of drills and scales and exercises. Music isn’t about perfection, it’s about expression. So sure, if some tricky bit begs for some woodshedding, go ahead and put some concentrated time on it. But find a way to make it fun.

I concur with ayedbl’s observation on long periods of practice, ie you get the breakthroughs this way. However, many people, myself included, simply don’t have the time for such extended periods of practice, what with job, family and other duties. If I can practice even a little bit every *other* day, I’m happy. Usually these days the only period of extended playing I get is 3-4 hours at my weekly session.

I wish I had more time to practice but let’s bear in mind that the traditional music we love wasn’t created by full time musicians

I havn’t practised for years, I can’t remember the last time I got the fiddle oiut in the house. I still get better though, and learn tunes.

You’re obviously just a natural genius, michael
🙂

No, and I’m not trying to boast. I practised a hell of a lot when I first started, 6 or 7 hours or more most days for a year or so when I first picked up a fiddle. It’s just that there is only so much technical skill you need for this music. Once you have this, improving becomes a much more of an esoteric matter. As Will says above, even just thinking about it will make you a better player. I hear tunes down the pub and sing them to myself all week.

And I find I enjoy the freshness I can give tunes that I have been no where near for years.

When you are learning an instrument, as opposed to learning a music, there is a certain amount repetition necessary to get muscles and brain co-ordinated. But physical repetition can cause problems with this music. You end up playing tunes to the limmitations of your instrument and ability where as if you just sing them in your head, the musical possibilities are much more varied. Then when you get to sit down and play them with your mates this freedom comes out.

I know what you mean michael. Was just kidding you. I think I’m at the stage now where, even if I did have the time to do lots of practice, I don’t think I’d improve much anyway - and I’m not saying I’m particularly good, just that I think I’ve probably almost reached MY limit.

And to go back a few postings--agreed, once you have the basic skills, you might as well drop the scales and arpeggios and just play tunes. But I think longtime players can forget how many scales they played in the early days, to get that intonation automatic.

I also think it is always a mistake to look for big “breakthroughs.” That makes it a win/lose situation--if you don’t make a big leap, you are disappointed. Better to enjoy your small successes day by day, and build on them. Playing for years is a marathon, not a sprint. Slow and steady wins the race.

I concur with virtually all the above… the corollary of which is… No practice, no progress. I think Will CPT put it right a thousand threads ago - just by playing the tunes, it’s practice and pleasure combined. Take joy in your accomplishment, and be critical enough to know it can be better.

I like Kevin Burke’s decision.

Mickray, I never have practiced scales, not even in the early days. You can learn the intervals (relationships between notes), patterns, and proper intonation just as well by simply playing the tunes.

Students of mine learn the whole and half step patterns of the common scales (ionian, aeolian, dorian, mixolydian), but I don’t ask them to play them repeatedly. They learn to hear the differences by playing tunes in those modes.

Which gets right to the point drone makes above--playing the tunes is “practice” and fun combined.

If a student of mine is struggling with intonation, I’ll take a phrase out of the tune s/he is learning and walk them through how it sounds and feels when your fingers are in the right place, and how to listen to the other notes in the phrase as reference points to help keep the miffed note from wandering. But it’s still about playing the tune.

OK, then, Will, glad it worked for you. I did two years of kiddie orchestra to get started, so that’s the method I am familiar with.

But a scale is just a really simple tune, isn’t it? No tricky alternating of the fingers, just one after the other, so you can concentrate on finger placement, keeping the bow on the correct string, etc. A good way for a complete beginner, especially a young kid with limited physical coordination, to get something recognizable out of a difficult instrument.

p.s. We also did Twinkle Twinkle LIttle Star and Far Far Away, so we didn’t completely neglect tunes. ;>}

To clarify, i dont mean the modes, when i say scales, simply the major scales in all keys. That way all the mechanical stuff is done, The D major scale for example, will give you7 modes, four of which I would use regularly.
Personally I think folk who dont and havnt practised scales are missing so much. I cant see what on earth would cause someone to avoid such an important part of making music, Lads, WHY dont you play scales? what do you gain? If you havent practised scales what makes you think they are not fun?
When I see classical musicians and trad musicians who cant freely improvise I am amazed. Same as I do when I see folk who cant learn/play by ear, I just think its a bit sad. I dont mean to offend I am just speaking my mind.

Playing scales is like learning to run on one of those treadmill things in your bedroom. You start by walking, set the thing a little faster and learn to walk a bit faster. Then you learn to jump in between steps and pretty soon you’re jogging along nicely. Except you are still in your bedroom.

Lets just be clear here, Llig have you spent time working on your scales?
If you have, then why argue against something you have done?
If you havent, how do you know all this?

Regarding scales: my fiddle teacher dislikes scales, and has never assigned me to practice any, for many of the reasons that Will and llig and others have given. Two decades ago, however, I studied piano under an old-fashioned teacher who assigned me scales every week. As these were classical lessons, we restricted ourselves to three modes: Ionian, harmonic minor, and melodic minor. I practiced many of these in the eight or nine years I took piano lessons.

Lately, I’ve been doing some serious woodshedding on intonation on the fiddle, mostly by isolating fragments of tunes and practicing them very slowly. I often find it difficult to play jigs and reels slowly, so sometimes I’ll start my practice session by playing a scale or two, because I am less inclined to rush through scales, which have less internal momentum than dance tunes. And I’ve noticed something interesting: my intonation on ionian scales is pretty sound: if I’m off, I notice at once, because close to a decade of practicing ionian scales in a variety of keys has given me a pretty good feel for what an ionian scale is supposed to sound like. But I don’t have a similar feel for dorian, mixolydian, and aeolian scales, because I haven’t put much time into practicing (or listening to) them as such. ALL of those scales sound off to me, even when my intonation in playing them is near-perfect, because I’m just not used to hearing those scales. For the mixolydian and aeolian scales in particular, I find myself going sharp on the seventh, because my classically-trained ears aren’t accustomed to hearing a full tone between the seventh and eighth notes of a scale. However, when I am able to force myself to play, say, a jig or a reel in aeolian mode sufficiently slowly, I am quite good at playing in tune (and noticing when I’m not), because I’ve spent a decade or two listening to *tunes* in that mode.


So I am not convinced that there’s anything intrinsic to the structure of scales that makes them better than fragments of tunes at developing intonation. I’d be inclined to say that scales are *worse*, simply because they’re not ingrained in our subconscious the way that tunes are, and you have to do the work to get them so ingrained in order for them to be of much use, intonation-wise. (A year and a half ago, I had no feel whatsoever for what an E dorian scale was supposed to sound like, but I had a fairly good idea of what the Swallowtail Jig was supposed to sound like, and the latter is infinitely more useful to me when I’m practicing the Swallowtail Jig.) I don’t find scales entirely useless, though, but that’s only because scales are sufficiently bland that when I play them, I can pay attention to tone and intonation without rushing through them, or trying to maintain the beat. (Mind you, even that has backfired - I have a reel in my repertoire that includes a one-octave A major scale, and recently I found myself zipping through an inadvertently syncopated A major scale during a warm-up, no doubt with the associated tune in mind.)

Okay, since we’re talking about scales now, here’s what my teacher taught me to do:

1. Play a scale, one note per bow, focusing on good intonation, strong solid tone, clean finger-bow coordination, and clean string crossings.

2. Play it again, two notes per bow, same bow speed, focusing on the same things plus even bow distribution and even spaces between the notes.

3. Repeat, doubling the note/bow number each time, up to 32 notes per bow (I can’t do better than that).

I do these about 10 minutes every day, sometimes more. I find it has a few advantages over playing only tunes:

a. It warms up my fingers so my tunes sound better.

b. I can play them faster than I can play any tune, so I’m getting practice playing fast that I wouldn’t get otherwise.

c. They’re just boring scales, so I don’t feel bad if I mess them up, the way I would if I messed up a tune.

d. They’re purely for technique, which I find is easier to focus on when I don’t have to worry about the musical element of tune-playing.

Anyway, this is why scales work for me. I’ll do anything to play better, and I find that they help, so I don’t mind doing them. I could never do without the tunes, though, as Jig suggests! My boredom threshold isn’t that high!

I am simply arguing for major scales, not the modes, all the intervals are in a major scale. The mechanics are accomplished with major scales, no need to play the modes. As you say, they dont sound right.
Perhaps I am missing something but i couldnt see one reason not to play scales in any of the above arguments. All i see is the pro’s of playing tunes, no cons for playing scales, do bring them to my attention if you can find any.
But I rather doubt you will find any. There are disadvantages to basic scale practice? what?
They are obviously in addition to tunes.
The fact is that the folk who are arguing against something , by their own admission have never done them.
Its not just intonation you know, there is a lot more to it than that.

Jig, they’re BORING. How’s that for a con?

‘’I could never do without the tunes, though, as Jig suggests‘’

Hang on, when did i suggest that? I have allways said, learn to play the instrument first[scales etc], then play what you like.
Learn your tunes on the whistle first.
Its no coincidence that the whistle is generally the first instrument taught throughout Ireland.
How long you need to play the scales etc first before trying to play a few tunes is a personal matter.
Scales are not boring kennedy, its how you view them. Your state of mind.
You certainly sound like your on the right path. Good for you.

Try playing a scale like it means something, if you can do that, think how easy it will be to make a decent tune sound inspired.
As with any art, its not the mechanics but the spirit.

“Hang on, when did i suggest that? I have allways said, learn to play the instrument first[scales etc], then play what you like.”

Jig, I’ve been learning for a year and a half and only now am I beginning to play scales decently. Should I have only learned tunes on whistle until now? And wouldn’t that have meant that I would have had to endure a year and a half of playing nothing but scales on the fiddle?

That’s too much even for my obsessive personality. I would have quit long ago with that kind of system.

“As with any art, its not the mechanics but the spirit.”

No, it’s also the content. There’s a reason you tend not to find musicians playing scales (in however spirited a manner) in Irish pubs.

Maybe. but perhaps your intonation and scales would have got a lot better, a lot quicker with your determined focus. We are only talking about major scales in first position after all. and for trad only in a few keys too, no reel need for Ab or B etc.
The thing is you didnt do it so you dont actually know if you would have quit or not. Right? How much faith do you have in yourself? Im betting you would stick to it if you saw the achievements you made.
Actually to be honest, its a short cut 😎.

My poor head is reeling with the back to front nonsence of all this.

It’s stated that scales are easier than tunes, but if you can play a scale like it means something, think how easy it would be to play a tune. The whole concept is pure bonkers. It’s like making a little kid learn to recite abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxwz over and over before they are allowed to say dadda or mamma. Of course you’ll be able to say mamma or dadda with exactitude if you learn to say abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxwz first. AAAAAAAGGHHH

Come people, get a grip will you.

Okay, jig, using your method, what’s the shortest period of time it’s taken you to have a student play a clean set of scales, similar to the way I’ve described---good intonation, strong tone, even notes, good bow control? Obviously we’re talking about an average-to-above-average student here, not a prodigy…

and in answer to the question put to me on the other thread:

Of course I’ve done my scales. Because I’ve done my tunes. Because scales and tunes are technically the same thing. Scales are just crap tunes

But TDAM, the tunes are all composed of notes you find in the scales, in phrases you find in scales and arpeggio, and patterns. So Actually …..
For your information, when ever I pick up my fiddle the first thing I do is run through scales, phrases, double stops etc to check its all in tune, everything vibrates harmoneously. I play scales etc like this every day , its fun, it sounds good, I can warm up without having to conform to a fixed form. I have been doing this on the fiddle for 15 yrs and will continue to do so.
Same goes for my banjo, guitar etc. Its instinctive,
Scales, Arpeggio, chords. and combinations of them. It feels good.
It means i can improvise in a number of styles, freely. It means i can sing through my instruments without concern for technique.

I did my scales on piano when I was 7. I’ve never wasted any time on them on any other instrument since.

Conceptually, scales are simple compared to tunes, but not as “sticky.” For kids and adults, it’s easier to remember tunes than scales. When they learn by ear (which is mostly how I teach), a scale is harder for them to remember, unless they strip it down to “put one finger here, then the next finger here,” and so on. But then they’re learning less by ear and more by the mechanical act of finger placement--which soon becomes an impediment to playing real music (which is the point, after all, of learning to play an instrument).

For me, there’s only one reason against playing scales--it’s not necessary. Anything you can learn from playing scales, you can learn by playing the tunes themselves, or tuneful phrases, or individual notes (say, when you want to concentrate just on some basic aspect of bow technique).

And being unecessary means that time spent “practicing” scales (as though the drudgery of it is the only way to perfect your intonation, or learn how to improvise) is time wasted, time that could have been spent making music.

(I knew a classical violinist who spent two hours every day, seven days a week, for 40 years, playing nothing but scales. Then she’d put in another two hours on pieces of music. She was good enough to play second string in a small city orchestra, but her playing sounded lifeless and mechanical to me. Her intonation, however, was excellent. But no better than mine was in half the years spent playing fiddle.)

In short, learning music does not have to be a linear, mathematical process. When you learn to play by ear, playing actual tunes, you learn to ***hear*** the relationships among notes so you can refine your intonation *and* learn how to imrpovise to your heart’s content.

Some students come to me with preconceptions about how to learn music, based on experience with other teachers or other genres. Some of them ask, “Should I practice scales?” I tell them they can if they want, but also ask them, wouldn’t they rather learn a tune? Maybe even a tune that clearly revolves around a basic scale pattern, like My Darling Asleep or Tripping Upstairs.

After more than 30 years of teaching music, I’m pretty convinced that understanding some music theory (like scales, modes, circle of fifths, time signatures and rhythms) is a good thing. But it makes ***a lot*** more sense to teach this to people once they can already play music and have a context (not to mention a motivation) for learning and applying the theory.

Just my two cents (in about $40 worth of ink.) 🙂

It’s just occurred to me Will that maybe your calm response compared to my “AAAAARRRGH” has something to do with it being late in the evening where I am and you’ve probably just had your porridge?

Kennedy, its not about time, its about ingraining habits, If Pablo Casals, at age 70 kept on practising because he though he was getting better, then thats good enough for me.
This scale thing, for example.; When you can play your simple major scales, perhaps you might then choose to play the Ab Bmajor d# etc then in double stops. in third then 5th position, then higher etc ok thats where I am at, double stops in 5th 6ths etc. so thats 15yrs its taken me, fair enough i play alot of tunes too. but it took me that first year I played seriously to achieve any real reward, where i felt i was starting to sound ‘ok’. I will probably have had a go at a few simple jigs on the middle strings in tha


Llig, your analogy falls apart upon first inspection.
Scales are like mama dada, dada mama ., A tune is like; Please will you get me a cup of milk dad. because im thirsty and I cant actually walk yet., with some honey in it ok? thanks dad your a star.!…… First things first.

THe thing is you never practised scales so you are arguing from a position of ignorance. you dont actually know what you are talking about, you dont have experiance of what we are arguing for. eg;. Scale practice includes arpeggio, and patterns. say like 135642, 246753, 357864, 468975, 57910,86. etc or 123,234,345,456,567,678 etc or 1234,2345,3456,4567,5678, etc etc etc.
the numbers refer to the notes of the major scale.
It could well be that you achieved what you wanted without practising scales, good for you. I guess it depends on what you , or I as individuals want to achieve.
I mean you practised a lot for a year, and that was it eh.? out to the sessions, scratching away, hiding behind the other musicians no doubt! My guess is that you still do! Without evidence to the contrary …..Sorry I dont mean to offend🙂 . Im not totally serious but……..

I could be wrong, but I suspect that the first humans to make music didn’t start by defining scales and mathematically determining the intervals between notes. No, my hunch is that 20,000 years ago, people were chanting and singing lovely music without any notion of scales and arpeggios.

So Jig’s notion that “the tunes are all composed of notes you find in the scales” strikes me as precisely bass-ackwards. In fact, scales are a formalization, an institutionalization, of the notes of tunes that existed long before anyone thought of practicing scales.

It’s convenient that we’re talking about this in the context of Irish trad music, a music that sprang largely (if not entirely) from people untutored in music theory. So this music is full of sounds outside the “generally accepted principles” of music the way it’s taught in conservatories (I know--my brother went to one, has a degree in music, and arranges scores for orchestras and composers around the world). Irish music does things like Dinny O’Brien’s (https://thesession.org/tunes/1667) and Luka’s Wake (https://thesession.org/tunes/7869) and micro tones, and smears. Little of which makes sense when you come at it from the usual line up of scales and arpeggios. But it makes wonderful music.

Incidentally, if forced to play a scale on fiddle, mine might come out like this:

|D2 D/D/D ~E3F|(3GAG AB ~c3d|e/f/g f{a}g ~g3z|
🙂

Jig, please don’t fall back into your habit of insulting people’s musicality and implying that anyone who disagrees with you is somehow less of a musician. You’ve never even heard Michael play.

Mikey, I’m just going out for supper now---burritos, mmmmmmm!

‘’Mickray, I never have practiced scales, not even in the early days‘’
‘’ I did my scales on piano when I was 7.‘’

Ah, now which is it will? 😉

‘’as though the drudgery of it is ‘’

Drudgery!, come on , its not that bad! how about 40 yrs of opperating a machine tool in a factory! now thats drudgery!

‘’(I knew a classical violinist who spent two hours every day, seven days a week, for 40 years‘’

One example does not make a rule. Anyhow, Intonation is but one aspect of scale practice. Im willing to bet her intonation in the high positions in octaves and shtuff was far better than yours eh?

‘’But it makes ***a lot*** more sense to teach this to people once they can already play music and have a context (not to mention a motivation) for learning and applying the theory.‘’

Now that makes a lot of sense, i couldnt agree more. So on the fiddle you have an A chord with 1finger and a g chord[ ok double stop.] with no fingers, put the two together, in a regular pattern, bow with a basic rhythm . voila music. A lot easier than learning a tune. You have the backing to any number of reels and jigs.

Jig, you said it’s better to learn scales etc. before tunes. I said scales are boring and would have made me quit. You said it you way is a short cut (which is an incentive). I asked you how much of a short cut. Then you said it’s not about time, it’s about habits.

Well, after 18 months, I have those habits, *and* I can play a few tunes. So what makes your way better than the way I’ve been learning?

‘’You’ve never even heard Michael play.‘’ Fair enough will, but i have heard far too many scratchy fiddlers who bring there fiddle out after a year or so of playing , hide behind the folk who can play. And it sucks. Some of them still do after decades of it! cant turn a tune on their own to save their life! Why should I think Llig is any different? All the evidence so far indicates that he is not. Perhaps he really is an exceptional fiddler, I just have to go on what he says here.
Liz Carrol, Liz Doherty,, these two are exceptional fiddlers, and there are plenty more, is Llig in this league? I certainly am not .

Will, once again, I dont Imply, If i want to say something I say it. I dont imply. That is not something i do. It is something you read into my words. not what i put into them. Please dont put words or meanings into my mouth.

We all have to remember that there sometimes, is a great cultural gap between us, as well as a great big physical one.

Kennedy, you are playing scales!. What makes you think i am suggesting anything different to what you are doing? perhaps you started your tunes earlier than I think is to your advantage, but come on, I dont know you, or your teacher, or what you sound like. We are all individuals, perhaps you are a fast learner.lucky, gifted, a hard worker etc etc its up to you to decide not me. I simply offer advice whether you or any one chooses to follow some or all of it is up to you. Why should I care?
All i can do is offer one view point, my experiance.

From my experiance I am absolutely convinced that a thorough grounding in the basics of technique is the route to personal success. I know from decades of study and years of teaching that it is highly advantageous to isolate aspects of technique for concentrated study.
At the same time, all the technical study in the world wont prepare you for the real thing. This can only be achieved by going out there and doing it.
It is not either/or, but both.

“What makes you think i am suggesting anything different to what you are doing?”

My impression is that you are advocating for no tunes at all until the scales are well in order. Except on whistle, of course. But I’ve been doing both, right from the beginning. I just think I couldn’t have stayed with it if I couldn’t have tried the tunes as well, because of the boredom factor.

Which kind of leads back to the original notion of this thread---length of practice. I can do 15 minutes of scales pretty painlessly now, maybe even 30 if I’m in the mood. But give me a new tune, well, I’ll sink my teeth into that and go for hours, just on that one tune. Surely the motivation to practice, and thus improve more quickly, comes from the love of the music?

“i have heard far too many scratchy fiddlers who bring there fiddle out after a year or so of playing , hide behind the folk who can play.”

This speaks volumes about your ideas about how people learn, jig. I brought my fiddle out after far less than a year of playing, and while I was self-conscious, I didn’t HIDE behind the people who could play - I LEARNED from them. And I continue to learn from them. If I waited until I thought I was good enough to play in public, I’d never play in public, because I always see how much further I have to go. Playing with people who play far better from me has been as good a *learning experience* as learning one-on-one, during lessons, from my (highly competent) teacher. The two modes of learning complement one another. And the folks at sessions, unlike you, have for the most part been nothing but encouraging of me: the musicians at one particularly memorable out-of-town session, *after* I told them that I was a baby, barely over a year playing fiddle, insisted that I lead the first tune.

The fact that you bring up Liz Carroll and Liz Doherty in this thread is laughable. No, I don’t play anywhere near as good as them. Should I throw my fiddle off the balcony now? Or practice scales until someone deems me ready to play tunes as well as they do? Is that what they did?

Sounds good to me Kennedy, if you can play a tune, it sounds good, then keep at it. Hours on one tune! Great stuff.

Im not particularly interested in students who arnt all ready highly motivated. If you are not highly motivated then find something that does motivate you.
Say kennedy, why not try this; buy a whistle , learn a tune. while you do this concentrate on your scales etc on the fiddle. when you know the tune on the whistle, figure it out by ear on the fiddle. I reckon two weeks will do it. This requires extra time for the whistle on top of your normal fiddle time, but the fiddle time is spent on your scales patterns and arpeggio. bowing, intonation.etc Try a scale in a broken rhythm. say;
4 quarter notes followed by 2 pairs of triplets, repeat.
2 1/2 notes 1 triplet. repeat .
Invent different exercises. take a tune play each phrase or bar 10 times. use your imagination.
Perhaps it will be boring, so be it. perhaps you will get over that and step up a level.
What motivates you?



TDAH, I am glad you have such helpfull and understanding session mates, all the best to you. Im not sure what the problem is in mentioning a couple of outstanding fiddlers is?


‘’If I waited until I thought I was good enough to play in public, I’d never play in public, because I always see how much further I have to go. ‘’

And? What is the big deal with playing in public? what is wrong with playing at home for a while? I make no bones about saying I think people learning an instrument should spend enough time to get a bunch of tunes down with a nice pleasing tone before going out to a session to play. specially on the fiddle!
I know, you want to be part of the session, but really that requires some effort at home first, whats all the hurry?

No dont throw your fiddle off the balcony! To be honest
I seriously doubt whether you or I will ever be able to play as well as they do
I am well sure I will never ever be able to😎 And so what? I dont want to[ he says!] I want to play like me at my best. thats it
The only person worth competing with is yourself.
I could be mistaken but I bet they spent time playing scales. I bet they spent years at home with their own motivation before getting out there in the sessions.

Jig, I’ve never wasted time playing scales on ***fiddle.***

My intonation up the neck on fiddle sucks because I don’t play above 2nd or 3rd position often at all. On fiddle, I play Irish trad music (which is why I absent-mindedly keep hanging out on a website called thesession.org). I don’t need to play up the neck. And on mandolin and guitar, it’s easy--the fret installers have taken care of intonation for me. And I know lots of great Irish fiddlers who’ve never bothered playing scales up the neck. That would be like carp taking flying lessons….

Your insults toward Michael say more about you as a person than about Michael as a fiddler. In fact, they mean absolutely nothing about Michael’s fiddling or musical abilities, because you’ve never heard him play. I have. In the unlikely event that you’d stoop to listening to anyone else’s opinion, I’ll just say that you’re wrong, by 180 degrees, about Michael’s playing.

Will, you seem to think scales are about intonation alone. If you play the guitar do you play in first position alone? or do you know all your scales all over the neck?
>>Your insults toward Michael say more about you as a person<<
What on earth are you talking about? I havent insulted Llig at all. That a very strange thing to say.

The only comment i made was >>I mean you practised a lot for a year, and that was it eh.? out to the sessions, scratching away, hiding behind the other musicians no doubt! My guess is that you still do<<

OK so he has improved, does that mean he never ‘’scratched away‘’? maybe so, but questioning some one ability is not an insult will. I wonder why do you want to suggest it is?







And back to the subject practise and progress;

From my experiance I am absolutely convinced that a thorough grounding in the basics of technique is the route to personal success. I know from decades of study and years of teaching that it is highly advantageous to isolate aspects of technique for concentrated study.
At the same time, all the technical study in the world wont prepare you for the real thing. This can only be achieved by going out there and doing it.
It is not either/or, but both.

LOL, jig, you’re more interested in being right than in having a discussion. Enjoy yourself. 🙂

I’ve often thought about the difference between the way I learned the guitar and the fiddle. I’ve done, and still do, lots of exercises, including scales, on the guitar. But, in thirty years, I haven’t played thirty minutes’ worth of scales on the fiddle. I see the scales mainly as calisthenics - good for developing strength, stretch and posture. I think it was Will who said that fiddle playing requires little strength, but lots of finesse. Guitar requires a heavier ratio of strength to finesse and I think that’s partly why I find the guitar scales to be useful. I play much better (guitar) if I warm up with a few minutes of scales, rest a few minutes and then play music.

The funny thing is that I also play better fiddle after warming up on guitar. But I never noticed the same effect from playing scales on the fiddle, i.e., it didn’t make me fiddle any better. That’s why I quit doing it.

These tunes we play don’t require a lot of scale work and, for me anyway, fiddle scales don’t provide useful calisthenics. I’m sure it’s a different story for classical and jazz violinists.

I’m curious to know if anybody else has experienced the post-guitar fiddle boost I described. If I play guitar for ten minutes and then go to fiddle, my fingers are more agile and my intonation is better than if had spent those ten minutes just playing fiddle. For guitar, the fingers do the same kinds of things as for fiddle, but they *overdo* them (from a fiddle perspective), so that now the fiddle work is within an easier zone. Does that make sense?

I am not clear if this discussion is about the usefulness of scales on fiddle, or on any instrument - the original post was not about scales at all.

Could it be that different people learn in different ways, and for those of us learning as adults we are starting from a base of different experiences ? I seem to remember that that was what someone trying to calm one of the many ‘usefulness of written’ music’ “discussions” suggested.

Any how, after years of negligible progress at learning tunes, or getting tunes that were in my head out through my fingers, I think that it is practising scales over the last year ( whistle and flute) that has got my ears, brain and fingers (but not eyes) tied together in away that allows tunes to start crawling out. The first breakthrough was being able to play in G single octave tunes that I had learnt in D (or vice versa, and the mode was irrelevant) without consciously engaging my brain. Next one was this christmas when I discovered that there had been a couple of dozen simple tunes (carols) lurking in my head for a couple of decades that would now come out through the fingers.

Sure, one could practise simple tunes or fragments of tunes rather than scales. But tunes are supposed to sound like tunes. And if they are ITM tunes some people (especially here) get very upset if they do not come out having have certain charactersitic features. With scales one can mess around with the rhythm or, say, play alternate notes loud and quiet whilst trying to maintain the intonation, or switch octave, without any danger of developing a wierd rendition of something that matters.

Anyway, scales worked for me. And they are something I can try in the morning when I have to leave for work in ten minutes and the caffeine has not yet woken up any tunes.

Interesting f point,david. morning practice. generally the first thing i do sat with my coffee is pick up my fiddle or banjo, my fingers are still perhaps asleep? I have much more success with tunes in my evening and afternoon sessions. I find the mornings much more conducive to technical work, mind you saying that im not much cop at anything much in the morning!

Hmm, Wil, you seem more interested in being right than in having a discussion. Enjoy yourself. 😎

Bob, why would it be different for the guitar to the fiddle? As you only spent 30 min doing scales on the fiddle how do you know whether they would have helped your fiddling?

As to your point, i havent noticed myself, but i do notice that playing tunes and stuff on my 6 string bass certainly effects my guitar! after that the guitar is easy!

(Back online, after a doctor visit for tendonitis, a gig, followed by a power outage due to howling winds)

Nice thread. I would be proud that my offhand comment generated it, but I know better--any excuse will do, for this bunch.

Just for the record, I almost never “don’t feel like playing” myself. And I only do a short practice session if I need to ration my playing time for physical reasons, like lately (I was controlling it really well, honest… long story)

When I say “scales” I mean just the fingerings for the common keys. Not even proper scales, really, just all the notes in first position. All that modal stuff goes right over my head. Never did spend a lot of time on arpeggios. I still think the “scales” I’m talking about are a good way to get the “chord shapes” drilled into your head at the start, and make it all instinctive.

Nope, the analogy stands:
Making beginners play scales before tunes is like making a little kid learn to recite abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxwz over and over before they are allowed to say dadda or mamma. Of course you’ll be able to say mamma or dadda with exactitude if you learn to say abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxwz first.

I’ll spell it out for the slow whited:
dadda or mamma is communication, it is language. Maybe not as clever language as “Please will you get me a cup of milk dad. because im thirsty and I cant actually walk yet., with some honey in it ok? thanks dad your a star.”, but language all the same.

Do you need to learn to say abcdefgh (etc) before you can string together a complicated semtence? Whould it even help?

Notes make music

No where in the alphabet do you have a common phrase , or word. None. So your analogy is not even close to being relevant. There are numerous phrases encapsulated within a major scale.such as ABC#. or GF#E,C#BA, etc etc etc.

g … y r u n n m e

And just like this example, when you find a phrase in a tune that has the same sequence on notes in a scale, it’s just a coincidence. Practice at that scale might make it easier for you to play those notes in the tune, but it surely won’t make it any easier to play it musically

As somebody pointed out earlier, there is no one single “best way” to learn something, for everybody--there’s always more than one route to the same destination. There’s no need to be insulting when someone’s opinion differs from yours.

I agree, there is no one single “best way” to learn something, If you think scales would help you, then the mere placebo effect alone means they probably would.

However, There’s is a world of difference between that and making beginners under your tutorage play scales and scales and scales for months before they are allowed even a whiff of a tune.

Michael--thanks for the gesture, that certainly does sound reasonable. And for what it’s worth, I don’t teach fiddle, myself. Not qualified, by a long shot. Doesn’t keep me from shooting my mouth off, though. ;>}

Ok, disclaimer again that I am new (the other post regarding frustration and tips for a beginner was mine)…but in light of this scale/no scale debate, I do have a question -- hate me or love me later for helping beat a dead horse -- but I am interested in your responses.

Does the practicing and playing of scales and arpeggios include looking at actual music?

Cause here is what I am struggling with…I am attempting to approach this whole tune acquisition thing by ear and can play quite a few tunes but honestly couldn’t even tell you what notename I am playing when. I mean, I could figure it out if I thought about it… but really as I play I am listening to match pitch and might think “2nd finger on the E string” but rarely do I ever think “play a G”…. So, trying to imagine how I would approach scales and even worse arpeggios (especially something as complex as what jig suggested below) without looking at written notation.

“Scale practice includes arpeggio, and patterns. say like 135642, 246753, 357864, 468975, 57910,86. etc or 123,234,345,456,567,678 etc or 1234,2345,3456,4567,5678, etc etc etc. the numbers refer to the notes of the major scale.”

not at all, though it would help to supply you with exercises. If you take a tin whistle in D and blow each note from bottom to top you have the D major scale, So if you listen to this sound and the steps and try to reproduce them, perhaps get someone to play it for you, or record it, play allong. voila , patterns and arpeggio are a bit trickier. If you look at the numbers above they refer to the note of the scale , so the scale would be 12345678.
I advise you to find a helpfull musician or teacher of any instrument. Helpfull!. explain your situation clearly., scales are universally practised on all instruments, Some self taught musicians might scorn them, buts thats because they havent done them.
bottom line, get someone to play them for you and play allong.😎

>>g … y r u n n m e<<

sorry is that meant to mean something? or be part of the Alphabetical sequence?
That is your example?

Hitting the right note is the most important thing. What you call it is just semantics, really. (“The word is not the thing. The map is not the place.” Or something like that--S. I. Hayakawa said it, you can look it up if want.)

But it is better to call the note “a G” rather than “2nd finger on the D string” if you are trying to communicate with a non-fiddler.

If you are an advanced enough player to worry about it, you probably should just learn lots of tunes. They are full of arpeggios and bits of scales. imho.

oops, I meant 2nd finger on the E.

Heres a relevant quote from jerry Holland, the composer of Brenda Stubberts reel and cape Breton Fiddler;

‘’One of the things that was a help to me was playing scales, as hateful as that can be… playing scales in the different keys, in different modes, and so on. Scales, and matching them to a piano that’s tuned well, is a starting place, anyway. When I was learning, I had a piano, and I played the guitar a bit as well. So if I was in question as to whether I was in tune, I could compare it against the piano or the guitar and make a mental note of it. You go through the do re mi fa soh kind of thing in your head for each key that you’re playing; that’s a basic starting place for keeping the intonation sharp in every key…….‘’

gee … why are you an enemy?

you are not using your ears. just reading. Typical

Ahh, i get it, still cant say its very convincing, Gee, is a word? I can read without vocalising by the way, a string of unconnected letters is not a normal way of communicating is it? still clever enough and a bit amusing, 3out of 10 😎

and a string of unconected notes is not a normal way of playing music. Keep your brain cells ticking, you are nearly there.

I should like to congratulate both Will and Michael for holding out elegantly and beautifully on this thread against the consummate digger of holes. You are both so right and you both espouse in your advice all that which is encouraging to would-be players of ITM. You pair of buggers have gone up muchly in my estimation, as if you’d care, but fair dues anyway to the both of yers!

Sorry, is this a mutual appreciation society? 😎


Progress and practiceing.

All i can do is offer one view point, my experiance.

From my experiance I am absolutely convinced that a thorough grounding in the basics of technique is the route to personal success. I know from decades of study and years of teaching that it is highly advantageous to isolate aspects of technique for concentrated study.
At the same time, all the technical study in the world wont prepare you for the real thing. This can only be achieved by going out there and doing it.
It is not either/or, but both.

Hmm, if all the technical study in the world wont prepare you for the real thing, they why bother with it? Or do you actually think that all that technical study WILL prepare you for the real thing? Brain cells not warmed up yet?

Because it makes you a better player Llig, though as you seem to consider your self all ready perfect and dont need top practice then that idea will presumably find no space within your conceptual framework.
As you clearly state you have not practice scales and arpeggio you are obviously not qualified to comment on there effectiveness as a tool in the study of music.

round and round and round we go:

“Of course I’ve done my scales. Because I’ve done my tunes. Because scales and tunes are technically the same thing. Scales are just crap tunes”

And crap tunes are BORING.

Boredom is a state of mind, an attitude, how you view what you are doing. Id go so far as to say there are no boreing tunes, only boreing players. After all some players can make great tunes sound boreing, and not so great tunes exciteing.
A scale is not a tune, it is a technical exercise.

But you said, “all the technical study in the world wont prepare you for the real thing.”

Absolutely, there is no substitute for playing tunes.
Scales and arpeggio, patterns etc are additional exercises to train certain specific aspects of playing. They are not a substitute.they are an aid to help achieve certain specific technical aims.. Once those aims are accomplished in isolation the skills acquired are reintegrated .
You Llig came to the fiddle from the mandolin. Your ear was trained to recognise the tones you were aiming for on the mandolin, others dont have that advantage, any thing that allows us to achieve our aim is worth pursuing.

I don’t play mandolin or fiddle, but even I know that the last sentence there makes no sense whatsoever.

Yeah, I had a head start with the fiddle, I knew ball park where to put the fingers and I kind of knew a rake of tunes. But I never did scales on the mandolin, just tunes.

I’m just not interested in technique and one of the great advantages of this music is there is no need to be interested in technique. Learn the tunes, play them and the technique takes care of itself. You seem to be obsessed with technique and it’s just so pointless. I remember you recommending to a beginner a book by Menuin? Come off it

Say no more.😎 i get the picture. Pointless? Hmmm, If I wasnt interested in technique Id still be a crap fiddler like i was 15 yrs ago……

Give up, jig. Michael has the spirit. And that’s all there is to this wonderful stuff we play. You can smell someone who’s spent half their life playing scales a mile off.

Bloody Nora, I’m calling you “jig.” Sorry, t….

Give up what steve? progress and practiceing? like you and Llig? no way !
Well neither of you practice though perhaps you still manage to progress inspite of yourselves…….
When are you going to contribute something usefull to our discussions, sycophantic comments like the ones above are not really helpfull for anyone apart from bolstering the huge ego of the receivers of your lavish praise which appear to be large enough allready 😎

Same with will for that matter, he came to the fiddle after years of scale practice on other instruments, a head start.
Mind you so did I but I certainly needed scales and stuff, I see too many poor fiddlers condemned to poor intonation for the want of basic technique. I for one refuse to be restricted by any stylistic boundaries.

you wouldn’t know poor intonation if it bit you on the arse, you check your intonation to a bloody tin whistle.

You’re completely free to do whatever you want, jig, and if you like playing scales, good luck to you, but why insist that they be inflicted upon others when they are not necessary ? Learning tunes is fun. Practising scales is boring. Learning ITM should be enjoyable, not a penance.

If there was ever a time to admit defeat and that you could possibly be wrong, now would be it.
I doubt it’s going to happen though.

That’s the best laugh I’ve had all week. I’m sycophantic towards Michael. 😀 Now come on. The deep suspicion I feel emanating from him through the ether every time I agree with him is palpable.

Llig, what are you on about? do you actually play with a whistler? you play trad i presume?
Beg, another what are you on about? admit defeat? is this some kind of battle? or contest? that might explain some of the strange attitudes i encounter here. Well to in form you, its not, its a discussion. your view point seems to be held by a small minority of musicians who may or may not be able to play there instruments with any quality of sound. We can give them the benefit of the doubt but I do start to wonder reading the rubbish that gets posted here under the guise of their opinion.
While the pro scales argument is supported universally amongst the best musicians in the world. What music they wish to play is their choice.some play trad, some play jazz, some play Baroque .
Are you really suggesting we take Lligs advice over that of Jerry Holland, Yehudi Menhuin, Stephan Grappelli, Oscar peterson, Martin Hayes, Matt Canitch and the rest? give me a break . You must either be on a huge ego trip or simply out of touch.

jig, it’s perhaps not surprising that you become entrenched in an untenable position, when you miss the point that’s being made. Scales and irish trad, e.g. Junior Crehan, is not the same scales and jazz, e.g. Stephan Grappelli. We’re talking about Irish trad.

You insist that a scale is a technical exercise. But then so is a tune.
Or, another way of looking at it, a scale is a sequence of notes, and so is a tune.

When I said scales are boring (and even Jerry Holland admits they are hateful) you said boredom is a state of mind, nothing to do with what you play. Well, you might get a thrill out of playing ‘Twinkle, twinkle, little star’ over and over and over aand over, but any teacher who told me I had to do that wouldn’t see me again. People who have taught me stuff made it really exciting, so I was desperate to learn more as fast as i could.

jig, it’s perhaps not surprising that you become entrenched in an untenable position,‘’ ha ha, and that is?…..

You misconstrued Jerry Holland by the way.
Wolfbird you seem to be determined to hold on top your entrenched position that scale have nothing to offer you, I presume then that you are allready a brilliant, top notch player, good for you. Would you like to demonstrate your amazing skills for us so we can really hear your sublime playing?

Really If you have experiance of something then fair enough, you are qualified to comment on its effectiveness for you. However for a dry land swimmer telling us what its like to get wet i hope you excuse me and understand that I prefer to rely on Matt Crannitch’s advice rather than Llig or Wolfbird. Untill you can demonstrate your point, i will rely on experts for my advice not self proclaimed ones, but real ones. thank you…
untenable…ho ho ho. hark at who is talking😎

Why don’t you demonstrate to us some of your sublime playing, jig old boy, instead of taking sideswipes at what you suppose to be other people’s shortcomings? A link would be nice. Don’t worry, you can always conceal your identity.

I am in the process of doing so , my philosophy has allways been i would rather leave recording untill i am better than i am. however tthat has meant that after 30yrs i still have very little record of my playing. Which is ok, as music is an ephemeral art. and all the countless masters from the history of man up untill the last century have worked under theses limitations. However, recently I have decided to conspire with another musician and record a few ol tunes. and perhaps stick some bits and pieces on you tube. pretty busy though.
Anyhow remember In this discussion I stand next to the experts. they demonstrate their points quite well I think?Or does the luminaries here consider they are better players than say Mr Crannitch? or Jerry Holland to quote 2 examples out of thousands.

So if you go quiet here for a few days we’ll know what you’re doing.

jig, i’ve read enough of your comments on this site to get a fair idea of your depth of musical insight, (let alone your insight into human nature), and I have sufficient musical experience to know when you are talking a load of cobblers. Have you noticed how you get yourself boxed into a corner by making nonsensical dogmatic statements, which force you to make ever sillier statements, all in defence of an over-inflated ego ? If I thought that practicing scales helped me become better at irish trad, I’d be practicing scales all day. Fortunately, I can achieve far more satisfying experience, and progress more quickly, by playing tunes. What i like best about this music. It’s fun, not drudgery. You stick with your scales, jig. And your advice to go for a run before playing.

Yeah yeah yeah wolfbird. typical, you are the one with an indefensible position, so instead of arguing with intelligant debate you resort to petty personal comments.
I wonder some times if folk are going to pick a fight that they havent the sense to choose one they can win.

So you disagree with Matt Crannitch and all, and you are a great fiddler and you know best. Grand ,work away. enjoy your self.
Over inflated ego? ho ho ho, theres the kettle calling the pot black. Im not the one saying that I know best , I am relying on the considered advice of some of the best, world class, fiddlers. Where did you get your advice from? yourself? or Llig?

I am more than happy to keep an open mind, which is more than i can say for some poor folk here, a minority I am sure.
You seem to be describing your self and your position far more than mine. Perhaps you might consider the advice given here even, shock horror! or are you so full of your own beliefs that there is no room for the advice ? A zen proverb about cups of tea springs to mind. Empty yours so that it can be filled with the wisdom of ages.

A few paragraphs up the page you were complaining about people making fights, jig. As I said, you just get sillier and sillier. You’ve gone through this same pitiful process repeatedly on this site, and yet you learn nothing.

Funny, in all the lessons I’ve had over the years with Kevin Burke, Sean Smyth, Cait Reed, Oisin MacDiarmada, John Carty, Brian Conway, and on and on, NOT ONE of them ever mentioned scales, let along practicing them. They all taught Irish fiddling by teaching ****tunes.****

Why would anyone here repeatedly denigrate someone’s playing without ever having heard their playing? That’s the most untenable position of all, and an affront to the many excellent musicians who inhabit this site (I’ve actually heard some of them play, and they’s be welcome on any professional stage or recording, if that’s your gold standard of proficiency).

Boys, apparently Jig is so far up his own digestive system that he doesn’t realize how arrogant, condescending, and dogmatic he’s coming across here. It may be a permanent blockage. I suggest we leave him to the proper care of his proctologist….

Where’s Bliss when you need him? He probably not only played with all those blokes Will mentioned, but taught them as well.

A few years back I attended a concert by a saxophone quartet which featured a piece in A minor that featured lots of scales, turned out the composer was a piano tuner by trade, composer by passion, but the music was moving. Personally, I learned scales on the piano way back, I am glad i did as they have been useful tools. That being said, am not at all convinced that scales are the only way to learn that stuff. And I do not do scales any more, when I sit down to play, I want to do tunes.

IMHO, it all comes back to listening. Play the stuff you will listen to. you are really training your ear. If you play scales, listen carefully.

Yes, that last paragraph reminds me that when I get too tired, lazy or distracted to listen it is time to stop.

This;<<Or does the luminaries here consider they are better players than say Mr Crannitch? or Jerry Holland >> Does not equate this;>>repeatedly denigrate someone’s playing>.

Perhaps by repeating something clearly untrue enough times you think it will, by some form of osmosis perhaps? become true? That reminds me of a technique called black propaganda, used to great effect I note by numerous repressive govenments throughout the last century and beyond.
It is simply untrue. I asked a perfectly reasonable question, instead of a perfectly reasonable answer we are given missinformation.

Once again, when the argument is lost , personal attacks are launched. Typical.
Wolf bird, your comments do not deserve a comment. As a ‘green anarchist’ i would have though resorting to misinformation was beneath you.


I wonder why on earth we can not stick to the subject.. This is about music remember? progress and practice.?
So anyhow…..

I like to cycle my practice routines, Covering two instruments mainly per cycle. At the moment I am concentrating on Viola and Banjo.
I find that upon returning to an instrument that the work done in its last cycle has become internalised.
I imagine its like a child growing. the growth occurs at night when sleeping. Same with body building. The rest period is essential. this is where the repair and rebuilding is done.
For me, focusing on a different instrument means that i can return refreshed, gain ig the advantage of rest, yet continueing to practice and improve.
This is called cross training.
Although you are not directly working on a particular thing, in this case an instrument, the other stuff you do, none the less will help you with that instrument. Another argument for scales. though the practice is not focused on the primary aim, tunes, there is still a skill crossover.

Traditional music is special. In a world obsessed with blues and rock, and especially the guitar, all you hear is pentatonic this and blues scale that and every guitar book out there is packed with technical mumbo jumbo. I played guitar for several years before I knew what a“hammer on” or a “pentatonic scale” was… I just didnt learn that way.

Im equally as ignorant on the fiddle…. rolls, crans, dorian scales, I dont care… And Ive found that the older traditional players in many styles really didn’t care about scales-arpeggios etc. … Irish music is all about the tunes and each one is an experience, not a set of notes on a page.

Applying standardized scales to traditional music is really innacurate and missing the boat. I can’t tell you how many times ( and I know Im not the only one) Ive listened to a traditional player play a tune supposedly in “G” and hear other notes besides GABCdefg…. but the sheet music doesnt show that…

It really irks me when I hear “trained” musicians knock intonation on the fiddle from traditional players… (Im not talking about the obvious beginner’s bad intonation,) it’s ignorance.

Then why is it just fiddlers? pipers, and whistlers , concertina players, singers dont have this problem.
pipers and singers both use the just scale. I dont know about the box’s
I can not play blues, thge pentatonic scale has nothing in it for me. I use traditional modes.
I am not knocking anyone, some old fiddlers had poor intonation. so what? thats not a problem, its a fact. If someone wants to judge that,or not, it is their right. I dont. I simply aspire to play like certain players and not other players who’s intonation was not so hot. Their rhythm ornaments and tune variations are great. lets be honest with our selves and others. Not hide behind a myth.

Its not just fiddlers Im talking about. The pipes, the strings, the bellows… the music goes way beyond scales and ornaments. Listen to the way Matt Molloy barks out the tunes --- James Galway doesnt do that and it cant be written down… its expression. For me personally, practicing scales and modes is something I dont do.

Dont worry jig, I got called names when I said global warming is a controversial subject. I am a veteran of the famous deleted environmental thread. I was compared to Cromwell, Flatearthers, Yahoo’s, Ignorant--- blah blah blah- for having a sense of humor.

Never listened to Galway so could’nt say. Matt however is as fine a player you could want.
Of course it goes way beyond technique, but getting the technique is a step on the path.

I see your point, but its not absolute… I dont like absolutes… you have it all wrong--- fine player? Yer wrong!

Molloy is a b s o l u t e l y the best trad. musician on the planet!
(I know I’m right.)

He is certainly one of them😎

Since you dont agree with me jig, I have to call you a name.

You’re nothing but a hornpipe!!!!!!!!!!!

🙂 better than being a waltze over

I was thinking of posting a dreaded waltz… but I resisted the temptation.

https://thesession.org/tunes/8153