Practicing scales and arpeggios

Hello,
I’m a beginning fiddle player, and I need to practice scales and arpeggios in G, D, and A major and E, D, and A minor.

I’ve practiced a few scales, but as far as arpeggios, I’m not really sure where to begin. About all I know is that an arpeggio is the three notes of a chord played individually (right?)

If anyone has any hints or suggestions on practicing scales and arpeggios, I would greatly appreciate it. I’m new to The Session, and I’ve already found it to be a great resource.

Many thanks!!

I like scales and arpeggios coz i’m a classically trained player now playing trad tunes!

For the easiest ones (that’s G, D and A major Arp)…play it for one octave first of all which means…

open G,
then 2nd finger, B
open D
then third finger. G
There’s your G major arpeggio!
For the other two, D and A, simply play the same finger pattern but for D start on the D string,
similarly for A, start on the A string

hope this helps! 🙂

IMPORTANT: read all this before you go any further:

https://thesession.org/discussions/16264/

Well personally I just practice major scales, as the steps in the modes are the same just starting from a different note. , So G, C D and A would be all i suggest you concentrate on.
The idea is that you find a referance , say the tin whistle, and play each note slowly and carefully, each time you make a mistake, ie it doesnt sound right, start again at the begining.
So after a while you will be able to play G major from the bottom string up to the high B, and back down with good intonation..
Also play little sections of the scale, 3 note groups. .
At first i have to say concentrate on your right hand bowing to the exclusion of the left hand alltogether, playing open strings,working on smooth control and a steady tone. The weight of the bow will mean you need less pressure the nearer your hand approaches the fiddle.
Once you can bow a steady tone then try your scales.
Arpeggio are, as you say the chords spaced out, so you have the 1st tone, 3rd and 5th. then 8th
Practice Am arpeggio. G major. D major. Em. Amajor.



You really need a teacher or friend who has been there before to show you the way. There’s only so much you can get from words on a page.

Stuff and nonsense, get stuck it and play tunes

I severely doubt i could have played tunes as well as i do currently if i didn’t learn the nitty gritty basics of scales an arpeggios so, llig lejhydsfskscim, you give bad advice!

What is the point of learning a scale when you could learn a tune ?
Then learn another tune that contains another scale. Then you’ve got two tunes in your repetoire, rather than two useless boring scales. This is irish widdly diddly music, from an aural tradition, not classical music where theory rules. All you need to know is the right places to put your fingers, and then listen, listen, hear, hear, the noises you are making. Who even cares what the noise is called ? If it sounds right, it is right. (IMHO) 🙂

maybe if you’d spent your scales time on playing music instead? Just a suggestion?

I’ve said it on another thread a couple of times and I’ll say it again: Scales are just crap tunes

The other discussion is excellent for bashing scales. It is a mini-pep rally. Scales, arpeggios, tunes, modes . . . are all good. But that is the last thing you will hear on the mustard board. How about this ~ do what you enjoy, use anything which helps your playing, listen to what everyone says, & decide for yourself.
;)

“maybe if you’d spent your scales time on playing music instead?” llllllllllllig

then i wouldn’t be as good….learning scales develops your musical ear, or at least it developed my ear hugely!

Of course scales are crap tunes, because they aren’t meant to be tunes! Just like saying ‘ere that ant is a crap elephant’…coz it aint supposed to be an elephant!

“learning scales develops your musical ear”

And learning tunes doesn’t develop your musical ear ??

Yeah, learning scales develops your musical ear. So does playing tunes. Why would scales better better at it than tunes?

Yes, scales aren’t meant to be tunes. The fact that they are just crap tunes is more of a coincidence than anything. Or it might be easier for you to look at it the other way round? Tunes are really really interesting scales. How about that?

Learning Mrs. McLeod’s is a really fun way to learn a scale 🙂

“Why would scales better better at it than tunes?”

because, technically and musically, scales are perfect

Perfect for what ? You mean, tunes are imperfect scales??

I’m trying to picture Scully Casey (Bobby’s father) sitting around the oul’ peat fire, late into the wee hours, sipping a little poteen…… churning out scales and arpeggios.

And little Bobby, listening from his cot, memorizing all those scales and arpeggios.

And Scully teaching the lot of them to Bobby and to Junior Crehan.

Just the thought of it makes me giggle. 🙂


What’s the difference between a tune and scales/arpeggios? People enjoy dancing to tunes.


If anyone really is all that desperate to “practice their scales and arpeggios,” I’d suggest the following tunes (in no particular order):

My Darling Asleep
Belfast Hornpipe
Harvest Home
Rolling in the Ryegrass
The Green Hills of Tyrol
The Noisy Curlew
Tam Linn
The Silver Spire
Staten Island Hornpipe
The Shetland Fiddler
Drowsy Maggie
Off She Goes
The Golden Keyboard
Pigtown Fling
Pretty Maggie Morrisey
Wind that Shakes the Barley
Ships are Sailing
Tripping Upstairs
Maude Millar
Sligo Maids
Bucks or Oranmore

The beauty of “practicing your scale patterns and arpeggios” in these and other tunes is that *****you’re learning to hear them in context, as they make sense in this particular musical tradition.***** That’s the most important thing you can do when first learning this music--get your ear accustomed to the idioms and cliches of the language of Irish trad music. So you’ll learn something like |GBdB eBdB| not as an isolated arpeggio, but as a piece of dance music, with it’s own sense of lift and pulse and place within a tune (even a specific type of tune--a reel, or perhaps a hornpipe). In short, you’ll learn that such an arpeggio isn’t an arpeggio at all but a phrase of beautiful melody, with a built-in timing that causes people to tap their toes and dancers to float above the floor.

And when you’ve got the “scales and arpeggios” down from that list of tunes above, there are thousands more tunes with loads more scales and arpeggios to practice…..

ROFLOL….

It develops your musical ear to recognize scales & arpeggios
in tunes. & vice versa.

Perhaps no one should practice crans?

Perhaps no one should slow down & repeat the tricky parts of a tune?

Aren’t you missing the point here, Muse ? Crans and tricky parts are part of the tune. If you start putting crans and tricky bits into a scale, you’re well on the way to making a tune. No?

OK, I can accept that your musical ear will develop if you learn to recognise bits of tunes within scales and arpegios. But just think about that for a moment. Are you really saying that that is a good use of your time, when you could be learning to recognise bits of tunes in other tunes?

“Scales are just crap tunes” - quote of the day, I love it. I guess that makes arpeggios crap chords.

If you are going to take the route of daily self inflicting pain, then you may as well go all out:
http://www.amazon.com/Scale-System-Exercises-Major-Minor/dp/0825804132

The Carl Flesch book is the most widely used book for snooty classical violin teaching. Every teacher I had modified the fingerings (3 octave scales), but in later years I went back and worked the originals fingerings too. They’re fine.

May as well do the 3 octave ones while you’re at it. Change to a new key each week.

Just remember, if all you practice is scales and arpeggios, then all you can play is scales and arpeggios.

Okay, here’s my take on scales and what they’re good for---I use them to warm up my fingers and my intonation. Not always, but sometimes, on those “off” days, a good ten-minute session with a few scales irons out any rough patches and then the tunes sound better when I start playing them. They help me relax. Maybe people with more playing experience don’t need to do this?

I use tunes to warm up my fingers and my intonation. Not always, but sometimes, on those “off” days, a good ten-minute session with a few tunes irons out any rough patches and then the tunes begin to sound better. Tunes help me relax.

Sigh.

There are plenty of traditional fiddlers who play scales. Martin Hayes, for one. I know several fine Irish fiddlers who do. It doesn’t make sense that there is only one correct approach to this. That’s the classical way of doing things!

Sounds like my routine, kennedy, though your attention span appears to be longer than mine. (10 whole minutes on scales??) As I said in the other thread, scales, being boring crap tunes, lack the momentum that the faster tunes have, so I’m less likely to rush through thhem than I am through tunes. When I am feeling impatient, I am inclined to rush through tunes, which is useless as far as practicing goes. So I’ll play a few minutes of scales, slowly, and that’s enough to slow my breathing and my heart rate enough to work slowly on the tricky bits of tunes that I need to practice.

So that’s the virtue of scales, for me: they’re dead boring. I spend 95% or so of my practice time on tunes and fragments thereof.

I’m not knocking it Kennedy. If you think it works for you, then the placebo effect alone means it will. I just don’t undersand that’s all.

TDM, do you not think that a good exercise might be to try to play 10 minutes of tunes slowly without rushing through them. Slow enough to slow your breathing and your heart rate. Seems to me that if you are having problems with rushing tunes, the best way to fix it would be to try not to rush them.

Scales are good for practicing intonation, because it’s easier to hear when you’re off when playing a scale.

But I wouldn’t spend too much practice time on scales. Most of your time should be spent practicing tunes, because that’s the only way to get the bowing patterns down. Scales won’t teach you the bowing, and a whole lot of what makes fiddling fiddling is in the bow.

Playing scales once in a while is fine, and if you’re having trouble with a certain note doing a quick run up the scale can help you find the right spot for your finger. And they can be useful for memorizing the fingering patterns for different keys.

But scales aren’t as useful in fiddling as they are in classical playing. In fiddling you don’t really need to know many keys and you’d gain a lot more from bowing exercises than from playing scales, and even then there’s no need for special bowing exercises when playing the tunes does the job.

Michael, (and you know I have great respect for your knowledge), that’s just a wee bit condescending, don’t you think? Attributing everything to the placebo effect? What I’ve been taught is that scales, etudes, and tunes all reinforce particular handshapes. This weekend I spent some time doing the two-octave A major scale. I can play several tunes in A, but they stay mostly in the upper register, so when it came time to playing the whole steps on the G and D strings, I had much less experience with that, so the scale shored up a weak point for me. I don’t think that’s a placebo effect.

“TDM, do you not think that a good exercise might be to try to play 10 minutes of tunes slowly without rushing through them.”

…which I do, and I am often able to do better, llig, after playing some bland exercises that are bereft of rhythm and drive and pulse. Gets me in the right frame of mind to focus on playing slowly.

I think scales are important for intonation on fiddle as we have to rely on muscle memory to find our pitches. This is a hard enough job as it is, and it’s nice to have something simple and predictable to warm up on.

I think there should be an FAQ on this site, and if it were up to me, the answer to this particular question would be as supplied by Will CPT which is sums the matter up most admirably.

https://thesession.org/discussions/16301#comment337883

wolfbird I am playing tag.
I mentioned crans because they are an example of
something you learn 1st by practice & repetition & 2nd by use in a tune. It is quite obvious that if you add articulations to scales you are on your way to playing the tunes.
They really are related. I am not even advocating for ‘more’ scale practice. Only as much as one person needs. If it improves your playing it does not have to require very much time. If it does not help then do not practice that way.

Heh, there’s a very similar discussion on Melodeon.net on
“Useful exercises and workouts to improve melodeon playing?”

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,97.0.html

it also got into scales and all that, this was my reply,

#############
** Warning, I’m going to be an awkward bugger and probably overstate my case **

Hmmm, scales. In all my years of playing I have never been requested to give a public recital of scales.

Is there some rule that the more esoteric or boring the practise is, the more “worthy” it is?

Surely, the technique that you need to play tunes on the melodeon is that which you use to play tunes on the melodeon. If any tune required me to play a continuous scale over two octaves, then I’d practise that. Since I’ve never come across a tune that requires that, I’ve never seriously practised it.

I well remember, as a young child at junior school, going along to recorder lessons where we were not allowed to play any tunes, just stultifying exercises to recorded “plinky plonk” piano music accompaniment. I soon jacked it in and luckily for me was given a tin whistle by my father. What a release!

Of course I’m not saying that *technique* should not be practised. Triplets, runs (as you find them in tunes), getting the bass end going and all that. That is, stuff that you will actually find in tunes. Do I want to practise sterile nonsense that has no link to folk music? No.
##########

llig leahcim, I love your comment that scales are just crap tunes, spot on 🙂

Try the Heathery Breeze and you’ll have the best of both worlds (arpeggios and a tune all in one!).

Woodchopper’s Breakdown is great for arpeggios, too, Bannerman. Actually, kennedy, if you want a more musical A major workout at the bass end of your fiddle, you might want to try this one as well.

When i first picked up a musical instrument, I wanted fun. For me, practising scales was very, very boring. Learning tunes was fun.
I think you have to have a masochistic character streak to insist that scales are ‘a good thing’ for irish music. But each to their own. Whatever turns you on, as they say.

Kennedy, all that Michael (and myself) is suggesting is that you can gain the same benefit of learning those lower octave A scale pitch positions by playing a tune down there. You can even take some other tune that you already know well and just drop it down a string.

Reenactor, “muscle memory” is the last thing I’d want to rely on for getting my intonation on fiddle spot on. I much prefer to use my ears. Intonation is not something we “feel” with our fingers, like reading brail. It’s something we ***hear.***

Jaysus, now that I’ve typed it out here, that seems so obvious. I’m sorry if that came out so blunt that it skinned anyone’s emotional knees….

You’ll find that finger placement actually changes slightly depending on what key/mode you’re playing in, too. On fiddle, the F natural in F maj is slightly different than the F natural in Gm. And you’ll also need to tweak your finger placement when playing with a piano, say, which is tuned to equal temperament, as opposed to the Pythagorean intonation used when playing solo, or just temperament intonation for playing double stops and harmonies with other string instruments.

Will, that’s funny, I was just about to post about how scales helps with transposing between keys. I’ve done this with several recordings (from Dervish and Frankie Gavin, among others) where they play a half-step up, which effectively puts tunes in keys like Eb, which is useless to me at a session. So I learn the tune by ear, learn the intervals, then bring it down to the key I want. Don’t need software for this, just a really good knowledge and feel for the scales and intervals.

And don’t worry, I’ve followed your advice about warming up with a nice easy tune. I do that sometimes. But I do scales too. I’d stand on my head and play if I thought that would help.

Will,

*grins* I don’t think anyone would dispute that hearing faster is the key to fiddle intonation. However, the thing that makes beginning fiddle players do lame stuff like play notes flat on the G string? Improperly trained muscle memory. If their hands remember to get them in the ballpark, then their ear can take care of it.

I don’t know if you teach beginners, but one of the best things for them is to learn hand shapes and half-and-whole step relationships between their fingers to start with. Kids don’t start off with finely trained ears, and neither do most adults. It’s the muscle memory, or lame little tapes on the fingerboard, that are going to help them get started.

Scales and arpeggios are two different things. I never ever practise scales when I play the box. Wouldn’t help me at all. Instead I do arpeggios quite a bit and work on hard transitions to get to a certain level of smoothness. It saves me time and frustration in the long run.
I don’t know if there are any bandoneon players out there, but if you want to start off practising scales on five octaves with a seemingly random keyboard layout, you are facing a formidable mountain of boredom, whereas it’s better to learn phrases that are pleasurable and actually sound like music. My experience.

Yup, reenactor. Listening is what allows me, after having placed a finger a few millimeters too low on the fingerboard, to recognize that I’m playing flat and slide my finger up to the correct pitch. Muscle memory is what allows me to to place my finger in the right place to begin with every single time I pick up my instrument. (Or, at least, it will, eventually. Right? Right?)

I just thought about this again, and to be really honest about this subject, I realized why I started to get serious about scales a few months ago (and this is not to disagree with anyone at all). I’d been playing about a year and my teacher asked me to play a scale and I couldn’t play one very well. Just a simple D major scale. All that time so focused on tunes, and I couldn’t make it work for playing a scale. It was embarrassing. So I started practicing scales. And now I can play them better---and I find that my intonation has improved quite a lot. Maybe it’s a coincidence, and I don’t know for sure, but I don’t think so.

So, how many of you nay sayers have actually practised your scales? it beats me how someone who has’nt done something can comment on its effectiveness.
Are you saying there is no room for improvement in your playing? That your happy to disregard the lessons of professionals musicians of all genre’s?
I am not speaking as a classically trained musician, this is not a debate about classical music vs trad, or its teaching methods. Simply a trad musician who learns from anyone who can help me.
Of course we want to play tunes, Its not as if I play any less tunes than other people, just that i play scales and stuff as well.Are you all so good at this that there is no possible room for improvement? If not, then why close your mind to something recommended by many of the finest musicians in the world? you think they are wrong? That you are right? Out of curiosity. can any one quote a famous well known player who has gone on the record to say they never practised scales? Im interested.

I came to fiddling from classical playing, so I’ve done lots of scales. I’m not saying scales are useless for trad playing, but they are much less useful for trad than for classical playing.

And yes, scales can be very helpful in the beginning to learn where to put the fingers in various keys; it does have its place in learning fiddling. But I wouldn’t say that it’s mandatory once you get out of the beginning stages.

Having been into jazz guitar for a few years, I learned scales and chord progressions and inversions as much as I possibly could. Now that i’m trying to penetrate playing ITM, I wish i’d never had that experience. Instead of sticking to the tune (which is often not very much more complicated that a basic scale) my fingers are always running away with themselves looking for a fancy harmony way up the fingerboard. I’m having to ‘unlearn’ the muscle memory.

If somebody really ENJOYS playing scales, or finds that they impart an advantage, then play ’em. Nobody can stop you. But I seem to be seeing it the same way as Will CPT and Llig, I just can’t see the point or the benefit, and I cannot imagine the old masters practising scales when they could be playing tunes.

Yeah id agree absolutely. But at what stage does one cease to be a beginner? I class myself as an advanced beginner after 15 yrs of daily practice. I allways warm up with scales, and i am studying advanced scales in double stops.
Who am, I to dissagree with international masters? i dont care to hold an opinion, If that is what is recomended by people who can play stuff I will never even approach . who am I , a rough country fiddler to agree or dissagree? No, I say; yes sir, osu

I’m with Screetch: “scales can be very helpful in the beginning to learn where to put the fingers in various keys… But I wouldn’t say that it’s mandatory once you get out of the beginning stages.”

Step 1: How to hold the fiddle and bow. Step 2: How to move the bow across the string. Step 3: Where to put your fingers down to make notes that are in tune.

It’s just the logical extension of “how to hold the fiddle.” Once you know that, you are better off practicing your technique by playing tunes. I don’t have students, but I have shown complete beginners where to put their fingers down… by playing a scale. So shoot me, I guess.

hi macnasparade,

I’ve been fiddling for a number of years. Self-taught. I make up exercises related to fiddle tunes, because if I don’t focus on a difficult measure or two, I end up making the same mistakes over and over. I have gained a lot by this process and try to share it with my fiddle students.

Last year I put together a booklet of exercises specifically for traditional fiddling. It contains tune-like passages that I think help flexibility and strengthen the weak 3rd and 4th fingers, and can yield a sort of shortcut to achieve better intonation and clarity.

If you are interested, the book’s title is “The Fiddler’s Friend” and is offered on Amazon.com, and on my website at-

https://www.fiddlecasebooks.com/store/c2/Books.html

good luck, and if you have other questions, please don’t hesitate to ask!

Ok, wolfbird. You practised your scales for years, so you know what you are talking about and i respect that. But I would have to ask you then, Can you say you would have been a better player if you hadnt practised those scales?
I would say that, coming from a jazz background you would have to learn different ideas and techniques/attitudes, but this is a similar problem to that experienced by classical musicians coming to trad. To my mind this is a different issue to the practice of basic major scales in first position that i recomend to all my students on whistle, guitar, banjo, fiddle bass etc.. Advanced students get ‘advanced’scales, not jazz scales i am sorry to say because i can hardly play jazz ! or blues scales cos i cant play blues, well you know, others reckon i can but im only bluffing😎

Scales are fun, satisfying and rewarding precisely because they are easy, and conversely because they can be very hard, a challenge.

I can say that i can play blues and jazz a heck of a lot better than I can play ITM. Blues is really simple, in a sense, but jazz is open ended, can be as difficult and sophisticated as you want to make it. To a listener, an astonishing improvised run that plays games with the melody can sound like sheer genius, but it’s probably more to do with knowing the basic scales and chord sequences so thoroughly that they are all automatically available, and you just shuffle them about, emphasize juicy bit, play around with the rhythm.

In so far as I understand it, ITM begins from very different premise.
I also played lots of old time, bluegrassy stuff, rockabilly, and again, the fundamental premise of the genre is different.

I really can’t see any advantage in learning scales (for ITM) over learning tunes. I mean, if you learn a scale, it’s ok, but it’s dull. If you learn a tune, which can be just as easy or hard as any scale, and exercise your fingers just as well, then you HAVE something, instant feedback, an achievement, something to show off to people.

But this argument has been running on this site ever since I began lurking and probably long before, so it’ll not be settled by anything I say. I think the idea that scales are a requirement is something that’s ‘leaked’ from conventional mainstream orthodox music tuition. I’m all for the ‘primitive’ aspects of ITM. That’s where i get my buzz. If I remember you (jig) called the Rainey’s “rough gypsy music”. (I’m not saying that you spoke with a derogatory inference). But that’s what I love, the ‘roughness’ and what I don’t like is the smooth, slick, perfection, that some people produce. For me, it’s not about perfect technique, or perfect intonation, or anything like that, it’s about a ‘feel’, that it’s coming from the heart, coming from the soul…

Jig, I played scales for years on piano and guitar because I played rock and blues on those instruments--music where melodic improvisation over a chord progression is central to playing. I understand the usefulness of scales in those settings. Although you can still learn a lot just by listening to other musicians play their solos and extrapolate from that. (I’m not particularly fond of the style of improv that’s basically just scale and arpeggio-derived riffs stuck together. I prefer something more organic to the tune.)

So, having played scales and arpeggios, and improvised my way around the holy Circle of Fifths, I can say with some authority (based on your standards) that I don’t need any of that to be the best Irish fiddler I can be. In fact, time spent on scales and arpeggios, for me, is time I could be playing tunes.

Reenactor, yes I do teach beginners, and have for more than 30 years now, on a variety of instruments. For fiddle, I don’t teach scales to learn finger positions. After going through all the basics of how to relax while standing under the fiddle and not dropping the bow, etc., I then start them with a simple tune (usually in D major or E dorian). I point out that for the purposes of this tune, the index finger is always in the same spot, no matter which string it’s on. And the ring finger is also always in the same spot (we avoid tunes that need the C# on the G string for “first tunes”). Then I show them that there are two places the middle finger can land between the index and ring--either close to the index, or close to the ring. That’s all they need to know for their first few tunes. Later, we get into using the pinky (noticing that it’s the same pitch as the open string above).

By the time a student has internalized all this, teaching tunes in flat or multiple sharp keys is just a matter of explaining one or two new spots for fingers to land. And I explain that in the context of the tunes they already know. No need to practice scales--it’s all about hearing the intervals between notes in the context of the music these people are playing. This approach allows students to learn proper intonation (in the context of the key/mode they are playing in) and gives them a tune- and genre-oriented approach to inventing variations and “improvisations” (such as they are in Irish trad music). It teaches these things within the melodic and rhythmic conventions and style of the music, which plain scale and arpeggio exercises do not.

To echo jig above, “Irish traditional tunes are fun, satisfying, and rewarding precisely because they are simple and easy, and because they can also be complex, infinitely nuanced, and challenging.”

For this music, scales are unnecessary. If you enjoy playing them, fine. I enjoy playing tunes.

It makes sense to me that some amount of fiddle drills *ought* to be helpful for some (not all) people, probably more so in the early months and years.

I think we would all agree that repeatedly playing something “wrong” reinforces the “wrongness.” It amounts to practicing and perfecting a mistake. A common bit of wisdom among athletic trainers and music teachers is that proper warmup helps to prevent “wrong” running, “wrong” jumping and “wrong” tune playing. When the muscles are flexed and stretched through their full playing range, the fingers are less likely to play “wrongly” and practice mistakes.

Scales and other exercises are designed as compact, intense exposure to the rudimentary moves needed in playing real music. More of the rudiments are exercised more intensely in five minutes of drills than in five minutes of tune playing.

On the other hand, some of the characteristic patina of Irish fiddling comes from not having worked out every last little technical detail until it’s smooth and shiny. So, it this has to be a binary argument, then I come down firmly on both sides. And in the middle. Fiddle drills are probably useful for some, harmful for some (much like over-reliance on reading music) and irrrelevant to others.

I used to practice cuts, taps and rolls up and down the scale. I suppose that was a waste of my time too.

Doesn’t it make some sense to PRACTICE arpeggios and scales and PLAY tunes?

Will,

I respectfully submit that the process you’re describing teaches muscle memory, then (presumably later) intonation by ear.

Now, scales and arpeggios. They don’t take long to teach, and in my (admittedly only 20 years’ worth of) experience teaching I’ve found some students respond well to them, so it’s in the toolbox.

It’s my guess that this is an old argument on your part, because it seem to me you’re concluding the most extreme possible positions from my posts. I don’t think a lukewarm fondness for scales on my part indicates a complete disregard for the ear in intonation, a lack of understanding of Pythagorean, just, mean, or even-tempered tuning, or in fact a complete reliance on scale and arpeggio studies. I realize that in pointing this out I’m potentially guilty of the same error, but is it possible you’re thinking of someone else?

T.J.

I agree, too much perfection can seem a bit soul less, but though i practice scales etc and i aim for a lovely professional; tone i doubt i will actually achieve it! . sigh,
I certainly didnt say scales are a requirement, they are simply advisable for a player to concentrate on tone and intonation without also having to try and play a tune.
)

Will,
an aside, you are in the situation where your student is in front of you. You can correct them. |For someone like the poster here they are obviously on their own, they need a simple method of achieving good intonation and tone without the benefit of a teacher. I suggested, they get a teacher, however scales with reference to a tin whistle will do the job.

Going back to my other point, you spent years practicing scales, not on the fiddle perhaps but nonetheless you spent that time, Would you say that you would have been a better guitarist if you hadnt spent those hours training scales?

oh yeah, and since I’m arguing on the Internet anyway:

the idea was raised a few times that technical mastery over one’s instrument may make one sound too polished. Isn’t it better to have technical control of your instrument, and then to make the proper choices to sound right for the genre?

“the idea was raised a few times that technical mastery over one’s instrument may make one sound too polished. Isn’t it better to have technical control of your instrument, and then to make the proper choices to sound right for the genre?”

Yes, if you’re able to actually implement those choices naturally. But there’s some grey area. Also some gray area.

not a problem, just stop practising for a few days/ weeks and it all roughens up nicely!😉

“scales with reference to a tin whistle” You must be tone bloody deaf if you think a beginner can use a tin whistle to tune to

I honestly can’t think of anything I’ve read that’s less meaningful than “practising scales is good for your intonation.” If you can’t hear dodgy intonation whilst playing tunes you’re not much of a musician yet really. Proper musicians are listening all the time and not just playing notes. And I’ve yet to hear a tin whistle that would be anything remotely useful for reference to for scales or intonation. Scale practice for grade exams has put millions of young musicians off from continuing with their instruments. What a lamentable waste of potential brilliance. If you play music for fun, practising scales is in severe danger of coming between you and the fun big time. It’s a musty old Victorian anachronism. It’s like trying to teach a novice driver to drive a car on a disused airfield rather than on roads, then expecting the novice to be a good driver on real roads.

I generally tune to a tin whistle rather than a tuning fork After all if you cant tune to it how are you going to play with it, or do you think the instrument of Willie Clancy, Micho Russel, Michael Dwyer, and all is some how second rate? or not traditional enough? [ sarcasm]

So you play all the time with guys like that, do you, and not with guys who use Generations or Sweetones who forget to keep the mouthpiece a mathematically-accurate distance from their teeth and blow with exactly the same pounds per square inch at all times in ideal temperatures? Do yourself a favour. Buy yourself a cheapie Seiko tuner.

Hey Dan Foster,

Thanks very much for explaining the arpeggio.

Up to this point I’ve pretty much just been trying to learn tunes by ear. But I’m starting a session-style music class soon, and the teacher’s advice was to practice scales and arpeggios, so the information you’ve provided is most helpful.

Thanks again!!

‘’Do yourself a favour. Buy yourself a cheapie Seiko tuner.‘’

LOL, Ive gone 30 yrs without one, im not starting now! mathmatically what? I thought this was trad! not physics…..

So Im in tune with the tuner but not with the whistler! great session that sounds like [sarcasm]
And to your question; not all the time. 😎

Honestly, this is important, pay attention, if you think a tin whistle is a fixed pitch instrument that you can tune fiddle too I’m flabbergasted

macnasparade, your teacher isn’t “jig” is it? Maybe you’d better get a decent teacher?

What do you tune your fiddle too Llig? electronic tuner?

I don’t need to type “sarcasm” at the foot of my posts to indicate where it was intended. My suggestion that you buy a tuner was a suggestion that it was at least one way of getting yourself out of the sheer hell of attempting to tune to a whistle.

Steve, remind me what instrument you play? wasnt it the harmonica and box? much call in tuneing your instrument then? [sarcasm]
; I have absolutely no problem tuning to a whistle, it takes about 20 seconds on the guitar and a minuit for the fiddle. but then ive been doing it for 25 years so i should be pretty good at it by now….

tuning to a whistle (or anything else for that matter) and checking intonation against a whistle (or anything else for that matter) are 2 entirely different things

most string players for instance will say that there is no way to tune a piano (that is why Bach titled his set “The Well Tempered Clavier”) and it drives them nuts…

“WE” tune our instruments to each other.

I tune my harmonicas extremely carefully as it happens. No harmonica of mine ever makes it to a session until I’ve spent hours tuning and gapping it. Harmonicas come in a whole range of fine-tunings, and ITM players frequently go to pains to get them right for the context in which they are going to be played. I deal with this on my website. I really can’t think why I’m bothering to tell you this. There seems little point. You’ve been doing it all for so long, as you never tire of telling us, that your ideas are set rock-solid in concrete.

Sunny, this is traditional Irish music. the tin whistle is a traditional Irish instrument the notes we want are the same notes the whistle plays’ with steady tone, not a complicated or difficult feat. Perhaps
the problem with folk who play tempered instruments is that they assume that they are ‘in tune’ and the whistle isnt!

And, as Michael says, once at the pub we all tune to each other. Don’t ask me how. It’s one of those organic sort of things. But one cry I’ve yet to hear is “Hey, you with the whistle! Give us an A, could you?” 😀

So Llig, you play with a whistler?

Hey, you with the whistle! Give us an A, could you?" 😀

How many sessions do you play in? sounds like one pub in south Of England to me.

Perhaps you could explain to the masses what a “tempered instrument” is. Taking time to tell us that may take your mind off scales and whistles for a minute.

Michael, we have him surrounded. Fer Chrissakes don’t go to bed yet.

Can’t say I’d think of a whistle as being a reliable pitch and I have sometimes seen players moving the mouthpiece of these things (where possible) presumably to tune them.

Me, I use a tuner and try to use my ears. I suspect that in sessions we are often trying to get a best fit, perhaps with some fixed pitched instruments that perhaps don’t agree 100% with each other anyway…

Ah i really cant be bothered wasting my time playing stupid little games with you steve, good night.
In case you hadnt noticed this thread is about scales and arpeggio, you know those things you dont play. Quite why you want to hijack this thread to play your power trips is beyond me so go ahead.
Yes Llig , your right , of course, as usual, there now, does that make you feel better? slán.

Jon, befor i hit the sack i’ll respond , sure you tune a whistle, and as it warms up it sharpens. However warming up a whistle takes a moment. With the fipple fully in the whistle is as good a D as you will need, warmed up.
the whistle and the box are the most reliable instruments, and thats only a dry tuned box. What else do these people suggest? an electronic tuner? some arbitrary 440 classical standard? Geez, what ever next?!

Classical musicians spend a lot of time practicing scales, arpeggios,and etudes as well as actual pieces because classical pieces are full of passages that are basically scales, arpeggios, and etudes. When you get to a 32nd-note run in a new piece you have the advantage of having kind of already played it before.

But you don’t play trad the way that you normally play scales and arpeggios. The bowing and ornamentation are the hard parts and you don’t get them from playing scales.

Of course, if you play arpeggios accross strings with a shuffle pattern and rolls that might be more appropriate practice…but at that point you’re pretty much playing a tune.

My CD has a version of Lord Inchiquin on it. The tune is full of scale runs. I play loads of tunes with arpeggios in the melodies. Try Soldiers‘ Joy or Miss Thornton’s. So I play scales and arpeggios. But, you know? I never spent a single minute practising scales or arpeggios. I play scales and arpeggios in the tunes I play. That’s my practice, thank you very much. I have fun with my scale and arpeggio practice because (a) when I’m practising them I don’t know I’m practising them and (b) when I’m practising them I’m playing tunes, which is my whole raison d’être in ITM. Playing tunes. I’m a lazy sod really and I don’t play tunes nearly enough. If I fretted about my scales and arpeggios I probably wouldn’t play tunes at all. Shut up there, Michael!

TJ, I wasn’t inferring anything extreme about your position or mine (jig has both extremes well covered all by himself). I was just explaining my own approach to teaching fiddle. I hope my previous post didn’t come across as aggro--that’s not at all what I intended, and I’m sorry if it hit your that way.

Yes, beginning musicians do use muscle memory to learn to play their instruments, and yes, it is a part of learning how to properly finger a fiddle. But the ear leads the fingers, not the other way around. Teaching good intonation by leading with the fingers is exactly what’s wrong with the nasty tape-on-the-fingerboard approach.

My sense of it is that muscle memory is a byproduct of listening to your intonation--it comes *after* you use your ears.



Jig, it’s hard to have a reasonable conversation with you. I think my previous posts explain why scales and arpeggios are part and parcel of being a good ***rock or blues guitarist.*** And also why that’s not relevant to being a good or even great ***Irish fiddler.*** If you want to misrepresent posts and twist words, please stick to your own contributions.

BTW, you have a habit of saying, “…which I’ve been playing/teaching for xyz years, so I think I know what I’m doing.” Whether you intend it or not, that comes of as saying anyone who disagrees with you is flat out wrong. Which gets old, eh? Lighten up on yourself.

Besides, I’ve been playing music of one form or another since I was 7, so going on 42 years now. I’m mortally happy that I haven’t been doing it exactly the same way all those years. In fact, my attitudes, methods, techniques, and concepts of music have changed a lot over all that time, and still are. So it’s 42 years of evolving experience, not 42 years of pedantic, static, dogma. I hope and pray that the same is true for you, though that’s not at all clear from the way you type….

Hang on will, It seems to me that its you who is denying the efficiency of a technique from outside your style, I am someone who ? keeps an open mind. It is you telling us that scales are of no aid!

my attitude;
>>Who am, I to dissagree with international masters? i dont care to hold an opinion, If that is what is recomended by people who can play stuff I will never even approach . who am I , a rough country fiddler to agree or dissagree? No, I say; yes sir, <<



This was the question you chose to ignore;

‘’Going back to my other point, you spent years practicing scales, not on the fiddle perhaps but nonetheless you spent that time, Would you say that you would have been a better guitarist if you hadnt spent those hours training scales?‘’

yes fiddlers can get away with poor intonation. Does that make them better fiddlers?

Can someone tell me how intonation can be improved on more by playing scales than by playing real tunes? I thought getting good intonation was all about listening to yourself and to others.

That’s easy Steve, you bow a Csharp on your fiddle while blowing a D whistle that’s stuck in your gob (don’t have to cover the holes you see). Adjust your fingers (but not your breath) accordingly. Then get another whistle and tape up the second and third hole for your Cnat. With both whistles in your gob and a bit of clever tonguing (you’d be good at this) you can alternate between the Cnat and Csharp. Easy

Stoppit, you’re killing me!

Will - no worries. And there’s probably a rich tradeoff between muscle memory and ears throughout a fiddler’s career.

TJ, yep, my guess is that out ears and fingers are physically connected. Otherwise what’s the point of all that skin and gore between them? 🙂 😀


Jig, if you can’t be bothered to read my posts, then please don’t pretend to tell me what I did or did not address. In my previous post, I said:

“I think my previous posts explain why scales and arpeggios are part and parcel of being a good ***rock or blues guitarist.*** And also why that’s not relevant to being a good or even great ***Irish fiddler.***”

Since you seem unable to get the point, I’ll summarize my previous posts on this.

Rock and blues guitar solo playing is built on a strong knowledge of and facility with scales and arppegios. Irish fiddling is not--it’s built on a strong knowledge of and facility with ****tunes.****

I’d hazard a guess that if, at your next session, you launched into a blues scale based improvisation in the middle of Dispute at the Crossroads, your session mates would find the largest hammer available on short notice and make quick work of your fiddle.

Jaysus, I hate stooping to Jig’s level of discourse, but maybe this will make a dent. I’ve studied fiddle with some of the big names, and I studied violin with Walter Oliveras (who has a critically acclaimed Carnegie Hall recital in his resume, so no slouch of a fiddler there). I’ve been at Irish fiddling for nearly 30 years. I’m NOT Yehudi Menuhin or Stephane Grapelli, nor do I aspire to be them. But I play a damn fine bit of Irish fiddle, there’s nothing wrong with my tone or intonation. I happen to know that many of the other members here are of the same high caliber of musicianship.

So you sound like a total idiot when you presume to call them scratchy or out of tune, hack players. You’d be doing yourself a favor if you stopped doing that.

Well then will, you dont need to improve but why try to influence others to not play scales when you did so for many years?
All the Irish tunes are built upon scales, and intervals. Im just after teaching a student not 10 min ago. he had picked up numerous bad habits from tune playing. We had to go back to scales and arpeggios so he could concentrate upon finger position, residual tension, relaxation, good technique, distance the fingers leave the notes. All these things cant be addressed while also learning a tune. In fact he said a couple of times‘’ this isnt a tune is it?‘’ specifically requesting we do simple exercises where he could concentrate on the fundamentals.

you seem to be avoiding the question i askl..‘ perhaps you might like to answe?, Would you say that you would have been a better guitarist if you hadnt spent those hours training scales?’’a simple yes or no will suffice.
Im not sure we need all the bluster but if it makes you feel better go ahead. At no point did i call‘’ them scratchy or out of tune, hack players.‘’
Those are your words. you would do well to confine your self to a true quotation rather than one distorted by your likes ,dislikes, and wounded pride.

And what is this? >>I’d hazard a guess that if, at your next session, you launched into a blues scale based improvisation in the middle of Dispute at the Crossroads, your session mates would find the largest hammer available on short notice and make quick work of your fiddle.<< come on man, pull your self together, you are the blues guitarist remember, not me.

All I am saying, and continue to do so is that , I much rather take the advice of international level instructors. and that is the advice I give to any student. If you cant handle that because you disagree well that’s your problem.

I take you upon your word, a damn fine fiddler. fair enough, would you be worse if you had practised scales? how do you know you wouldn’t be better if you had. you dont.

Steve a serious question, so a serious answer. Scales are not simply about intonation.

You know what, jig, you’ve made that argument repeatedly now---“how do you know it doesn’t work if you haven’t tried it”---regarding your insistence on perfecting scales before learning tunes. It might be a tempting argument to make, but it follows poor logic---I could just as easily say that it’s better to practice in two-hour chunks every two weeks rather than in smaller bits every day, and how do you know that doesn’t work if you haven’t tried it?

You’re ignoring common sense. Not one single person on this board likes the idea of being limited to a starvation diet of scales and arpeggios---every single person who has responded to you has said that they dislike the idea and prefer to focus on music from the beginning. What good is your method if it makes people want to quit learning to play?

You’ve also made liberal use of famous musicians’ names in supporting your love for scales, but you haven’t proved that a single one of them follows your scales only method either. I know that Martin Hayes says he plays scales, but I can hardly imagine that his father prohibited him from learning tunes until he could play a perfect G major two-octave scale. It makes it hard to give credence to your points when you use examples like this.

Finally, it would be nice if you would allow for the fact that a variety of approaches is fundamentally a good thing. Just as we need diferent sizes of shoulder rests because everyone is built differently, we also need a variety of teaching methods because everyone learns differently and has different strengths and weaknesses. I have a friend who also takes lessons from my teacher and when she describes her lessons to me, they sound quite different from the ones I’ve had---this is because she is moving at a different pace than I am and she’s much more concerned about reading music than I am, so our teacher focuses more on those things with her than with me. I wouldn’t be happy if he worked that way with me.

You and Will/Michael represent two extremes of an argument---you rely rigidly on scales, and Will and Michael reject them altogether. It doesn’t mean one extreme is right and the other is wrong. It would be nice if you didn’t insist on that being so.

One good practice method is to play scales the way you play tunes.
Begin in one key & go to another, then another, & another eventually working back to where you began. This may also be used in putting together sets.With scales &/or arpeggios you can use something like the circle of fifths to resolve back to where you began. Other circles are possible. Here is an excellent discussion on circular methodology;
https://thesession.org/discussions/16301

Yes, good first post…

Kennedy, I don’t reject scales altogether, I just don’t think they’re necessary for learning to play Irish fiddle. The tunes--and pieces of tunes--are all you need to learn this music to the highest ability. If someone wants to practice scales, that’s fine by me. I’m merely suggesting the time would likely be better spent on actual tunes and bits of tunes.

Over the years, I have had a few students who really struggled with the fiddle--for them, it was a truly difficult instrument. Years and years ago, I would resort to the usual drills and exercises. And every single student in that predicament began losing the desire to play, to even try. But as soon as I gave them a simple tune instead, one that focused them on the same technique or issue as the drill, their enthusiasm came back. And they played more. And so they progressed--they overcame their difficulties. And they had fun doing it.

Though it’s not always the case, I’ve met literally hundreds of “trained” violinists who quit playing music as soon as their parents let them, or as soon as they escaped school orchestra programs. As adults, they often voice regret that they didn’t keep palying--and the most common sentiment is, “It just wasn’t fun.” When they see a bunch of 50 year olds having a blast playing good music in our session, they often tell us how much they wished music had been as much fun for them. Seriosuly--this happens on a regular basis. And my wife is one of these “used-to-play” violinists.

So jig’s ***insistence*** on scales strikes me as narrow minded, and apt to sned a few people down a discouraging road. All I’m saying is there are other (perhaps more enjoyable) ways to obtain all the technical skill and mastery you need to play Irish fiddle.



Jig, are you deliberately incapable of understanding my answers? Yes, playing scales on guitar made me a better rock and blues guitarist. But playing scales on fiddle won’t make me a better Irish fiddler. If I wanted to play jazz, rock, or blues fiddle, then I would probably fly through some scale-based patterns (not basic scales themselves) now and then. Not to imrpove my intonation, but to keep those improvisational chunks fresh and ready. That’s how improvised music works in those genres.

And that has absolutely nothing at all to do with playing traditional Irish fiddle.

So your student picked up bad habits from tune-playing. I do that too! I have fun. That’s a very bad habit, best avoided by sticking to scales. I pick up my pint between tunes too! I find tunes to be just the right length to build up enough thirst for yet another glug. Anathema! I’m just wondering what other bad habits tune-playing could bring about. The inability to play scales, perhaps?

Most likely it would improve one’s ability to play
arpeggios & scales in the keys & modes in which
the tunes are played.

Will, you do reject scales as a teaching method. Which kind of surprised me, actually, given your fluency with written music and music theory in general (I’ve learned more about music theory from you than anyone else!). I could never say I disagree, baby beginner that I am, but I think if I had been your student I might have felt like I was missing something. I like the fact that I can play scales, I’m kind of proud of it. You can also say the same thing about written music---it’s not necessary---but it does have value, especially if you ever want to play any other style of music, which I might someday.

I believe it may be as simple as the
Irish traditional session bias.
Scale practice (& written music) is acceptable
in its’ place. It does not have a place in practicing orlearning or playing Irish session tunes. That is my synopsis of the majority opinion of the board.
Personally I am skeptical of such an inflexible opinion.
Of course I am skeptical of jigs’ inflexibility as well.

in practicing, learning, or playing of Irish session tunes . . .

the “dominant vocal” majority (?) majority . . .

I did a (futile) search of tunes
based on scales 1st & the arpeggios.
This is all that I could find;
https://thesession.org/index.php/search?q=egb+bge&start=0&scope=The+Session

will, I play tunes on guitar, not jazz or blues, trad tunes, I play them on the fiuddle, banjo and whistle. I recomend people starting learn to pronounce their musical words befor going on to speak. I am not criticising your methods, if it works then all is good, you have strongly held beliefs regarding scales. fair enough. but dont confuse what we do with a strict classical dry training method. I actually think you are exaggerating my position so as to give yourself room to knock it. I think thats unfair. and an untrue representation of my suggestions. scales are a useful tool. I am not going to abandon them because they work as demonstrated. I am not rigidly proposing them,s they still help me 30yrs on and 10 tr old students. If a student comes allong and can demonstrate competance then all the better. The most satisfying aspect of learning to play is success. that is the aim. I am prepared tyo use any method to help me and my students progress. Are you?

Kennedy, i think you also are exaggerating , scales, the notes within them that we use are an essential part of trad. every tune uses notes. I simply follow the advice i am given by those i know can do it for real.I am glad you have taken it to heart, whether it comes from me or your teacher or fred blogs is irrelevant. no doubt you can see the benefits allready.
good luck and enjoy your music. enjoy your life, even the so called boreing bits.😎

The thing is, Kennedy, if someone *wants* to play scales, they can, and they’ll find it a pretty easy go if they’ve been playing tunes as long as you have.

And I do cover the concepts of intervals between pitches, which leads to talking about scales at some point. But for Irish trad fiddle, I don’t ask my students to actually *practice* playing scales. Anything they can learn from playing scales, they can learn from playing tunes.

Maybe it helps to be reminded of the context we find ourselves playing this music in (as Steve has started to do above). The tradition of playing Irish tunes is built on playing for dancers who have specific steps and patterns for the tunes. The music has also evolved into a party unto itself, in the form of sessions. In either case, the music is played solo, or with others and essentially in unison. Long flights of improvised counterpoint or harmonizing (no pun intended) aren’t part of the tradition. Pints and craic and being sociable are part of the tradition. So are playing in tune, with a strong tone, and knowing the tunes inside and out. Knowing lots of tunes is smiled upon as well.

To a beginner, playing the music may seem difficult and tricky, something to be analyzed and taken apart to learn by bits and pieces. But in the grand scheme of things, this really is simple music (compared to a Paganini caprice, say, or a Thelonius Monk opus). You can play Irish fiddle all your life at the highest caliber and never once give thought to honing your intonation in 9th position on that fiddle of yours.

So for 99.99999% of the people who come to me to learn to play Irish fiddle, the scales and arpeggios and Kreuzer drills just aren’t important or necessary. I’d rather teach them (and they agree--they’d rather learn) the tunes themselves, how to contribute to a session, which are the best draft beers at the local pub, and how to politely get the name of the cutie over there playing whistle.

So Kennedy, keep playing scales if you enjoy them and if they give you something back. That’s great. no worries. But don’t be surprised if some day a year or three down the road you realize that you’d rather just play the tunes.

Will. I appreciate what you say and that you are saying it with the experience of a teacher. But I still see scales more from Kennedy’s angle. Quite a lot of us are learning instruments after a few decades of life and learning. We are not kids pushed into it by parents. We are old enough to have a suggestion put to us, try it out for a bit and decide whether it seems to be helping in any way. I think I am too sceptical to suffer from Michaels ‘placebo effect’, but none of us can carry out ‘double blind’ trials of the things we do to help us learn. Nor, I think, can we discount, or maybe sometimes recognise, the influence of our previous experience.

I am sure that scales - and I just mean D and G major scales and running around the same patterns in both before doing the same with simpe tunes - have helped me map out in my mind the small set of notes that this music uses. Something to do with intervals. Learning tunes became easier after I started doing it. And when I get G# key on my flute one of the first things I do will be to do the same things in A. But so far as improving how I execute sequences of notes is concerned I don’t find it much different to fragments of tunes.

The suggestion for scales came from an experienced teacher’s online tutor. It helps me, but its voluntary.

[I wrote this before kennedy’s last post but I type too slowly to start again]

kreutzer drills? no, simple major scales

>>What utterly astounds me is that you persist in attempting to promulgate your idiosyncratic and irrefutably wrong approach to traditional music on these pages. Clearly, you’re descended from armadillos.<<


so refute this then mac…

‘’A good performer, playing solo-the best way of rendering this music- will play a tune over three, four or more times, introducing as he proceeds fresh forms of ornamentation,melodic and rhythmic variations. It will be noticed that the first bout in such a performance is the least embellished. One is accordingly provided a measure or line, the deviation from which by way of embellishment add point and flavour to the music. The implicit contrast is lost when a tune is started in a highly ornate manner and the enjoyment of the listener thereby diminished.‘’

# Posted on January 6th 2008 by jig .

Think on this a spell:

I have heard people who can play scales and play them well, but who can’t make music.

But I have never run into anyone who can play music well who can’t, on a whim, play scales, whether or not they ever “practiced” them.

Another way to think of it: If you can pick up tunes on the fly, it’s so much ridiculously easier to play a scale--in any key and mode--on the fly. So if some day I decide I want to play jazz fiddle, I’ll spend a day or two running around the fingerboard sussing our every possible scale and permutation of scales. As an experienced fiddler, that will be easy. And far more efficient than having spent weeks, months, or years doing the same as a beginning fiddler….

So should any time be spent practicing
articulations (ornamentation)?

‘’But don’t be surprised if some day a year or three down the road you realize that you’d rather just play the tunes.‘’

well after 15 yrs of fiddle an 30+ of guitar i still practice scales, so dont be surprised if after 30yrs you still enjoy scales and simple isolation exercises. 😎

Oops. And I crossed with Will

Question to Will - how much of what is being said is specific to fiddle ? Things don’ t seem to get so heated between the flute players here. (FWIW I’ll give simple song melodies slowly and long tones about equal points)

David and I seem to agree, although for fiddle, it’s more of a physical thing---a scale or two stretches out my hand and gets my fingers in their right places. Like stretching out my hamstrings before going for a run. And then the notes in the tunes come more easily and accurately. I know I can use tunes for this purpose, but if my fingers are rusty, I’d rather mangle a scale while I’m warming up than a tune.

And several people have said they don’t want to waste time doing technical exercises that they could be using to play tunes. I guess that would be a factor if your practice time is limited. I practice two hours a day on average---ten minutes’ worth of scales out of that isn’t really a big deal. And Will, I don’t *enjoy* them! I just want to play better and they’ve been helping!

And Jig, you didn’t respond to a single thing I said.

Will I do know a very good fiddle player
who has played in every genre.
She had never practiced scales or arpeggios.
I had to walk her through Em & D arpeggios when
I was showing her a basic E dorian tune.
She was struggling.
The next day I heard her running through
some arpeggios.

David h - As I’ve said above, if you enjoy playing scales and it gives something back to you, then do it. Lots of people don’t like scale exercises, so I give them a wide open door to the music without having to play scales.

Also, I find that flute and whistle are so obviously designed around a specific scale or three that it’s almost hard to avoid playing scales. Take a keyless D flute--start with all the fingers down and lift one at a time in sequence from the bottom and you’ve played almost the whole D major scale. It;s built right into the instrument. So, sure, on flute, it makes sense to learn your D, Edor, Em, G, Ador, and Bm scales. Just start on a hole and work your way up and down. Then do it again on the next hole up. And so on. You’ll have the flute sussed out in half a day. Then you can play tunes. 🙂

Fiddle however is designed around intervals of a fifth. So it’s more natural to play fifths and patterns of other intervals, going across the strings. That’s why soooooo many fiddle tunes (tunes composed on fiddle) have phrases like |DFAF BFAF| and |G2 BG dGBG|.

[And please bear in mind that it’s jig who’s painting me as some extremist here--I haven’t said “don’t play scales.” I just said they’re unecessary for Irish music, and Irish fiddle in particular.]

https://thesession.org/index.php/search?q=DFAF+BFAF&start=0&scope=The+Session

G2 BG dGBG
https://thesession.org/index.php/search?q=G2+BG+dGBG&start=0&scope=The+Session

All posting together. David, I hope I answered at least part of your question.

Muse, I suspect your “very good” fiddler wasn’t familiar with Irish music and that’s why she was struggling. It’s possible--even likely--to play lots of other genres of music and rarely or never run across a dorian tune. But dorian happens to be a defining feature of Irish trad music. Especially dorian tunes with a wandering 7th tone.

Kennedy, what a lot of Irish fiddlers do to warm up (besides a pint of the black stuff) is to start with a favorite, easy tune. Martin Hayess has said he likes to warm up on The Morning Star. And he’ll run through it in several different keys just to get his fingers and mind joined at the hip, so to speak. 🙂

This is my preferred method too--the Morning Star is a great warm up tune. So is the West Clare Reel, Bag of Spuds, Miller of Droghan, Hole in the Hedge, or Buried My Wife and Danced on Her Grave. I’ll often start with one of these and let it take me on a stroll through two or three keys. When you use the same tune for months or even years like this (rotating among a choice few), it becomes easier to play in different keys on a whim. And it instantly puts me in a tune-playing frame of mind, which feels good (cuz playing tunes is what I enjoy), and also comes in handy when you’re late to a session or gig and everyone else is already warmed up and cranking along. My warm up routine at home has taught me to jump right into playing the music, not needing to run through some artificial (sorry if that sounds harsh) or stripped down exercise first.

Mind you, I’m not arguing that you should change your ways. Just explaining what works for me and suggesting it as a possible alternative, for future consideration.

LOL Muse, excellent roster of examples.

Here’s a great jig that uses arpeggios and a straight D scale run (at the end of the B part): https://thesession.org/tunes/644

I learned this one at the knee of Brian Conway. He called it Joe Burke’s.

Kennedy. Now I have started to get my head around how the notes work together the physical part is getting more important. Someone said above (or on the discussion that I suspect sparked this one) that scales and patterns are a quick way of working through the range of notes needed and some important intervals.

Some days my lips take some time to remember what they are supposed to do for some notes and it is somehow less annoying to foul up a scale rather than a tune.

when practicing scales, should one use the dots, or learn by ear?

just curious

actually, it occurs to me thusly…

if one has the foresight to know that their end goal may only to play trad, then start by and learn by trad tunes

if ones end goal is to learn the violin (or other instrument) and really know that instrument (really speaking of the violin here) then it could be advantageous to play scales and arpeggios in different positions and keys and rhythyms, too!

it can’t hurt (imho)

but , speaking for myself, it comes down to a matter of time management and economics…would I rather be spending my time playing tunes or playing scales

tunes are a lot ore fun

scales (and kreutzer rip) may help me to know my instrument

and by doing this, if I am only playing trad tunes, my time is better spent playing tunes

Thanks Will.

Maybe off topic, but I think the mental map that is forming in my head of the notes we use has a basis more as Llig described in another thread - a sequence from D to the b in the octave above (in my case also going down to the C# or C below for English and Scottish tunes). With the tunes in different modes often working over all of it but coming home in different places. That fits with the way I had been thinking about the tunes before I read any music theory. (Octave, whats an octave ?).

Have just had a look at the mandolin gathering dust on the wall - far too many notes to choose from.

Response to Sunnybear - don’t know about dots for practising scales, but in another context I have been trying to use dots for singing (to say I was ‘reading’ them would be a gross exaggeration) and have started thinking of the dots whilst playing the scales - but it is to help me learn the dots, not the scales.

Sorry kennedy, i didnt realise you were asking me something‘’

->>-I could just as easily say that it’s better to practice in two-hour chunks every two weeks rather than in smaller bits every day, and how do you know that doesn’t work if you haven’t tried it?,<<


The answer is obviously that you dont.
As in any educational system we go by the advice we get from our instructors. I consistantly suggest that students try to find the best instruction they can find. referencing against the tried and true methods traditionally handed down which they can get from reputable books. so to recap, we take the advice from those who have been before us.


.I just said they’re unecessary for Irish music, and Irish fiddle in particular‘’

Maybe for you will, with decades of scale practice behind you. however for me you are quite wrong., so your statement is simply, factually inaccurate. How you can make such a catagoric statement and expect to be taken seriously is beyond me. There are no ifs and buts. you are mistaken. Now if you are speaking for your self, then fair enough. but to expect others to spend years struggling because they take your statement as a fact.is unfair. how many students would listen to that and go, ok great i dont need to play my scales.

Without a doubt I needed scales to train my fiddle. I allready had plenty of tunes.

Are you saying that the practice of scales can somehow hinder a student? I think not. I know for a fact that the playing of scales can help immensely.

So a tune has some parts of a scale in it, of course, they all do..that is besides the point, we play tunes as well as soon as a simple scale can be played.you ever see a fiddler who got worse from practising scales?

I am sure with determination, persistance good instruction some folk can achieve a high level of trad playing with little in the way of scales. and…? That does not argue against scales at all. scales are of immense help.

The young lad today enjoys scales, he enjoys tunes too, but too much tunes puts him off, because they are hard for him, what he really enjoys beyond anything is success and praise. success at a D major scale is of far greater value than a poor attempt at a tune. which he may well forget till next time. his scales? no, he cant forget them. he can practice them every day, slowly carefully, listening to tone pronunciation.

We slowly achieve a tune, by ear alone, committed to memory, with good tone. that is my aim and once again if you or anyone can demonstrate a disadvantage to scales i am prepared to listen.

As of yet the only possible contender is that too much scale work can put a student off. Fair enough, too much of anything can put someone off. too many tunes can put some one off. so? does that mean we dont teach tunes in case it puts someone off? I dont think so…
So any one with a clear and concise argument against scales as opposed to the promotion of tunes? which i do as much as any one. at the right time, which is dictated by the student, not their ego, but their capability as judged by me. the instructor. [Not the parent]

By ear of course sunny bear, by ear!

The muse: you seem to be going to lengths to show that there are few actual arpeggios and scales in ITM. (I may be mistaken about that).

The thing is, if scales and arpeggios (of the “let’s practice some basic scales and arpeggios” variety) do not form the meat of ITM tunes, what is the point of playing them?

"when practicing scales, should one use the dots, or learn by ear?

just curious"

Actually, that’s a good point. Open a scale book and look at the bowings and rhythms that are written there. They are written in classical style, and are meant to be played that way.

And that’s really the problem. Even if you aren’t playing scales from dots, you’re probably playing in that style.

That’s helpful if you have a scale run in a classical piece; you’ve already practiced it. So violinists practice scales even at the highest levels, because it’s useful.

Look at some of those tunes with “scales” in them. Sure look like scales when looking at the dots. But do you play the tune that way? The way that scales are normally played? I sure hope not.

Practicing scales is practicing classical style, which isn’t very useful for trad playing. Of course, you can practice the scales by playing them in the same way that you would play tunes (bowing, ornamentation, etc.), but that is not any more difficult than just playing some tunes so why bother, unless you just enjoy it.

Scales can be useful in the beginning for both trad and classical players. But while experienced violinists still get benefit from practicing scales, I don’t think that a trad musician gets much out of them once he/she knows where the fingers go.

To be clear (and then I have dinner to cook and a session to enjoy):

There’s no harm in playing scales, if that’s what you want to do.

But for a lot of people, there’s a tradeoff because time is limited (never enough hours in a day). So time spent playing scales takes away from time spent playing tunes. If the genre of music you want to play consists of simple tunes, almost all in first position, built on oft-repeated idiomatic chunks and phrases, then--for the majority of people--playing scales is not necessary.

That’s all.

Yes, the tunes are full of arpeggios and scales. That’s why the tunes themselves teaach us what we need to know.

Imagine learning to speak English by repeating over and over:

do

like

eggs

not

ham

I

green

and

do like eggs not ham I green and
do like eggs not ham I green and
do like eggs not ham I green and
(yawn. What the ’ell’s this mean? How am I supposed to inflect this “sentence?” Which words should I emphasize? Which words are the most important?)
do like eggs not ham I green and
do like eggs not ham I green and
do like eggs……….

Then three weeks later your teacher throws this at you:

eggs not ham I green and do like

and then suggests an arpeggio:

eggs ham green like green ham
eggs ham green like green ham
eggs ham green like green ham

I feel sorry for the poor child who grows up listening to (and regurgitating) Dr. Seuss this way….

Ha Will, I love that book. I play a game with my daughter where we have to do each page without taking a breath. Do you think that would be a good exercise for playing the flute?

And something I only spotted the other day, Sam is dressed like a Laplander. As in Sam I am, or, Sami am. Genius

LOL, I just tried saying “I don not like them on a train, I do not like them in a plane” with my lips tucked into their flute embouchure and it sounded like Tony Blair on acid…..

🙂

Tirno actually sometimes I practice tunes & sometimes I practice by using exercises.
I develop scale & arpeggio exercises on the fly.
They are not quite tunes & not quite scales . . .
& they are different every time.
It is something I use as meditation to shift from conscious thinking to the subconscious & just go where my ear takes me. It is great for relaxing m fingers because I do not have to ‘think’ about where they go. My ear does it for me.

Thing is arpeggios do not have to be just the pattern of 1 -3 -5 octave . . . In that sense trad has plenty of arpeggios ~ but probably less in terms of scales ~

My eyes were glazing over until those last two posts. Cheers, chaps, for going the step beyond insanity. I feel incapable of further rational thought. About anything.

With great respect, Muse, I meant Michael’s and Will’s!

when Dr. Shinichi Suzuki developed (wrote down on paper) his “method ” for learning the violin, he started with a simple tune, written by Mozart that goes now by the name “Twinkle Twinkle…”

he does not start a child off with scales. He starts them off with tune. He refers to this method as the “mother tongue” approach, and he advocates playing by ear.

Now there are plenty of critics to his approach, as you can only imagine, but the basic premise is sound…that you learn to talk by listenign to others speak, and why should you not learn to play the violin by listening and imitating others playing.

Later i the program “tonalization” is introduced…basically intervals and such to be LISTENED to, hence the name (sorry to yell, but eneded the emphasis)…but the basic premise of listening is the key…

there are many many talented young and old Suzuki method players..

can they read music as well…maybe not, but they sure can listen to themselves and others better!

“By ear of course sunny bear, by ear!”

oh, pooh

everyone knows that is not true..

how would you know what note you are playing???

Will?
Are you O.K.

http://www.seussville.com/games/lb_oh_the_places.html

We’re all OK. No worries!





Wibble.

Hello Steve;
Will freaked me out. I hope he does not start writing children’s stories.
Cheers!

Should I ring for an ambulance?

My two cents…

30 years of playing classical music:
Number of hours spent practising scales and arpeggios - hundreds
Were they necessary? Absolutely essential - they form a major part of classical music

5 years of playing ITM
Number of hours spent practising scales and arpeggios - none at all
Were they necessary? Absolutely not - they form such an insignificant part of ITM

Is practising them beneficial or a waste of time for this music?
If you took all the time spent practising scales and used it to learn tunes which contain all the notes of the scale you’d achieve the same result (knowing where all the notes are) but you’d also have learned several useful tunes.
Also, following on from Screetch’s comment earlier, unless you are playing the scales with appropriate lilt you are teaching yourself to play in a style which has no place in this musical form. If you play them in jig time or reel time or polka time you’re doing something more useful, but stil not as useful as learning a tune.
Can anyone truly say they enjoy playing scales? Each to his own, I guess, but to me it’s boring as bat droppings. You could even say they’re just crap tunes 😉

Would I recommend a beginner practise them? Not at all. I personally feel this is misdirecting their efforts which could be far better applied elsewhere.

Maybe, just maybe, they help in finger placement on the fiddle. On the other hand, maybe they are a crutch that’s helping people to avoid the hard work they need to put in to learn how to pick the intervals in a tune and play them automatically. Sometimes doing the hard thing turns out to be far more productive in the long run.


Please note - this is not meant as a personal attack on anybody, or as taking sides. It’s just my own experience.

Eno

Wow, the title of this tread sounded so benign. I wouldn’t have guessed it so controversial 🙂

Ahh, Bc a post thats relevant, You say you spent years playing scales. because they are relevant to classical music. Are you then saying that you forgot all that when you started playing trad? I am not a classical player. I play trad. Scales are very useful for me. No one can deny that. therefor the situation is likely similar for others.

Ps mozart didnt write twinkle, he adapted the old European folk melody as far as i can gather. there appear to be records pre-dateing him. of course i could be mistaken in this., i too had the- impression he conceived the melody, however….

….It appears that he just popularised it.

Sunnybear, this tune twinkle, I too have taught this at an early stage, though me thinks adults might not take to kindly to it😎
Really, a tune simple enough to be playing well is perfectly adequate as an introduction. I consistently recomend airs to beginners, surely one tune played well is better than 20 played badly? or is it simple acquisition they are after?
However there are not too many tunes as simple as that in the trad repertoire. A one octive scale is fine for one octave tunes.
Though some people seem set in their beliefs , the idea in scale practice is to make it easier to achieve our goals. You have a problem with that? the notes can be mastered with referance to a simple form.

Put it this way, If I am teaching boxing, do you think i would put my students in to the ring and say, right you want to fight, go for it!!? of course not. they train basic techniques of attack and defence first. they learn how to deal with violence within a safe structured environment.
Agreed this is not boxing however the same principles apply in teaching any thing; let the student master simple things before approaching complicated ones.

What can you get out of scales that you can’t get out of playing a tune ?

What can you get out of playing a tune that you can’t get out of scales ?

And would I rather play twinkle twinkle or a scale - twinkle gets it every time.

To clarify my comments on classical music, I played the piano for all those years, and only took up the box five years ago. I’d still have to think hard before playing scales on the box, and wouldn’t guarantee I’d get it right first time.

And naturally you give students something simple to start off. Don’t they always recommend you start with polkas?

!; The time and space to work on your basic techniques without having to also deal with learning a tune. This is invaluable for me, and my students.
Learning a tune is a separate issue to learning the mechanics of the instrument. Sure if you wish to approach these two issues at the same time go ahead, but personally i dont recomend it. Back to the boxing analogy, it would be like trying to learn how to punch while being battered in a ring!, not advisable😎

2; You will get a tune . whether you can play that tune with any competence is another matter. Why try to do something that is actually out of your reach? you simply wont be able to play a tune[trad] well when starting. You will devote valuable time and energy approaching two issues at once. Diluting your efforts. Sure after years of this you may well be able to play your tunes , in spite of your approach. not because of it.


I suppose it depends on what you want to achieve, as does so much in life. You want tp play tunes, or you want to play tunes to the best of your ability.
Back to the boxing analogy. You can learn to fight by going out there and fighting, you win some lose some. but dont think you will pick up good form, techniques which will enable you 20, 30 yrs down the road to progress because you wont.

I see too many fiddlers with atrocious techniques from learning tunes at the expense of their technique. sure they can play some tunes, but at what cost?

We mostly use a classical bow grip these days, we mostly hold the fiddle under the chin not on the chest. These are lessons we have learnt from the classical world. Why ignore the other lessons they have to teach? to what benefit?

But for how long are you going to play twinkle ? I still play my scales, , mind you I never learnt twinkle twinkle so perhaps i am missing something🙂

Yeah polkas are good starting tunes, but to play them at pace , with good enunciation and rhythm, is perhaps not so simple, A simple air such as The Foggy dew, or The Bold Fenian men, are in my estimation simpler to play right. well known and powerfully emotional stuff.

Jig. I’ll just have another go, having had a night’s kip and then having questioned my own sanity and found it sadly wanting (why else would I be posting this…quack…). You “see many fiddlers with atrocious techniques from learning tunes at the expense of their technique.” [sic] You are now (did I really say “now?”) resorting to making this up as you go along. Is this still to do with scales? What aspects of “technique” are picked up by playing scales that are not picked up by learning tunes? Holding the bow correctly? Nifty fingering? Playing in tune? Getting good tone? Now, continuing for another painful moment with your extremely inappropriate boxing analogy, I admit you have me on the ropes here somewhat as I don’t play the fiddle. But I do play an instrument and I have never practised scales. Sheerly out of a demented form of interest I picked up a harmonica a minute ago and played the diatonic scale up and down it. Hey, I could do it!! Never even thought to try it before! So I should like to present you with the following hypothesis. An incredibly effective way of learning to play scales is to spend years playing tunes. Voila! (or should that be “viola?”)





Wibble

Yeah, when I teach someone to ski, I don’t put him on some skis and get him to practice on easy slopes. They might get a bad habit or something. I get them to practice movements completely out of context, safely away from any snow, with no feedback which will tell them whether they are getting it right or not.

These proofs by analogy are so enlightening.

I don’t think you should allow them anywhere near skis for at least the first two years! Just show them videos of ski maestros in action, starting with Eddie The Eagle and working upwards (in a manner of speaking). You could even, in the case of ITM, show videos of the great fiddle masters playing scales, up and down, up and down, in all 12 major keys for starters, before you even let your students near a fiddle. Just dig those “techniques”! Jig has good lists of such maestros in his posts. That’ll learn all them young buggers how much fun it is!

Thread still going, but mainly round in circles.

Been thinking about Will’s answer to my question. I think my use of scales is much more mundane than anything someone might do if wanting to improvise or even work on, say, a Dorian scale. Just a case of helping to internalise a move of some familiar reference points in a major scale caused by, say changing C# to C. One thing that does on a flute is move some patterns (in tunes or whatever) that are easy on one part of the range of the instrument (all in the bottom octave) to somewhere where the mechanics are a bit harder (between the octaves), which is a place where the B part of many tunes hangs around for a long time. So nice to move a small set of old friends to a new place to mess around with and have a workout during practice. And those old friends include some things that are stress free and open to messing around with (scales etc) and some that are compelete in themselves (mainly small vocal-range traditional song melodies covering a range of modes)


Will, Michael. All this stuff about words (and Michael’s earlier bit about the alphabet) just seems silly. Sentences draw from a pool of thousands of words, each of which also means something on its own. But there are only a few ways, often only one, of arranging a small set to make sense. The order of an alphabet is a just a convention - it makes life simpler if we all learn them in the same order. Notes and intervals are not like that. Are they ?

Someone right up the thread said that playing scales is good for your intonation because you can more easily hear when you’re out. I don’t completely agree with this. There are many ways within all the scales of being “out” in that some of the instruments we play, and have to join in with in sessions, come in different fine-tunings, and some (notoriously, whistles) can be quite a bit all over the place in terms of accuracy to any particular fine-tuning scheme. Then of course you may be battling with the intonation issues of players of other non-fixed pitch instruments. Harmonicas come in a number of fine tunings from Just intonation right through to equal temperament, though I doubt that most people would do any conscious tweaking to get them to a particular scheme even if they knew or cared what fine-tuning their harps were in. So I don’t think that playing scales in isolation is going to help at all when it comes to the session situation. You really do have to listen to what’s going on around you and make constant micro-adjustments to your pitch as you go along. You can even do that with a harmonica. That kind of good musicianship can’t come out of working on your intonation by sitting at home playing scales. Doing scales in isolation may or may not help you if you are going to play unaccompanied (though I still think you can equally well, or even better, hear poor intonation in tunes), but I think this approach could be a setback in sessions akin to the rigidity of learning tunes just from dots.

Timo surely you show them how to put the ski’s on? give them some advice? or you just hand them, some skis and say right there you go? perhaps you expect an 8 year old to figure it out them selves? you give them a lift up the mountain? or a ski lift? you put them on the slopes or in an artificial environment?

My these facetious comments are so helpfull😎

Steve,>>Is this still to do with scales? What aspects of “technique” are picked up by playing scales that are not picked up by learning tunes<<
try it Steve borrow a fiddle, tune it up[ if you can😉] and see how easy it is….. you might find the Doh Re interval a challenge, then there is Re-mi, lets see how you cope with it, how your tunes sound….:-0

seriously though, without actually attempting something its a easy to take the micky, A simple major scale should be easy enough dont you think?

Interesting point you raise there Steve about the whistle and intonation, in comparison to what? what instrument are you comparing the intonation too?

There was a fellow who knew a thing or two about Irish music named Leo Rowsome- you may of heard of him.
He had his students plays nothing but exercises at the beginning, scales and arpeggios and the like.
I suppose it was all nonsense, and his pupils like Liam O Flynn and Paddy Moloney didnt’ learn how to play the pipes properly.

I teach beginning uilleann pipers and whistle players arpeggios for two reasons: 1) when they encounter an arpeggio in a tune they are capable of playing it cleanly and 2) when they’re trying to pick out a tune by ear they can quickly recognise arpeggios when they occur.
We don’t spend a lot of time on it, but being able to play and recognise arpeggios saves a lot of time and trouble later.

Steve. Yes, I sometimes keep half an eye on a tuner when playing slowly and my intonation is generally better on tunes that I am confident about than on scales. Apart from maybe fifths and octaves which I can hear pretty well out of context. Not yet sure how I will cope with the complex sounds at a session but playing along with a solo recording of a whistle that I know had slight idiosyncracies of intonation the adjustment is automatic providing I have enough physical control of the note - and am actually playing the right note.

Jig. I rather suspect that if Steve and many of other people on this board took an elastic band or a swannee whistle and started playing tunes on it the Doh-Re and Re-Mi intervals would be good by the time the tunes started sounding good Mine might be a bit dodgy, or maybe it would just take longer, but I would from what I have in my head to rely on I would have to start with a tune rather than a scale.

Oh come off it jig, I wouldn’t yet go to a session with anything other than a bodhran (if feeling brave) but even I know what Steve means about the whistle. Its obvious. The really good whistle players not only use the limited possibilities of embouchure control but vary the dynamics a bit so that they can get the important notes or intervals where they want them in pitch. I see this from simply tryng to work out why I sound so terrible.

I mean vary the dynamics in a creative way, rather than just play those notes louder or softer.

Well my students manage a simple scale without any problem? If you think thats hard try the fiddle!
David, if you try to play with a tuner you havent a hope in hell of getting it right! Tuners, bar the expensive ones , are set up for the tempered scale! The whistle is not!
see
http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/scales.html
for an explanation

Jig. Now I understand why you annoy some people so much.

Why do you assume I don’t know things that I do know and express that assumption in a condescending manner.

Try this for free:
http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~tuner/tuner_e.html

But think carefully about what those little dots marking the non equal tempered pitches mean. Especially when you play tunes in different modes. It is a bit more complicated than your little problem with the piano frequencies above.

So you are suggesting i assume you know everything?
Where do you set D then on your device? You dont use A 440 do you?

Jig has hinted at his apparent tone deafness a few times, but this is a clincher. When saying “my students manage a simple scale without any problem”, he is describing succinctly that he can’t tell either way.

He’s also read lots of books

I wasn’t comparing the whistle with other instruments there, as I think my post made clear enough. I was talking about it relative to any particular fine-tuning scheme. Unless played quite expertly, the average untweaked cheapie whistle of the Generation/Sweetone ilk is not very accurately tuned. I can’t speak for dearer models as I can’t afford ’em. The sensitive ear for his/her own intonation and for the sounds of the other instruments, along with the technical skills of the player, can allow him/her to make the necessary adjustments, as David says. David’s three posts in a row above are excellent, and just the sort of reflections that are useful on this forum. And he did not say he “played with a tuner.” He said he kept half an eye on it. Chisels men’s hands to magnify.

Jig, you must have some really patient students.

I am playing a flute jig. Practicing on my own it doesn’t matter where I set it, within reason. And as it is fairly cold in the woodshed at this time of year I often start off with it set a bit below 440. I will stuff it up my jumper when I take it to a session.

What matters is the relationship between the notes, and as Steve says, that also depends on what everyone else is choosing to do or having to do because of their instruments.

Sometime when it won’t start a fight I may start a discussion about it.

So steve you judge the whistle in comparison with what? a justly tuned D scale? your own ear? trained to recognise this scale? or to harmonise with a D drone?

i meant david, what pitch do you tune your tuner to?

Steve,

I may have said the thing about intonation and scales, I don’t remember anymore.

I know that people’s hand and arm setup, on fiddle, can make certain notes out of tune. I know that if I teach them a D scale, and they get used to how the half steps and whole steps line up, when they play a C scale later they more quickly learn that their notes for F nat are C natural are (most very probably) sharp and that they should fix them. This may be an easier step for some students than learning intonation from tunes. Yes, I could just teach them Tom Billy’s in D, then Tom Billy’s in C to get the same effect, but then they would want to play Tom Billy’s in C, which doesn’t have much application in Irish traditional music 😉

TheMuse, searching for arpeggio and scale patterns like that is simply brilliant. I’ll use that to find tunes for kids to help reinforce their scale playing. *ducks*

“I see too many fiddlers with atrocious techniques from learning tunes at the expense of their technique. sure they can play some tunes, but at what cost?”

Learning tunes at the expense of technique? In trad playing? Where do you think this music comes from? Do you really not think that trad technique can be learned by playing tunes? How do you think someone like, say, Michael Coleman learned to play?

“We mostly use a classical bow grip these days, we mostly hold the fiddle under the chin not on the chest. These are lessons we have learnt from the classical world. Why ignore the other lessons they have to teach? to what benefit? ”

What other lessons? Wide vibrato? Flying spicatto? Sight reading? Are you kidding me? There are a hell of a lot of lessons from the classical world that trad players would do well not to learn.

Oh Coleman I’m sure was hours practising his scales and arpeggios.

Kevin Burke too….Gavin is still at it - every night arpegios and scales.

No tunes, just scales….The Bothies came out with an album of scales once - brilliant it was !

Back to the subject of intonation which does relate to scales. As trad musicians the onus is upon us to play with the traditional instruments and their ‘foibles’ the whistle, flute and pipes and bodhran being the oldest.

Jig. I answered that it doesn’t matter what I set it to. For solo practice it is the relative pitches that matter.

macnasparade (Dan Foster ?)

They won’t let you get away with it twice.

I meant *and* Dan. I was wondering about collusion rather than rule breaking.

The sensible members will pardon your reaction? But you don’t think any of us are sensible! You could try again with that post about judging whistles. I didn’t understand it. Only if you want to, though.

“I see too many fiddlers with atrocious techniques from learning tunes at the expense of their technique”

One or two replies here have, I think, confused “technique” with the technical “tricks of the trade” which may be used in other types of music but not in Irish music. Irish music, of course, has its own particular tricks of the trade, such as rolls and cuts, which are rarely to be found elsewhere.

“Atrocious techniques”, to my mind, mean poor, if not downright bad, intonation, and likewise poor tonal quality (which boils down to inadequate control of the bow). These two things do not need an enormous amount of time to deal with but they do need concentrated listening to oneself. A few minutes of concentrated practice, as advised by a good teacher, is probably all that is needed, and then you go on to the tunes. If you’re concentrating then it is not boring; if it is boring then you’re not concentrating and therefore deriving no benefit.

I agree with Michael that Irish fiddle playing, as far as fingering of the notes is concerned, is inherently simple and is a tiny fraction of what a player in many other genres will have to cope with. If Irish fiddle music is all the fiddle music you are ever going to want to play, then you don’t need to bother much, if at all, with formal scale practice because the finger patterns needed to play the music are limited in number and can be acquired in a few weeks. The rest is neuromuscular development of the hand and fingers, which is naturally going to take longer. If you are into, or want to play, other types of violin music then you’ll know what needs to be done, without me telling you.

However, even though you know which finger to plant down inorder to play a note on the string that of itself is not enough to guarantee good intonation. What you need to do is to isolate intonation practice from playing tunes, because a tune is going to be a distraction from the concentration you need when learning to play the notes in tune. This isolation is no more than playing two, three and four notes very slowly on one string and listening hard. In the early stages a beginner may need the help of a more experienced player to tell whether a note is in or out of tune. The slow playing is also where you practice the bowing technique necessary to produce a firm tone - a firm tone as opposed to a wishy-washy or glassy sound, Note that a firm tone can be of any dynamic from pianissimo to fortissismo. A poor tone won’t have such a dynamic range and doesn’t project - very good reasons for working on a good tone.

This is not the place to go into the details of left-hand position and bowing technique. These have been discussed elsewhere, and anyway need gface-to0face teaching to put across properly.

Arpeggios (as distinct from scales). These need a little more work than the small amount of scale fingering needed for Irish fiddle because the finger patterns for the various arpeggios are more difficult to learn (possibly as the finger patterns for guitar chords can be). So slow practice for a few minutes each practice period is the order of the day. In this connection, one of the most influential fiddle teachers in Bristol over a decade (she’s now in Co Kerry) in her beginners’ workshops would always start them off with a few slow arpeggios.

“However, even though you know which finger to plant down inorder to play a note on the string that of itself is not enough to guarantee good intonation.”

Yes, that’s a good distinction. But I disagree that playing tunes is too much of a distraction from concentrating on intonation. The tunes are pretty simple, not much more complicated than scales and arpeggios.

As far as practicing arpeggios goes, I’m sure that it can be helpful in the beginning, but if you start out by playing polkas slowly without ornaments, you’re pretty much practicing arpeggios, aren’t you? And you have the bonus of learning actual tunes to play.

I just don’t think that trad tunes are complicated enough that you need to focus on non-tune exercises, though I agree that scales and arpeggios can be somewhat useful in the beginning. But even then, it’s very debatable as to whether or not the time would be better spent on actual tunes.

Well, lazyhound made the points I was trying to make much better than I made them yesterday. There’s been a lot of objection on this thread to the time required for technical exercises and how they steal time from learning tunes, and I just don’t get it, because we’re only talking about a few minutes a practice session. It’s not like the goal is to spend an hour a day playing scales and arpeggios.

And I disagree about tunes being just as simple as scales. For fiddle, at least, tunes give you string crossings to worry about, complex rhythms, ornamentations and variations, general musicality---there’s so much going on that you don’t have to worry about when playing a scale, and that makes it more difficult to isolate elements like intonation and tone production. Of course, you can separate out bits of the tunes as exercises, and I do that too. But why not use every method available to improve?

OK screetch, but did you not practice scales etc?

Once again you can dissagree all you like but that doesnt effect the fact that in many cases scales are essential in developing good intonation.
When i pick up my fiddle, the first thing i do is play the D major scale, ok in tune, then G major, ok, then A major, Double stops, all ok, right i can play tunes. All harmonious, I dont have to adjust my fingers, they know where to go. i adjust the tuning. I play with a lot of Drones and chords, and double stops for this good tuning is essential.

The validity and efficacy of scales etc may well be debatable in some circles , here for example, but if the king of pipers thinks they are essential, i for one would feel very foolish debating it with him😎

Steve, where was i unclear?

>>you judge the whistle in comparison with what? a justly tuned D scale? your own ear? trained to recognise this scale? or to harmonise with a D drone?<<

You tell me that the intonation is out on whistles, so i simply ask in relation to what? what system are you using as your comparison?
If the whistle is good enough for Willie Clancy, a fine player if there ever was, why is it not good enough for you? do you even play the whistle?

“What you need to do is to isolate intonation practice from playing tunes, because a tune is going to be a distraction from the concentration you need when learning to play the notes in tune.”

Yup, exactly what I’ve been saying. But I don’t know if playing DEF#GABc#d is really any more useful in helping improve intonation than playing DGF#Ec#dAB, really, so I don’t know if I would defend practicing scales as such, so much as I would defend playing **meaningless sequences of notes** - sequences that appear outside time signatures, sequences that don’t demand implicitly that certain notes be emphasized or downplayed. Since scales are such crap tunes, I am not inadvertently trying to get them to “work” holistically when I play them - I’m just focusing on the pitch (and sometimes tone) of each individual note.

“There’s been a lot of objection on this thread to the time required for technical exercises and how they steal time from learning tunes, and I just don’t get it”

Me neither. I’m not practicing scales instead of learning tunes. I’m practicing scales instead of cleaning my apartment.

There seems to be some misunderstanding here by people who dont practice scales etc. The Etc bit. This encompasses arpeggio, random notes, intervals, double stops in third + fifths, broken chords, numerous logical patterns, rhythmic exercises, bowing patterns, individual phrases from tunes, string crossing and all the other drills a fiddler might practice,. None of which are tunes.
These are all technical isolation exercises to aid us in the personal expression within the context of traditional Irish tunes.
At what point we choose to lkeave these behind is a personal one, or take them on board at all. However to deny their use is simply blindin g your self to , as far as I an d many are concerned’ a self evident truth.
Richard mentioned the pipes, a seriously difficult instrument to master, that in many ways makes the fiddle appear to be childs play[ in trad]
To attempt to play tunes before blowing a clear steady tone and mastering a basic scale and possibly arpeggio would ,to me , appear to be madness.. Perhaps with a relatively easy instrument like the fiddle[ compared to the pipes] it is possible to attain a high level without these basic drills, fair enough, but I propose this is inspite of, rather than due to,this lack of basic practice.

Ha! Ain’t that the truth---I used to have an immaculate apartment before I started learning to play music…

“OK screetch, but did you not practice scales etc?”

Well sure, because I started out playing classical. No one is saying that classical players shouldn’t practice scales. But we’re talking about trad here, and I’ve never felt the need to practice scales once I started playing trad exclusively.

“Once again you can dissagree all you like but that doesnt effect the fact that in many cases scales are essential in developing good intonation.”

Not really. Possibly useful, but not essential. The only essential thing in developing good intonation is an open ear.

I want to tell jig that I really do NOT think that the whistle is not good enough for me. I love the whistle. I have whistles. I buy whistle CDs. I even blow whistles in the privacy of my home (and lament the apparent lack of connection between my fingers and brain). I want to tell him this but I can’t because he’ll misread my post and I find that scary after a while. Would someone else please tell him for me.

Ermm….OK, then Steve.
Jig, Steve says “I want to tell jig that I really do NOT think that the whistle is not good enough for me. I love the whistle. I have whistles. I buy whistle CDs. I even blow whistles in the privacy of my home (and lament the apparent lack of connection between my fingers and brain). I want to tell him this but I can’t because he’ll misread my post and I find that scary after a while.”

Micheal, I don’t know where you get the energy to tolerate all this ‘whistles are a reliable tuning reference’/‘scales are incredibly important in trad.’ crap, let alone respond to the poor ignorant souls. You have the patience of a saint.

And regarding the fiddle to be ‘a relatively easy instrument’ cf. pipes in trad comment - really? Oh no you didn’t…

FMF

David h, to answer your question a mile back up this thread--

No, the Green Eggs and Ham thing is not a perfect analogy. Music is a different form of language than the written or spoken word.

But each genre of music does have it’s own syntax, it’s own way of juxtaposing notes and phrases that make sense within that genre. My point in scrambling green eggs and ham was that playing straight scales or arpeggios, or even random scale-based notes and arpeggios tends to ignore the syntax of Irish trad music.

An experienced teacher who’s immersed in Irish trad can provide scale patterns and arpeggios based on the idiomatic syntax of This Music, so that his/her students aren’t practicing sequences of notes that have no relation to the language the students are trying to learn.

But these idiomatic note patterns come straight out of tunes. So I like to teach my students a simple tune, to give them the context and motivation for doing any isolated exercises.

Thanks, Danny. Can I come out from behind your skirt now please? 😀

So lets be clear here you are of the opinion that the teaching methods of Someone like Leo Rowsome should not have taught scales and arpeggio? Really, please explain to us how a G major arpeggio is not related to the idiomatic syntax of Irish music? or that we dont find ABC# triplets within the A Major and mix scales, or EF#G triplets in D major?

“It’s only a flesh wound! Come back, I’ll bite your knees off!”

At some point you just have to ignore the Black Knight and walk away.

Seriously, everything that can be said about this topic has been said about three times over already.

Jig why do you bother posting here if you’re not going to actually read the other posts? You’ve got totally wrong what I clearly said about Leo Rowsome’s method, and you’ve twisted everything else I’ve said.

Found him!

Anyone who wants to see a picture of jig, here he is! Everybody else should look away now.

http://www.squeezeboxireland.com/view_user.php?view=tenthpiper

Does anybody recognise him?

Well, I’ve never heard a “trad player” call themselves a “violinist.” Not that it surprises me in this case….

Oh, Will, but there’s more.

’up for a few tunes?
based around scarrif, looking for some musicians to form a band.21st C trad.

Violinist seeking Guitarist Location:Clare’

‘21st C trad’? Jig’s obviously a T Rex or Sigue Sigue Sputnik fan.

Funny how he’s never posted his local session on this site (you know, the one with all the ‘famous musicians’) or one of his many compositions. You can see some of the latter at http://www.ipernity.com/home/tradpiper. I’m sure you’ll be thrilled by the experience.

Okay, so I only noodled through of few of Billy’s tunes, and they’re nothing to write home about, but they’re not atoricious either. The salient thing, though, is that the ones I played were all ARPEGGIOS, not really melodies in the usual sense. By this, I mean they’re just arpeggiated patterns filling in a chord progression. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, if that’s what you want to play. But it certainly demonstrates one possible result of starting every day playing scales and arpeggios….

Just saw your post Will.
She has played Irish music, including E dorian, once a week for 7 years.

Erm, “atrocious” (which is what my typing became as I tapped out the very word)

Billy, fair play to you. You clearly love the music, in your way, and I applaud your desire to create and share music.

After seeing some of your tunes and knotwork, etc., and considering the reception you keep getting here on the bile board, it seems safe to say that you come at this music from a different angle than lots of other people who also love this music and have their own creative muses.

I hope you can at least let others enjoy *their* passion for this music and *their* creative freedoms in their own ways. Without insinuating that we’re lesser musicians because we don’t follow your way or “the one way of the masters.” The masters themselves come to this music by many varied ways.

Will. Ok, thanks, now I understand your point about syntax and idiom. And I have taken a copy of your list of tunes from higher up. Just in case this discussion degenerates to the point where it vanishes.

It is near impossible to read this entire thread & respond.
Agreed?
The Dr. Suess butchery was not an imperfect analogy it actually was so well formatted it forces you to read it.
Come on Will ~ part of the solution or . . .
You take te alpha position but why on this question with all
due respect to macnasparade.
What is wrong with directing answers to the poster & not only one another.
Been there done that.

I have never practiced scales and arpeggios on the bodhran, and it has not made one bit of difference to my playing.

And I only learnt scales on the mandolin about 5 years ago, after playing one for 30 years.

But I never practice them, which is possible why my playing lacks something.

🙂

Bliss, for the tuppence it’s worth, you’ve come up a notch or two in my estimation. I’ve played with bodhraners who apparently ***have*** practiced their scales and arpeggios, and nothing is more annoying.
🙂

David, one of my favorite tunes for flute, especially when you’re fairly new to the instrument, is The Orphan (https://thesession.org/tunes/217). See my ideas in the comments there about how you can use the tune to work on your cuts and rolls as the tune walks up the scale.

Other great tunes for getting your fingers oriented on flute or whistle, and hearing the scale-oriented idioms of this music include:

Burning of the Piper’s Hut
Greenfields of Rossbeigh
My Mind Will Never Be Easy (try it first in Bm)
Whinny Hills of Leitrim
Dance of the Honeybees
The Last Pint
The Mountain Road
Kid on the Mountain

All of these are in the tune archives here, and I think you’ll be happy to find how comfortable most of them are under your fingers on flute. They’ll also walk you through a range of keys and modes, even on a keyless flute.

Have fun, and let me know which tunes here really helped, if any.

2 different topics;
1. How do you start scales & arpeggios on fiddle?
2. If you like that sort of thing fine ~ but it has no place in playing tunes (or playing bodhran)
The question was #1
The overwhelming response was # 2
At what point does a reasonable person post a new thread?
With all due respect.
Just musing.

For scales and arpeggios, go here: http://www.violinmasterclass.com/scales.php

Or here: http://sarkett.com/vsc/violin_scale_charts.shtml

To play Irish fiddle, go to the above sites if you’re curious or want to, but realize that practicing scales and arpeggios on fiddle for Irish music is optional, not required.

Now back to our regular programming, sponsored by the World Verbal Wrestling Federation….

I am not on your case.
You just seem to be offering opinions which are valid.
But since they are contrary to the original question you
(or any other optionalist) are free to take ownership of that
viewpoint. Starting a new thread is also optional but sometimes it is also prudence. I am trying to show respect
for macnasparade.
Though it is always possible I may be misguided.

typo
~ sometimes it is prudent.

No worries, Muse. I knew you weren’t on my case.

But the short answer to macnasparade is that you don’t “need” to play scales and arpeggios. So it begs the way the question was framed. Seems a reasonable point to call to his/her attention.

BTW, some of the examlples of violinists playing scales on the Sassmannshaus Masterclass site are priceliess for demonstrating how playing scalesd does not necessarily guarantee good intonation. The “Intonation” links are also worth exploring, particularly the video showing when to use Pythagorean and just intonation. Shows how fluid or at least flexible intonation on a fiddle has to be to sound “in tune,” even to itself.

The 4th post here from me does just that., such as
>>You really need a teacher or friend who has been there before to show you the way. There’s only so much you can get from words on a page.<<

To which Llig replied , stuff and nonesense, just play tunes, which, if i am not mistaken started this whole free for all off.

For myself , and Im sure many people here, see dans reply, have found the opposite to be the case, perhaps struggling for years making little or no headway before finding that scales helped us immensely
If the instruction of a renowned trad musician like Mr Rowsome, is to be respected then it is clear that scales and technical exercises have a place within the learning process.
Obviously it is up to the individual whether they take that on board or not.
Personally I do not feel that there is anyone who cant get better than they allready are. Therefore, any training methodology that can help us improve is to be welcomed.

There have been all sorts of comments made here, and diversions from the thread, some possibly usefull, others clearly not. I suppose its all part of a day on the mustard board. have fun and enjoy your music. I will.

Will I never know when these threads come up if it is a new member or not.
I play it safe at 1st. Nurture the novice but maybe don’t contribute to a windup. That is why I say there is the option of a new thread. Windups ~ they are guaranteed. You might know this one;
Did both Ms. Lee & The Reverend find better company elsewhere?

I will read your responses simply because I see Mr. Rowsome’s name has been . . . d r o p p e d.
& the beat goes on . . .

Absolutely muse, how else are we meant to progress? a combination of copying masters and self application. I have no problem in expressing my willingness to adhere to the lessons of a man like that… why should I?

Muse, I didn’t take the initial post as a wind up at all. My reply--my first post on this thread--was a good-humored attempt to suggest an alternative to scale and arpeggio drills.

The initial poster, and anyone else, can take it or leave it.

Of course not Will.
It is an unfortunate byproduct of the history tab.
Come on now ~ Does Zina miss the mustard people?
Or has she evolved to a different realm.

Wherever she is, she must be a bloody sight saner than most of us have ended up on this thread. I can’t make up my mind whether I’m having fun or whether I’m in hell. “What mind?” do I hear you say. Say goodnight to the folks, Gracie. Wibble.

Ha, I like that. We all know the devil playes the fiddle. But now we know that when you go to hell, you sit with him for eternity not actually playing the fiddle, but playing scales

All is answered:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hu8HgECx6-c

play video

Will, he sounds better than I did when I started on violin.

He’s doing great for three weeks. The bow is perpendicular to the strings and everything. I know some people who have played way longer who can’t do that.

Oh, and regarding scales and arpeggios, some work with them when learning an instrument can be valuable, but it is much more fun to do it in context of a tune. For example, arpeggios in Alexander’s Hornpipe, which is full of em, and for BC box players, that difficult descending A, F#, D arpeggio can be practiced by playing Off She Goes. While the push notes on the accordion are in the same places in each octave, the pull notes are not, so playing scales to the top and bottom of the row as best you can is a good thing for a beginner to do. And also, playing scales using the E and B that appear in the outside row, as well as playing the scales the usual way, can be of benefit. So once again, I am in the middle of a discussion, seeing value in some drills, but preferring tunes as more fun.

Will. Thanks - again!

First post a wind-up ?

The “Progress and Practicing” discussion was mainly fiddle related so I was going to submit another discussion asking about scales and patterns. But as a long time lurker I was so sure that it would either be taken as a wind-up or start an argument that I decided to leave it for a few days.

So the timing of that first post from new member struck me as highly suspect.

I hope macnasparade is lurker with a fine sense of mischief because if not he may have got depressing picture of this board.

Scales are better than bones, but really aren’t as nice as the flesh

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41660000/jpg/_41660470_mark_ellison.jpg

Erm, here’s a shorter link:
http://www.maxwaugh.com/images/yellowstone04/otter3.jpg

… or ‘boning’ up on arpeggios.

That’s a nice trout he has there.

Unless he’s a very small otter, I guess.

Mark, she has you eating out of the palm of her hand.

http://www.australiazoo.com.au/our-animals/amazing-animals/images/profile_104_250.jpg

Does Mrs. Ottery know about this? tsk tsk….

Oooh. And here’s a good practical drill for those trad players looking for a little challenge (I particularly like the url name):

http://www.chopsfromhell.com/vejlyt1_taplick.gif

I’ve never seen her before. What makes you think that was me? That’s not me.

Well maybe it is, but I can assure you it went absolutely no further than what you can see in that photo.

And I was young, and depressed and on medication at the time.

And how was I to know that someone would invent the World-Wide-Wonder-Web and dredge up all that ancient history and try to ruin my life?
again?

Will, would you please ‘ confine this discussion to the subject in hand from now on’

or I’ll tell Jig ……








Look, PLEASE don’t tell Mrs. O.

Chops from Hell?
That’s exactly a transcription of what will come out of Mrs. O’s mouth if she sees that picture of me canoodling with young Kylie there…

I’d better toddle off and poach her a nice bream to keep her sweet.

The argument is clear. Some instruments more than others need a lot of technical, ‘ boring’’ work [ NOT my word I hasten to add } , ie scales etc. to attain a clear sweet sound. and some people more than others need this. To make a blanket statement that scales are unnecessary for Irish music, demonstrates that whoever said it has not experienced the need for them. NOT that they are unnecessary at all. That is simply a statement not rooted in fact. This may even be his personal experiance. fair enough, but we all have limited experiance, Which is why we rely on the traditional methods handed down to us by those who have been there befo.
It is wise to leave caveat’s when making pronouncements. He also said specifically the fiddle. This again, though it may be his personal experiance, simply is not mine. Therefore he can not be correct. A true statement would include this fact‘’ in my experiance‘’ which clearly could not be denied.

I gather this individual in question spent many years under a classical regime, which explains his distaste for it perhaps.?

I would not suggest the man in the video try learning tunes yet, Oh, and I dont class twinkle toes , in that category.
It is not an Irish tune. this is a website for ITM.
Actually it resembles a technical exercise with a somewhat catchy melody. Too catchy by far! I found myself humming it while cooking Dinner! ye gods! what will they bring on next? .

My position which has not wavered under this determined assault is that the practice of 1st position scales and arpeggios etc help both me and my students to play ITM with good technical form.
They are recommended by Teachers I admire with and follow a logical progression.

I am not in the habit of giving students what they want. they can find plenty others who are happy to do that. I am in the habit of giving them what, in my estimation, they need, be it tunes arpeggios or whatever they require to facilitate their own personal development. This is the philosophy of our school. We stand by it.


Now Al, was there anything I didnt make clear enough? 😎

This must be him, standing by his school.

http://www.jjn.gsacrd.ab.ca/aboutjjn/ourschoolimages/open_02.jpg

Note how he’s digging the hole even deeper….

King Billy wrote: ‘This is the philosophy of our school. We stand by it’?

Please do provide us with the name of this establishment.

I’ve also found this one of Billy the Jig searching for arpeggios.

http://www.comedy-zone.net/pictures/images/bizarre/bizarre006.jpg

I hate to point this out, but the poor, no doubt completely shell-shocked fool who made the mistake of starting this ‘discussion’ says his favourite band is ‘Enter The Haggis’. This sort of activity may be legal, even lauded, in the "Mid West’ where he resides, but is frowned upon and often actually illegal elsewhere, particularly now the wholesale trafficking of Easter European haggises (Haggi?) has reached epidemic proportions.
Maybe advice on scales and arpeggios should wait until he puts the rest of his house in order.

Easter European?

I’m off to the pub …….

,
I’m a beginning fiddle player, and I need to practice scales and arpeggios in G, D, and A major and E, D, and A minor.
I’ve practiced a few scales, but as far as arpeggios, I’m not really sure where to begin. About all I know is that an arpeggio is the three notes of a chord played individually (right?)
If anyone has any hints or suggestions on practicing scales and arpeggios, I would greatly appreciate it. I’m new to The Session, and I’ve already found it to be a great resource.
Many thanks!!
# Posted on January 7th 2008 by macnasparade
Re: Practicing scales and arpeggios
I like scales and arpeggios coz i’m a classically trained player now playing trad tunes!
For the easiest ones (that’s G, D and A major Arp)…play it for one octave first of all which means…
open G,
then 2nd finger, B
open D
then third finger. G
There’s your G major arpeggio!
For the other two, D and A, simply play the same finger pattern but for D start on the D string,
similarly for A, start on the A string
hope this helps!
if you do this and practice certain easy tunes for scales RakesOFMallow,WinsterGallop[english]PadraigOkeefes[Brosnans]polka.
for arpeggios,Shandon bells PaddysReturn,Tobins Favourite,Da SouthEnd[Willie Hunter ShetlandTune]Atholl Highlanders.Sweeneys Polka in A major.
Llig leachim surely the purpose of this thread is to help the original poster,if you dont want to help him/her ,but want to provoke another poster, do it somewhere else.Dick Miles

As a beginner Its important to learn to tune the fiddle, The interval in the first two words of twinkle twinkle little star is the same interval between your strings, GGDD. When these sound right, then you play your scale From Low G to the middle G, Doh reh etc and when you arrive at that G, compare it by ear to the low G by playing both together. .
The first note you place your finger on, the A should be in harmony with the D string .

Good luck, enjoy.

There is a provision for posting & discussing issues.
This thread seems to have come to that point.

😉

As a beginner It’s important to learn to tune the fiddle, The interval in the first two words of twinkle twinkle little star is the same interval between your strings, GGDD. When these sound right, you have cracked the first hurdle of learning to play the fiddle by practising tunes. keep it up

ha, in fact, there is more information there than you need - the GGDD bit. What I should have said is: The interval in the first two words of twinkle twinkle little star is the same interval between all your strings

Thank you Will, and yes, bodhran players talking about notes and overtones and scales really is annoying. It is a drum, you hit it.

By the way, Jig understands me, and I will not sit by and watch him be attacked. He is entitled to his/her opinion as much as anyone.

And a lot of people left the site when someone disagreed with them. “Dominant” types are often like that.

And when you have this, move on to the word “little”.



Try “Twinkle” as two notes on either the 1st, 2nd or 3rd string (counting from the deepest sounding string up)

The next “twinkle” is two notes on the next string.

Then “little” is achieved by by putting your index finger about half an inch up the neck on the same string that you played the second twinkle. Move your finger about until it sounds right.


OR


Your first string is called the G string, the next the D string, the next the A string and the thinnest one the E string. The intervals are called fifths.

To play “twinkle twinkle little” here are three options:
GGDDEE, this would be playing it in the key of Gmaj
DDAABB. this would be playing it in the key of Dmaj
AAEEBB. this would be playing it in the key of Amaj

For the first option, start on the first string, your G string, and play two crotchets. Move up to the next string, the D string. and play two more crotchets. The next two note you play with your index finger on the D string. This interval is called a sixth above the root and completes an arpegio that goes root root fifth fifth sixth sixth.

ex bloody cetera

Ottery - make sure you never eat a haggis which has been previously entered, as they carry ticks and other parasites. The practice of entering haggii had been eradicated in Scotland by 1698, but reintroduced by maurauding Redcoats after 1745, when Billy Butlin established his first colony at Ayr. It is now endemic in South Ayrshire, and at Dalmellington Seminary there is still an illegal haggis entering competition, held every St Michael’s Day, attended by members of a clandestine cult who come from miles around to embrace this strange tradition.

te he

I didn’t quite understand your alternative fingering schemes there, Michael. I don’t suppose you have the dots for them by any chance…😉

Yes, of course I have them.

However, I am not in the habit of giving students what they want. they can find plenty others who are happy to do that. I am in the habit of giving them what, in my estimation, they need, This is the philosophy of my (I love the way he wrote “our”) school

😀

As far as teaching regimes go, I feel assured that our approach is effective.
If I am wrong then so is Leo Rowsome. For we both taught/teach scales and arpeggio.


ITs just like providing for my kids, they may want sweets and Gak for breakfast, but I dont give it to them. They have been raised on a basically organic wholefood diet. Do they like it? Yes , they like they feeling a healthy diet gives them . They like the security of knowing that I care. That I will not always take the easy option and give in to their incessant demands. They know they can trust me. They feel secure within the clear boundaries set.
Music is not all instant satisfaction. It is also about hard work and consistent application of effort.

Ahem, gentle men. May I call you that? IT is a ‘’school of thought.‘’ It is also the school of thought of numerous of my instructors over the years. ;

Good basic technique will allow the individual to grow and progress throughout their lifetime without being confined and constrained by poor technique. Whether a couple or three people here disagree is hardly important. These methods have been proven over centuries throughout the world. Simple really.

scales and arpeggio.

there are numerous rhythmic patterns to practice arpegio. and combinations of them. Taking it that yoiu now know the basic notes macnasparade, try GBD, BDG,DGB,GBD. as triplets then down from the high G, GDB,DBG,BGD, GDB and so on.

try, GBDG, DGBD,GBDG,BDGhighB, then downGDBG,DBGD, BGDB,GDBG.
Make sense?
Just concentrate on your bowing, the relaxation of the ‘tension triangle’ and good intonation. try not to attempt to advance too quickly. Attention on basic form will stand you in good stead later on.. muck about with these ideas, enjoy them. good luck

jig, cudos on providing your children with a healthy and whole grain based diet…that’s what we do

god help them otherwise

Look, the caricature you create in your mind is not me, dont make the mistake of assuming you know anything much about me, or that you can then make assumptions based on your caricature. You will simply be deluding your self. There is enough delusion in this world without adding to the confusion.
My kids are happy healthy well balanced and charming individuals. With strong well formed personalities. They are a pleasure to be about and I am very proud of them. They are patient, highly intelligent individuals, and We are all the best of friends. and that is ALL that matters to me.

Much has been said in this thread about Leo Rowsome’s teaching methods. I doubt if anyone here actually experienced them in person, so I’d like to know where the proof is that he taught in the fashion described above in this thread. Source of that information please.

JIg, you are right…my kids are my best friends, too..

I was just jerkin yer chain

Kenny, I doubt Rowsome really teaches that way---I think Jig just heard he plays scales and decided that Rowsome teaches the same starvation diet of technical exercises that he does. Jig has never once given a source for anything he says.

Kenny This is as far as I am aware a universal practice. you learn to blow each note individually before joining them together. You normally start at the bottom and work your way up.
How would you suggest we do it?

Read the thread kenny.

See what I mean?

sorry, i misread kenny for kennedy. I should have said read the thread kennedy.

I read it. You said Rowsome had his students play nothing but scales at the beginning. How do you know this? You didn’t provide a source. This is what Kenny was asking about.

What starvation diet kennedy? you seem to be using your imagination creating a picture in your mind far removed from reality.

I’ll go out on a limb here and suggest that anyone who reads this entire thread will readily see the gaps--nay, chasms--in jig’s thinking on this matter. And they’ll see how he denigrates anyone who learns or teaches by a different method (even though that method too may be “proven over centuries throughout the world”).

So it’s simple really. He’s made his points, and he can’t stand it that the rest of us are too dumb to accept the gospel of jig.

Cow tipping, anyone?

“You normally start at the bottom and work your way up”

OK, so we are not just talking about fiddles.

What are we blowing ?

Starvation diet = for fidde, scales/arpeggios only, no tunes until the students reaches a proficient level of intonation

This is your method, correct?

My source is Richard in his post above, if you read the thread you would know that. As i said, how else would you suggest teaching the pipes? considering that playing one note is a tricky enough feat as it is! just play tunes is it?
As it happens as Leo Rowsome was also a committed user of ‘’the dots‘’ according to manuscripts and contemporary accounts.

Now fair enough we were talking both generally in relation to Irish music and specifically fiddle.

Will n Llig are convinced that they did not need scales there for no one does. I can accept that some people are able to learn to play tunes without scale practice, However the 2 fiddlers who have said that both came to the fiddle from other instruments. Will practised many scales, not on the fiddle perhaps, but that is really besides the point. Scale practise is part of training the ear. partly allowing concentration on other matters such as bowing.posture etc.

Now I play a number of tunes on the guitar, mostly in first position. perhaps I could have learnt to do this without the scales practice. Maybe there is someone here who did so. However Practising scales on the guitar increases my fluency dramatically. There for I teach scales .
I learnt to play tunes on the cello, via scale practice. I learnt to play tunes on the Viola through scale practice. Banjo, whistle, etc etc. my students enjoy there technical exercises , not at first perhaps, but once they started receiving the rewards ….. One 13yr old can pick up a jig in 30min entirely by ear because her ear is trained to understand the arpeggio and intervals. Through scale practice. need I go on? I only quote known authority’s for the disbelievers, I allready know that they work.

‘’ no tunes until the students reaches a proficient level of intonation‘’ well how do you define proficient? perhaps our definition is different? For sure each student is different. A one octave scale plus a note perhaps might not take some people too long? two octaves and 2 covers most tunes.

It depends on the individual how long that takes. Personally I dont generally teach twinkle but It has been known😎


WE are discussing scales etc in relation to Irish music. that includes any instrument effectively. How do you teach a young student to finger a note? answer; slowly and carefully.
If you try to rush through it you end up with scrappy playing that may or may not result , eventually, in a performance that others might enjoy.

That I played rock and blues scales on guitar, but never any scales on fiddle is NOT “beside the point.” It is precisely the crux of why scales aren’t necessary for playing IRISH FIDDLE (though they may be harmless, unless they cut into your tune playing time).

Here’s a quote from jig above:
"I agree, too much perfection can seem a bit soul less, but though i practice scales etc and i aim for a lovely professional; tone i doubt i will actually achieve it! . sigh,
I certainly didnt say scales are a requirement, they are simply advisable for a player to concentrate on tone and intonation without also having to try and play a tune."

If he doesn’t have a lovely tone after 15 years of playing scales, why is he so hellbent on convincing the rest of us that scales are the way to good tone and intonation?! Especially those of us who do have “lovely professional tone”?

In short, take his advice or leave it--he certainly said they’re “not a requirement.” And he serves as an excellent self-proclaimed example of what happens when you keep doing the same unecessary thing, expecting different results.

Okay, fine, you were going by what Richard Cook said about Rowsome (you could have just said that instead of whining that I should just read the thread, though). Interesting that you’ve tried to extrapolate that into where you say that the best teachers all teach that way, and therefore your method is the only one worthwhile enough to follow.

Hey Kennedy! How are those index-ringer finger arpeggios I sent you working out?
🙂

Hey Will, you could have just had me play the Kerry Polka, you know…
🙂

I’ll let you know more this weekend…

Why do you assume I played scales for 15 yrs will? And perhaps your standards are different,? to explain, I would like to be able to play as well liz Doherty amongst others. , that is what I aspire to. so yes, I make no bones that I cant play as well as her. but thats ok, sigh, I just want to reach my potential. Perhaps I played tunes to start with? perhaps I aim higher than you, well, as you have told us you do not attempt double stops in 5th position, I do.
Yeah yeah yeah there not much higher positions in trad stuff in trad, big deal. I play tunes an awfull lot, and I dont do as much scale work as i should perhaps, but I am not competing with you will, or anyone. I am not determined to ‘win ’ an argument, I dont need to, just making my position clear. You say you have ‘’ lovely professional tone, Great, good for you, care to demonstrate?

You say playing scales on the guitar is irrelavant. I dissagree, playing scales on any instrument trains the ear to recognise the steps and intervals. Are you trying to tell us that nothing you learnt from the guitar and banjo has any relevance to the process of learning the fiddle?

It may not be gaps in thinking, just not thinking before typing.

“you learn to blow each note individually before joining them together. You normally start at the bottom and work your way up.” posted by jig above.

I have just checked 5 beginners whistle tutors and one flute tutor
3 start at C# (and go down)
1 starts at G (and goes down)
1 starts at G and then straight to D
1 starts at B (and goes down)

Jig do you really start them off with six potentially leaking fingers and a note that can be hard to blow properly ?

‘’ therefore your method is the only one worthwhile enough to follow.‘’ Kennedy, I did not say that. I said it is a tried and trusted method used through out the world.

Neither did I say ‘’the best teachers all teach that way‘’ though I might think it.


So if that is the latest tactic, misrepresentation, perhaps you can consider your argument won, happy are you? I submit to the weighty judgement of all you sessioners and will just play tunes from now on. Not a scale or arpeggio shall pass my bow. I will abandon my students to a formless unstructured world of do it your self , make it up as you go along, pick a tune and play it. I will abandon my pursuit of excellence, stick to first position and contentedly scratch away to my hearts content. Do my best to forget all the lessons I learnt,forget the advice of ages, and just listen to Llig and will .

There, happy are you? after all , if Will can do it, we all can. right?

Fair enough David, you got me. you are right . for the whistle. But I think we were talking about the pipes, right? normally a pipe student has all ready got that bit on the whistle, and or practice chanter.

Jig, you implied both those things, very clearly. I don’t have time at the moment to go back and sift through your posts to find your exact words (which I think are on another thread). Just remember that at *no* point have you ever conceded that anyone else teaching another method might be offering something of value.

Hmmm…lets do the math. You’ve said you’ve played fiddle for 15 years. You see no other way but scales and the careful placement of one finger at a time to get proper intonation. You;ve said that you use scales daily still as a warm up.

Got me. I can’t imagine why I thought you followed your own dogma….

By the way, a guitar isn’t a fiddle, actual blues scales aren’t very common in Irish trad tunes, and I learned to hear the intervals of Irish music by playing Irish music.

If I wasted my time playing double stops in 5th position (you go, jig!), I’d probably know half the tunes I do and not play them as well, having spent less time in first and second position, where all the tunes are. You seem to have lost sight of the fact that this is a traditional Irish music web site, not a primer for symphony soloists (not that you’ll ever be one of those either, by your own admission).

Funny, I don’t aspire to Liz Doherty’s tone, or anyone else’s. Why would you want someone else’s tone? Isn’t the point to develop your own tone?

I like my own tone (and expressive tonal range) and intend to keep developing it.

And your last sentence is so misrepresentative of anything I’ve said here, it’s just doesn’t deserve a response.

Fair enough will, then refrain from responding. No I dont expect you to provide a demonstration.
And i have clearly said numerous times that I am espousing the methods of my instructors. It is they who demonstrate, and publish. Find me a traditional primer that recommends just playing tunes and not scales first.

Once again Kennedy, i have conceded a few times that it may well be possible to learn to Play Irish music without scales. whether that playing is of any quality, who can say. All I know is that the evidence is hard to find. and prove? As I said, demonstrate , someone gone on the record to say this? a book? a DVD? anything at all apart from will and Llig? Come on , it must be out there… someone we have heard of must have said they never practised scales? surely. I am asking a reasonable question. this is a debate, I have plenty of evidence on ‘my side’. where is the ‘ anti scale’ evidence? I said to will that, with all due respect. I could hardly take his uncorroborated word on it, someone on the internet. That to be convincing he would need evidence.
Seriously it cant be too hard to find something. I mean ….

“you do not attempt double stops in 5th position, I do”

Wait a minute…

I know you were just talking about your own practice there, but do you teach IRISH FIDDLE students to play double stops in 5th position? Or do you teach violin too? Come to think of it, are you primarily a violinist or a fiddler?

fair enough jig

Getting back to the theme (if not the original post). Before putting the books away I went back and found this.

“Experienced players do their best to play what sounds sweet to their ear in any given situation… … It may be more useful to think of playing in-tune intervals rather than in-tune notes, for it is the relationship between notes that we are really tuning ” Gray Larson, The Essential Guide to Irish Flute and Tin Whistle, page 106.

I interpret that as meaning that the notes may not always have exactly the same pitch even in one tune. Sure, if playing sweetly against a drone then that would pull the notes into one scale.

But one reads of pipers deliberatley blowing a note sharper than the drone to make it stand out . And somewhere on this site there is discussion about intonation in which someone talks about the expression of emotion in irish music makes a comment along the lines of “you would not expect the wails of a mother over a dead child to have perfect intonation” (apologies if its someone here now and I am mis-quoting, I can’t find it through the search)

I think those points tend to suggest - play the tunes and make em sound good.

Er, did I start of defending scales somewhere up there ?

Second paragraph, second sentence.
http://www.itma.ie/Publications/LearningLeaflet.html

Jeez, I just read this thread from top to bottom (minus any posts that may or may not have disappeared into the ether…) Talk about a waste of an hour!

And Muse, this is exactly why I don’t spend much time around these parts anymore…

(Will, pay me $5, or I’ll start posting links to your playing 😉)

“i have conceded a few times that it may well be possible to learn to Play Irish music without scales. whether that playing is of any quality, who can say.”

First of all, that statement alone implies that you think anyone who tries to learn to play Irish music without scales will not be able to play it very well---which is kind of insulting to those who have, in fact, learned that way.

Then, you want proof. Will says that he has taught students to play well without scales. Other people on this thread have told you that they have learned to play without them. I, myself, have told you that although I play them, I also learned tunes right from the beginning---and I play well enough for someone with only 18 months experience, or so I’ve been told. Others here have given you links to other teachers and their methods.

Are you ever going to realize that your method is not the ONLY method available that will produce desirable results?

Pete I have been here over an hour & my playing has degraded ever since
That includes scales, arpeggios, & tunes.
But I will pay you $1o to post the link. ;)

screetch, i am a fiddler with high aspirations, which , give another20 yrs i may achieve.😎

rev, only steves post has been deleated i think.

kennedy, it depends on what you desire. it is quite clear that scales are the only way i will achieve what i desire, for whatever reason, perhaps I am not as naturally gifted as will or Llig, but so what? the method must work for the student.

Remember the consensus of opinion in the larger world of music is that scales are a fundamental technique. The onus is not on me to show they work, but on the people who say they are not.

Ah, maybe we have hit on the heart of the problem---nobody is trying to say that scales do not work as a teaching technique. What people have been saying, however, is that there are other techniques that can achieve the same results. How does that sound to you?

Kennedy it seems clear people are saying you “do not” need scales in order to learn to play Irish tunes.

Muse, saying you need them is different than saying whether they work or not. They do work. So does playing tunes. It’s up to the player to choose which way (or both) they want to learn.

I agree with you Kennedy. It is a choice.
I just am not sure, & I have lost track, not sure the others you mention agree. Flash back to “Green Eggs & Ham”
I also think it will not address Mr. Jig’s premise.

This may get me banished;
Does anyone disagree, “Scales work as a teaching technique?”

well thats a matter of opinion, as such it is debatable.

Some one mentioned the Suzuki method but the main difference there is that they do not use written music. They nonetheless start with open string rhythmic bowing exercises. then starting with 2 note sections of the scale, then 4, concentrating on good fundamental bowing techniques. they stress the listening process above all. Only after scales and triads, do they progress on to the tune, which they will have been exposed to before hand. they teach the intervals through song firstly.
But , silly me, perhaps thats all unnecessary? they should scrap all that eh and just play some tunes?

Yes I know twinkle is a piece of Classical music… we are trad players, So Matt Crannitch has scale exercises first in his book, or is he not ‘trad’ enough?

As part of an ongoing writing project I’ve just spent the last few hours discussing music over the ’phone with, in turn, six of Ireland’s most well-known traditional musicians - two pipers, three fiddlers and a concertina player, aged between 25 and 60.

Part of the discussion with each involved their own early learning experiences. All six stated that they had predominantly learnt their instruments by attempting to imitate tunes provided by their teachers. The word ‘scales’ did not enter the discussion until I raised it.

None had been encouraged either to learn or practise scales and four were vehemently opposed to the whole notion of doing so. “That’s un-Irish” was one comment. “I can’t see the any benefit at all” was another. A third stated categorically that such a learning strategy was completely inappropriate and would have been “of no assistance to my musical development”.

Two of the pipers had been taught scales, but not in the sense of classical music lessons or what I believe jig is suggesting. In both cases, the root of this was more to do with fingering exercises and, particularly, being able to obtain the bottom note on the chanter (no mean feat for, say, a 9-year old). In other words, the only scale they’d learnt ran from low to top D. One went further and stated “I didn’t regard that as learning a scale at all, it was purely a fingering exercise”, adding “if I picked up a C whistle, I wouldn’t be interested in working out how I could play in a scale in A major on it. What’s that got to do with the music?”

You wanted some evidence, Jig, so there you go.

Oh, and jig, his name’s actually Cranitch!

Jig chill out! Whether you are right are wrong you are doing a good job of shooting yourself in the foot.

Mac that is very interesting.
But would you think it reasonable to discuss fiddle exercises in a different context than piping exercises?

Instead of ‘Two of the pipers’, I should have written ‘Both pipers’ above.

Actually, Muse, the three fiddlers were the most antagonistic to the notion of learning scales and none saw any value in the practice.

Well fair play to you mac an excellent contribution, though you do seem to have inferred rather more in my position .than I have said. What you choose to believe is not my business.
Still lets see. Ah 100% of your sample of pipers played scales. Of course you wouldnt want to play an A scale on a C whistle, that hardly needs saying does it!! LOL

That scales might be some how un Irish, well we know that is not the case. Both pipers played scales and you dont get more Irish than that eh? scale, fingering exercise, whats the difference?
Still, even though they remain nameless its still an excellent contribution.
So we can accurately say that some people need scales for Irish music and some dont. depending on the instrument and person.

Got any names mac? , just so we can hear for our selves that is. I dont doubt they exist. I may well be listening to one right now.

Thanks Mac much better.
A little aside to the anonymous poster; my offer was for the Reverend. But if I make it to Vermont I will be sure & buy a round.

LOL
Just to keep from crying.

You can kill someone by stabbing them.

You can, shock horror, also kill someone by poison, or shooting.

You can do lots of things in different ways.

The above may surprise many on here, the fact that it may be possible to do something in different ways but you can.

Scales and knowing notes would be a great help for playing tunes for many people, and certainly for playing songs.

I cannot comment on arpeggios as I have no idea what they are.

They also are different things for different people.
They are whatever you want them to be.
Like Dorothy in Kansas.

jig, I mentioned “twinkle” and Dr. Suzukli, and as you corrected me, it is a folk song stolen by Mozart (paraphrasing you), and not written in the “classical” sense


but still, you totally are misunderstanding the Suzuki method….no, you do not learn scales and triads first…you learn a tune…TWINKLE…then go to a little German folk song, etc…you are introduced to “tonalization” later, and then seeing how it is a “classical” method later introduced to sight reading and scales…

but first and foremost you start playing a tune and learn it by ear…

that was my point, which you simply chose to twist around…

and mac said that the pipers played “fingering excersise” not scales…

not really too much difference I suppose, but mac insisted they were not scales and it sounds like he was the one who talked to the trad musicians so I don;’t think you should twist that either to be something that it’s not

and with Suzuki and every other form of learning,any type of music/tune using a scale or not, it’s ALL different intervals

As someone who always played by ear, I appreciate the idea. However, if I played “Limerick’s Lament” starting on the fifth fret on the D strings, and someone else came along starting on the 5th fret on the G strings, well, that was me lost. I didn’t know you could play a tune starting in different places. That’s what totally playing by ear does to you. Our fiddle player was amazed when he discovered that it was possible to play the same tune in two different places. (didn’t like to tell him you could do it more than twice)

So people like me, on discovering scales think “Playing instruments is easy, you just follow patterns”. Takes all the mystique and hard work out of it. Obviously this is a simplification on our part, but knowing a few scales opens up a whole new world. I imagine nowadays that I could easily learn the whistle if I spent one hour to work out the scales, which to me means finding the note “Doe” in C and then simply playing “doe, Ray, me……………” I still don’t know the name of the notes, JfiddlerH will show me the appropriate “doe”.

So if one has the ability to do both, play by ear and also knows the scales and notes and arpeggys, well it must help, and would give a rounded approach, and help you to PERFORM better.

My first mandolin was a pear shaped Suzuki, bought in 1971. I don’t think they make them any more.

Bliss don’t know what arpeggios are, eh.

P stands for Paddy I suppose
J for my love John
And the A it stands for our Peggy-O
Johnny is the fairest man

Don’t Suzuki make motorbikes??

It was the same company.

they made bodhrans too

“And W stands for false Willy oh”

used them as the front wheel of the motorbike

and the rear wheel too

Ha, you are right, of course. But your next step is to realise that it doean’t matter that you are right.

Tell me something I didn’t know.

And, it doesn’t matter when you are wrong.

Well sunny, on what authority do you have your information? I simply rely on the work of Proffessors Steinschaden and Zhetmair. If you would like to quote your sources we can compare.
Sunny, scales are fingering exercises.! LOL

Going back to mac’s little survey, So we find three un-named fiddlers telling us they object to scales. Fair enough, but from what position do they start out? Surrounded by Irish Music from childhood, quite possibly taught by their parents daily, With this kind of background , then ok, perhaps scales are not essential. It is simply not possible to extrapolate from this that therefore no one needs them For those of us without these advantages,
We are obliged to use all methods we can to attain our aim.


Modelling is a big part of the learning process, we copy the actions and emulate the behaviour of our ‘model individual/s’
We aspire to achieving a level we see demonstrated., I aspire to play like, say, Frankie Gavin, If Frankie never played scales then I could feel assured that with a lot of hard work, a great deal of talent and 30 years of dedication I might possibly achieve my aspirations without playing my scales. So I ask someone to demonstrate what they have achieved, or others have achieved, without scale practice. That is why I ask for names.



No one has ever said it is not possible to play Irish music without scales and arpeggio. But to what standard? I hasten to add I am not insinuating that say Will or Lligs standard is not as high as Frankie Gavins, just that I do not know. while I can hear Frankie any day, and often do. Liz Carrol is another player I admire greatly, Wonder if she played her scales? John Carty, ? Liz Doherty?
We know that the great Classical players did, they set a pretty high standard, A friend of mine plays and teaches internationally on the highest levels in his genre, Of course I want his respect as a musician! For sure I will never approach his level, for sure I will never play the music he plays, but at least I want to be able to play my music with good technique, form, intonation and spirit.

So untill someone can actually demonstrate the efficacy of their method I will continue to rely on the lessons I have received. We all make our choices in life, Its only fair that we are given every opportunity to examine the evidence so that we can make Informed decisions.

What kind of bodhran wood would make the best motorbike wheels? I feel that this is much more fertile ground for discussion from now on. The studs would really grip well in ice and snow. My ears are verily up and pricked. Hey, Bliss, thanks for putting me right on the song words. There is a big scratch on my vinyl that made me hear it all wrong all those years.

“And Muse, this is exactly why I don’t spend much time around these parts anymore…”

Me too, Reverend.


To the topic of the thread, and trying to put it simply, though others have tried and it still doesn’t shut him up:

I like to play different types of music - including classical, pop, rock, jazz, show bands, ITM and other trad, all on fiddle. I am, and always have been, most interested in the trad side of things, especially ITM, which I have been playing now for about 40 years.

For the classical stuff, practising scales and arpeggios is essential, and I really wish I had done more when I was a kid and it would have made most difference. Similarly, jazz arpeggios are decidely helpful for playing jazz, though they’re different from classical ones.

For trad, however, scales and arpeggios are a pointless waste of time, and possibly detrimental. This is for 2 reasons:

(i) all the techniques are there in the tunes, so you’ll just waste time if you play scales instead;
(ii) there is no conceivable way to practise scales and arpeggios, per se, in a trad style, so what you’ll be practising will be something other than trad, and in doing this, you’ll delay getting any good at trad.

If I’m teaching trad, I do everything through tunes and certain other exercises, such as practising rolls etc. Scales and arpeggios don’t enter into it. This is how I was taught, and how others that I know of have been taught by good trad teachers. I haven’t come across this “school” of teaching ITM through scales and arpeggios.

Just had a thought: how many people have been to schools such as the Willy Clancy Summer School and been taught scales and arpeggios?

Oh God…

Anyone who plays Irish tunes has played plenty of arpeggios- even if they are ignorant of the fact.
You have to be able to play arpeggios cleanly to play the tunes cleanly.
Now, I teacher could avoid using the evil Italian word and simply give the beginner tunes which happen to have all the necessary arpeggios built into them- I’ve certainly done that over the years many times.
I could have someone learn The Atholl Highlanders so that they master the arpeggios in the part that goes
AC#E AC#E BDF# BDF#
and avoid using the term “arpeggio”, calling them “those skip-every-other-note thingys that happen so often in tunes”.
But why rejoice in ignorance? These “thingys” have a name, why not use it? Is it mere ethnocentrism? I’ll bet if they had an Irish, rather than Italian, name no one would hesitate to use it.
But if a beginner learns how to play arpeggios cleanly, and learns to quickly identify them when they hear them, they will be able to learn tunes faster and better.

If a beginner learns to play tunes by the phrase cleanly, he will learn to understand his/her tunes better and quicklier. How about that one for ethnocentrism Richard?

Arpeggio could be an Irish word anyway. Write it backwards and insert suitable apostrophe.

I think we have a consensus now here. I’m not contributing to this thread any more unless it’s about recycling bodhrans in the manner suggested. Oh, I don’t know though.

Steve, what does ‘consensus’ mean. It’s a new one on me …

Jig,

Thanks for your demeaning reply.

My message was not based upon ‘a little survey’, but upon conversations with six very different musicians. I’ve spoken to more today. None ever practised scales. Two asked me what an arpeggio was. Another thought he might have once eaten one!

I have no intention of revealing any of the names of my sources since my reason for contacting them had nothing to do with this thread.

There is a wealth of difference between a fingering exercise on the pipes and learning a scale on said instrument and your ignorance of this fact really does demonstrate how little you know about Irish music and, more particularly, about how pipers learn their craft. Neither of the pipers I cited had ever used the ‘scale knowledge’. For them it was simply a matter of getting to grips with the potential of their instrument.

But then, you see, I reckon that you really don’t know much about this music at all. The boot should be on the other foot.

So, Jig, name some influential Irish musicians who spent there formative years practising scales and arpeggios!

I, for one, will be very interested in your response.

Or even ‘spent their formative years …’ - damned homonyms!

Mac we are all waiting on the edge of our seats for jig’s response . . . Y A W N
Could you please read Richard’s last post.

Richard if these things had Irish names the thread would be twice as long.
“quicklier”"? I think you meant betterlier kilfaroy. ;)

Muse,

I did read Richard’s post. It’s a pity you didn’t read my own response to jig’s more closely.

Why don’t you post some biographical details in your personal information so we at least know ‘where you’re coming from’?

You want a list of Irish trad players who started by learning scales and such? How long have you got?

Now, think about this. I doubt many started their trad career by learning scales all the time, they already knew them, learnt at an early age playing a different type of music. There are thiousands of examples, Derek Bell being the easiest to advance.

You see, here lies the rub. It is easy and trendy to “sneer” at scales and such, and deny all knowledge of them. But the people that do this are quick to sneer at the likes of me who doesn’t honestly know a note on say a harmonica after 42 years playing one. They are also quick to suspect a wind up when someone asks a question on this board, such as how you get a mandolin in tune with a backing guitar.

And the amount of baffling knowledge shown here, about scales, notes, arpeggys and all the rest, somewhat gives the lie towards this “Oh I just lifted the fiddle and learnt it by ear” bravado displayed by many.

John Shehan of the Dubliners used to be proud of the fact that among the Dubliners he was the only one who had received structured musical training. That lasted until one night an old man asked him “Tell me this, are you a trained musician, or just gifted?”.

Now that list you wanted about musicians who practiced scales;

Burke, Maloney, Keenan, Molloy, JfiddlerH, probably Llig, Tubridy, Hannon, Hastings, Gavin………………

Thanks for the interest;
I love playing Irish trad tunes!
I also enjoy learning something new each day.
Lately I am surprised that bodhran bliss is geting so good at his comments. Keep it up!
I hope everyone shares my love of playing & recognizes there are good discussions on this forum.
The back & forth tit for tat is on a par with reality TV.
But as long as you enjoy it don’t allow your fun to be ruined by the likes of me.
Cheers!

Bliss, old chap. How many of those chaps practised scales specifically with ITM in mind? A lot of kids start their musical lives with scales and Our Peggy-Ohs (she had a great time with her false Willie, BTW) because they were sent to dry, dusty old passion-killing grade teachers. The survivors of that saw the light and progressed to scale-free ITM (just play Lord Inchiquin, yeah?). They still have fiddles locked away that they hate vehemently and wish they could sell, but mummy and pater wouldn’t approve of that. Scales and arpie-wotsits do not equal fun, not by a long chalk.

My daughter did lots of scales and arpeggios for her piano grade 4 a while back for which she received a Merit on the grade. She honestly reckons she’d have gotten a Distinction if she’d been allowed to play more MUSIC instead. All these scales and arpeggios - who really needs them? I like the sentiments expressed in this old discussion, by contrast:
https://thesession.org/discussions/623

That’s what I said Steve, I doubt they started ITM on scales, but they already were versed in them.

And Muse, thank you, but I have always made good comments in between the outrageous (Llig and I have a lot in common), it’s just that many, obviously you among them, see the BB and assume, with some justification, that it will be nonsense🙂

And I love daft debates, just like this one.

And Steve, did I tell you Inchiquin was the first Irish thing I played on the harmonica? I hope so, I hate mind readers.

Scales and arpeggios are mental and physical strengthening exercises. ITM calls for little to no harmonizing so all one really needs to be able to do is navigate the tune. Scales and arpeggios are essential for shred guitar players because that’s all they play. An ITM player may or may not benefit from scales and arpeggios because of his or her own personal wiring. It’s a crap shoot IMHO. Personally, I recommend to other non-ITM guitar players to play ITM tunes instead of running scales and arpeggios because the tunes are GREAT finger exercises--and, because they are tunes, one learns a tune instead of a scale. Win win.

Be that as it may… who cares. Do what works for you and stop p*ssing on what works for someone else.

Well put, good points, I agree entirely.

Except that what I take umbridge with is a certain fellow here forcing his young students to follow his one way to the exclusion of the other.

“Except that what I take umbridge with is a certain fellow here forcing his young students to follow his one way to the exclusion of the other.”

A good teacher is a rare thing, especially in the creative arts. Many are egomaniacs who can’t see beyond their own weaknesses and some are charlatans looking to garner some bank any way they can because they never got and never will be “famous.” Pity. Silly actually.

Those who can, do. Those who can’t, teach. 😀

Just don’t play me that bloody Archers theme tune. I may just take Ambridge.

Yes, it’s a pity and it’s silly. But if you are a parent and entrusting your child’s education to such a person it becomes a bit more than mere silly.

I’m a parent so I understand.

My brat is self taught. No idea if he practiced scales or whatever. That’s the Rousseau in me.

Having said that, I suppose I must be against teachers per se.

“My brat is self taught. ”

Oh how I wish I could say that!

--Mr Selftaught

Sure what could I have taught him?

humility?

To summarise this discussion, if you play the violin you’ll need to work on scales and arpeggios at some stage; if you play the fiddle you won’t.

I nominate “dreimreach” to replace the evil Italian word that shall not be spoken amongst Irishmen.

Would “dreimreach” mean something like “running up a ladder”? Very appropriate!

I like that Mr Llig. The son plays many instruments, but last week he told me that I was probably the second best bodhran player in the world.

No prize for guessing who he considers to be the best. I doubt if he has held a drum in the last three years.

I like that suggestion a lot Mr Llig, alas it appears to be too late.

To summarise this discussion, for some people playing scales are an essential step for playing Irish music for some people. for some instruments. As yet there has been no evidence to the contrary, simply personal opinion. Which , for those people, can not be denied. For any one to suggest that no one needs scales or arpeggio’s flies in the face of truth and reason.

It’s nothing to do with the word, or with ‘ethnocentricity’ or whatever. Sure, certain scale-like or arpeggio-like patterns occur in Irish tunes - could hardly be otherwise. It’s just you don’t need to practise scales and arpeggios *per se*. There’s simply no point.

Who’s this “percy” you lot keep on about? Any relation to False Willie?

Ben, if you are talking about Cb in tenths, 3 octaves, of course I agree, but for me, learning any instrument it helps considerably to work out the basic patterns, for the violin family it also allows me to concentrate on tone production, bowing, and intonation.
I clearly stated I suggest DG, then A and C major scales in first position. This seems to me basic common sense. Excuse me if you see it differently, but I rely on my instructors and 30yrs of learning to play a number of instruments including violin, viola , tenor violin[piccalo cello] bass, guitar, banjo, whistle, pipes and drums. With the drums, I didnt start playing tunes! but bass drum, then snare, then high-hat, then high hat and bass drum, high hat and snare, etc etc. notw i can comfortably play the kit. A systematic and effective approach that relates to acquiring any physical skill. ;

Master small easy steps then progress.

Ever considered becoming a one-man band?

To summarise this discussion:

For some people playing scales is an essential step for playing Irish music.

Others realise that all the benefit you can gain from playing scales can be gained from merely playing Irish tunes. Therefore, for any one to suggest that no one needs scales or arpeggio’s would be like saying you don’t need tunes. It doesn’t make sense.

However, for any one to force some one to first play scales before they are allowed to play tunes is really forcing them to play crap tunes before thay are allowed a sniff at a good tune

I agree Llig,. but you were recommending twinkle twinkle earlier🙂 I dont hear that at our local session.😎

I concur with the Suzuki method. We dont use written music . We start with rhythmic bowing patterns, small sections or the G major scale. building up to the full one octave major scale. then D, etc Triads and arpeggios help in recognising them when we move on to tunes. We practice common triplets. and patterns so that they are recognisable later.
Someone once said that for teaching a beginner we should remember how tricky it all was for us when we started. they suggest attempting to swap the fiddle round, play with the bow in the ‘other’ hand. This is what it is like for the student. try playing twinkle like that and see how far you get.


However this discussion was not about teaching methods, but practice methods. Its a shame it got diverted. We had a request for advice on how to practice scales and arp’s. some folk then steamed in saying they were not necessary. The individual in question clearly said that their teacher recommended they practice them. We do not know the student, their teacher does. we do not know if that individual needs them or not. That was not the question. I recomend them to everyone as it happens. I do not ‘force ’ my students to practice scales etc. they are however part of our lessons.

I simply dont think anyone is ready to play complex tunes before playing simple ones. we start with [ really simple tunes?] scales,perhaps doe a dear, nursery rhythmes maybe before moving on to simple tunes. such as the High reel. We dont start with ‘Dr Gilbert’ before G major can be played well.

I don’t recognise simple tunes and complex tunes. Just tunes.

To summarise this discussion:

Most people want to have fun with ITM so they play the tunes. All tunes have bits of scales and peggy-wotsits so we all get plenty of scale and peggy practice by having fun playing tunes. A very few people would rather defer the fun bit, and delay the picking-up of those tunes so necessary for the fun bit, by wasting time pretending to be dusty old grade teachers and teaching scales and peggies. These chaps have apparently learned their trade over at least 30 years by harking at every great master of ITM you can possibly think of, all of whom, naturally, we’re told anyway, were advocates of scales and peggies. No wonder ITM was on its knees and it took a bunch of fun-loving exiles in the US to keep the candle burning!

I have a new theory. The exiles didn’t leave Ireland because of famine/no work/repression. They left because the only teachers they could find were scale and peggy force-feeders.

(There. That’s restored a bit of balance then).

And I just wish to state that I don’t believe a bloody word of anything historical I’ve just said. I was merely speaking metaphoriphysicallaciously.

I do hope you will forgive me for saying this publically ~
You are not such a bad chap are you llig leahcim?

See how many players can dance on the head of a pin. Can you imagine the bloodshed if we were all in the same kingdom divided by our passion for dogma within Irish music?

Some observations: on the fiddle it helps a beginner to have a structure of where the notes are. This takes the mystery out of where to place their fingers. It encourages them when they see how few places they have to place their fingers. They can practice those notes and their bowing and get to play these notes well without the very much more complex attempt at a tune.

It also lets a beginner realise that they should only use certain fingers for certain positions, ie: first finger for position at the nut and (the more usual) position that makes a tone. It may seem very obvious to some, but I have come across a mandolin player who didn’t use the “correct” fingering and it looked very strange and inefficient indeed, and no doubt in the wide world there are fiddle players who never learned the most efficient way to finger the notes either.

And this is not to say that they ever play scales again once they are past the first few confusing weeks. It would seem to me good practice as a teacher to give each student a rudimentary framework that is the basis of all subsequent tunes.

It is not controversial to say that a fair number of the good players and top players in Ireland have also had classical lessons or at the very least had some formal training. The fashionable who like to pose as subtle geniuses in a state of nature can ruminate on that.

gw that is an excellent comment;
https://thesession.org/discussions/16301#comment339305
Session tunes do not require a facility with harmonization.
If I may add that while harmonization is not characteristic of session tunes . . . I have noticed in going from one session to the another (different players) that not everyone plays (knows) the same tune in the same key. Just off the top of my head I can only recall ‘Calliope House’ or Mason’s Apron . . . sometimes exercises are helpful if you need to transpose keys. But perhaps that too is rare is sessioning. And of course you do not ‘need’ to be able to transpose.

Hmmm … The ole vine? New menber. His first ever posting. And yet he know;s us all so well.

Yeah right.

Michael if you would just take the time to read the old vine’s post
you would recognize he/she is some one new to the music.
We really should help the new players.
Please ole vine hang in there. ;)

Hang on, that is not me right. just so you know. If I want to say something I will say it straight out. just so you know. right.

Who is Dow?

Very confused by The ole vine’s post. It seems like s/he’s attacking someone, but I can’t work out who … certainly doesn’t read like someone new to the music to me …

Anyway, I also found it strange that, whilst I’d agreed with just about everything Michael had said in this discussion up to the last few posts, I couldn’t agree with this:

“for any one to suggest that no one needs scales or arpeggio’s would be like saying you don’t need tunes. It doesn’t make sense.”

Unless I’ve misinterpreted it, which is quite possible. Steve, the reason I referred to practising scales and arpeggios “per se” a couple of times was because it’s *that* that I don’t think is necessary for learning to play Irish tunes, although of course it *is* necessary for learning to play classical music. And this is where I may have misinterpreted Michael: of course it *is* necessary to be able to play scale- and arpeggio-like passages in Irish music. But you still don’t have to practice scales and arpeggios to play the tunes - it’s better to play the tunes.

There’s no snobbery in that position, and I don’t think it amounts to “monstering someone else’s point of view”.

As I say, confused …

benhall.1 the assumption is that ole vine is not what he/she claims to be . . . i.e. a new member. If true that would violate the rules in TheSession F.A.Q.
BTW I took your quote from Michael’s post to be exactly what he intended.

A comment might help clear things up.

Ben, did you not say you plasyed your scales and stuff befor you played trad?> It doesnt matter when you play them, or why. they work. Would you be a better trad player if you had never played them?

Try playing left handed, [unless you are left handed of course] play a few tunes., can you at all? I couldnt! now tell me you are not going to play the simplest basic scales first.

Are you now talking about for yourself or everyone? for the fiddle or every instrument? Surely you realise that you cant generalise in that way with any meaning? If you practised your scales before how can you suggest that others don’t,?

How can you say to this student he shouldnt practice his scales when his teacher, who knows him, says he should? be reasonable, that position is clearly untenable. I could say that to play any music it is not necessary to play scales, just play the classics by ear, A pair of simple little tunes like the 1st and 2nd bourree in the 3rd suite for unaccompanied cello say, all in first position, The point is that playing your scales [ with a clear reference for your ear] can make it easier to play and understand the music.

Jig is a flesh & blood instructor in any way better than
instruction by way of TheSession discussion tab?
Simple question.
1. Yes
2. No
3. If you do not understand

That depends on the instructor of course?! I recomend taking any and every bit of help and advice but only from reputable sources with a proven record. I say that because, and i mean no disrespect to anyone here, there are too many cowboys out there teaching unworkable nonsense.

So a flesh and blood teacher could be considerably worse. But, and this is a big but, the teacher knows the student so one would hope that they are doing the best for the student. It is a very tricky question which is not so easy to answer.

I have spent years studying various subjects with possibly hundreds of teachers, literally, some good ,some bad, some absolutely world class, internationally and universally recognised as absolute masters. so you see I have quite a lot of experiance in this matter. I am not a chancer, I know my stuff and I recognise my own limitations.
I will never reach the level of my teachers, but thats ok, What matters is that what i learnt works for me and what I teach works for my students.

So what I allways say is dont take my word on it, read up, ask around see what others say, I am a great believer in reading, we have such an amazing resource available to us just by spending a little money and buying a DVD, or what ever, we can have the best fiddlers, or whatever in our homes teaching us, what a blessing.
But there is no substitute for a teacher/ master telling us what we need face to face as a result of their analysis of our faults and weaknesses, which we all have .
Its finding that teacher that aint so easy!

Id just like to say a word about will cpt in case anyone thinks i am making a subtle reference to him in some kind of power struggle. I am not. I dont do subtle😎, in case you had’nt noticed.😎 I think will is probably a brilliant musician and teacher and that for his students he can direct them face to face, and does the right thing for them. . I say this not because I know it, but because I trust that his heart is in the right place.
In reference to the original question, A number of people jumped in to tell us that scales are not necessary. I corrected them that this is clearly not a tenable position and that without knowing the student how could we say? Without a man like CPT to guide us day to day we have to use whatever tools we can. I needed my scale practice, I still do actually, not a great deal granted but for anyone to suggest I or anyone else can do without that practice, without knowing them, is untenable.

I stood here to defend my ground because that’s what I was doing, not attacking others methods but defending ours.

Let’s narrow the field.
Are you a better fiddle instructor on line or in person?
1. Yes
2. No
3. I do not understand 1 & 2

All right then:
I maintain there is now difference between a scale/arpeggio and a tune.

What would you say is the intrinsic difference between a scale and a tune?

Michael have you just lost it ?

Sorry, “no” difference between a scale/arpeggio and a tune

I am not a fiddle instructor on line, so the question does not make sense. All I do is offer what little I have gained from my own instruction, I am but a fellow seeker after a beautiful tone, good intonation , blazing rhythm and kick ass tunes.

The difference between a scale and which tune micheal? If you are talking about jigs, reels hornpipes and polkas, I would say an awful lot of difference . If you were talking a bout a slow air, or twinkle, or doe a deer, i would say not so much difference.

For a start, tunes are a lot harder to play left handed. tried it yet? And to play them well!! about 20 yrs.

Think about Do, a Deer. It’s a tune about scales but it is not a tune full of scales any more than any other tune. Go on, have a hum. Lord Inchiquin has got just as many scale runs. At last, he’s proved that he hasn’t got a clue what he’s on about. Give it ar est now, jig. You’ve dug deep enough, old chap! 😀

Doh. Doh!

Jig the question is, ’do you believe your explanations here
(online) may be better for a beginning fiddler’s than from you in person?’
1. Yes
2. No
3. It depends

All a student needs to do is copy the movements . no words are required. Thats it. Though I may well need to point out ways of attaining this .
Muse, its hardly complicated subject is it? It like Im talking to a brick wall. I don’t know why I bother discussing this issue at all, if its not blatantly obvious you are being extremely obtuse. Good night.
And steve, try playing a simple scale on the fiddle before telling us all how easy it is. Duh yerself.

Most of us don’t know why you’re bothering to “discuss” it either. And before you nod off perhaps you could tell me where I’ve ever told everyone how easy it is to play a scale on a fiddle. I don’t know one end of a fiddle from another as it happens. Still, if we can’t believe you on that point we can’t believe you on much else, really. Like all those ITM masters you’ve studied with for example. Perhaps you regard listening to their CDs as “studying with them,” huh?

Jig it is was intended as a challenging question.
The response is up to you. So far you have avoided answering.;)

No, it was actually intended as a ‘basic’ question.
It is only challenging if you make it so.

Michael that is funny when you wrote ‘now’ I read it as ‘no’
Cheers!

Hi Michael. The best explanation I have read on this long & winding road is gw.
Practicing all the scales, in all the key signatures, is a great exercise. For Irish tunes one could argue you are better off with just a few exercises [Or simply play the tunes]. You could even practice penatonic scales if the tunes you are learning are penatonic. If they are this might be more helpful then full scales.
However you want to learn depends on which instrument you play & {to put it simply} ~ which notes (pitches)
That might be confusing but such is life on the long-winded threads.
Cheers!

gw posted; https://thesession.org/discussions/16301#comment339305
He has a good understanding of the usefulness of scales
as well as their limited usefulness in learning tunes.

Yeah yeah, whatever.

In music, an arpeggio is a broken chord where the notes are played or sung in succession rather than simultaneously.

Wow, I do that all the time on the guitar, mainly because I am useless on the guitar and just thumb pick notes to suit my melodic singing.

So, I am a great believer in arpeggios now that I know what they are. Practice them? I don’t need to practice.

I’m a great believer in arpeggios too. Where would we be without them! I’m a great believer in the Oxford Concise Dictionary too. And Beethoven. And Jesus (even though I’m an atheist, praise to heaven). And Bach. And scales. Phew! I feel like starting a row about fine-tuning now.

Do you have tricky bits?

Que?

399 bottles of beer on the wall…

do re mi fa so la ti…

do mi so so mi do…

399 bottles of beer…

You did scales for 399 so I’ll do arpeggios for 400.

Er…Miss Thornton’s, anyone? Soldier’s Joy? First Slip/Drops of Brandy? Ashokan Farewell? Up and down we go ! Pu-pu-pu-pu-pu-pu-PUM!

This is getting silly. And do not mock Do ray me, I rely on it.

It feels kind of dark and lonely now out here on Page 8, doesn’t it. I really shouldn’t have watched Aliens on my own tonight. I feel thread death coming on. I hope to God that there isn’t somebody out there who knows different. Do not go gently into that good night? crap!

X:1
T:Lunatics Unite!
C:gw
N:scales and arpeggi for session players
Q:1/4=120
V:1
M:6/8
L:1/8
K:D
DEF GAB |cde fga |bdf Gbd |eGb CeG :|
EgB bdf |ACE dfa |agf edc |BAG FED :|

Arpeggios? Apeggiae? Arpeggi? Arpeggii? Arpeggio and another arpeggio?

Some suggested new terms:

ARPEGGIACIOUSLY: of chords as played by 12-string strummers

ARPEGGIOSE: of a tune with a lot of arpeggios in it, e.g. “Hey, this slip jig is a pretty arpeggiose tune, don’t you think?”

ARPIGGIO: grunting in four different pitches in quick succession

ARPEGGI-ITIS: inability to play all the notes of a chord at once, usually brought on by excessive playing of exercises which rely on playing only one note at a time, e.g. scale and arpeggio practice

‘playing only one note at a time, e.g. scale and arpeggio practice’




yes,Steve-good try but…


i hate to say this but you can play scales/arpeggios on more than one note.sadly.

scales in 3rd/6ths/ octaves and tenths being the ones that spring to this tortured mind.

arpeggios usually in octaves.

it’s a dirty job but some people do it.

so i believe.


my favourite of your terms would be the grunting one.
i can do that.

Maybe there’s an expert around on this subject who could put us right…😉

“Learning by ear depends a lot on knowing where the notes you’re hearing are found on your instrument. Someone totally new to an instrument probably needs a basic introduction to scales and half- and whole-step intervals before they can begin to learn tunes by ear. Even intermediate players will struggle mightily if they try to learn a tune by ear in a key they’ve never played in before.”
Will Harmon

round and round and round and round and round and ….

Learning by ear depends entirely on finding where the notes you’re hearing are on your instrument.

let go of the frisbee…