Non-ITM uses of DADGAD

Non-ITM uses of DADGAD

I’ve heard that Jimmy Page often used DADGAD tuning; Can you think of any other interesting examples?
All genres are open

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The master and inventor of the tuning,Davy Graham and of course Stefan GrossmanJohn Renbourn, BertJansch,Tony Hogan,Micheal Hedges,William Ackerman who can all play in DADGAD without sounding like they’re playing in that tuning,and they all have their own style which is more than you can say for all the identikit dadgad guitarists I run into at sessions,with a few exceptions.I used to play in DADGAD myself at sessions but gave it up when it became such a cliche.I would say that Jimmy Page abuses DADGAD,I’ve never rated him,couldn’t stand Led Zeppelin what a load of chesty;bombastic crap.Plus they stole all their "best" songs from other artists. How can playing the guitar be a ball game? Awaiting a reply with breathless anticipation.

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The Bothies stole all their best stuff from other artists.
Of course Michael O’Domhnaill was cliché-ing away on DADGAD, so, you know.

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Not a fair comparison.Rock and ITM are two different things.Traditional tunes are not under copyright.The songs that Plant and Page stole were.Witness the out of court settlements they’ve made over the years.I forgot to mention Michael O’Domhnaill,he was one of the guys who played in his own style in dadgad,sadly missed.It has become a cliche you know,I find it very hard to distinguish one dadgad ITM player from another nowadays.There are some who stand out.Philip Masure for one.Tony McManus is very good in the tuning.Most of the profs I can listen to.It’s the sessioneers who all sound the same to me.Son House once said that the secret of bottleneck guitar was to keep the left hand moving and the same applies to dadgad.It requires a constant level of inventivness to keep the style from becoming boring,plus the ability to play in different keys without using the capo,or "cheater" as is used to be called in the USA.All the guys I see at sessions have those sliding capos and just shove it up and down the neck using the same chord shapes for every tune.

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I know we are supposed to be talking about other genres, but Daithi Sproule seems to avoid being a DADGAD bore, or a cliche, don’t you think? Just checking.

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He introduced the tuning to Ireland after hearing the Pentangle,and I really like his playing.I could give you chapter and verse about the tuning if you like,but not on the drip like this.I was playing in dadgad when Paul Brady was still playing pop music with The Johnstones.I figured it it out from a copy of The Thamesiders’ 1963 ep which I found in a second hand shop in 1966.Davy introduced the tuning to the world on his version of "She Moved Through The Fair" Marin Carthy was in the band too.Davy realised that the mode was the same as the Indian raga scale, khammaj.He needed a tuning which suited the mode.My theory is that he adapted the "mountain minor" or "Sawmill" 5 string banjo tuning gDGCD. Just checking.

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Martin Carthy that should be.

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DADGAD often gives such a recognisable sound. Pierre Bensusan uses DADGAD as his normal tuning, but somehow manages not to sound like he’s using it.
Bye now
Keith

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Richard Grainger singer songwriter.

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‘I would say that Jimmy Page abuses DADGAD,I’ve never rated him,couldn’t stand Led Zeppelin what a load of chesty;bombastic crap.Plus they stole all their "best" songs from other artists.’ so says Dafydd.

Cheesy bombastic crap? Is Stairway to Heaven the only Zep tune you’ve heard?! Led Zep had many sublime acoustic moments, great variety of style and there was never a tighter rock band. As for them stealing stuff from other people how does the phrase go…

"Good artists borrow, great artists steal’

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ok I misread chesty for cheesy but still what I say stands!

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II really like Martin Simpson and his alteration of DADGAD to DADGAC…a really nice modal variation. And I agree with dafydd about the "sawmill" tuning adaptation from the banjo.

Led Zeppelin, not so much…and I do know a lot more than "Stairway to Heaven…;)

Interesting comment on the Bothies…would love to know what songs BegF says they’ve "stolen" from other artists. As dafydd correctly states, there is no copyright on traditional music as there is no known composer.

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Not a Led Zep fan at all - saw an early gig and felt them arrogant and over posturing. Do like the song "Black Muddy River" that Norma Waterson sings.
As for early Dadgaders - can’t believe it was a ‘63 EP that had some Dadgad on it, I would reckon at least 4 years on that before it got through the links between Davy Graham and Martin Carthy, especially as I knew some of the other guys in the chain. I remember playing with Dadgad on my Giannini gut-strung guitar in about ‘68 (oh dear, I feel very old all of a sudden).

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^^some people have a right to be arrogant if they make music like Led Zep (not many)

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khimmaj scale appears to be what we call the mixolydian.but is the second note of the scale left out?

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I’m just speculating here but DADGAD could have its origins in African guitar playing. African guitarists often use different tunings, maybe it went from Africa to the US to England and then Ireland. I know Open G tuning had that kind of evolution, adapted by old Blues players from African tunings then used for Bluegrass, JImmy Page used it, then Paul Brady used it for ttrad.

So my speculation on DADGAD is just a theory based on no hard evidence but one that might be worth looking into.

I don’t play DADGAD myself.

I didn’t realise so many trad folks hated Led Zep, the only ‘stealing’ they did was use a few folk tunings and cover a few blues songs. They made everything their own and came up with some truly original music. I believe some English folkies got annoyed at them for giving their twee folk a bit of balls, probably the same people who called Dylan ‘Judas’ for playing electric guitars!!

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Davy Graham may have used DADGAD on his EP with Alexis Koerner, "3/4 AD" (early ‘60’s, I don’t have the record any longer, so can’t check.) There was definitely some unusual stuff going on, and it left the folky strummers in awe for years.
(Yes, I was one of them.)

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dafydd—I wasn’t looking for a fight, or questioning your credentials. "Just checking" was literally that. I didn’t even know what DADGAD was until a few years ago, have learned a lot from the Mustard Board—was trying to further my education.

Oh, and a singer/songwriter named Hans York does some non-ITM songs in DADGAD.

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Frisbee,

You’re very ill-informed.

Led Zep’s numerous thefts are well documented.

See here, for example:

http://www.furious.com/perfect/yardbirds2.html

and pay heed to this quote ‘Taking a stray riff is one thing. Appropriating an entire song’s music and lyrics while listing yourself as the author is quite another.

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To be fair, The fantastic Led Zeppelin were not the only band to steal from the blues, virtually every beat/blues/rock group in the 60’s made the genre a wholesale help yourself stealing ground. Very few of the original authors made any money from royalty credits. Business acumen was not a strong point in those times, and neither should it be today

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I had the misfortune to see Led Zeppelin’s fist major appearance at the Bath Festival in 1970.page soloing away and getting nowhere and Plant howling like kid screaming for a lollipop.They did more than "cover a few blues songs"They stole " Whole Lotta Love" (orig. ‘You Need Love’ by Muddy Waters,wtitten by Willie Dixon) "Baby I’m Gonna Leave You","How many More Times"(Howlin’ Wolf),"The Lemon Song"(Robert Johnson).The melody and guitar part on "Stairway" is a straight steal from an instrumental called "Aquarius" on Spirit’s first album released in 1968,two years before Page borrowed it.Why Randy California never sued is a mystery to me.They pinched "Shake ‘Em On Down" by Charlie Patton,murdered it and turned it into "Hats Off To Roy Harper"They even invented a time machine and went back to the 18th century and wrote "Gallow’s Pole",it was Leadbelly’s version.If you record a trad. song,you put Trad; Arr; so and so,you still get the royalties but acknowledge that you didn’t write the song.The stones credited everyone.When they recorded "You Got To Move" by Mississippi Fred McDowell they credited him and made sure his widow got the money.If Jagger and Richards could do it,why couldn’t Plant and Page? "Black Mountainside" or whatever the hell they called it is of course "Black Waterside" not Bert Jansch’s version as is widely believed,Bert played it in dropped D,Page learned it from Al Stewart who played it in DADGAD but got it subtly wrong,and page played it even worse than Al.How can Page have the brass neck to claim that he wrote it? The Yardbird’s drummer wrote "Dazed And Confused",Page changed the words and credited it to himself and poor old Jim McCarty never saw a penny.What a sod that man Page must be."Never was a tighter rock band"! Do me a favour! Little Feat,The J.Geils Band,The Magic band circa 1972 now they were tight.How could Zep have been tight with Bonham thumping the bejasus out of the drums like a demented boilermaker on speed? i’ve got news for you Zep fans,they didn’t write "You Shook Me" either.What a godawful track,the worst pedal steel playing known to science.Page was never in the same class as Hendrix,Clapton or Jeff Beck.If you like Led Zeppelin you should lend an ear to Pavlov’s Dog,they sounded like a musical Led Zeppelin.Well frisbee,I think we’ve established that I know more about those musical magpies than "Stairway" And strayaway,you’re wrong.The Yardbirds,The Beatles,Them,The Stones,The Zombies,The Pretty Things, and many other groups in the 60’s always credited the blues and rythym and blues songs.The beach Boys pinched "Sweet Little Sixteen" and turned it into "Surfin’ USA" and rapidly found themselves in court.

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And Mickray,I apologise.

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I knew about the Stairway to Heaven thing being a rip-off of that Aquarius track, but to be honest Stairway To Heaven is a much much better track than Aquarius, which is quite dull. In fact the reason Led Zeppelin are so revered and influential is that they took all these influences and made them their own as I said ‘Good artists borrow, great artists steal".

All the stuff about them ripping off the old blues artists is a bit dubious and maybe Jimmy Page was a bit cheeky to take credit for all that stuff but Zeppelin were still simply on of the greatest bands ever, Dafydd obviously doesn’t like them and that’s his right, but I think his hate is a bit obsessive, I’ve never heard such vitriol blasted against Zeppelin.

I wonder would Dafydd have the same vitriol for all those tune writers who take bits of old tunes, slightly alter them and then call them their own new tunes? This happens all the time with trad.

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Good response, dafydd. I don’t think that I’m wrong in saying that many of the groups you mention stole the essence of early blues recordings and made commercial gain from them. True, Page was not in the same league as Hendrix, Clapton or Beck but not too many were, Allman & Cooder being two of only a handful of contenders. I don’t think it unreasonable to say that after the royalty cheques started arriving, the spirit of the blues was forgotten.

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dafydd—apology accepted, hugs and kisses, etc.

OK, now you guys can get back to your lively tangential offshoot. I learn a lot from those, too. ;>}

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You forgot that satan co-wrote Zeppelin IV. (grin)

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Open tunings were quite commonly used by American slide blues guitarists, who probably never heard any Indian music. As good as Davy Graham was, I doubt he "invented" the tuning.

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And let us not forget that Page stole his much vaunted trick of playing the guitar with a violin bow from Eddie Clark,lead guitarist of The Creation,a band who nver got the the recognition they deserved.Eddie Clark was a big influence on Pete Townshend,and was once invited to join The High Numbers.Of course Page never once mentioned Eddie’s name in an interview.page is a bit of a fantasist.He was a studio musician and claimed he played lead on various hit singles in the early to mid sixties,when it was Big Jim Sullivan who actually played lead,with Page on rythym guitar.Page did play lead on "Sunshine Superman" by Donovan.I agree that "Stairway" is a more polished track than "Aquarius",but that’s not the point.Why didn’t Randy California get a credit? I’m sorry if I keep banging on about this,but I think that plagiarism is the eighth deadly sin. Just to show that I’m not an old curmudgeon,just for you Zep fans out there here is a clip of Jimmy Page on tv at the age of 14 when he was a skiffler.
http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=pfiyEsMOSu0

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Watch it now because Page has had the video removed from other sites because of copyright violation! The words pot,kettle and black come to mind.

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amazing that people are comparing jimmy page to eric claptout! I used to think he was good when i was a kid cos the media told me he was good. Then I heard his abysmal version of John Martyn’s May You Never. John M uses dadgad here and there afaik

Regarding Plagiarism - didn’t guy debord once say that ‘plagiarism is necessary, progress implies it’? Always makes me laugh.

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>>I would say that Jimmy Page abuses DADGAD

How on earth can you abuse a guitar tuning? Ludicrous idea.

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The invention of DADGAD is generally attributed to the enigmatic and English Davey Graham. "Graham invented the DADGAD tuning in order to play Eastern and Arabic music on the guitar."- Colin Harper, article In the Moment, Acoustic Guitar magazine, Sept-Oct 1993.

"Graham came up with the DADGAD tuning while accompanying oud players in Morocco." - Mark Hanson, in The Alternate Tunings Guide for Guitar, 1991.

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Doobie Brothers; Blackwater might be in DADGAD.

And BLACKWATER USA use BAGDAD tuning???

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Thanks for that frisbee - that really is clapped-out. However, it’s interesting to note that he’s not in DADGAD and yet he manages to introduce a sons of the desert style oriental motif inside his tremendously well constructed ….errrrrrrrr … solo 😉

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Why do you keep referring to the Spirit track as Aquarius? On my CD copy its listed as Taurus. Another thing, Randy California was more than a great guitar player, he was a great man, which is far more important, and while I’m on the subject, lets not forget Irelands Rory Gallagher, another great man who retained the true spirit to the end. Discussing who was/is a great player boils down to personal taste, I don’t know or care who the greatest was/is but I do know what I like. Neil Young for e.g. plays in a style that I think is fantastic but few would rate him among the all time elite. Technical proficiency does not mean good, in any genre.

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Led Zeppelin <— great studio band; Page a brilliant producer and arranger with an excellent ear, espec. for guitar tone

Led Zeppelin <— a crapola live act; saw them twice in early 70s (jaysus, I was alive back then?); Page/Bonham/Jones were Three Stooges sloppy and Plant was "The Hoarse Whisperer" compared to his studio work

Spirit / Rory Gallagher / early Clapton <— ahhh, them wuz the days

Neil Young <— genius, recently dumbed-down by generic, by rote, politicized hate sputterings. Aneurysm? Maybe, baby.

BAGDAD tuning <— larf of the day

Opinions are odious, especially mine.

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Thanks strayaway.It is called Taurus,I haven’t played the album for years.I really don’t know where I got Aquarius from.I think I’ll slip it on the turntable now.I’m glad that someone agrees that Zeppelin were an awful live act.Randy California was a wonderful guitarist.When he was sixteen years old he played in Jimi Hendrix’s band in New York.When Chas Chandler brought Henrdix to London in 1966 the plan was to bring Randy too,but there were visa and parent problems.Henrix gave him his soubriquet.There were two Randys in the band so Hendrix called one Randy New York and the other Randy California,because that’s where he was from.

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Amazed that this thread hasn’t explicitly mentioned Rory Gallagher’s sublime verison of Leadbelly’s " Out on the Western Plain" - one of the best DADGAD numbers ever.

Led Zeppelin always attract strong opinions don’t they? However yiu feel about the band, Jimmy Page is a fine guitar player and should be respected for it. Simialrly however you feel about Clapton the PERSON, he can play the guitar as well.

No westerner invented DADGAD…

Western arrogance and hypocrisy truly know no limits.

Davey Graham developed DADGAD?

Yeah, ok…. NOT.

This is an ANCIENT East Asian tuning.

Y’all want to whine about Zeppelin’s adaptations and call them plagairists, then don’t be hypocrites and give Graham credit for something he didn’t invent.

And I’m sorry, but guys, ALL the greats (some of whom really weren’t that great) steal shamelessly from other sources. Ray Charles… a big chunk of his music is just old gospel songs with new lyrics. Elvis ripped off every great black blues artist under the sun and gave them exactly zero credit. The Grateful Dead did pretty much the same… but I love em anyway. Beatles "Twist and Shout"? It’s Ritchie Valens doing the folk song La Bamba. And the Rolling Stones… well… once Mick and Keith took over most of the writing duties from Brian Jones, at first they were shamelessly ripping off the top 40 of American pop music, weren’t they?

Simon and Garfunkel? Classical operatic scales. Crosby Stills and Nash? Opera again, with gospel influences thrown in… layered voices, identical notes for multiple instruments a la Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. In fact EVERYONE rips off Mozart’s styles… Hendrix’s guitar and accompanying bass playing the exact same thing was a Mozart fingerprint in his later years. Ditto for Led Zep and a ton of other hard rock bands who’d double up guitar and bass on the same riffs… it’s just a different take on Mozart’s original theme.

The Who were grand thefters too. Baba O’Riley is Beethoven. Pinball Wizard is flamenco and dervish music. I Can See For Miles is a compilation of Mozart riffs. Who Are You is 100% derived from that song Mozart wrote when he was a little kid that every music teacher makes you practice combined with Mozart’s Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. My Generation is more or less Mozart too, same melodic sources as Who Are You on vocals, and Townsend’s two chord riff is Mozart too, from Don Giovanni or the fiery violins from Reqiuem Mass.

So everyone burns everyone. The Who burns Mozart on My Generation, the Beach Boys burn the Who on Good Vibrations, the Stones burn the Beach Boys, ad infinitum.

I’ve lost count at least 25 years ago of the number of times I’ve heard the blues, jazz, or rock n roll steal from Mozart or Bach or Beethoven literally note for note. So IMO it’s just plain silly to p*ss on a band for being ripoff artists. It’s been impossible NOT to rip someone off for a century or more, ever since we began recording music for private listening pleasure.

Also IMO, Led Zeppelin’s charm is/was their cheekiness… the blatant and often nasty themes they visited over and over again… the in your face references to bareback sex and anal sex and other nastiness are everywhere. And I’m sorry, but turning a Mozart riff into the opening riff for Wearing and Tearing, which is very openly about anal sex, takes big brass balls… and Mozart himself probably woulda thought it was hilarious.

Calling an album In Through the Out Door takes balls. Remaking Hand Jive into Custard Pie was brilliant… so brilliant that Prince turned it into Kiss, and George Michael turned it into Faith, and every time that riff shows up somewhere, the artists make $$$ and NO ONE credits Johnny Otis. Prince even turned Wearing and Tearing into Ronnie Talk to Russia, and no one seems to whine about that, do they?

Everyone steals. That’s music. It’s not what you borrow that matters, it’s what you do with it, and how you put your own stamp on it. And Led Zeppelin was brilliant at doing precisely that… taking well known sounds and using their big brass balls to make those rehashes into something distinctly Zeppelin.

So to Hell with all the critics and art snobs. ALL Rock n Roll is nothing more than an homage to what has gone before, but I’ll love my Zeppelin and AC/DC and the Who and oh-so many others till I die, right alongside the old Blues bands, Mozart, and Ludwig Van.

Evolution, baby. Same DNA in a brand new skin. That’s what it’s all about.

Peace