MP3 Sharing

MP3 Sharing

Alright, is anyone here interested in sharing Mp3s of trad music here? i’ve been trawling through soul seek and the likes a few times looking for stuff but with very litle success. I’ve a rake of stuff as it is, all ripped from CD’s so if anyone has a bit of a collection (or not) i’m up for sharing what i’ve got. There’s only so much i’m willing to spend on cds you see, and its fairly hard to come by any of the things i’m after, so any old coleman and stuff like that, any box music is the sort of job i’m after.

I’m not trying to start a discussion on the ethics of file sharing by the way, i’m grand with it.

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Jaysus Rollix, thats a brave name around here 😛

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"I’m not trying to start a discussion on the ethics of file sharing by the way, i’m grand with it."
but you started one anyway…
do you cheat at cards, too?

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It’s an interesting concept and certainly one that a number of professional musicians actively encourage (eg Show of Hands). However I would urge caution about using this forum as a mechanism for file sharing.

Some of us may have dipped into a Napster when it was illegal or more currently LimeWire but that activity doesn’t threaten this board, as what we do independently doesn’t reflect on thesession.

As an individual I am happy to file share (it’s the anarchist in me), but I would be opposed to the notion of doing so as part of this forum. Perhaps those willing to share should contact independently via email or maybe even set up a separate forum to that effect.

In that way we preserve this site and ensure that thesession doesn’t get caught up in the legality and ethical issues of copyright

D

It’s like mom used to say…

"I don’t want you doing it, but if you decide to anyway, then don’t tell me about it"

Seriously though - this kind of activity hurts the musicians who’s very music we crave and wish for.

Avi

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There have always been endless excuses for stealing. Burglers rob house because the owner has something they don’t, and they’re not willing to buy it for themselves. It’s much easier to kick in a door or break glass than work hard and save up the money to get it yourself. But I have worked with all kinds of addicts in the past, and those addicted to amassing huge collections of tunes ~ and their excuses bear crushing similarities to those whose drug habit direves them… "I’ve gotta have it!"

The industry that supports our shared traditional music, is not huge, it is small. You hurt that, do it damage, and you do damage to the reputation of the artist and artists, a reputation that is partly built on how many sales they make as far as their CDs…

Is it not wiser to have to save up your pennies and then purchase selectively, because you CAN NEVER HAVE IT ALL!? Then you will have a well chosen collection based on what you felt it worthy enough to save for and purchase, instead of everything you can grab on the cheap…

Yeah, I understand about things no longer available, old 78s and cylinders, and there are several sites online that are helping to make these things available, but it’s a cop out to use that as a cover for your stealing, stealing from the thing you claim to have a passion for. Is that passion for the ‘tradition’ or for yourself, being tight and unwilling to support it with coins? These artists deserve our respect, and not just movement of the lips and in a shallow folkie way. Most of the theifs I’ve known that have amassed a huge collection of copied material have tended to be just that ~ dabblers and weekend folkies, whose support for ‘tradition’ tends to be cosmetic…

I also understand folks that want to learn something, so they get a few times through a tune MP3’d and use that to learn it. But, mostly, folks I know who have taken that direction, friends and working musicians, own the CDs they MP3…SUPPORT the small industry giving these artists opportunity ~ distribution ~ a hearing…

So, don’t call it ‘sharing’ ~ it’s a rip-off! It is disrespect!

It’s theft!!!

It’s Bollox Rollix!

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As far as I’m concerned, if they’re dead going on a quarter-century, they’re not gonna care to much if we share their records; and if they were alive, would Seamus Ennis, Denis Murphy, Johnny Doherty, really say, "NO, you can’t pass around my record! That’s for me to make money!"?

—DtM

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Dan the Man, what a stupendously ignorant comment! Do you really believe that copyright dies with a musician? Think on, lad, think on.

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As I understand it, musicians don’t make a whole helluva lot of money off record/cd sales. Their bread and butter comes from touring.

And I believe there is something about "Fair use for education" which is a grey area. It’s how websites with tabs, ABC and sheet music can exist.

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If the artist is long gone, and the recording is out of print and highly unlikely to be re-issued… you might have an excuse.

But consider this: The production and manufacturing costs for that CD may well have been paid by somebody who really loves The Music, and doesn’t expect to make much (if any) profit from it—but has put up the money anyway, hoping to get their investment back. Eventually.

I once worked for a non-profit publisher, one whose books tried in a small way to make the world a better place. I told people: We don’t make books to make money—we make money so we can make more books.

If you want to help spread the gospel of traditional music, do the right thing and buy the CD, or get a subscription to a legitimate download source.

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"Fair use for education" which is a grey area. ~ Fishmonger

No it isn’t, it is a very specific law with clear outlines of what you can and can’t do, and schools and churches, out of such ignorance, or thinking they’ll never get caught, are regular breakers of copyright and do get caught out and heavily fined…

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“if they were alive, would Seamus Ennis, Denis Murphy, Johnny Doherty, really say, ‘NO, you can’t pass around my record! That’s for me to make money!’?”

Let‘s not pretend that we know how those gentlemen would answer or that they could speak for everybody else who has recorded.

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’ if they were alive, would Seamus Ennis, Denis Murphy, Johnny Doherty, really say, "NO, you can’t pass around my record! That’s for me to make money!"?’

When Seamus Ennis was alive Tara records did keep his Pure Drop and Foxchase album in print despite the not ver ycost effective sleeve, to provide him with a bit of income. Or so I was told at the time.

These were not men of money. And had they been alive today they would have needed the addition to their pension in order to stay alive, you can be sure of that.

Posted .

"As I understand it, musicians don’t make a whole helluva lot of money off record/cd sales. Their bread and butter comes from touring." ~ Fishmonger again

Touring is partly fueled by how popular the group is, and one of the few measures of that is the sales of their CDs…

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It’s really disingenuous to call this stealing. Theft implies that the victim of theft has had some property removed from his or her, and is thereby deprived of its use. Not the case with sharing music or lending books. Remember when home-taping killed music? Neither is any copyright infringement ‘theft’. Most Irish musicians make next to nothing out of record sales, the corporations make the money. The same is the case with classical music and all but the top level of rock. There are many people who go on and on here on thesession.org defending the music corporations. It’s really boring, and because they can’t muster a good argument against sharing music they go on about ‘theft’, which is changing the subject. Grow up!

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It’s called intellectual property and is defined and recognized by law, and it is also recognized as theft… It is ‘disingenuous’ to rattle off excuses for it… You steal! It’s theft! If you’re happy with that, fine. What can I do. But don’t keep lieing to yourself that there’s something worthy about it… And no, it isn’t ‘defending the corporations’ ~ another cheap trick of the guilty to pass the buck or excuse their theft. "We’re stealing from the multinationals!" ~ CRAP! For one it’s mostly small businesses supporting these recordings of the ‘tradition’ and its offshoots. What a load of ignorant shight. Whistleblower fits, out your backside…

Yeah, this might get axed. I hope it does. We have better things to discuss than having to put up with the drivel of excuses for stealing the work of others and pretending we’re doing the tradition some good, that we’re anarchists fighting the great machine of corporations… HA! Pull the other one…

You want to ‘share’ music? ~ Share your own, don’t pirate someone else’s…

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I’m still waiting for an answer…
Do you cheat at cards, too?

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Alright, i was expected a row here, it hasn’t been too nasty yet though, its still relatively civil, hopefully it’ll stay that way.

First of all i wasn’t trying to use this forum as a file ‘sharing’ device, just to contact others who are up for it, maybe i should have proposed the idea a little more tactfully. Either way it doesn’t look like i’m going to have any luck here now, so it seems a bit of a futile quest anyway.

I’m an advocate of music sharing in all its forms anyway, from taping things off your mates to downloading new music, and i don’t really believe it damages the industry. Its benefit as a form of promotion, i believe, outweighs the loss of revenue from lost sales, by bringing the music to a much wider audience. People still by cds you see, i buy cds all the time, if i like something i want the full package with artwork and sleeve notes(especially important in trad), but i like to know what i buy. If i go cd shopping i’m going to buy music by artists i’ve heard of, at 20 quid a pop its not worth shelling out on a cd just cos there’s a picture of the instrument you play on the front, there’s lots of dubious touristy stuff out there, and i’m fairly particular.(i’ve been stung with stuff i don’t like plenty of times). I couldn’t be too sure but i reckon most trad artists make the guts of their income from live shows, which can only benefit from more people knowing the music. Mp3 sharing is only an extension of lending cds and records to people you know. Remember those warnings on record sleeves that said "Home taping is Killing music, and its illegal", well they were obviously wrong. There was alot of fuss about this mp3 business a few years ago, but thats mostly blown over now that the industry has learned how to deal with it. The trad industry would be more vulnerable than Major label pop stuff, but it is also, by nature, less susceptable to it because the audience are older and more loyal (or just technophobic).
I don’t consider it theft, since for me, trad is anti-commercial in nature, thats part of the beauty of it, you can walk into a local session and hear music for free all over the country, the players are there purely for the music(beer ,banter etc), so its untainted, self sufficient entertainment which costs nothing (only what you spend on Pints). Asside from that little or none of the music is written by the players, its shared amongst them, so you’re not depriving them of royalties.
Not that any of you’s would want to hear me, but if i had any recordings out i would have no problem with them being shared.

Finally the idea of this pursuit was too try and get hold of old or unusual stuff, things which i’ve read about but never heard, and things i’ve just never heard of, too expand my knowledge of the tradition and repatoir of tunes. I’ve no interest in Lunasa, or danú,so i spend alot of time digging in second hand record stores but thats a fairly joyless endeavour these days(unless you like ‘The best of irish Pub ballads’ Sort of stuff), i just thought i’d give this a go….

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I don’t think there is a simple ‘right v. wrong’ answer to sharing music files. There’s a whole lot of aspects to consider, like morality, copyright law, etc. I like the idea of music that’s in the public domain and free for anyone, which is something important about ITM tunes.

Don’t you think that Sony or Warner Bros. or EMI would just love to have copyright on all those tunes in O’Neill if they could find a way to get ownership and charge you every time they were played ?

Funnily enough, I’ve just been reading an article that touches on some of the issues, here

http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2007/11/29/anarchy-vs-digital-copyright.html

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whistleblower—I’m curious. Have you ever put out your own CD? Sweated over the recording and mixing and graphic design, gone to the trouble of getting legal clearances for tunes that needed it, put up your own hard-earned cash to get it manufactured? And hoped (a faint hope, in some cases) that you might sell enough copies to get at least some of your money back?

Even if you are lucky enough to find a company willing to make that kind of investment in your music, you would still want people to get the real thing, with your liner notes and all the rest, because you are proud of it.

I don’t think you have done any of this, or you wouldn’t talk about who is and isn’t a grown-up.

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that post a bit dated i think, the discussion sort of ran away with itself while i was writing it, the civility is certainly gone..

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Thanks for your explanation. Not that it changes my mind, but at least you have tried to explain yourself…
I buy my CD’s from the artists and I make my check out to them personally, never a corporation. They usually have their CD’s in second-hand luggage. And they come out at intermission and at the end of concerts to sell them. They then can hopefully buy a tank of gas and go the long distance home after a meal.
Burning one of their CD’s takes money out of their pocket.

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A punk band i was in a few years ago put out a record, which we wrote recorded designed and paid for ourselves, i’m from the DIY background you see, so it was all anti-copyright,
Most of those records are under my bed now though

and eh no, i don’t cheat at cards

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Anybody got a dictionary handy? Look up “rationalize.” Or “rationalise.”

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Ceolachan. What is being stolen? Who is being deprived of its use? For all your ranting and rudeness you have not answered these questions. The state does call it theft and stealing, but we ought not to buy into this language. See Richard Stallman’s entry under "Theft": http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html

Also Ceolachan, you really ought to learn some manners!

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‘Tunes’ are public domain, not recordings. So, yes, as said, share tunes, share your own playing or a session recording.

The hypocrisy of this is obvious ~ "if i had any recordings out i would have no problem with them being shared." ~ Rollix

You don’t!

Lately many of the recordings out and for sale are self-produced. Why do I feel so passionately about this, well, I’ve known and worked with some of these recording artists, and I have heard their opinion on the act of piracy. I have also known specialist recording companies that have sank, while everywhere there were pirated copies in greater abundance than those they sold, while they were in business and struggling. It doesn’t surprise me that those who haven’t made the grade or the effort are those most willing to pirate and share their ill gotten gains.

Keep throwing at us the ‘big corporate picture’, and the politics of definition and use ~ ‘theft’ and ‘intellectual property’. As said, a lot of these works aren’t even small businesses, they are the artists themselves paying out with sweat, effort, accumulated skill ~ and money. So, yes, YOU ARE STEALING DIRECTLY FROM THE ARTISTS!!! ~ as well as from those small recording companies, and all that makes it go, recording studios, the button junkies, etc…

I would have nothing to say if you just admitted your theft and were honest with a simple "I could give a f’k!" Instead the hypocrisy continues…

‘whistleblower’, you actually have the gall to mention ‘manners’, as if you had any… Your act of promoting ‘theft’ doesn’t call for a mannered response. It really doesn’t deserve any more waste of passion on my part. But it does make me angry when excuses are made that are rediculous and unsupportable… Just admit theft and stop defending it…

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I think that over the last 30 years I spent so much money on live music at clubs, concerts and festivals that I am entitled to use the mp3s I find on the net for my personal use. And this includes swapping them with a partner. I wouldn’t make a system out of it or do it on a grand scale. But on a personal basis as Rollix suggested I find it OK. I do support artists by buying their CDs and also posted some under recordings on this site or linked them from my website.
At 15 I used a tape machine to record radio programmes, now I look for mp3s. Would artists make their songs available at myspace if they didn’t want them to be spread?
OK if you’re a pro I can understand that you’re feeling ripped off if selling CDs is part of your income. But swapping home recordings has been a way to draw people into our music for decades. Don’t get so uptight about this.

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For sure! (isn’t Ceolachan an angry little man!)

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It isn’t just about living artists. The work and passion that has gone into recent CDs in honour and respect of past masters also deserve our support, monetarily. A small sampling:

"Junior Crehan: The Last House in Ballymakea"
https://thesession.org/recordings/display/2099

"Con Cassidy: Traditional Fiddle Music from Donegal"
https://thesession.org/recordings/display/2660

"Paddy Muphy: In Good Hands"
https://thesession.org/recordings/display/2862

"The Clare Set: Concertina Traditions of County Clare"

These too have earned my respect, not just for the musicians they represent, but for the effort of collection, editing, compilation and comment…and deserve my investment and time. This discussion no longer does…

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Now, there is theft and theft, and laws and laws. Just because a country like GB say pass laws to all but outlaw workers’ rights, doesn’t mean the laws are right, and workers’ don’t deserve any rights.

And copyright laws, like a lot of laws designed to make corporations richer, sometimes leave a lot to be desired. Those laws which forbid supermarkets to sell levi jeans or replica football jersies for £10, and still make a profit, must be morally wrong, especially as those who proclaim them also proclaim a "free" market.

Now, I would download music, supposedly illegal. However much of this would be Dylan, Taylor, Waits, Cohen etc, and the corporations that rip off musicians can do without my contribution, in my opinion. Dylan doesn’t need his couple of pence out of it either.

However, the type of ITM recordings described above, small groups who have sweated to make a recording, usually sell them at gigs, and pocket the cash, I would BUY their products. I realise I am abetting crime as they shouldn’t pocket the cash, it’s illegal, but again I think it is a bad law that deprives the musicians’ of the money.

So, let us show a bit of political nous and commonsense here.
Those with money fund politicians to make laws that will make them more money. We don’t have to meekly accept that. And please do support little known musicians, and BUY their products, the best method being by paying cash directly to them, illegal but morally sound.

So please show a bit of perspective on this, laws unfortunately are not a case of it must be right.

So if you want to rip off Warner Brothers or Microsoft, you have my vote and support as a fellow revolutionary fighting the good fight for a better distribution of the world’s wealth. But if you are ripping off the poor, I condemn you.

Bliss

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Next thing you know, we’ll have to pay ‘royalties’ for every tune played at a session……..

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They tried that in Dublin. Absolute nonsense.

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I’m sure glad this didn’t turn into a discussion on the ethics of file sharing.

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@MacCruiskeen: not the question of copyright, but the direct issue of what the artist thinks. I’ve met a couple professional Irish trad musicians and I’ve never had any of them respond negatively to me mentioning burning CDs of them or swapping recordings and things. It’s always seemed very much to me that they play for the music, not the money, and it’s reflected in their attitudes on the music-sharing issue, but granted, a few individuals’ opinions doesn’t decide the issue as a whole.

—DtM

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I agree whole-heartedly with BB on this, especially the point about the morality of certain laws. Now, I buy a lot of CDs, probably about 300 in the last year, I buy from a variety of sources including legal download sites and from a wide spectrum of artists. My most recent purchase was "Old Boots And Flying Sandals" by Tim Dennehy, cost was £2.95 on ebay, brand new. Is this an immoral purchase? Please tell me. Also, if someone sells me a second hand CD that they no longer need, is that immoral because I should have bought it new? Has the original owner the right to retain a copy because they bought it new? I have enthusiastically supported live music all my life and, especially in the case of ITM artists, have purchased CDs at their concerts on a morally acceptable cash in hand basis, in some cases it would be cheaper to buy them from a retailer, no hint of double standards there. The main topic of this thread is file sharing, is it morally right? To again give a personal example, I own roughly 40 Neil Young CDs, many which I have purchased several times in different formats, I believe that I may be entitled to access and download, for free, any new recording made by him from such sites as Limewire etc, what do you think? I could put the same case for several other artists in my collection. Let us not forget that for many years after the advent of CD we were ripped off big style by greedy record companies and they now don’t like the payback from ripped off customers, no sympathy from me. As regards ITM CDs, why can I buy a lot of releases from america at half the retail price charged in Ireland? Do the artists get more royalties for purchases here? Couldn’t be that the government and record companies are taking us for mugs, could it? I will continue to use my moral judgement on free file sharing.

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Well put Bliss.

There are many artists out there who need and receive our consistent support and long may it be so. They have not been supported by multinational music corporations and their main income is from either the gig or the self-produced CD they sell at the gig. I would hope that none of us here would want to deprive many of these fine artists from a livelihood!

However there are also a number of significant traditional music artists who have established a good income from their art and have been amply supported by their record companies. In these instances the boundaries are less clear. The act of file sharing has often introduced me to a new artist and as a result I have gone to a great deal of effort to secure their album. Equally there are a number of ‘top-line’ folk musicians who I wouldn’t touch with a barge pole. Many of these successful musicians see the advantage in file sharing and encourage it as a mechanism to allow them to obtain a greater audience. Maybe if traditional music was catered better on our radio networks this sharing would be obsolete - but until then …

Also there is the not insubstantial question of who receives the money from these royalties. Undoubtedly the evidence is clear in the main part it isn’t the artist. So am I truly depriving the artist - or am I depriving the fat cats?

The reality is that most often I have downloaded a few tracks to see if I like the artist and if I do I will then buy a large amount of their work and where possible attend their gigs. An example of this was the Matt Molloy/ John Carty album Pathway to the Well. I downlaoded several editions of the trad programmes on Clare fm and listened to their music. I then isolated 4 separated tracks to play together on 1 CD. Did I commit an offence? Of course. Did it injure the artist? Only if they were not to my taste, in which case I wouldn’t keep the file anyway. In this particular example it ensured that I bought the album (as did 3 of my friends once they heard my self-made CD).

D

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I’ve paid thousands of dollars for groceries in the past. Maybe I ought to tell the cashier next time that I don’t think I should have to pay for any more. Besides, most of the money doesn’t go to the farmer, anyway.

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; p

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People agreeing with me! Whatever next?

And Wyogal, the reason your groceries are so pricey is because you are being ripped off. Not too far from Wyoming farmers grow wheat, receive a subsidy for it, harvest it, and then it is dumped in the sea or destroyed. Why? Because if we used this wheat a loaf of bread would cost about 40 cents, whereas it now costs $2.40 where I live, £1.20 or so. Of course we could use this excess to end world poverty, but then a loaf of bread would be about 20 cents. Mr Wallmart couldn’t be expected to struggle along on a mere 300 billion a year, could he?

So instead of just accepting a cruel world, do something about it. Pity we can’t download groceries.

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I’m not just going along with the ways of the cruel world when I purchase a CD from an artist. I’ve spoken with more than a few that get quite irritated with folks not buying them and instead, ripping them off by burning an illegal download.
And you really needn’t tell me about wheat farmers… I was raised in ND and come from a farm family. (and they certainly didn’t get rich farming)
If y’all want to rationalize why it’s O.K. to share files of music available for purchase, then go ahead. Your arguments don’t convince me.
I wouldn’t play cards with many of you…

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Instead of thinking we deserve everything now and without effort or pay (driven by greed and a mind and life stuck repeating me!-me!-me!!!) ~

Doing it right, sharing of the best sort:

Discussion: Members advice on this matter-please…
# Posted on February 7th 2008 by FIDDLE4
https://thesession.org/discussions/16638

http://uk.youtube.com/fiddle4u

Share your own, don’t pirate someone else’s hard work and effort…

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I am that old it was LPs we sold after gigs. They were a large size, carrying a box of those about was hard graft, CDs at least are compact.

And if people are burning CDS with me on them, fair play, I played for a set fee, and royalties at that level would not be great.

Paying $160, £80 pounds for levi jeans, which should retail at £8 or $16 dollars, now that is a crime.

And glad to see that many of the farmers on the Great Plains and prairies are growing cannabis, harvesting it, and taking it to Canada to sell. Makes a lot more sense than getting a subsidy to destroy stuff.

Hasta La Victoria Siempre.

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Wow. Didn’t anybody ever dub tapes back in the day? I never recalled it being much of a moral quandry back then. To be honest, some of the best music in my collection came from tapes people made for me, stuff you don’t see too often nowadays. Kinda the same thing, though, isn’t it?

Of course, I’m not saying it’s right—it’s just part of the game.

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“Wow. Didn’t anybody ever dub tapes back in the day? I never recalled it being much of a moral quandry back then.”

I do. This same discussion/argument was going on in music forums 20-25 years ago. I know that some minds were changed. Probably not many.

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I don’t know where you buy your Levi’s; mine only cost $34.95. But, I usually buy them for less, on sale. Then they go to my husband until they get almost worn out, then I get them. (my preference)
So much for your figures.

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Downloading tracks isn’t theft of intellectual property. That would be if you claimed you’d written a tune when you hadn’t.
Which strangely enough, quite a few recorded trad musicians have done.

wyogal, how can you deprive Levis of revenue by sharing a pair of them with your husband? Do you cheat at cards too?

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LOL!! good one!

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we just like getting into each other’s pants…

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Thanks, Wyogal, you just emphasised my point about exploitation. In the designer outlet stores at greatly reduced prices, Levi’s own store, you can get jeans for a mere $110. Why this price, if only;y $34 dollars in the good old US of A?

Mind you, I bet gasoline isn’t $11 a gallon either.

And nice one Bren.

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"Didn’t anybody ever dub tapes back in the day? I never recalled it being much of a moral quandry back then." ~

copies of copies of copies of copies of copies ~ whole collections taped, walls of tapes ~

& yes, it was in discussion, and there wasn’t a ‘recording’ traditional musician I knew who approved of it… That was the ‘hippie’ ethic back then and the same persists… It was considered and called ‘theft’ back then too.

The raids happened as well, only it was boxes of tapes, and some vinyl too, instead of CDs…

It is funny how we’ll fork out the dosh for loads of things we want, even go into debt for our greed to possess, and yet many of us won’t treat recordings with the same consideration. Their fluid, their ethereal, it’s trad man, it belongs to us all. Spread the joy, share the wealth, we all own everything communally… Peace brother and sister ~ can you spare a dime?

Oh yeah, and free love… Ha!

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My child has just said "musicians should only get paid for performing", all these record sales and royalties for writing songs is a load of crap".

Could be right you know.

Anyone want to buy a few stolen plectrums?

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What if I were to upload a bunch of mp3s of various sessions (in Ireland) that I got from a filesharing arrangement? None of them are commercial recordings, although I know who some of the players are.

Would that satisfy Rollix’ desire for music?
Would it be morally/ethically bad?
Would it hurt the musicians involved, given that the mp3s are already out floating around the internet?

Just wondering…

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As said previously, and I have only ever caught a few who didn’t like that idea Gzeg, why not… It’s the best sort of sharing, raw, not processed, as it comes, not pre-recorded… There are endless recordings knocking about of sessions, and of folks just recording themselves and their friends, or to share tunes and techniques. That seems reasonable to me, and as said, I’ve rarely heard anyone get shirty about being recorded in the bustle and social mix of a session. Yes, a few, only a few. I’m not naming them either… 😉

And as also said ~ old cylinders and 78s…