I have to confess that I absolutely detest them I dont mind rock but traditional music in my eyes is sacred and should not have any other type of music with it.Im eighteen and have been playing trad mucic all my life and am very protective of it in its natural way of being played,am I beeing silly dismissing this new form of traditional music
Could you give some examples of the sort of “Celtic Rock” you detest?
everything to do with it!!
If you will give some more specific indication of what you mean by “Celtic Rock”, then perhaps we can have some sort of meaningful discussion. As it is, I don’t quite know what you are talking about, and I kind of suspect that you don’t either.
Yes, please give specific examples. There are a lot of things that can be classified as Celtic Rock. If you are talking about the local pub band consisting of heavy metal guitar, bass/drums plus bagpipes, I am TOTALLY with you in hating it. But I do like some of what Eileen Ivers and Immigrant Soul do, and I love me some Afro Celt Sound System in small doses, both of which could be called Celtic Rock. Most of what I listen to daily is trad though.
no
dropkick murphys cant be too bad if ronnie drew wrote music with them
I don’t much care for “Celti-crock” myself, now (unless you count Lunasa, which I don’t) but I do owe a lot to it. It led me to the Good Stuff.
You see, I once was lost but now I’m found, and part of the credit goes to… wait for it… Shane MacGowan and the Pogues. I live in hope that the current batch of kilt-wearing electric guitar bashers have the same unintended effect on today’s lost souls. ;>}
well from a practical point of view there may be more gigs in playing that kind of music…but that’s about the only good thing I can say about it. I’d feel like a rent boy playing that stuff so I don’t.
“am I beeing silly dismissing this new form of traditional music” - No, you’re not. But you are beeing silly by worrying where or not individual tastes are of much or any consequence. Dismiss what you like. Plenty people hate trad.
If you have listened to “Celtic Rock” and you have decided that you don’t like it, then there is nothing wrong with you having that opinion. I play traditional music and folk rock and I enjoy both, I think they both have a contribution to make. That’s my opinion. Each to their own. It would be a very dull place (or maybe better for some?) if we all liked and played the same kind of music.
I’m assuming you mean bands like Flogging Molly, Dropkick Murphys, Pogues. I started out listening to a lot of these bands and I still enjoy them. I love traditional tunes and attending sessions, but there is nothing wrong with enjoying other types and variations that have been built upon traditional tunes. Its all taste, don’t let anyone tell you that you are less pure for enjoying some variation. Who knows, maybe in a hundred years we will be sitting around playing a few Floggy Molly tunes and wondering why in the hell the kids are listening to some crazy new form of music.
I am always suspicious of the word ‘Celtic’. I never know what’s meant by it. It seems to go quite often alongside the word ‘pan’ and, as far as I’m concerned, that in turn should probably read ‘deadpan’.
‘Am I being silly dismissing this new form of traditional music?’
Without a doubt, yes, as it’s hardly new. Think of Horslips for starters.
“Who knows, maybe in a hundred years we will be sitting around playing a few Floggy Molly tunes… ”
Whatever label you want to give it. THIS is good Irish song writing. (IMHO) And I’m convinced that someday it will be called “trad”.
“Life In A Tenement Square”
music and lyrics by Dave King
Well I kissed the day, I was on my way
From those cold gray blocks of stone
For seventeen years of squalor filled tears
A time now with innocence lost
As the sun split the room
With its rays filled with gloom
Turnin’ all hope to despair
And the only thing left
Was to flee from the nest
That was Life In A Tenement Square:
I remember the song where the rats sang along
And danced for their daily bread
While the damp washed the walls
That were twenty feet tall
Not a child in the house was fed
On the porter filled face
Of the men left a trace
Of the coin they had already spent
While our mothers asked God
What was Hell ever for
When you lived in a Tenement Square
Grab what’s left of the coal
From the ol’ cubbyhole
These cinders need more to be a fire
While the ghosts of the soldiers
That lived there before us
Laugh with their guns by their side
I hear them laugh, with their guns by their side
Now politicians they dwell
In that forgotten Hell
Our misery’s been turned into mews
Where the fat of the land
Now hog, hand-in-hand
A crime now of life was ever true
As the sun split the room
With its rays filled with gloom
Turnin’ all hope to despair
And the only thing left
Was to flee from the nest
That was Life In A Tenement Square…
Life In A Tenement Square
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALk2eZvFhcU
“Celtic Rock?”. Horslips were stupendous, Fairport excellent, Five Hand Reel did some electric trad, all great.
As I live in N.Ireland which is covered by strong United Kingdom Anti-Racist legislation, I am not aware of the “Dropkick Murphys”. Certainly in England you would be charged under the racist laws for having such a name. Or for wearing one of those Notre Dame baseball caps, with a daft looking leprechaun and the words “The Fighting Irish” on it.
Good old England for its moral stance.
For me, it depends. I don’t mind a certain amount of contemporary instruments (ie. electric guitar, drums, ect.) as back up instruments, but not the main star. I personally really don’t care for fusion music (i.e. african or latin with irish trad). I’ve also heard some comtemporary pieces where it really doesn’t sound much like Irish at all.
I try to keep an open mind, but some music is pretty hard to appreciate. 😛 lol
That’s MHO.
Sara
With only a few acceptations “Celtic Rock” is played by people who know little or nothing about the music they’re referring to as “Celtic.” People who couldn’t be bothered to learn the traditional music and instead took an easier route of just ripping the traditional music off and recruiting some rock musicians to back them up often populate these electric “Celtic Rock” bands.
I don’t personally care for a rock back up for Irish trad, but unless the person or people at the front have properly learned and played the music they claim to be fusing, it’s excruciatingly boring to me.
Yes, you are……🙂
Here are some of my fav’s, any other fans?
Waterboys
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MM55egVKe8A
Spirit of the West
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sPJD3qcIL7s
Great Big Sea
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DOw3w-00Jqw
Call it what you want. I happen to love a lot of the bands and groups listed in this thread. Constant though? No. A dose of Drop-kick goes a long way with me. I loved MacKeel, just started listening to a BC group call, The Town Pants. Great Big Sea is a favorite of mine also. BUT, I just got home from a local session that I play in once or twice a week. Very traditional. It is all great. I also love old time Country/Western, but do not like the newer stuff. Never been a jazz fan. I have been hooked on folk music for as long as I remember. Does listening to any of this make me a person with no taste? I don;t think so, just varied. If there were only one type of music that we could listen to, I think it would be very boring.
I had the chance to listen to John Carty and Roger Landis play here in Montana last spring. A wonderful experience! But one of the things that John said in the workshop, play with the music. If we all have to play it and sound the same, what fun would that be? That is the reason that I quit playing highland bagpipes. If you played around with the tune at all, you were in for chastising about that was not the way it was written. In a group setting you have to, but solo?
“But one of the things that John said in the workshop, play with the music.”
Yea, but I don’t think John was talking about jumping around like an eejit in a green plaid kilt and playing electric fiddle with a rock band behind him.
So Phantom, I guess you don’t like Culann’s Hounds very much huh?
Just wondering since you live in San Francisco and say your home pub is The Plough & Stars.
I love the Hounds by the way.
Fishmonger, I think I’ve already stated my preferences clearly enough; there’s no need to get personal. To each his own as they say.
Older Scottish members will remember The Joe Gordon Folk Four which featured electric guitar and so on. This was during the late fifties and early sixties.
You could also even describe Lonnie Donnegan as Folk Rock although it was generally described as skiffle.
Therefore, Folk Rock is anything but new……..
Mind you, calling it “Folk Rock” is stretching things quite a bit
🙂
http://youtube.com/watch?v=g-LHV1P6s9I&feature=related
The San Francisco psychedelic sound from the 60s was basically Folk Rock, but the Celtic Rock bands around here are hardly part of that movement and can’t even be categorized the same way. Jerry Garcia was a capable bluegrass player and proved it when he recorded Old and in the Way. Folk and bluegrass were at the root of what he did with The Grateful Dead, but he wasn’t just playing bluegrass melodies with a rock band back up the way Celtic Rock bands play trad melodies with rock back up.
The thing about trad melodies is their power and beauty, but what gives it the power and beauty is the depth of the musician’s understanding. A lot of people are seduced into putting together Celtic Rock bands to compensate for the lack of understanding and ability providing a false sense of power. In other words, they can’t drive the music based on its own strength so they add drums, bass and electric guitars instead.
Having said that, when musicians that understand trad and have the ability to deliver it the way Jerry Garcia could deliver the roots of his music form a “Celtic Rock” band – it’s quite remarkable. Moving Hearts is a good example of this, and in the area of fusion Cool Fin and Deiseal would be good examples. But most of the “Celtic Rock” bands, particularly local ones I’ve seen seem to be doing what I was trying to describe in the previous paragraph.
“Celtic Rock bands around here are hardly part of that movement and can’t even be categorized the same way.”
I agree but the modern “Celtic rock” bands are still sort of descended form this movement indirectly.
For instance, early Fairport Convention in the UK were directly influenced by this early “West Coast” music but went on to feature mainly music from The Irish Isles 🙂 including Scottish, English and ..of course Irish. This, in turn, many other folk rock bands during the seventies from England, Scotland, Ireland and beyond..people like Horslips, Five Hand Reel and so on who have already been mentioned here alomg with all the other inferior outfits which we disdain..
Sorry, about the clumsy sentence here… I’m obviously not including Horslips and FHR among the “inferior outfits”.
I remember hearing Fairport Convention back in the late 60s and enjoying the unique flavor incorporated into the basic genre I was listening to at the time. But I’m not familiar enough with these groups to know if they were using the local “Celtic Rock” formula of playing watered down trad melodies with rock back up.
Yea… I wish this forum had an edit feature. For example, I’m not proud of this sentence: “Having said that, when musicians that understand trad and have the ability to deliver it the way Jerry Garcia could deliver the roots of his music form a “Celtic Rock” band – it’s quite remarkable.”
What I was trying to say is that when musicians form a “Celtic Rock” band who understand trad and have the ability to deliver it the way Jerry Garcia could deliver the roots of his music– it’s quite remarkable.
I’m not saying that the modern “CR” bands are much like them either, now…..not in the same league, obviously… but you can trace things back to there.
We have these types of inferior bands here too, of course.
Do they dress up like Mad Max meets the Middle Ages too?
Some do and some don’t…..
Here’s one hellish example
http://www.myspace.com/theclanwallace
but there’s many more
Here’s another lot
http://beggarsrowfolkband.tripod.com/
but we’re getting a visit from one of your bands (From the US) who are doing a Scottish tour.
http://www.highlandreign.com/index.cfm
Can’t wait. 🙁
Lord help us.
Snobbery is not becoming.
I guess I’m just gonna have to get over all the ego driven nonsense I’m reading here. I’ve heard (read) rips on a lot of my favorite bands. What takes the cake is rips on Lunasa. Probably the best trad band since The Bothy Band. That’s gotta be nothing more than jealousy.
Its seems many just want to define ITM as something very strict that can be put into a little box with the individual right in the center. As if they were the only one qualified to judge it and play it.
Rubish. Music is for everyone. And it was meant to be reinterpreted.
There’s nothing wrong with having preferences, but personally, I think it’s a mistake to dismiss an entire “genre” of music out of hand.
For me, bands like Flogging Molly and Great Big Sea and Black 47 and Dropkick Murphys get my feet tapping every bit as much as a great ITM session.
I don’t think I’d want to attend a festival that had only pure drop ITM or only “Celtic Rock”, but a mix is always lots of fun….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JePJNCrxpcY
People, I am not critising any celtic rock band in particular.I think however that I should be more acceptive that traditional music has to incorporat different styles to stay alive and to get more interest in the music from younger generations.To everyone his own I just dont particularly enjoy this particular type of traditional music,.However I do very much respect others interest in it
I’m certainly not criticizing Lunasa, but I don’t consider them as playing “Celtic Rock.” Far from it actually. There you have ITM virtuosos who are extremely well heeled in trad. They have invented their own corner of the genre to play in and I think they’re brilliant.
What amazes me to no end is how Celtic Rock bands in this area have the audacity to compare themselves to brilliant bands like Lunasa when their sound doesn’t compare in the slightest; why do they feel they need to declare such rubbish? I know one band that does that and there’s absolutely nothing about their music that even comes close to the genius and virtuosity of Lunasa. And then they have the clueless followers who will echo the declaration as though it was fact. It makes me want to sit down with these people and compare the recordings with them and say, “OK… please show me where you think they sound at all alike.”
It’s as if someone published a Celtic Rock marketing scheme that said: First learn a few Irish melodies, but don’t bother to really take the time to gain any real depth or understanding of the music genre because you won’t need it if you form a Celtic Rock band. Just bash away regardless of style and play to an audience who isn’t educated or very familiar with ITM… if at all. (College crowds work well.) Tell them you’re a cross between one of the world’s top Irish bands and some other famous rowdy pop band, add drums and electric instruments, (optional,) dress in costumes and declare yourself as the “best band” of whatever town or city you’re playing in.
I’m always amazed how successful this formula is, but I don’t consider the result as anything resembling ITM. I don’t begrudge these people either, and I’m happy for their success and glad they’re having such a good time. The only thing I resent is when they misrepresent what they’re doing as ITM or compare themselves to virtuosos like Lunasa when they clearly aren’t. As I said, I don’t begrudge them, and it’s no big deal, but it would be nice if they were just a little more honest about what they’re doing.
I don’t know anything about Drop Kicks and those groups, but they appear to be American versions of the Pogues. Would that be right?
Horslips contained some great trad musicians, but they were a rock band who introduced say a rock song “Dearg Domn” with O’Neill’s march on lead guitar and such, and in those days it was brilliant, and still is. Fairport with Richard Thompson playing jigs and reels note for note on the electric guitar, with fine trad musicians alongside, were great as well.
Lunasa are a trad group, a bit jazzed up like Flook and others, but a trad group. And there is nothing wrong with jazzing it up. Someone mentioned “Moving Hearts” earlier, a great sound. And I always liked Clannad, who actually did do Jazz like arrangements, such as “NIl sin La” with with all those “Jazz” type solos in the middle.
Continuity patrol:
https://thesession.org/discussions/16996
My beef:
https://thesession.org/discussions/16996#comment353354
Here’s what it means in America, in relation to music, and it’s already been beaten to death above, but here goes.
Shlocky nonsense of two flavors:
1. For the auld ones: Heavy on the synthesizers and soft lighting ala “Celtic Women”
2. For the young ones: Heavy on the rock and roll with barely a hint of anything else ala “Flogging Molly”.
So there you go. That’s why I resist the monicker. The last thing I want when I show up to a gig is a buncha old folks expecting me to prance around with mood lighting and synthesizers in flowing white duds.
I think to some extent this discussion is comparing apples and oranges. Bands like Flogging Molly, Dropkick Murphys, et al., are generally doing songs, not tunes. They are therefore much more accurately described as amped up versions of the Dubliners or Clancy Brothers than ITM (as commonly defined on this site; i.e. tunes). Whether you like the electrified version or not, it is not really fair to compare them to Lunasa or Solas, who are accomplished tune players. Now whether their fans are able to tell the difference or not is another question . . . .
Oh, and Mr. Bliss, to answer your question, Dropkick Murphys, while surely inspired to some extent or another by the Pogues, are much more about loud electric guitars with some Irish bits added (to my ears).
What about Celtic Rap?
They could use all of those big drums as seen on National TV on the Celtic Women without accompaniment. Record, and play it back full volume with 1000 watt amplifiers stuck in a small car.
Maybe even an amplified bodhran?
Just been in to YouTube to view the Dropkicks. Well known stuff, Finnegan’s Wake et al, they sound like the Pogues before going into rock group bits, unrelated to,the song. For “The Workers Song” a video opf the group, who clearly do want to be a rock group, they have all the actions, but musically they are not very good, as a rock group. I expect they can make a comfortable living doing what they do. My son could enhance them in the morning, and probably enjoy himself, and the money.
Doing Athenry and such, well if I was away for the weekend and ran into them I would probably enjoy bits of it. And I did enjoy the Pogues, although I always swore they were a rip off of an English folk group I played in, lead singers bad teeth and all. We however did tunes and such as well, but the Pogues did have a very good song writer in their midst.
But Horslips and Fairport were top class groups
The other reason to avoid the use of the term is the expectation of rock like that, reason #2.
I loved the Pogues back then, still fond of them. They, and these groups today, are ‘gateway’ drugs if you will to the pure drop of the ‘harder stuff’, or at least that’s how it was with me. I suppose they have their merits then.
You know I would like to know what johnny J does, he can spew out all sorts of reviews and negative comments about bands but if you look he dabbles in different instruments. Every band he so rudely mentioned has many more paying gigs according to their schedules so what does he do? Get a life Johnny J
“ Every band he so rudely mentioned has many more paying gigs ”
So, this is what is important? This is what defines good Irish music(or any other). Paying gigs?
I agree with Allissa… to a certain extent.
There are, as always, exceptions to the rule.
There is a band called Hedgeschool which I quite like and then the original, the one, the only……
THE Horselips. Flippin great band. oh yeah.
Johnny J
And are you the end all to end all who defines what good Irish music or scottish music is? Paying gigs means they are being paid to perform unlike you. I know your type you play at sessions and complain about a little note that someone might have missed and then you go home on your little computer and cut down everybody to make yourself feel better because your life sucks!
I don’t know how you can assume that I don’t play paid gigs on the strength of what I’ve written on my resume.
As a matter of fact you are right but it’s my own choice not to join a band and seek paid gigs. There’s plenty of opportunities but I prefer to play informally as do many others here. I am of an age when I have no urge to seek fame, fortune, and adulation. Nor do I have any financial necessity do so.
Of course, many members on this site also perform in bands/solo in paid situations as well as in sessions. That’s their choice too. They’ll also have their own views about what constitutes good Scottish and Irish music. Some might even agree with you! 😛
As for “cutting people down”, I’m sure most people here(if they are being honest) will agree that I’m probably one of the most easy going contributors here with very mild and considered views.
Sometimes, I slip up though and indulge in a bit of mischief. So, sorry if I touched a nerve.
1745 …The Battle of Culloden, wasn’t it? 🙂
You are up to mischief right enough Johnny J, you well know Culloden was 46 not 45. I have to admit though that I find it a bit odd that an American band are coming to Scotland to play quite cliched Scottish music. Not their fault of course as they haven’t spent their lives hearing pub singers perform them week in week out. Nothing wrong with these songs except when they are all played in the same set. Good luck to them though.
Leave Johnny J alone.
Some of the fans of Celtic rock bands do indeed know the difference. A lot don’t. And to be honest, I did think the first Hounds cd sounded like a cross between Lunasa and the Pogues. But when their piper left, that kinda went away. I still love ’em but I’d like to see the piper back in the band.
Trad
Lunasa
Solas
Dervish
Not Trad - (Irish Pub Song Rock Bands)
Dropkick Murphy’s
Flogging Molly
Trainwreck
Black 47
The first track on the latest Dervish album is a cover of the Cher hit ‘Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves’!
Hey Bogman,
I went to Highland Reign’s site and yes they play some Scottish regulars but not all. And unlike Johnny J says they are pretty good. Guitar, ok, mandolin, ok , bodhran, ok, voices, ok. What more do you people want a 30 piece orchestra.
If I’m hard on Johnny J it’s because I believe I’ve seen his handy work on other forums and is nothing but negative. Apparently he doesn’t work for the Scotland tourism department. Culloden is 1746, duh
Fishmonger, honestly… that’s a stretch, even with the piper they were a far cry from sounding like Lunasa. Just because you have pipes in the band doesn’t make it sound like Lunasa. Please provide mp3s of the track(s) you think give them the grounds to claim they sound like Lunasa.
If a band plays music that sounds good to me, I don’t bother with what genre its. I do not restict myself just because its called “Celtic Rock”…or “World Music” ….or anything.
You only have tio listen to the samples on Highland Reigns website/ social network site to appreciate they fall into the ‘sing, take the money and run’ category.
Getting lots of paid work is no indicator of quality. Ask any prostitute.
You people on these forums are unbelievable. You are the Greater than thou critique on everything musical? First of all Highland Reign describes themselves as being a Celtic band, not a tune or session band. Yes I listened to their samples and what it is is obviously celtic. It sounds upbeat and fun to me and obviously to many other people. And Douglas there is other types and styles of music besides the old boring lilting crap you probably listen to. And you know getting paid gigs is an indicator of quality, you think people would want to pay money for a band if it’s awful. Loosen up and start opening up your mind. And as far as the prostiute goes I don’t think the Governor of New York State USA would agree with you.
Highland Reign can describe themselves as whatever they choose; the samples speak for themselves. Perhaps you, highland1745, might care to offer a definition of Celtic band.
Their intolerant attitude towards any less than gushing tribute is evidenced by the red pencil activity on their guest book.
Mr. Douglas Inch
A definition of a celtic band is playing music of the celtic nations whether it’s original or traditional, what is your definition? And I don’t know of any band’s website would let knuckleheads like you leave negative comments on their own website! duh!
You’ll be telling us next that you fancy the guy with the rather dubious ’tache.
Okay Douglas, I don’t think they are that bad but don’t go that far.
Don’t take my word for it. Play the samples. Pure, unadulterated keech.
Douglas , Sir
I have listened to the samples and they are not keech. What is your problem. Again not everyone can be soft and mellow and like the flowery stuff. Some people like to be entertained. I have seen these guys perform before and they are fun and everyone likes them. But I’m sure they and many bands are below your royal standard of celtic music and I’m sure you are the leading celtic musician with all knowledge to come out since Burns. Please! This is the arrogance I’m talking about.
Yeah, I did notice Dervish recorded ‘Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves’. Not trad to be sure. But hey, it was a better version than Cher’s!
As for the Hounds 1st album, I haven’t found any MP3s of it online. And I don’t want to post them. It’s their music. Besides, we’d be beating a dead horse. And I came here to learn & make friends not adversaries.
Take care
Chris
I’m not looking to making adversaries either, fishmonger -- I’m just hoping for a little more honesty as far as these sorts of outrageous promotional claims go. If you honestly think their first album sounds like Lunasa you have every right to believe what you want. I’m not knocking their recording, but it’s nowhere near the level of what Lunasa is doing. I still say the claim is a backbreaking stretch regardless of what recording of theirs you’re referring to.
Entertained is it highland 1745? You don’t half talk some pish.
