the word, ‘celtic’

the word, ‘celtic’

i keep seeing and hearing rants about how awful the concept of ‘celtic music’ is, and i need to comment. i came up in a town with a very strong irtrad session scene, for a little place in the midwest US, and there is probably the normal amount of purist zeal to be found. i love irish, which is the bulk of my repertoire. but i love scots music too. and i’m nuts for music of the maritimes, which has all sorts of stuff in it. so when people ask me what i play, i say ‘celtic’. or i say irish. and scottish. and northumbrian and maritime, and quebecois and breton and, well you get the picture. you can guess that i don’t have much of any regional style. you will tell me that scottish music and irish music have different styles, come from different histories — but donegal sounds more like western highlands than kerry, no? you will say that the repertoires are different, and i will show you a list as long as your arm of crossover tunes. they crossed over with the people, who move continually between those places. i have a friend who despises scots music, but plays ‘tarbolton lodge’ to raise the dead (i’m afraid to tell her!). these genres are not identical, but they vary wildly within themselves, and have so much in common with each other that if they aren’t identical, they are surely immediate family. there, i’ve said my piece. come and get me, suckas. i play celtic music.

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LOL right on!

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OK, Tina,

Rising to your challenge.

Name one musician in Ireland who has demonstratively stated, above all else, that s/he plays ‘celtic music’.

I rest my case.

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personally i think the whole concept of trying to keep seperate scottish and irish music is a bit fake.

it seems more about maintaing some kind of tourist brand identity than anything else.

ie: irish music is for pubs and having a laugh.
scottish music is for lamentations and marches.

but it makes good marketing sense to have two well defined products to sell.
rather than trying to sell a concept of some kind of weird organic tradtion that transcends religion, race and class…thats a bit heavy for people.

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We’ve done this one before, though it’s a lively one. Living in England, I have no problem with the overall moniker "Celtic music" to cover the usual suspects; and people in mid USA giving the one label to the music of remote countries and provinces are being no more unreasonable in doing so than people here are talking about Indian music, Arabic music or Balkan music: these names at least locate the provenance of the music and give a very rough idea - often a cliched idea, it must be admitted - of what to expect, even though they don’t spell out the variety of music in each area.

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Celtic Music is a name that has been used by a not very nice fellow in the north of England for his company, which seems to specialise in buying the rights to wonderful recordings and then refusing to release them ever again. Another good reason for avoiding this awful, new-agey, wishy-washy, Enya-esque term.

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As I’ve said elsewhere, I hate the word ‘Celtic’, particularly when applied to a supposed musical genre, largely because it seems to signify some sort of romantic, Americanised mush. It’s the sort of noise that I can only imagine people *say* they like because, for some obscure reason, they think they *ought* to like it.

Having said which, these things change over time. My mother was Cornish, and would proudly tell me I was ‘a Celt’. This was because she came from a generation when Cornish people were still struggling to maintain some sort of identity separate from the English just over the Tamar. Nowadays, as far as I can see when I go down there, the only people who bother about such things are the English blow-ins who, of course, are far more virulent about such things than the Cornish ever were, hospitable Celts that they were.

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… ooh … didn’t see you there, Steve. 😉

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D.B. still walking this earth? I wonder if those recordings groan in the night.

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I don’t particularly dislike the use of the word "Celtic", it just seems a bit redundant when there are already two perfectly good words, "Scottish" and "Irish", to justify our cause.

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mac, your case rests well. i can’t think of a noel hill recording that doesn’t have a strathspey on it. and he’s a pretty nationalistic guy. tommy peoples tells us that reels originated in scotland, and he plays lots of scots tunes. i heard a scottish pipe band on youtube doing a bunch of jigs that were, as far as i know quite irish. the big wall is a lie. i might even call it a pernicious lie. i prefer the inclusiveness of the term — it is more useful to me.

and as for the cliche, i have a paddy’s day t-shirt with the irish music thing; you know, the jigging leprechaun with a big mug o’beer and a green topper. any of this stuff can be misused.

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Um, and what about the Welsh? And the Cornish? And the Breton? Manx? etc etc

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Each of the words does a perfectly good job on their own - why do we need a catchall term?
LAZINESS if you ask me!

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I wouldn’t encourage the further misuse/abuse of the "c word". It has its place, mostly in the study of archaeology, linguistics, and history. Outside of that it’s meaningless, especially when talking about music.

Re: breton, manx, cornish, and welsh

What about them?

Re: breton, manx, cornish and welsh

The first can sometimes be argued not to be music.

The second and third are still being invented.

The fourth is English music garrotted and hung out on a harp to achieve a dessicated refinement unknown to its original state.

Enlighten me, devotees.

Re: breton, manx, cornish and welsh

Agree somewhat with the last three, nicholas, but how can you argue Breton not to be music??

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Actually I’ve heard brilliant Breton and Welsh music - just to cover my tracks - but I’ve yet to hear a note of Cornish or Manx.

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Probably a bad experience hearing a very drunk Breton whistle-player in 1977.

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I was gonna say….Breton music is totally different from anything else I’ve ever heard, they have their own set of instruments and dances and everything.
But "Celtic"? Hell no!

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Actually, the only one I know much about is Welsh music. It has at least two (oh, and there’s penillion as well, so that’s at least three) distinct and well nigh separate traditions. They are both (all) alive and … well enough, at least in pockets.

Go to the right places and Welsh music is knockout gorgeous and unique.

As you know, of course.

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I think I’ve got over it.

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Dammit, nicholas! You got in with your snivelling back-tracking before I had a chance to properly castigate you!

🙂

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Oooh! now you’ve done it again.

🙁

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Anyway, as for that last post of yours …

I shall inhale that remark.

[sniff]

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As all these kinds of music have their own idiosyncracies and merits, why unite them all under one word?

Doesn’t it do the same damage as referring to people as diverse as Berber and Zulu "African"?

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One thing most of these places have in common is that plenty of musos go to and fro between them, not to mention huge troops of festival-goers.

( You hear of Bretons who are expert players of Irish or maybe Scottish music, but I wonder how many Irish or Brits have dived into Breton music in as big a way.)

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Harm? Don’t be rediculous. It’s only a bloody word. It doesn’t bugger up the tunes, it doesn’t make you practice less, it doesn’t do anything other than tell someone that it’s diddle. Hang-ups, hang-ups - get over it.

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Hmm .. i’d be with you on your main point there, bogman, if it weren’t for that comment "it doesn’t do anything other than tell someone that it’s diddle". ‘Cos that, for a start, excludes a lot of Welsh music, which really isn’t "diddle". It has its own, uniquely lyrical qualities - probably more akin to a lot of the older Irish music *before* all this diddley stuff took over.

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Another problem with using the word "celtic" is that it tends to perpetuate the mistaken myth that the peoples concerned are actually descended from the tribes referred to sometimes in historical works as Celts.

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the correct over-arching term for the music of these various countries is, of course, "country music"

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Perhaps "World" Music?

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Or maybe "Galactic Music"?

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The reason I avoid the term is because it’s used as a catchall label for people who are ripping off music from that region of the world. I can’t tell you how many times people say their playing or hearing "Celtic music" and it’s turns out to be nothing more than a rock band with bits of Irish melodies taped here and there, or people who never bothered to learn traditional music and claim they’re doing "Celtic fusion." *gag*

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The latest and most respected genetic studies carried out in the British Isles are by Prof. Bryan Sykes…..

"Two published books - The Blood of the Isles by Bryan Sykes and The Origins of the British: a Genetic Detective Story by Stephen Oppenheimer - are based upon recent genetic studies, and show that the majority of Britons have ancestors from the Iberian Peninsula, as a result of a series of migrations that took place during the Mesolithic and, to a lesser extent, the Neolithic eras.[14][15]
Sykes says that the maternal and paternal origin of the British and Irish are different, with the former going back to Palaeolithic and Mesolithic times. He identifies close matches between the maternal clans of Iberia and those of the western half of the Isles. Once in the Isles the maternal lines mutated and diversified. He sees little genetic evidence relating to people from the heartland of the Hallstatt and La Tene cultures. On the paternal side he finds that the "Oisin" (R1b) clan is in the majority which has strong affinities to Iberia, with no evidence of a large scale arrival from Central Europe. He considers that the genetic structure of Britain and Ireland is "Celtic":
“ if by this we mean descent from people who were here before the Romans and who spoke a Celtic language. ”
—Bryan Sykes"

Celtic is a relatively modern word to describe an affiliated group of people. Irish is a relatively new word to describe an group of people. 80% of Irish carry the ‘celtic’ gene. Maybe you’re not Celtic as it is an invented name, but then again you’re not Irish either 😉

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It is pronounced Sell Tic in Scotland.

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Yeah, what’s it gotta do with sectarian soccer?

Posted .

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Well sorry to ruin the parade but here’s something that might once and for all abolish the term ‘Celtic Music’ when we’re talking about Irish music. Apparently we’re not actually Celts but the Scots are!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-199009.html

Posted .

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oops misread it, the Scots aren’t Celts either, but they are linked to us in some way.

I know, instead of calling it ‘Celtic Music’ which now appears to be an invalid term, why not just call it ‘music’ and let the journalists and record companies worry about labelling it.

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I have no real problem with the generic term of Celtic music but boy I get sick and tired of Welsh music being consigned to the sidelines when it is discussed. The Welsh have a proud Celtic history and a huge musical heritage. Yet somehow it is not PC to include this aspect of Celtic music in the broad discussion. Not only is this technically incorrect it broadly offensive and incredibly tiresome,

The Irish and Scots have a long and proud heritage of fighting oppression and allowing their music to shine through, but this is not exclusive. In Wales there is a living testimony to the beauty of Welsh tradition at Eisteddfod and na at the rising abundance of twmpath throughout the country.

If you ignore Welsh music and call yourself a Celtic musician you are doing an injustice to the music, the tradition and the proud history of the Celts.

D

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That article was published in 2004 and is a bit outdated. It contradicts itself as the first statement makes out there was such a ‘tribe’ as the Celts and focus’s on the fact that there was no invation by the ’Celts’……

”THE long-held belief that Ireland’s population is descended from the Celts has been disproved by geneticists, who have concluded that they never invaded Ireland.
The research at Trinity College Dublin (TCD) into the origins of Ireland’s population found no substantial evidence of the Celts in Irish DNA, and concludes they never settled here en masse.”

That because it has since been proved that what we know as the Celts is a genetic group originating in Spain and Portugal who migrated over thousands of years, not a tribe or clan. As the article points out here…..

“The primary genetic legacy of Ireland seems to have come from people from Spain and Portugal after the last ice age,” said McEvoy. “They seem to have come up along the coast through western Europe and arrived in Ireland, Scotland and Wales. It’s not due to something that happened 2,500 years ago with Celts. “We have a very old genetic legacy.”

The reality is that Celtic is a term now used to describe the genetic group most of us here share. You can call the group Diddlers or maybe Paddyjockytaffs or something but a word can’t change who you are.

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The problem with the word "Celtic" is that most people who use it don’t know enough that they can differentiate Irish from Scottish or Cape Breton or Welsh or whatever other kind of music you’re talking about. Go to any of the classical music sites and you’ll see violinists and flute players talk about how they want to play "Celtic" music, and they have no idea of the style, they pick up a book somewhere and play a jig and they’re happy. Which is fine for them, but hurts the tradition(s). It’s much better to encourage people at every step to learn about the differences so that they can get as close to an authentic sound as possible. "Celtic" is a very harmful word in this respect.

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The main problem IMO with the word "celtic" music is that this term is often used in reference to new age types of music that use some shadings of Irish or Scotish musical influences. I kind of like the term "trad" which seems to me pretty well includes all of the tune traditions usually played at sessions without watering down the specific sense of the type of music being played.

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Let’s get one thing absolutely clear. There is no such thing as a "celtic gene." Arguments about what proportion of the Irish, or anyone else, have "celtic DNA" are utterly bogus. Jeez, there were probably no such people as "Celts" anyway.

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oh yeah, that too. Celtic Woman and all that. Ick.

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I kind of go with your argument, kennedy, but I’m baulking at the term ‘authentic’. Could you expand on what you mean?

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Steve, you’re right that there were no such people as the Celts, that has long since been agreed. But Geneticists now refer to the gene prevalent here as the "celtic gene" That is absolutely clear.

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Names of the Celts

The origin of the various names used since classical times for the people known today as the Celts is obscure and has been controversial. In particular, there is no record of the term ‘Celt’ being used in connection with the inhabitants of Ireland and Britain prior to the 18th century.

The Latin name Celtus (pl. Celti or Celtae; Greek Κέλτης pl. Κέλται or Κελτός pl. Κελτοί, Keltai or Keltoi) seems to be based on a native Celtic ethnic name.[3]

The first literary reference to the Celtic people, as Κελτοί (Κeltoi), is by the Greek historian Hecataeus of Miletus in 517 BC; he says that the town of Massilia (Marseille) is near the Celts and also mentions a Celtic town of Nyrex (possibly Noreia in Austria). Herodotus seems to locate the Keltoi at the source of the Danube and/or in Iberia, but the passage is unclear.

The English word Celt is modern, attested from 1707 in the writings of Edward Lhuyd whose work, along with that of other late 17th century scholars, brought academic attention to the languages and history of these early inhabitants of Great Britain.[4]

English "Gaul(s)" and Latin Gallus or Galli might be from an originally Celtic ethnic or tribal name, perhaps borrowed into Latin during the early 400s BC Celtic expansions into Italy. Its root may be the Common Celtic *galno, meaning ‘power’ or ‘strength’. The Greek Galatai seems to be based on the same root, borrowed directly from the same hypothetical Celtic source which gave us Galli (the suffix -atai is simply an ethnic name indicator). (see Galatia in Anatolia)

The English form Gaul comes from the French Gaule and Gaulois, which is the traditional rendering of Latin Gallia and Gallus, -icus respectively. However, the diphthong au points to a different origin, namely a Romance adaptation of the Germanic *Walha-. (see Gaul: Name) The English word ‘Welsh’ originates from word wælisc, the Anglo-Saxon form of walhiska-, the Germanic word for "foreign".[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celt

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I’m interested to hear that if folk think the word Celtic is damaging because it describes different styles all in one, then is it equally damaging to Baroque, Symphonic music etc all as Classical? Should all that we know as classical actually be more accurately described? Or maybe if someone only has a small interest in classical they can just use their ears to decide what they like.

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Authentic, meaning having the characteristics of the style. You’re not going to play rolls in a strathspey, for example. You want to sound as close as you can to the musicians who exemplify the style—-just because there are tunes that span over both the Scottish and Irish traditions doesn’t mean that they’re played the same way in both places. Irish musicians *tend* to play more fluidly, with a certain lilt, and Scottish musicians *tend* to play with a stronger, more staccato feel. I’m generalizing, of course, but after you listen to music from both traditions, it’s pretty easy to tell one from the other. Tommy Peoples plays plenty of strathspeys, for example, but it would be absurd to call him a "Celtic" musicians—-he sounds quite Irish to my ears, and I can certainly tell the difference between him and a Scottish fiddler.

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"Κέλτης pl. Κέλται or Κελτός pl. Κελτοί"

Sorry… it’s all Greek to me. 😏

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"Classical" doesn’t denote an ethnicity or geographical region. Maybe the term "folk" would be a better comparison.

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"is it equally damaging to Baroque, Symphonic music etc all as Classical?"

Maybe not damaging, but certainly not helpful, especially if you’re trying to cultivate a taste for classical music, it really helps to know if you prefer Baroque or Romantic or Modern, so that you can further refine your preferences and find more of what you like. I’ve even been going to operas lately and have discovered that I prefer Bel Canto opera, which is more melodic than some of the other styles—-so now I know what to look for the next time I buy tickets to a production.

It’s always a good thing to be discriminating, in the sense that we can tell one thing from another. And when you have enough of an appreciation of something, it’s fun to go back and look at the similarities as well.

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Phantom Button, do I detect an element of the wind-up in your use of the "f word" (two posts above)? Why can we not be really original and use the "t" word, as in Irish Traditional Music, Scottish Traditional Music, Welsh Traditional Music and even English Traditional Music, as they seem to be just about as Celtic as the rest of us in this archipelago. I think the last bit’s Greek.

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I agree with you Kennedy, but what if you aren’t trying to cultivate a taste for classical music.? Why would you want to know all the sub-genres then?
I also agree that few if any Irish or Scottish musicians call themselves celtic. I don’t think of any of the players I know or myself as celtic, but I won’t lose any sleep if anybody else does.

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bogman, I think it’s important to try to know a little of what you’re talking about before you dismiss an entire genre of music as something you don’t like. Let’s take American country music, for example. Lots of people make fun of it and will laugh and tell you they can’t stand the stuff. But it doesn’t all sound the same (recognize that concept? 🙂 ). Take someone like that and play some classic Hank Williams or Johnny Cash or Patsy Cline for them, and they might just make an exception, and be more open to the idea that they might like *some* country after all. Or maybe not—-but at least they made an effort, which is the best we can do.

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Bogman: the ‘celtic’ "gene".

???

On which chromosome does this "gene" reside?
Has the gene been sequenced?
What does it code for?
Or are you referring to some little scrap of mitochondrial DNA that has almost facetiously been termed the so-called celtic gene?

Anyway the Celtic term referring to the music is just a marketing ploy dreamed up by some clever ad executive, to lump it all together so it becomes more accessible to the buying public - and it works - look at the suckers here who defend the term thinking it’s real, or feign apathy and make out it’s irrelevant.

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I have mixed feelings about the word ‘celtic’. IMO, it has become a cliched, ubiqutious, and way too general a word when it comes to this style of music. Then on the other hand, I enjoy many different styles of this music (irish, scottish, english, ect.) so I find it easier to say "I like to play/ listen to Celtic music", rather than to list all the styles I like. Oddly enough, I have the word as part of my username. 😛
But what REALLY drives me nuts is when I hear people pronouncing it "seltic" instead of "keltic".


Sara

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You just beat me to it there, Danny. Bogman is a fine fellow in every regard save his knowledge of genetics, of which he has none to speak of.

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in

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it’s

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Genres have been abstracted (or perhaps better branded) by the people who provide us with the product for a long time. Denim jeans are often called Levis even if they aren’t made by Levi Strauss (ah, but those Wranglers aren’t real Levis now are they? 😉 . Over the past 20+ years music has been branded the same way. "Celtic" is a catch all brand. If you produce a CD of ITM and it get placed into iTunes it will either be classified as "Folk," "Celtic," or "Alternative." Perhaps "Other?" There’s no "ITM" in the list. What are you going to do? Not offer your music through iTunes?? I would argue that "Celtic" is fine because it’s at least in the ballpark—easy descriptors like "Levis" or "Celtic music" simplifies communication. "Celtic" is a descriptor, plain and simple. All the ethnic stuff is just babble to most people who, while wearing their fave pair of "Levis," hear a lively jig and say to their friend "I just LOVE Celtic music! Don’t you?"

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Indeed, gx, "celtic" is a meta-term. For anyone going in-depth, like most folks on this board, the word is near meaningless, fluff.

Where’s Lorenna McKenna when you need here? She’d straighten this whole thing out.

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Thanks for clarifying your use of ‘authentic’, kennedy. I had feared you were using it in a more restrictive sense …

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I’m half Welsh and half Scottish.What does that make me?

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Wottish.

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I’m sure he’s a good lad. Maybe I over-reacted to the bandying about of the word "gene".
It’s not got a lot to do with whether or not you like all the various national musics pigeonholed into the ternm celtic. But nowadays it includes Gallego and Asturian music, which, although I love most of that, has in my view less to do with Irish or Scottish music than does English music, from which Irish and Scottish musics borrowed heavily (and vice versa, but that’s not what’s under discussion.)

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Scwelsh?

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Celtic lass.. the pronunciation thing is only a matter of demographics.

People in Scotland say sell-tic

People here (Ireland) say keltic

Niether is wrong.

Dont let it annoy you.

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KML, I am obviously refering to the Mitochondrial DNA through the mother. The leading geneticists seem pretty happy with this. Also from wiki…..

Oppenheimer’s theory is that the modern day people of Wales, Ireland and Cornwall are mainly descended from Iberians who did not speak a Celtic language. In Origins of the British (2006), Stephen Oppenheimer states (pages 375 and 378):
“ By far the majority of male gene types in Britain and Ireland derive from Iberia (modern Spain and Portugal), ranging from a low of 59% in Fakenham, Norfolk to highs of 96% in Llangefni, north Wales and 93% Castlerea, Ireland. On average only 30% of gene types in England derive from north-west Europe. Even without dating the earlier waves of north-west European immigration, this invalidates the Anglo-Saxon wipeout theory…
…75-95% of Britain and Ireland (genetic) matches derive from Iberia…Ireland, coastal Wales, and central and west-coast Scotland are almost entirely made up from Iberian founders, while the rest of the non-English parts of Britain and Ireland have similarly high rates. England has rather lower rates of Iberian types with marked heterogeneity, but no English sample has less than 58% of Iberian samples…

Steve, I certainly don’t claim to be an expert in genetics but it is you that is woefully ignorant in the subject. The smallest investigation would show I’m quoting from leading geneticists. The little I know comes largely from the leading genologist Bryan Sykes being our guitarists neighbour. I find the subject very interesting as he has concentrated his studies on the origins of people in my area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Sykes

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Celtic Lass, Session Savage,
Just to confuse you further, people in Scotland use both "Seltic" and "Keltic", although the intuitive pronunciation would be with a soft "c", since it’s followed by an "e". However, the "Seltic" form has been hijacked by an illustrious football team so people do tend to use "Keltic" if they want to appear correct/posh/intellectual. Beware, using the terms "hard c" and "soft c" can be misinterpreted in Scotland among the less correct/posh/intellectual! By the way, "kelt" is also the word for a spent (spawned?) salmon but I’ve been called worse.

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People in scotland only say "sel-tic" when they’re referring to one half of the poisonous sectarian-millionaire monolith that unfortunately dominates the scottish football scene.

Otherwise they say "Kel-tic" like everyone else.

- Chris

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Also, people who say selltic are a bit slow

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To make matters worse, Orkney and Shetland music, which you could argue was "Nordic", usually gets lumped into the "Celtic" bin. Although twice recently I have passed off Bob Wills’ "Faded Love" as a "traditional Shetland tune" with nary a murmur of dissent from the learned listeners.

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Yes "Seltic " is a football team. "Music for A Found Harmonium" has become a "Celtic" tune too.

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Can’t we call it "folk music" and be done with it? *ducks*

My itunes classifies quite a lot of my Irish/Scottish music as reggae. Go figure.

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Chris (Ramblingpitchfork),
When I read your post, I thought a bit (painful, that) and realised that the Celtic pronunciation fashion probably has changed since the 50s/60s, when I was "growing up" in what some might have thought was an ultra-Celtic part of Scotland (no, not Parkhead Stadium). "Everybody" then used to say "Seltic" in all contexts. I did a quick search on the internet and, sure enough, there are mentions of the fashion changing since the 60s/70s. Some interesting stuff there - some academic, some on Wikipedia. I have to admit that I still have to make a conscious effort to say "Keltic" in the case of (say) "Celtic Cross" or "Celtic jewellery" or I know there’s a risk I’m going to get a funny look. On the other hand, I still hear plenty of people in Scotland using "Seltic" for things other than football teams. What a ramble - well, the title of this thread was "The word, Celtic", so there’s no need to mention music, is there?

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Boggers, old chap, to be able to discuss genes it helps if you know what a gene is. Patently, you do not. Whilst not claiming to be a world expert, I do have a degree in biological sciences. Whilst this confers absolutely no authority on me whatever to speak extensively about genetics, it does at least qualify me to see that you don’t know what genes are, or "gene types, " or all that other twaddle you came out with. Regards to Brian (who isn’t a "genologist" because there’s no such thing).

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I’m not wearing genes today… got my slacks on instead.

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I tend to call what i play (irish, scottish, northumbrian, english, breton, central french, scandinavian, spanish and italian) as ‘european trad’, but i usually get a blank look and then the comment ‘oh, you mean selltick music, like riverdance’……

Re: the word, ‘celtic’

Here’s what it means in America, in relation to music, and it’s already been beaten to death above, but here goes.

Shlocky nonsense of two flavors:

1. For the auld ones: Heavy on the synthesizers and soft lighting ala "Celtic Women"

2. For the young ones: Heavy on the rock and roll with barely a hint of anything else ala "Flogging Molly".

So there you go. That’s why I resist the monicker. The last thing I want when I show up to a gig is a buncha old folks expecting me to prance around with mood lighting and synthesizers in flowing white duds.

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…or a buncha kids expecting me to get up and shreek "I’ll Tell Me Ma" Speed Metal-Thrash Punk style.

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what about shrieking "I’ll Tell Me Ma" with mood lighting and synthesizers in flowing white duds? I could just about see it working. "Thrashtrance"
Maybe we could revise the old P-Celt and Q-Celt linguistic groups to S-Celt and K-Celt, with SYcove wibbling between the two

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Bren
Are you now trying to start a linguistic discussion on the relative merits of wibbling and wobbling?!

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Anyway, if you are Scotland over the next week or so, look out for(Beware of) this lot!

http://www.highlandreign.com

Better get those dates marked in your diary folks!

"Friday, March 28, 2008 10:00 pm
WHISTLEBINKIES MUSIC BAR
EDINBURGH, SCOTLAND, UK (MAP)
10-10:45,11-11:45, We are proud to be able to play at Edinburgh leading venue for Folk music, Other musicians will be starting the night!!

Saturday, March 29, 2008
HOOTANANNY’S SCOTTISH CEILIDH BAR
INVERNESS, SCOTLAND, U.K. (MAP)
TIMES T.B.A We are very excited about playing at one of Scotland’s most famous music venues! Let’s rock the Highland’s!!!

Tuesday, April 1, 2008 7:00 pm
LEITH FOLK CLUB-Benefit concert for FORT COMMUNITY WING MUSIC GROUP FOR YOUNG PEOPLE
The Village, EDINBURGH, Scotland, UK (MAP)
TIMES t.b.a THIS IS A BENEFIT FOR Fort Community Wing Music Group for Young People. (This organization buys instruments and pays music tuition for underpriviledged children) Hey this is a great folk club in Edinburgh!! The folk club is Tuesdays at the THE VILLAGE! Let’s show the old country our style of Scottish American Folk music!! There will be an opening act for us and then we will do two 45 minutes shows!!!

Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:00 pm
LAURIE’S ACOUSTIC MUSIC BAR
GLASGOW, SCOTLAND, U.K (MAP)
TIMES t.b.a This is Glasgow’s #1 place for folk music! Cy Laurie is the owner and also a folk singer himself, maybe he can jam with us a bit!! "

There’s also the opportunity to go on tour with them!!!!
http://goprimetours.com/ScotlandHighlandReign.htm

Re: the word, ‘celtic’

Yeah, this is kind of how people classify several musical styles as "County Music" here in the states…you play bluegrass, old-time, traditional ballads, etc. and some folks want to lump it all together. ..sigh. And yes, the genres they put some music in are absolutely nuts. Remember, some folks are happy to be uninformed.

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I get the impression "Celtic music" as a malign and invasive GM mutation of Celtic trad is particularly a lurid transatlantic phenomenon, like hurricanes and drugs made out of cactus. I don’t notice it over here, but then I lead a sheltered existence. But it has to be said that pretty high-profile ITM artists like Enya and the O’Dhomhnaills did a lot to kick off the New Age version of it.

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I think Bren’s onto something here…

New Age Celtic Thrash Metal Hip Hop Jazz Fusion!

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"From the heartland of America comes the next wave of Celtic pride…"

As long as they don’t build an illegal settlement.

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Oh, my…they live only six hours or so from me…I am frightened.

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I mean, Highland Reign.

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They smile. I mean, I’ve never seen a real Highlander smile. But I am of little brain and my experience of life is small.

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Highland Reign…. with an Irish flag underneath the "who are we" segment…… brilliant 🙂

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I avoid the term ‘celtic’, because of it’s aforementioned association in the USA with overblown romanticism, new agey quasi-/pseudo-Irish stuff, and imagery from Lucky Charms commercials. I want people to understand that there are numerous different celtic musics and appreciate those styles, rather than lumping everything together with Celtic Woman and Riverdance. When I was teaching a world music class for children, I played then recordings of ‘celtic’ music — Irish, Scottish, Cape Breton, Breton, and Galician — to make the point that it’s not all the same and that the catch-all term catches a lot more than they might realize. I think it’s really different for someone who has grown up and lived their lives in a celtic culture to talk about celtic music or celtic whatever, than for uniformed Americans to to around talking about celtic music, because they don’t know any better.

I have recently encountered people referring to music as celtic to be inclusive of other traditions, which I think makes sense on a certain level, but I think I would still rather cultivate in my fellow Americans a better appreciation for the particular traditions, rather than lumping them together.

On the other hand, I am studying ethnomusicology, so I might just be a puffed-up academic idiot.

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Go figure.

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Ethnomusicology? Puffed-up academic idiot?

Hot damn Jason, you’ve come to the right place. Pull up a stool and grab a pint. Fancy a tune?

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Boo-yah! Let me get the fiddle…

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No point getting involved in the discussion if you can simply slag someone off for a spelling error, eh Steve. Do you have anything factual to contribute?

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If I did it would be a darn sight more accurate than your "factual" contributions. And it wasn’t a spelling mistake - you made up a new word! 😀 Anyway, it’s more a discussion calling for opinions, I would have thought. I’ve given mine already.

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100 posts on this thread! How ‘bout dat?
No shortage of opinions around here. LOL

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thank you all; i believe i’ve gotten my 2 cents worth back manyfold.

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Enya an ‘ITM artist’? Oh, dearie, me!

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You paid 2 cents for this??!!?

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You know I have seen Highland Reign and they are a great band I don’t understand how some of you can be so negative about fellow musicians. I know they play many festivals and are successful in the Festival circuit.

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Good one Dafydd, I liked your Scwelsh discription of yourself. It’s a pity you have no Dutch in you could be Scwelch.

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Come on then Steve, why don’t you hit us with some of your "darn sight more accurate" "factual" contributions . My contributions were quotes from leading geneticists (spelling OK for you?) Or do you know better than them because of your biology degree?

Re: the word, ‘celtic’

Bogman, you may glean from a previous contribution of mine that I am aware of investigations using mitochondrial DNA:
https://thesession.org/discussions/1127#comment17525
However, I feel the use of the term "celtic gene" to be inappropriate on two counts:
If, as you imply, you are referring to some gene which is resident in the mitochondrion, you must remember that mitochondria are no more than bacteria existing within our cells in a symbiotic fashion, acting as metabolic powerhouses breaking down ATP and so on. As they posses only a small fragment of single-stranded DNA should this be considered part of the human genome? Or more appropriately, should they be regarded as proprietors of this so-called Celtic gene? Admittedly mitochondrial DNA provides a good marker for such matrilineal tracing but surely not as the source of this gene per se?
And so for my second count I will reiterate: my question, albeit rhetorical, still remains. What is the nature of this celtic gene? What does it code for? Is it expressed in the neocortex? Is it a behavioural gene which sets the celtic phenotype apart from other human phenotypes? And so on.

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Sorry, breaking down sugars to produce ATP

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You seem entirely correct to me, KML. But Bogman can be forgiven for making the very common error that we see almost every day, in the newspapers and other media. The idea that there is a simple direct connection between ‘a single gene’ and ‘a characteristic’ is nonsense and has never been proposed by reputable biologists or geneticists. But however often that is repeated, the popular belief remains entrenched that there is ’ a homosexuality gene’, ‘an obesity gene’, ‘an intelligence gene’, etc.

What I’d like to know is, who were those Iberian people that moved north ? Where had they come from originally ?

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Cheers, Danny. 😉 I could tackle you on one or two points there but I have no desire to pile facetiousness on facetiousness. Boggers, your extensive and statistics-laden quote from Stephen Oppenheimer (whoever he is) is just rubbish. It assumes a standpoint of great authority, yet abuses genetic terminology in a most risible fashion. Much of it is completely meaningless. Anyone with a modest biology CSE grade and a studious attitude could pick it to pieces in seconds. Biology degree not needed. Read better books.

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As I say KML, I am only quoting the experts. As you admit above the mitochondrial DNA is a relatively successful method of tracing ancestral lines, through mutations in the maternal line or so I’m told. I agree that the word celtic is probably inappropriate to describe people with a common ancestry going back thousands of years but they have to call it something.

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Another thing, while I’m at it - because there is less chance of repairing breakages, mitochondrial DNA is subject to a level of mutagenisis about ten times that of nuclear DNA. This must create enormous problems for those performing these investigations - how can they be sure they are tracing the "right" genes and so on.
Wolf, I didn’t read all of this but did bogman actually ever say there was "Celtic" phenotypic expression for which a putative gene might be responsible?

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Well Stevers, if Bryan Sykes, professor of Human Genetics at Oxford University cannot assume a standpoint of great authority then who can?

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Tackle away Steve, and don’t worry you NEVER ever sound facetious here.

Boinngg!!

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Can’t be arsed, old chap. I’m closing ranks with you on this one whether you like it or not. I’m knackered with bronchitis and I’m off to me sack.

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Did you know that "facetious" is one of the only two words in the English language that contains each vowel once only and in the right order? I could tell you the other but I’ll abstain from doing so. I’m in an abstemious mood all round.

Re: the word, ‘celtic’

That is interesting sycove (about three or four feet earlier on this page). I’m 40 and have lived in scotland all my life. I haven’t come across the "seltic" pronounciation outside of football. I cam remember in 2nd year high school history coming first coming across the word "celtic" in a non-football sense and we all assumed it would be pronounced like the football team as we’d never seen it in any other context. But since then I’ve only ever heard it with the hard "k" outside of football.

I guess the word is more commonly used nowadays than it was when I was a child, through celtic connections & celtic jewelery etc. But probably still most Scottish children would expect the soft "c" through familiarity with the football team. I’d really expect most scottish adults to use a hard "k" unless they hadn’t seen the word in a non-football context before.

- Chris

Re: the word, ‘celtic’

maybe it should be pronounced Skeltic in Skotland to avoid any further confusion

🙂

Get well soon Steve, but you have a round about way of expressing solidarity 🙂 and duuh, is the other word abstemious?

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Chris (Ramblingpitchfork)

I think we’re both right. So you’re a mere stripling of 40! I was around during the critical previous 20 years, when C/K Celtic usage was obviously changing. (Have a look at a couple of quotes below and there’s a lot of other stuff if you do a search on “celtic pronunciation”.) Worryingly, I maybe hadn’t noticed how far the C/K balance had changed but that’s probably an age thing too! It’s interesting how language evolves. In fact, I am totally stoked to think how cool (indeed, wicked) it is. Awesome, innit?
The infallible Wikipedia: “Until the mid-20th century, Celtic was usually pronounced with /s/ in English except by academics, but the pronunciation with /k/ has been gaining ground rapidly. Following the usage of philologists, /k/ is now almost invariably used with reference to Celtic languages even in non-academic contexts. It is also the more popular pronunciation when talking about most other aspects of Celtic culture. However /s/ remains the only recognised pronunciation of the word when it occurs in the names of sports teams; as these are proper names, the traditional pronunciation is entrenched.”
Medieval History site: “The reason the Boston Celtics and Glasgow Celtic and all those other sports teams founded around 1900 (give or take a couple of decades) pronounce their names \SELL-tick[s]\ is not because they were founded by ignorant folk who didn’t know any better, but because they spoke English and DID know the proper pronunciation of the English word "Celtic". The end result is that "Celtic" *ought* to be pronounced \SELL-tick\, but because so many pronounce it \KELL-tick\, that is also *a* correct pronunciation. I know quite eminent professors in Scotland who pronounce it \SELL-tick\. I know others of equal stature who pronounce it \KELL-tick\. I don’t recommend anyone try to tell any from either group they are wrong.”

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So how long will it be before the denizens at Parkhead will be pronouncing it Keltic?

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Not before Hell freezes over, an event which may be to the advantage of many of the denizens of both Parkhead and Ibrox!

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Yes indeed…. but at least we may console ourselves they’ll suffer a sub-zero eternal damnation as their continued dominance is forever to the detriment of the rest of Scottish football.

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Billy Connolly once said that he thought all through his boyhood that his local team’s name was Partick Nil.

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Is there still a Hamilton Academicals? Now there’s a name to put the fear of God into the opposition! 😀

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And Billy also once remarked that he thought Dunfermline was an ointment … which reminds me of his joke about the Germoline salesman. It was two hours between first mentioning it and hitting the punchline on the first occasion I saw him live.

Steve, the Accies are still in existence and top of the IRN-BRU SFL (their capitals, not mine) as I write.

Has there ever been a better team name than Irthlingborough Diamonds?

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