Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

I have been throwing this around in my head like raw dough for ages, and it is well fermented sourdough, but it needs some seasoning from elsewhere, your contributions, on and off topic of course. While I love the open doors of the digital world, I also see the need for screens. I really don’t want every bluebottle or blood sucker coming through my windows and doors. But what has this got to do with learning ITM? It’s all bloody DOTS!!! They’re pixels, they’re pixelated, they’re DOTS!!! It has limits, it is compressed. What is being offered is Dimensionally challenged, DIM, weak, limited, vague, in that they can not substitute for the one-to-one, face-to-face sharing and passing on of knowledge and skill. These are little digests, mini-vids, 2-dimensional, usually no bigger than your palm, and the quality is generally pretty poor. The same is true of the audio. The graphics are drastically reduced from millions of colours to a couple of hundred for the convenience of a quick internet, compressed. The sound is similarly put through compression, reducing it to the smallest acceptable file size. Things are lost in that processing. Then we have to consider the SUM of it all. Is it just video, is there text to explain and warn of limitations, to direct the neophyte to other sources ~ like LIVING ones?

I decided to review a number of tutors designed to pass on ‘tradition’ via print and accompanying recording. I also checked out some Videos and DVDs. On the whole, these proved to be better in almost every way than what I find scattered across the Internet. Yes, there are some good sites, such as Ryan Duns whistle vids, which I don’t have much other than praise for, but a lot of what I have stumbled across online is awful. I’m sure the intentions were generous, but I won’t go so far as to say ‘honourable’. There are bad players with poor technique teaching badly played tunes. There are some nice things too. But much of it makes me wince, knowing how hard it is to reteach, retrain someone who has taken on some bizarre way of playing, or thinking about this music. I wish and want, personally, for people to be able to enjoy this lovely stuff till they drop. I’ve actually known a few who have done just that, dropped in the middle of a tune… I wouldn’t mind going that way, though I wouldn’t want it to be a bother to anyone, or to bring things to a halt. πŸ˜‰ If you are taught badly, or choose to just depend on such imperfect media sources, whether in print or online, you risk developing tensions and bad habits that could interfere with your enjoyment of this tradition somewhere down the line. That bothers me. If I were to trap some Leprauchaun and be given a few wishes, confined to our concerns here ~ I’d wish that everyone was given the best start in answer to their curiosity and passions, the best start learning anything.

I know and have seen bad teaching, it can destroy passion, it can cripple.

So, given the limitations of the media, what must it have to do the best job it can? How best do we avoid bad teaching given there isn’t a direct link. In most cases you just watch and copy. What elements must be included in such detached teaching, sharing? Some would say that this medium is only good for sharing tunes, not for learning technique, that the latter is always best learned from and nurtured by a living instructor, not a 2 dimensional mini vid on U-Tube…

So, ideas, how best can this media be used to pass on the traditions? Where does it fail?
Examples of good and bad would be welcome too…with comment of course…trying to be ‘constructive’… 😏

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Maybe I should have titled it "Yo Sushi"? πŸ˜€

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Jayz, Mickray, did you have to put the first link up? I’ve had to go and have a confab with the bullocks in the field opposite in order to calm down (and they completely agree with my sentiments).

Posted by .

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

That’s why I included the second link, to help you get over the first one. ;>}

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

sometimes what’s on the web is tho only material around to teach us… but you need to be careful about what you listen to!

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Hey, that’s my local session! Those are me mates! I didn’t know anyone ever brought a video camera—musta been one of the rare dates I couldn’t be there….

Sigh…always great to share a tune in the snug with those lasses….

Posted .

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

I especially like the comment that it’s "medieval style"

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Hmmm. Always the high road, eh?

So many double entendres, and so little time…. :>)

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

The comments on the first video are revealing - by people who do not appear to be able (yet) to distinguish between the playing on that video and that of Randle Bays.
And did anyone notice that _both_ those videos had 4 stars? Now what does that say about YouTube?

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Of course, seeing that, I now realize how overdressed I’ve been. Gotta find me a slinky, shimmery little tube dress for session nights….

Posted .

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

in all seriousness, I agree with ceolachan, there’s a lot of junk out there and in fact I think it’s mostly junk. I hope that people who are genuinely interested can tell the difference, but I am not so sure they can, as it seems like the people who should have the most credibility routinely get shot down by the barely-beyond-newbies eager to share their discoveries/shortcuts/etc with as much air of authority as they can muster.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

The really bizarre thing about that first video is that it says it’s a *teaching* video. How in the world does that guy get the idea that he should be teaching people?

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

kennedy, it’s called "denial."

Ever seen/heard some of the people who wait all day to audition for those Pop Idol TV shows? Same thing.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

I’m also in denial, mickray. I don’t pay attention to those pop idol tv shows, so they don’t really exist. πŸ™‚

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

I’ve never been much attracted to on-line courses or tutorials for the simple reason that they are not interactive. Perhaps this is their greatest, most fundamental flaw.

I’ve been separated from the living tradition now for five years, but I did learn enough before then to be able to make out the difference between "good" and "bad" habits. For any of us that play fiddle (I can’t speak for any other instrumentists), there is the danger of learning bad habits, as it has a very direct impact on our physionomy. For some time I had to see a kinesiotherapist for a few massage sessions to get my back and right arm back into shape… I guess it depends how much time you spend playing though.

A handful of excellent players showed me what and how they played, I could ask questions directly, and get the answers just as soon as I asked.

However a book I unfortunately left in Montreal when I moved to France was "De la nature du violon : le violon nous enseigne" (MontrΓ©al 1989) by Jean Cousineau, which gave many answers to questions anybody playing our instrument might ask, regardless of the classical/traditional divide. Starting from the point that the fiddle itself was, to begin with, ergonomically made to suit a certain stance and application of techniques. This work goes on to show the most efficient ways of achieving the playing level and style desired by the player.

I just wish my mum could find it in my stocked stuff and send it to me…

All in all though, I don’t think there’s such a thing as an instrument’s "gospel" or "truth" to be found anywhere other than in the reality of playing with someone that knows what they’re doing. Explanations on-line are monologues that come from the tutor’s own understanding of the instrument and cannot encompass all the questions that might spring from questionning students. Case and point, my wee student often asks me questions I would never have thought of myself.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Nice one Fanning…points well made…

Mickray, the two U-Tube vids by comparison ~ choice examples!

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Why I write ‘U-Tube’ instead of ‘You-Tube’ ~ let’s just say I have basic plumbing experience… 😎

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

What a great idea - starting with the instrument and working out what sort of playing might suit the physicalilty of the instrument’s design. I like - and agree - with your point Fanning, that’s there’s no absolute truth.

The whole "interactive" thing really grates with me: years ago, when online stuff was "new", the words "interactive" was used all the time to sell the idea that online was where things were going to be at, when actually (as you mention) online stuff is almost never interactive, never a 2-way relationship in the way "real life" is.

My own experience with online (and any other medium, for that matter) is that people also confuse "information" with "learning" - two very different things. And information is only one take on something, it’s "one truth", not "the truth".

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

I know a couple of people who are doing the web cam fiddle lessons with James Kelly. It seems to work well—live streaming video exchanges of tunes and talk. At least that’s an option for folks who live far away from any decent teachers.

Posted .

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Everything said about the internet as whole can also be distilled down to just this site. The vast majority of it is ignorance. The trick is to decipher it.

Posted .

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Each of us has our own physionomy, and this has to be taken into account. I’m a tall skinny pike (6’2") with a long neck and no ability to deal with a chin-rest, which means that my shoulder-rest has to jack up the fiddle way up to my jaw.

My student is nine years old and small for her age (about four feet), forcing me to adapt everything I know to her own physical standards right off the bat (but she’s imitating me regarding the chin-rest, regardless of my warnings).

Indeed there is no "one truth", only what is functional on a case per case adaptation of ergonomics, which leaves the teacher guessing what is best suited to the student. This has given me much pause in the exercise of teaching, let me tell you.

Interactivity only exists when all parties have the possibility of discussing directly with the source of knowledge.

The internet and books are great for getting the greater lines of thought and technique, but fail miserably as soon as any thought has to be put into an answer, which pretty much begins right from the start of any serious endeavour.

Once again, I’ll repeat myself here; any non-interactive teaching has the fundamental flaw wherein it cannot deal with questions that might arise from someone that asks a question the teacher never even thought of.

I must add here however, that teaching has taught me one thing : From the start, I must have learned thrice what my student has, and I find it a blessing.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Of the Joys …
There’s always lots of negatives but on the positive side:

Being able to read, watch and listen .. over and over again .. without fear that the tutor will get weary of your repetition.

Being able to search for different versions of a song or tune and in many cases (e.g. Youtube) being able to "see" the style of play ..

Having the choice to choose what YOU want and not what someone thinks you should want - even if that may not be the best choice - it’s yours!

But for me - it’s the repetition - I find this very valuable as a learning tool. πŸ™‚

I believe most people learn music to enjoy it - not to become so brilliant they disappear up their own backside. It must be great to become that good - but for me it’s enjoyment that is important. I’m always grateful to someone who’ll share his or her knowledge - even if I choose not to follow their advice.
Happy Easter all. πŸ™‚

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

I do appreciate what has already been said - if someone is shown a bad or wrong technique initially it is hard to eradicate bad habits.
πŸ™‚

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Digital tutelage is also useful when you’ve been underpaid and/or unemployed for far too long.

Lessons cost $$$$$$$$

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

A year+ ago I went into a shop to inquire about lessons. After hearing the cost I said "OK, how about twice a month?"
They said "Twice a week is appropriate for a beginner."
"I can’t afford that." I said.
I got a dirty look from them from that day on. Especially when I went in there to buy sheet music. I don’t go to that shop much anymore. They made me feel like I p*ssed in their corn flakes.


Obviously the two fiddle videos are different. One is for absolute beginners who don’t know one end of a bow from the other, the other is of someone who is not teaching but just performing and someone had a video camera available to record it. Yes it sounds much better but to a beginner that’s not the point.
If a person already knows how to play fiddle, the first is of no use.
If a person needs to know what fingers go on what string and roughly where, then the second is of no use… until later.

I can watch Donough Hennesy all freakin day and learn very little. But if I watch an instructional video that breaks down every chord and strum or pick then progress is made.

You have to keep in mind who is doing the learning, what level they’re playing at and what their budget is.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

I’ve looked at a lot of guitar tutorials on the web but one guy stands out above the rest. His name is Justin Sandercoe.
http://www.justinguitar.com

He also has a wealth of videos on YouTube. Here are two examples of his lessons for fingerstyle guitar. No it isn’t ITM.
Fingerstyle #1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW9IbxIlFuo

Fingerstyle #2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgn7le-1QFc


Here’s an example of how he teaches how to play a song. In this case, Pink Floyd’s "Wish you were here"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJw4hMjlRYw


As I said before, he doesn’t teach ITM. <b>But he’s a great guitar teacher.</b>

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

fishmonger - you may be right. However, my take on it is that breaking things down into some sort of rote mechanical learning is not beneficial in the long term.

Imagine someone learning to swim. They can paddle all they like in a paddling pool, but one day they have to swim where they are beyond their depth. I think they should start out only just within their depth and actually *do* it.

Same for the little kiddie wheels on a bike. You have the illusion that the kid is cycling and that it’s easier than learning to ride a bike. But it only makes actually learning to ride a bike all that more difficult.

Same applies to learning music. If all you want out of life is the recent craze of "I want immediate satisfaction" and your musical aim is to pretend to play music, by all means, learn where your fingers go when and stuff. Otherwise, I’m sorry you have to suck it up: find tunes that are within your reach, learn what sound your instrument makes when and very quickly you will put your fingers where they need to go.

(although, obviously, placing of fingers and the correct mechanics of finger placing is important - rolls, fingerings and such, but a tune doesn’t consist of a sequence of places you need to place your fingers)

Posted by .

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

The most useful learning tool i’ve found is theAmazing Slowdowner. Using it I can listen to all my favourite players and tunes and hear every note and build up slowly til i’ve learned the the tune and ornamentation. I agree though that in the main the lack of interaction online is a major flaw to good learning habits.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

…. and the whole thing goes round and round in a never ending cycle of advice, recommendation and self gratification. With no quality control anywhere.

for example:
"Having the choice to choose what YOU want and not what someone thinks you should want - even if that may not be the best choice - it’s yours!"

So what happens, especially with diddley music, is someone who knows nothing about it gets some advice from someone else who knows nothing about it and away they go in their self satisfied ignorance. And come to places like this and filter out everything except what they want to hear. And delude themselves into thinking they are learning tunes from this database. And delude themselves into thinking they can understand it by watching 1 minute of someone recorded on a mobile phone.

Posted .

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Balance, I love it. Nice one jamascc. I was hoping for both sides of the issue to be voiced, though I do realize my initial contribution may have leaned more toward the perils, as does my general inclination with regards to this.

Good playing, technique, teaching ~ is inspirational. The contrary is depressing, if not initialy, eventaully… No good comes from the bad example, except by example… There was nothing inspirational about that first video, worse that you were given the dots and the equivalent to a bouncing ball for additional useless distraction. It was dull, lifeless and plodding, and badly filmed as well as badly played. And with regards to the second example ~ Randal Bays also teaches, workshops and privately…

Fish: "~ that breaks down every chord and strum or pick then progress is made."

‘Progress’ in what respect? ~ like mechanically following the dots? These offerings (‘online’) of breaking it up and slowing it down aren’t of much use if the technique sucks and they are mechanical and lifeless… Copying bad or lifeless technique will eventually bring grief not ‘music’, especially for an inexperienced beginner taking what’s given as gospel… Bad teaching regularly leads to people giving up, losing their passion for it. While sometimes the seed of interest might be the result of a shallow interest that wouldn’t have lasted long anyway, it isn’t always. Sometimes it is the method of delivery, teaching, that is at fault in damaging passion and confidence. That is obvious in the pain I’ve seen some people express when driven to abandon their dream to make music…

& ~ Timo: "~ breaking things down into some sort of rote mechanical learning is not beneficial in the long term."
~ something more is needed, especially where a ‘good beginning’ is hoped for…

Fish: "Having the choice to choose what YOU want and not what someone thinks you should want - even if that may not be the best choice - it’s yours!"
(* nice contribution toward balance, by the way, and toward generating more! πŸ˜‰)

Making the wrong choices, as a beginner, can be what determines in the long run your future with this music, with any music, or whether you will have a future in it. ‘Wrong choices’ can be almost impossible to unlodge and correct. Re-educating taught and practiced ignorance is far more painful than taking the time and effort to do it right from the start. Rather than a lottery, that would be best done by going to sources that have proven an ability and understanding for the music, rather than any Tommy, Sean, Mary or Mairaid… It isn’t about YOU and ME, it is about this thing we share a passion for, this MUSIC…and for me, it is, as said, wanting people to get the best first start possible, one not laced with future problems and strychnine (sensory overdose). It is best to avoid the potentially poisonous in favour of informed nurturing…

That is part of the question, how to know the difference, and, if we are to develop and use these online resources, how best to present these and to use them with the least potential damage to the health of music making. It may be that these media are not the best way to start, are even the worst place to turn for a beginner. Those who have actually found print, the commercially produced lesson books with recordings, the DVDs, are at least tested first. No self-respecing publisher would give time, effort and money toward producing the work of most of those who are found online. Maybe that is part of their reason for these people turning to ‘display’ their undiscovered talents this way, they fancy themselves as capable, but they haven’t the proofs musician or teacher to back up getting accepted by a reputable publisher.

I would suggest, if you are a beginner and lacking local resources ~ don’t start online. Get a recommended DVD and/or book and CD, by a known musician, better if it is someone whose playing you like. These, having as I’d said at the start reviewed some of them, are tons better than the general mass of options I’ve ever seen online. And yes, you can play them over and over again. Matt Cranitch has done this, though I’m still awaiting the DVD. He has done his time, has my respect, can play, knows his stuff… If you really can’t make a workshop or find a decent teacher to get guidance from, or a local mate, if you really are that limited, then these in-hands sources are far better than taking risks with the two-dimensions and compression of it all here in the digital quagmire… 😎

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Llig, good point about going around in (uneducated) circles. A good teacher would be able to work out what you like and help you achieve that, and add guidance when they feel it’s helpful.

The opposite of what you describe is for me just as bad - to have a load of standards that prescribe what you should / shouldn’t do, and some sort of exam system. That’s great for "fossilized" music but I’m not so sure about something that’s essentially always changing.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

It may be, that video is the wrong way for online content, that if the main reason is to ‘share and learn a tune’, that the distraction of a bad video is counter productive, that in most cases, as happens with much of what Comhaltas has to offer, it is just audio? And then, what is best, the single instrument, my personal preference, or as with the session recordings of Comhaltas, the session sound, group playing? I think the later especially suffers from the digital compression standard with online audio….but ways both do, solo less than ensemble….

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Good point Mark, once regularly raised onsite here… ‘standardization’ / ‘fossilization’… What’s the cure? 😏

‘one regularly’ ~

I am tired and shot from the battle of germs… The previous video/audio question should have ended ~ "~ is it ‘best’ just audio?" ~ that the video is an unnecessary distraction? ~ of little use?

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Ceolachan - maybe the cure is what we’re doing here - talking about the music - as well as what we do when we play it with others in sessions. It seems a pretty healthy way of establishing what’s being done in the name of the music, and how it relates to what went before. Probably if it gets to the point where we only either play and don’t talk about it, or talk about it without actually playing any of it, it’s gone wrong somewhere.

I realise, reflecting on what I wrote in my first sentence, that nowhere have I said anything about "online". Maybe *this* online forum is as interactive as it needs to get, balanced by actually playing the stuff, of course.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Fishmonger, you couldn’t be more wrong about what beginners need to learn how to play. That guy in the video can’t teach how to play well because he doesn’t play well himself. He’s BADLY out of tune, his thumb is all the way over (and probably muffling) the G string, and you can’t even tell what he’s doing with the bow because they don’t show his right hand. About the only thing he does right is he gets a consistent tone. If you’re a beginner who doesn’t know one end of the bow from the other, you’re not going to learn anything at all from watching that video.

You don’t learn to play fiddle by watching where on the strings some other fiddler puts his fingers. You begin by learning how to hold the thing properly, how to land on the strings properly, how to do clean string crossings, how to produce a good tone—-and none of that even involves Irish music. There is a guy on the internet who does a fine job of teaching the basics, and that’s Todd Ehle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZR_vx0Ghfc&feature=related


Unfortunately, there doesn’t seem to be anyone on the internet who plays Irish fiddle who compares to Ehle in terms of actually teaching the style—-the different tune types, the rhythms, the ornaments, the bow techniques, etc. I’ve heard that the Kevin Burke dvds are good for intermediate level players, and that Matt Cranitch has a good book/cd set for beginners, but those aren’t free. I look at it this way—-learning fiddle is an investment. You have to buy a fiddle and a bow. You have to budget for strings and rehairs and general maintenance. You should budget as much as possible for lessons, if you’re lucky enough to find someone who is a good teacher. Beginners need the best resources possible.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

ceolachan
I can remember when you had to take an old
tape recorder to sessions / Fleadhs,, in order
to collect new tunes , The Internet has very much
given young ones and older alike that advantage.
But I learnt more about the actual playing of the
tune from Watching the old and new guys around
my age there - AT sessions / Fleadhs etc,
Videos are only in a small way this..Yes use abc’s whatever to get yourself a tune you cant get anywhere else.

But theres no subsitute for 1st One to one..2nd
a sessions / Fleadhs etc, 3rd a LIVE recording
of the person playing the tune,, And very last-
lp’s, cd’s, and the like,,
ie/ - Studio made up Recording’s.

Just my Thoughts on Learning ITM, Right.Nowadays.
jim,,,

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Beginners absolutely need teachers, especially with the fiddle. I can’t imagine trying to learn the basics by yourself, how to hold the bow, proper posture, but then again, who needs that, right? It’s fiddle music.

Seriously though, scary stuff out there. There is no substitute for playing the music with live people, either a teacher or friends in sessions, or both. I had years of classical training as a child so when I wanted to pick it back up to study Irish, I had the basic technique drilled into my subconscious. However, all the most vital learning I did was in sessions with friends I met locally already playing the music. You can hear Planxty play it, you can download the ABC, you can look at the dots, and it all goes out the window when you plunk yourself down with others to play it.

Unless they all learned it from that same CD, in which case…

No, really, if you don’t have access to live people who at the very least want to study the music WITH you then that’s a problem. That’s a necessity, really. Videos are just recordings. Training your listening while playing, ‘having’ a tune with others, how the music sounds, lives and breathes ‘live’, and all those other wonderful things, are vital to one’s understanding of the music.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

I agree. The operative word is "Vital". If you are not "training your listening while playing, ‘having’ a tune with others," then you have an insurmountable handicap. I know that people with this handicap will come on and chastise me for saying there is no hope for them, but really, that is the truth of it. Without one to one, it’s hopeless.

Posted .

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Well, I agree that listening (to yourself and others) while playing is a "vital" part of becoming a musician. But I think it can be learned, even by people who really struggle with it.

I’ve had students who were totally unaware of how much they did not hear. In contrast, most people cringe at their own sloppy intonation, rhythm, etc. But some people seem deaf to those elements, and to finer details. In those cases, I’ve resorted to calling their attention to each element and teaching them how to listen. For intonation, for example, you can teach people how to hear the beats between two pitches that are slightly off, slowing the beats until they match. This can be a painfully slow process for some, but in 34 years of teaching music, I’ve had only one student who was truly unable to progress (his was an inability to make any sense whatsoever of rhythm, and, looking back on it, I suspect he had some sort of physiological defect in his brain—some failure of neurotransmitters perhaps).

At these desperate levels of needing to be taught, it’s certainly been my experience that one-on-one help from a good teacher (with loads of woodshedding by the student) is the only way to work through the problem.

Posted .

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Well, I’m not a fiddle player. I was merely trying to relate my own approach to learning to play guitar to the two videos posted.

Did anybody actually look at the guitar instructional videos I posted? They are actually quite good. He is a professional, performing musician and has instuctional DVDs as well.

You have to learn to play an instrument before you learn to diddle-aye-dee-doe. As evidence I submit what your reaction would be if I went to YOUR session to learn.

And the reason I compromise, at times, on musical styles (rock instead of ITM) is so I can learn with other guys in the neighborhood who also need to learn. Not so I can "sell-out" so to speak and form a celtic rock band before I learn to play within the tradition. I’m 42, going bald and gettin’ fat. I’m not about to become a "rock star".

Yeah… you’re right llig, maybe I should just quit. After all there is no hope for me. I should just give my Martin to the grade school, stop listening to music and get back to my fishing.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
What a bunch of sh*te!
See you at your local session, someday.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Kennedy, I agree with all you’ve said about Todd Ehle’s excellent teaching video. It’s probably about as good as you can get without live face-to-face teaching. I must see some more of his videos.
BTW, I got the strong impression that Ehle may be a Suzuki teacher. My teacher is Suzuki-taught (by the Master himself, as it happens), and her approach and Ehle’s are very similar.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Yep. Todd Ehle and Ryan Duns. Those are the only decent ones I’ve seen. Everything else (that I’ve seen, at any rate) is likely to lead learners into bad habits.

Posted by .

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

I would hope any beginner, anyone trying to learn anything, ITM in particular, would not be discouraged by those who say "there is only one way to learn this stuff, and it’s this way." Or " If you don’t do this and this, there is no hope." People learn in all kinds of different ways. Visually, orally, tactilely, from recordings, dots, videos, etc. Anyone with an open mind knows that.

If you’re starting out and you encounter someone telling you "there’s no hope unless it’s one to one," just walk the other way quickly.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

There’s a lot of worryingly dubious information out on You-Tube, particularly with regard to people claiming to offer instruction on playing traditional music. One of my favourite examples of high-grade misinformation and ignorance was the comments relating to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKS8bB-dVv4


Technical skill, particularly amongst fiddlers, is a really interesting subject. If you look at the old Shetland fiddlers, they didn’t every really use the fourth finger, and would often play "neutral" thirds (i.e. the second finger somewhere between the first and third), and often held the fiddle along the arm. If you listen to the recordings of Scot-Skinner, his bowing is distinctly rough and scratchy. So, arguably, there’s no need for a classical style technique.

However, what enabled the old fiddlers to play like this and sound good was that they’d been exposed to the tunes and the playing style for years, since birth. Hence, they weren’t learning the tunes, they were just learning how to get the tunes out of their heads and onto the fiddle. And this was before the proliferation of equally tempered instruments.

The problem that often is encountered today is the maxim that "folk music is for everyone." Ostensibly its an agreeable statement, but the meaning of this statement has got lost over time. Years ago, most people involved in traditional music were involved in an observational sense, in the form of dancing etc. These days, most people who are interested in trad. are involved in a participatory, playing sense.

This often manifests itself in a lack of appreciation that a basic level of proficiency must be attained in isolation before you can start playing with other people…often in the form of guitarists, bodhran players etc who turn up at sessions with only the most basic of understanding of their instrument and the idea that they’re going to be welcomed, no matter what….

Back to the matter of teaching, I agree that 1:1 teaching is the best, however its also a matter of the pupil’s attitude. I actually think that things like AmazingSlowDowner can be an issue - I spent years playing the guitar before I started playing tunes and one of the first ones I learnt was The Mathematician, which took me bloody ages to learn and I’d have been much better served by learning simpler tunes and getting a better understanding for the guitar as a melody instrument. Things like ASD put fast tunes beyond the skill of the learner within reach and can cause them to miss out on the basics in search of a quick success.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

We’re talking Trad, that’s how it’s good, in the way we’re talking about, whether it’s Llig or Will. It’s got to be brought out to light and inspected, mixed with other people’s music, considered, agonized over. Well, OK, no need to get silly about it, but yes, to a degree if it’s going to be good then it’s got to be sweated over a bit. Like it or not, those in your locality or on the planet loving and playing the music are the community and their opinions on what ‘it’ should sound like when it sounds good are fairly significant. There’s certainly no consensus, but you can get the general idea, even if you have no local scene. This site comes to mind.

I don’t think we were talking about learning basics. There’s a million videos out there showing you how to hold the bow the right way or whatever your instrument of choice is. I thought we were talking about a step up or two. Polishing, refining, making nice-nice, getting your shine on, etc.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

You’re right Andy, there is no need for a classical style technique, however it truly blows my mind how some of those old fiddlers are still alive and mobile and not in the constant care of chiropractors. πŸ˜‰

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

ayedbl, yes each person brings different strengths to learning. Myself, I’m extremely visual. But a visual approach to learning MUSIC would only hinder me. Music is sound, and until I opened my ears and brain to it (often closing my eyes so I could focus better on the auditory input), I wasn’t a budding musician.

In short, music ***isn’t*** visual (unless you’re synesthetic), it isn’t olfactory, doesn’t involve taste, and the tactile parts, though important, are meaningless if you aren’t listening. If you’re trusting any of those other senses to help make you a better musician, then at best, you’re impeding your own progress.

Telling an aspiring musician to "look" at music is like telling an aspiring painter to listen to paint dry. Yes, it’s possible. But it won’t likely improve your ability.

Posted .

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Hmmm, I’m saddened to think that there is already no point in me continuing to learn and play - I have no one-to-one teacher.

I can see you are right: the one-to-one pupil-teacher relationship is vital to getting the gist of this music. However, that is a sheer luxury for some of us. I live in a place where there are NO TEACHERS WHATSOEVER. There’s a good group of folks who play at the session… but none of them have the time or the inclination to teach.

This leaves me in a quandry - with no teacher do I just give up and take up tiddly winks while listening to tunes on my Mp3 player. Or do I take the bull by the horns and learn what I can using my heart and my ears????

I’ve got huge love and enthusiasm for the music - I’m not going to give up just because there’s noone around to help me in the way you describe. I’m just gonna (deleted) teach myself and glean what I can from the odd festival that comes around.

Enthusiasm and ignorance obviously can cause problems as Ceolachan and others have eloquently described above. This is where those who are established in the music could help out - give guidance to those who need it! The last thing we should do is moan about people who are massively enthusiastic but a little misguided. Their enthusiasm could be a massive strength and asset.

Even if someone plays music badly - isn’t it grand that they actually want to play at all?

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

A teacher doesn’t have to be someone who gives you formal lessons. You can learn shedloads just from listening to good musicians in person, or better yet, playing with them. That’s all the "teaching" many people need, especially on instruments with fewer variables than, say, fiddle or pipes.

The players I first learned from impressed upon me the importance of sharing what you learn, to help others learn and appreciate this music. That attitude is almost as widespread in this music as the tunes themselves. I’m surprised you can’t find a single session player who will help you out. It doesn’t even have to be someone who plays the same instrument.

And your last point is nice, but incomplete. Yes, it’s grand when people want to learn and play this music. But if they can’t get beyond doing it "badly," despite thousands of hours of attentive practicing, then we’re all better off if they keep that noise to themselves and not inflict it on sessions.

Posted .

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Will I agree with a lot of what you have written in the last few posts. I have made the point in other threads that people who are wrecking it for others need to be told so. That could be the spur for them to learn to listen and then learn the music with a greater appreciation/technique etc etc.

Yes indeed - I certainly try as much as I can to learn while I’m at the local session, as you say it’s not all about formal lessons. However the point was made pretty strongly above, and has been made before that if you are coming in at ground level so to speak and you want to ‘get’ the tradition, you should be getting it in detail from a musical role model. I know that if the opportunity was there I’d be into it like a flash, however in my neck of the woods there are no folks willing to do that.

I do appreciate the feedback I get from others at the local session, kind, encouraging and corrective!

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Brown Creeper, it sounds like you’re doing the best you can, with what you have, where you are. That’s what most trad players have done for generations. Some had more access to other players, some didn’t. Good on you for keeping a passion for the music.

Recordings aren’t an ideal source, but think of all the fiddlers in Ireland who spent hundreds of hours poring over every Michael Coleman album when they first arrived from across the Atlantic. In no time, fiddlers from Derry to Cork were emulating his ornamentation and phrasing. You can do far better—there’s no shortage of recordings available, including some great "old" stuff, so you can listen to how certain musicians have evolved over time, or how the players from one region approach the music perhaps differently from players in another region. Study that. Listen, and never stop learning to listen better.

It also sounds like your session mates are, in fact, teaching you and helping you along. In trad music, sometimes that’s all the "role model" you’re going to get. And if they’re good players, it can be enough.

Posted .

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

On a number of occasions I’ve seen an advanced player make time at the end of a session to help a beginner or improver with a few minutes of instruction, or to go over part of a tune. That’s all it may need to correct a problem with fingering, bowing or posture.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Well, perhaps, circumstances being what they are for me at the moment, the present not being the best of life moments, I was going to let this thread pass and listen in, lurk, without a word, but I find myself not being able to let this pass by. Maybe there is a certain amount of hurt or anger I’m nursing here from unrelated, but infringing, matters that requires expressing but anyway, be it as it may, there are positives to the internet for digital tutelage for which I am at the very least exceedingly grateful. The internet is my connection to Irish trad warts and all. I use it for that purpose. Simple. Cungure (spelling???) me up some real live Irish trad and I’d be there with bells on.

Some prior contributors have voiced that the message here is that in isolation from live tutelage/sessions they should just give up … but I think I really only have one thing to say about that and that is that no matter how hopeless OTHER people think of your situation, whether it be geographical, physical, or social isolation, now-a-days if you want to get Irish traditional music you can get it. Simple. Where there’s a will there’s a way.

(Self imposed editing here!!)

So okay, that off my chest, phew!!

Personally I’m bluudy useless, a hopeless case and all kinds of things have gone wrong and almost everything says I should give up … but I can’t and still remain essentially me - so instead I choose to creatively use what tools are available to me in order to get what I want. It may not surfice for the critics, but hey, what is "what I do" to them?

I have been a member here for years and years and thesess has been my connection with the music I love and still want to play. It is a kind of digital tutelage of a sort - highly interactive and at least I’ve learnt a lot about a lot of things from its mustard pages πŸ™‚.

There have been simply wonderful things have come our (meaning all of us here on thesess) way via the auld yellaboard.

For me personally, thesession.org has been a Godsent , eg friendships made, jokes shared, advice gleened, links followed, discoveries made, very interactive, as well as some enormous revelations like these, just using my own two personal shining examples:

… in the link from Session Savage to James Kelly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zb1K5BCtLY8


… and the multiply linked Randall Bays and Tony McManus:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Dr-dxaoz3g


There have also been personal incidents when thesess has seen some devilishly negative (perilous?) happenings, but I choose not to dwell on such incidents, best moved on from, so I won’t bother to link to those.

I haven’t always been way out of it in the "backwaters" of ITM. I’ve paddled, perhaps you’d say dabbled, in the shallows before. (We session.orgers all have hugely diverse pasts, as well as presents - and bright futures too, I hope) and sessions (the modern concept of them at least), contrary to some peoples’ views, are not always all they are cracked up to be. They are a relatively new phenomenon (yes/no?) and they are not necessarily where traditional music HAS to be transmitted. There ARE, such as an array of teachers of many ilks, other options πŸ˜‰ .

For instance, on the internet, I can be selective, and 10 years ago all this digital stuff would not have been available out here in the bush. Now, sorting through undoubted mountains of dross (recognising that this undoubtedly includes my own πŸ˜‰ ), while CD’s, DVD’s, MP3’s, Web sites, Movie clips on YouTube and MySpace, iTunes, eMusic, emails etc etc are not as good as the "real live" experience, they can be an available substitute. What their value is, is in triggering memories of the real real live thing (for me anyway). Of course, if you have experienced the real thing, you can envisage it, hear it, re-live it, remember and recount stories woven around it, even if the real thing is no longer (at the moment) available to you. Yes?

The spellbound audience is there for all to see in the James Kelly clip, beautiful stuff. I am blown away at being able to see and hear this clip although it was in the past, in Ireland, and I never would have had the opportunity to experience this particular performance in the live context … yet, there it is on YouTube! Bluudy incredible! How lucky could an old scraper in the bush be? Stunning. Wish I could have been there for that one.

… and the atmosphere is there in the Randal Bays Tony McManus at Rocky Mountain Fiddle Camp clip - one can but marvel at the economy of Randall Bays’ bow to come up with such delightfully moving stuff. Again, filmed in America, and I never would have had the opportunity to experience this particular performance in the live context, either … yet, there it is on YouTube. Ditto with the luck.

The reason I singled out these two clips above some others is that James Kelly and Randall Bays are both teachers … and before you knock the internet with all its warts and all, Skype technology is making a nonesense of geographical isolation. It is no longer an excuse for not getting the tutelage you want. So the teacher you want is not necessarily out of your grasp regardless of your isolation (unless you don’t try for it - your call). Skype makes the right teacher available whereever you live.

I agree about the churned out non-interactive information type digital tutelage stuff on the internet, mountains of it. Usually makes me groan out loud when I see the prossess is one way and robotic - sorry, there is no reason to discard isolated ITM musos to this soulless path. Why learn a tune if it isn’t going to be shared around, mulled over, a bit, hey? … and don’t say a warm welcome, a cuppa-tae or a drop of the hard stuff and a good yarn aren’t part of the sharing of tradition. Given a living communicative human at the other end then the internet can be the next best thing to reality.

Anyway, I’m about to embark on a new life adventure which is a bit scarey … reviewing my options … and who knows where the path might lead … hope this doesn’t come out too aggressive or negative, just me own little take on digital reality. I’d be lost without it.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

One of the most spectacular feats of humans is their ability to deal with various forms of handicap. Bionoc arms and legs for amputees, hearing aids etc. Not to mention sheer vigour, like the one legged geezer who climbed mount everest. And the para-olympics. But it has to be remembered that the para-olyimpics is not the olympics.

However, the handicap of not having people around you to play diddley music with is not in the same league as having only one leg. The one legged man can use the modern wonders of technology to help him, and so can the isolated musician. But where the one legged man with never be able to grow another real leg, the isolated musician can simply move. And if any of you whingers above really really did want to play as much as you say you do, you’d move.

Posted .

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Where was the whinging? I’m not clever enough to tell everytime whether someone is pulling my leg here or not, but part of that last comment was stupid. Why do you bring in negativity and name-calling?

Some of us Michael don’t have the luxury of dropping everything to satisfy the sole urge to play music, even if the music is a major part of our lives. As you might appreciate, there are other things in life that are important… um let’s think:

family - incl young children at school, she won’t mind the upheaval
friends - yeah, but its easy to make more, so forget that
work - jobs like mine grow on trees
community - oh, plug in a replacement easy peasy
and a word you won’t have heard, but the concept maybe:
turangawaewae - a Maori word to encapsulate the concept of the place where you belong, where you are truly home, if you leave you always have a feeling that that is the place to be, to return to. Weird maybe to lots of folks for whom it is nothing to move around as if where they come from and where they live is not important. I suspect there might be a similar sort of concept amongst some Irish people, given the number of songs about their place of birth. Not something to be dismissed….

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Perils & Joys ~ seeing and hearing James Kelly again is definitely on the plus side, along with some other great musical offerings online, with or without audio. And then there’s this yellow soup here, which I fell into at a time of high stress in my life, almost losing my wife. I see benefits. It has made me question things, reconsider things, take alternate perspectives ~ and has helped me reconnect. I continue to learn. There are aspects of it I appreciate, but I am not blind to its limitations or even its potential to do damage, harm. That doesn’t mean it can’t be undone, just that it is harder than learning something well from the start from someone who has the proof in their playing, and has respect and recognition amongst those who have the experience and involvement to know the difference.

If you were to ask me where you should invest your time and money, outside of direct one-to-one lessons, if you were stuck all by your lonesome ~ I’d say go for the DVDs and book/CD material out there. Those people got contracts and backing because they had proof they could do it, they had done it already, they’re known and respected. No such clearance and filtering occurs online, or very little. ANYONE can do it.

Yes, some of us know the difference, but generally a beginner doesn’t, they are a beginner, they have little or no clue and are looking for direction. Mostly, what I’ve seen online, with a few exceptions, like those already mentioned, is pretty dire. Back to the basics of why ~ it’s flat, two-dimensional. It’s a palm sized low resolution video. They don’t know you and you don’t know them. For beginning, or developing technique further, as a way of doing either ~ in general ~ the Internet SUCKS!!! That doesn’t mean you can’t, like here, get some constructive and useful direction. Go with the other options for learning the second choice after a living source ~ something in hand, and take every advantage that comes your way, that you can, and be brave enough to ask for help, be bold.

As someone repeated, the old addage ~ "Where there’s a will there’s a way." ~ if you have the heart for it… If it really is in your heart, I promise you, the nerve will be there too, somewhere, though it might take a little searching, and support from loved ones and friends helps…

Fish ~ I don’t think anyone was commenting on you directly… I liked what I saw of the guitar videos you gave us links to.

Brown Creeper ~ you’re doing the best you can… Part of my concern and worry was about those who are not particularly good taking up the mantle online to teach and spread further their bad habits and inabilities… There are some decent video/DVD recordings out there for just about every instrument under the sun, these, as said, tend on the whole to be a much better option than turning to online offerings, though there are some good ones, as we have mentioned and added links to here and elsewhere…

Clear Drops and anyone else in doubt ~ If someone tell you to give up ~ don’t! Even if you were shight, if it gives you some pleasure and happiness in life stick to it. Yes, maybe, initially, it might not be a good idea to subject others to it. It might be wiser and safer if you didn’t jump at the opportunity to subject the rest of us to your struggles, initially, that it might be best kept to yourself, or a few caring and understanding friends, or teachers… That doesn’t mean you can’t progress and eventually get reasonable enough to subject your take on it to a wider audience.

Clear Drop’s, you can strike all that because you have a session that has welcomed you and taken you for who you are, and is willing to include you and help develop you. There is obviously mutual respect. Lucky you, what more could you ask for, eh? Yes, I know, stuck in the toolies of Oz ~ lots… Send me your list. I’ll see Santa gets it… πŸ˜‰

Yes, to repeat myself, I also value some of the content on U-Tube, and also what is available online from Irish tele and radio, some priceless sounds and views…that shared wealth… That is something good, joys we have both in this house appreciated…

~ with or without audio~ I meant ‘video’ 😏

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

When did I ever tell anyone to give up? (apart from bodhran players of course)

Posted .

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Michael, your prev comment:

"I agree. The operative word is "Vital". If you are not "training your listening while playing, ‘having’ a tune with others," then you have an insurmountable handicap. I know that people with this handicap will come on and chastise me for saying there is no hope for them, but really, that is the truth of it. Without one to one, it’s hopeless."

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

That’s a long way from saying give up. If you are physically isolated from other diddley musicians there is no hope that you will ever be able to play diddley music at all well. That in no way means that I don’t begrudge you doing the best you can.

Posted .

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

I’ve just been looking on You-Tube for some versions of Reel Beatrice. There’s not many, but I thought of this thread when I went through them and thought they’d serve as a good indication of the perils of You-Tube, so I’ve put links to the videos and my thoughts about them…… What’s particularly troubling is that many of these occurred on stage, so further validating these videos.

Perhaps it’s a little harsh to be critical of other people’s playing, but then they did put it out in the public domain, and I do feel all the comments are justified and justifiable. Apologies if this constitutes any member’s playing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQwgZXzJc1Y (529 views).

- Not a bad version, perhaps a bit lifeless though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQwgZXzJc1Y (379)

- A few rather flat notes, not great rhythm, and a bit messy in the scale down from from the top C.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHlOyu0uCmg (326)

- By all accounts actually a good version. But it’s probably a little slower than would be danceable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNF8QVajXkw (2500)

- Recording of the tune, but incorrectly titled! And was corrected in another video, only to reply that they preferred calling it "Red Beatrice" Quite how it’s appropriate for Irish dancing either……

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9iwdJDgrFE (313)

- Utterly ruined by the percussion. Not terribly clean either, particularly in the scales down. Tempo is pretty variable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7I_5-ho_NM (451)

- By far the best version on here. Great playing, not helped by the EQ and compression that most video cameras have on.


This made me wonder if there’s potential for the site to contain a list/directory of You-Tube links, indexed by instrument and level, that members of the site have looked at and feel are suitable learning tools. It might just save beginners looking at duff versions of tunes (like some of the above) and attempting to learn from them.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Or even save them from wanting to learn such s h i t tunes in the first place

Posted .

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

I like that idea Andy V… Even those wanting to create something similar for online consumption would have something to turn to for inspiration and direction… It is possible that Jeremy might feel the ‘Links’ section on this site already meets this end, but maybe the addition of a new category, one more specific to this end, might be possible? The video entries could have a ‘comments’ section which would allow for members to give constructive criticism and guidance on the offering…? 😏

Llig, just so it’s clear, I didn’t read you that way… I was responding above to how others had taken it personally, when I didn’t interpret it as such. As I have been guilty of whinging and moaning myself at times, I took no offence of that. We all do it now and then… πŸ˜‰

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Yes on both counts…but there are, as with most things, exceptions to the general prevalence of crap…

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

llig—re Reel Beatrice—maybe you should straighten out Sharon Shannon on which tunes are worth playing, eh? I’m sure she would appreciate your help. ;>}

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Although I think that Reel Beatrice, by any player, sounds more gypsy than Irish… but what do I know, anyway?

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Not to slight Liz Carroll (a favorite of llig’s, I believe) or Natalie MacMaster, who have also recorded Reel Beatrice.

It happens that I have some personal attachment to the tune, though I don’t play it much any more. I found it on a web site when I was just getting started, took it as personal challenge ("It sounds hard, but I bet I can learn to play it") and managed a good enough version to inspire another beginning fiddler to learn it too. Now, whhen we happen to attend the same session, she always pulls it out to challenge me. It might not be Irish, but it has been a fun tune to play, and get at least one other player interested in sharing a tune. So I would argue that it, and the Internet, are not completely useless.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Todd Ehle: Professor V
http://www.youtube.com/user/professorV
http://virtualviolin.blogspot.com/

I’d not taken the time to go over these before. I just viewed a number of them and I was impressed. Thanks for directing me here. That gives me three series I quite like, Dun’s whistle series, and, while this isn’t specifically trad, Todd’s violin series, and that previously mentioned guitar series as well, not bad. I like the clarity and the personality behind all three series, the obvious care and passion in all respects.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Did I miss something in the discussion that made Real Beatrice a natural choice of tune to illustrate a point? An Italian polka turned into a Quebecois reel, picked up by an Irish-American fiddler (Liz Carroll) 50 years later, and passed on to Natalie MacMaster & Sharon Shannon (can’t recall which one got it first), and then to their disciples around the world, and used by a teenager in an old-time fiddle contest. Some of the players in the videos are more proficient than others and are better able to bring the tune to life, but none of them can claim to be playing in the style of the tradition from which the tune originated.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

No reason whatsoever I’m afraid. I just wanted to try to find a Quebecois version of the tune that was reasonably traditional so I could get an idea of the original phrasings. Because I wanted to know whether or not I should play the arpeggios as a sweep or as alternately picked notes. And when I saw this thread I was reminded of the videos I’d seen.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Come on Gary, give us the Italian polka take on it… πŸ˜‰

You could even do it on U-Tube… In costume of course…

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

I have a version from the fiddler Jos Bouchard originally recorded in the fifties if I’m not mistaken. It’s not that far removed from the Carroll version, a little slower perhaps.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

According to the comments for Reel Beatrice, the Bouchard recording dates from 1938.

Re: Dim Sum Trad ~ the joys and perils of digital tutelage

Damn, and I was so hoping to see you in knee britches Gary, and a bouffant of some sort…