Backing and the piano

I’ve been listening to more recordings of diddly music with instruments beyond the fiddle, and many of these are the older recordings in various compilations

One thing that I am hearing when a piano player is on the recording is chord patterns that resemble “I Got Rhythm” or jazz piano voicings similar to the pre-bop era of the 30s

What I am hearing is the progression I-vi-ii-V played over sections where the tonic chord would sound for 2 bars

Then I hear clearly a I-I7-IV-iv in inversions with the bass line decending from the root down to the V chord as the backer works to bring the phrase home

At first I thought this was just because the record studios in New York put their own rhythm section players on the track with the Irish musicians. That was a common practice back then, and these guys would probably lean on what they knew, especially at the tempos that the Irish songs are played at.

Then I got my hands on “An Historical Recording of Irish Tradiditonal Music From County Clare and East Galway” with Paddy Canny and P.J. Hayes and I heard the same things in the piano backing.

So did Irish folk music get influenced by the swing era piano players of the 1930s when the records made by Irish musicians in New York found their way back to Ireland?

Are these patterns of chord substitution used by backers on other instruments?

Just how traditional is the piano in Irish music?

A friend of mine used to refer to it as “Someone driving the piano…” and, by all accounts, it wasn’t always done well.
Mind you, nor is guitar-backing these days ( Letters, passim).
Guess it couldn’t start before they had pianos in bars, and maybe the early fiddle recordings were a lot to blame, for encouraging it.

I think you may be right on several points Nate. My New York Irish Grandparents used to call this stuff “parlor music.” Friends and family would come over and have a few stories, sing a few songs and scratch out a few fiddle tunes while someone pounded away a 2-4 piano vamp behind them.

I have that same album with Canny and Hayes and I think it’s a perfect snap-shot of that era. New York musicians and their influences plus the ceili band popularity in England and Ireland at the time used the piano heavily

If you’d like to hear a nice modern use of the piano, check out Jarleth Henderson’s recording of Old Bush / Jolly Tinker / Richard Dwyers - available on iTunes.

In the nineteenth century, when people still had to make their own music, almost everybody in the United States who could afford a piano had a piano in their home. I don’t know whether or not the situation was the same in Ireland or Scotland.

Also, speaking as a pianist who has been playing for approximately forty years now and has played a variety of musics such as jazz, country, western swing, blues, ragtime, and “classical”, I think that simpler chord progressions work better in Irish music than some of the chords and/or chord progressions which would be used in jazz or blues or ragtime.

I really enjoy piano backing. No, not the Vaudeville bangy bangy stuff like Michael Coleman’s backer that everyone makes fun of, I mean this modern incarnation of very tasteful and classy keyboard backing. It’s a nice change of pace from the mandatory guitar backing, not that I don’t enjoy that as well.

After reading fauxcelt’s descriptions of what he does, I’d really like to play with him! 😉

Some of the progressions you mention sound like the kind of thing that Peerie Willie would routinely do in guitar.

I love to hear Peerie Willie do this kind of stuff but dislike it in almost any other player I can think of. I kind of think of it as harmonic excess and it has to be played very straight and sympathetically to work. I imagine hammered through on the piano it might be a bit of a paino.

Thank you SWFL Fiddler. I suspect that I would probably enjoy making music with you at your local session also.
As I have stated earlier in other comments, I go to Irish Jam Sessions (and other types of jam sessions) to try to blend in with the other musicians by playing with them instead of against them. I try to enhance the jam session instead of trying to ruin it.
How far away from Orlando do you live? We might be going to DizzyWorld (DisneyWorld) one of these years.

Orlando’s a four hour drive, but we could always meet you up at the Tampa (2 hour) session or we probably owe the Orlando session visits by now anyway, to be honest. Not sure how they’d be about keyboards, though. Be safer at my home base, for sure.

To return this discussion to playing backup on the piano…..I have been thinking about “irisnevins” suggestion that backup musicians should try to learn a few tunes on their instrument because she thinks it would help improve their accompanying skills. I completely agree with her and I believe this idea could work both ways. I have had the dubious pleasure of making music with some musicians with a lousy sense of timing and rhythm who seemed to know only how to play lead. I wonder if it would benefit these musicians to also learn how to play backup either on their instrument or another instrument.

The more “angles you come from, the better your understanding of ”the whole thing." Everything you learn in life helps you when you fit it into the right context.

For good piano, pick Felix Dolan, Charlie Lennon… for starters.
I learned so much (keep repeating this, I know!) about backup by listening to good piano backing, particularly Felix whom I have known for years around NY area sessions, performances, etc. have sat next to him at sessions, and really took an interest in how he was accompanying the music and gradually applied it to guitar, made a real study of good pianists, by ear.

What I hear, to be specific, from good pianists backing this music is:
1. They never rest on a chord very long
2. they lead up to a chord or back down from a chord with little bits of melody.
3. They make use of some counter melody or harmony
4. they can on a whim join in on bits of the melody, then revert to backup, with ease.
5. I learned the best back up players or accompanists are generally also melody players, on their piano or something else, Felix plays a mean flute.
6. The best backers, could be melody players (see above, they often are) if they wanted to, but prefer backing for the joy of it.
7. Dare I say, the best backers I have ever heard, what they do is at least as intricate and complex as what the melody players do. In some ways harder, being so intuitive rather than following the notes only. Not only pianists, but someone like Alec Finn, who is a genius accompanist.
8. They vary things, they may shift octaves for variety, they don’t tend to repeat the same runs on and on.
9. They don’t compete with the melody.
10. They can keep the tune running if the melody player drops a few notes by accident or slips up, they pick up melody or just keep it moving until the melody player gets back on track. In a performance they can make it appear the drop was planned to highlight the piano a few seconds, and then join back in.
11. They are 110% focused on the melody, yet are doing something else with their hands.
12. They seem to be mindreaders for key changes and never ask, but they also have learned thousands of tunes they carry in their head and can back on the fly for that reason.

So….really I have learned a lot more from the good pianists than from other guitar players… that sounds odd… but I think every guitar or bouzouki player could benefit by studying the best of the pianists. it’s a serious business for some, the accompaniment, they take it every bit as seriously as a melody player and work, study and practice at it every bit as much.

Love the piano played well!! it’s great.

“made a real study of good pianists, by ear”

that’s how I learned to play bebop and what I was doing with regard to Irish music when I noticed the similarities to the 1930s styles I knew

My question really is more of a historical context type of question. And my secondary question was regarding how much this style of dancehall piano influenced other instruments in the Irish tradition

It really just shows that I haven’t been listening long enough yet and was just needing a better perspective

but all that said, I think what you said about backing there Iris is all good points and pretty universal to all styles of music. I could apply any one of those ideas to accompany a pop singer, a blues saxophonist, or even an Irish fiddler

and I agree with you piano players are great to study. I listen more to piano players than I do to guitar players.

My only complaint with piano players is when they insist on using all 10 fingers all the time. Leaves me no space to play in.

“1. They never rest on a chord very long”

This your number 1 recommendation for piano backing is it?

That’s the thing I like least about pianists and guitarists who play like them, the constant chord changes.

Sometimes the melodies just need a solid drone with subtle changing notes in the upper voices ala Dennis Cahill. This is similar to what an uilleann piper might do with the drones and regulators.

Constantly changing chords can be oppressive to the melody, particularly changing bass notes on every beat.

All depends on who you’re backing really, some players suit a more pianistic oompa style others need a flowing droney style.

I think a lot of backers just do too much messing around, good rhythm is the most important thing to have along with a good knowledge of the tunes and the kind of chords/harmonies that work. Sometimes this is just two or three chords with inversions, other times you need more.

“with subtle changing notes in the upper voices ala Dennis Cahill.”

I like the way he plays alot. the first record of this music I got was Martin Hayes “The Lonesome Touch”

I didn’t know a thing, I just went to the used record shop and looked in the folk section for an Irish fiddle player, and saw a fiddle and guitar duo, and said “well, at least there’s a guitar in there” or something like that and bought it.

Only later did I come to realize who Martin Hayes actually was

But is Dennis Cahill’s style the norm, or is he a more modern player?

Let me try asking that another way…

Is Dennis Cahill a good player to model after?

When I learn a style, I try to find someone, or maybe a short list, of players whose style to emulate. Then as I get more time in the style, I can find my own voice, but that takes years.

Good point, Flocc. While I agree on most of the points iris made, I think there is a time and place for everything. If its one melody player with an accompianist, as in a concert/performance setting, then some interesting counter melodies and rhythmic patterns can be very appealing. However, in a session, it can be a bit too much. A good accompianist knows when to back off : )

Dennis plays slightly differently in sessions, he doesn’t play so subtly as with Martin (he wouldn’t be heard would he?) and some of the harmonies he uses with Martin probably wouldn’t go down so well in some sessions, but in sessions he maintains a droney pulsing style which I think he might have got from old pipers, he also likes good pianists Listen to the piper Leo Rowsome accompany himself, it’s almost like Dennis’ backing at times.

I love listening to the self accompaniment that pipers, accordionist, concertina players and fiddlers do, the mix of drones and held notes, double stoppings etc can make for a very rich sound. Big clunky constantly changing chords can ruin this.

This is a really good thread, I missed it first time round, but have just read it all and there is much good points and the disagreements are intelligent and thoughtful.

I liked Irsnevins’ list, I liked particularly liked: good accompanists are 110% focused on the melody, yet are doing something else with their hands. This is pertinent to the thing about it helping if they learn the tunes. There is really no need to actually be physically able to play the tunes - you can’t anyway on a piano or a guitar, the necessary articulations are not available - but to have them, every bit of them, in your head while you strum or vamp away is the essence of it.

But I agree with Floccin also, I would like a bit more minimalism from piano players sometimes.

Another thing worth mentioning is fauxcelt’s: “musicians with a lousy sense of timing and rhythm who seemed to know only how to play lead”. If your tune player has a lousy sense of timing and rhythm then, quite simply, they don’t know how to play lead. Remember, everything is already in the tune. The backer is never adding anything that isn’t already there.

“I would like a bit more minimalism from piano players sometimes”

You mean like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKXy1FPTdvg&feature=related

play video

I often dislike the piano accompaniment I hear, but one of my favorite concerts ever was Brian Conway backed by Brendan Dolan on piano. Wonderful, classic stuff.

I met Brendan in London a few years ago, lovely fella, great piano backer and flute player also.

Ilig said: “There is really no need to actually be physically able to play the tunes - you can’t anyway on a piano or a guitar, the necessary articulations are not available”

Ilig, on that note, I would have to respectfully disagree…It’s one thing to hear the melodies in your head, but IMHO, being able to actually play them - on whatever instrument you chose be it piano, guitar, fiddle, etc - gives a greater understanding of the music and how to better accompany the melody without being overbearing. But you’re right - simply being familiar with the tunes is much better than floundering around trying to figure out what’s going on, creating a mess and p*ssing people in the process.

And FWIW, there *are* ways of simulating fiddle ornaments/articulations on other instruments (at least on the piano - I have no idea if there are similar tricks for guitarists). I have to admit, I’m more familiar with the Cape Breton style (and I’m still no expert in this area), but for example, to simulate a cut you play the same note three times - first with first the thumb, then the middle finger, then the first finger - in rapid succession. Not *precisely* the same thing, but pretty darn close. And there are some excellent musicians who play fiddle tunes on the piano - John Morris Rankin (who tragically passed away in a car accident some years ago) and Troy MacGillivray first come to mind, both of whom, incidentally, also play(ed) the fiddle *and* accompanied others. 🙂

p*ssing people off, that is……….

Hey…how could I forget Brendan, Felix’s son! Two of a kind, both great!

As for constant changes, Flocc, it can get grating, I agree when it is CHORD changes, all chording, changing constantly… what I am talking about is the leading up to a chord or walking down with some notes. Most of it actually or a lot of it anyway is not chording in reality. Constant chord changes every half second can be jangling. What about some melodic noting in between the chords. Backing is not always just chording, and a good example is the left hand on a harper.

I have heard pianists sort of drone on for parts of tunes, lay back, guitar can do this quite well too…. for example I like to, when a new tune in a set starts, just drone on a little with no changes, two octaves of a the key note going, then build it up, then at moments pull back again a bit, but all very subtly so you don;t distract from the tune and try to have your own little show going on, the awareness that it is all about the melody and melody player is important, you are there to compliment the music.

For me that is the fun in accompanyment. Also being extremely focused on the melody player, intently hearing their every twist and turn… and speaking of articulation, a guitar can’t do it all like a fiddle, but there are spots where you can to some nice extent, like when you are so mentally and emotionally plugged into the melody player that you hit the slides at the same time, or hold a note at the same time, you need a very resonant guitar with super sustain for that though, and I would think a piano would also ring on with a long note for the time the fiddle or flute is drawing it out. Also…. I like to leave the space between notes open a lot, and stick with the tune. When the melody player hits a stop on a note, I like to hit it with them, they are leaving a space for a reason.

Not everyone will like everyone’s style, and that’s always OK, it just means you have a style and if most like it, no reason to change it, can;t keep everyone happy. I couldn’t bear Dennis Cahill the first time I heard him with Hayes, it was so minimalistic it was almost like Chinese water torture waiting for the next plink on the string…. then I listened more closely, the man knows that instrument inside out and upside down, I finally got it about what he was doing, he is brilliant. it’s not my way, but I really like him, especially as a change from the hard driving strumming you hear so much of. It;s like he is the humble servant of the melody, the music is very important to him, he treaures every note, you can just tell, even if you don’t like his style.

Jenna….that trick, the cut, you call it, it’s a harper’s way of doing things and yes it can be done on guitar, but you are talking about fingerstyle players I presume? Flatpicckers can just do it with the pick. Also have heard pianists lapse into melody (I keep thinking of Ricky Ricardo lapsing into Spanish when excited!!) in the throes of playing. The best of them, can play melody if they want to and understand the structures of the music.

Accompaniment is pretty loose, there are many options to choose from moment to moment, it’s why teaching backing in any real depth is so difficult, you can teach the technicalities, the music theory, but how do you teach the intuitiveness of it? How do you teach how to get the person to tune in (pardon pun) to the particular meloldy player’s mood that day, or how to learn to sort of read someone musically they just met and are playing with on the fly. It’s why I admire a great accompanist whether piano, guitar, whatever.

OK the question was about the historic use of pianos, right? Sorry to write yet another tome on backing after promising myself, no more…. I’m a technical writer for my “day job” in part…so tend to get going and can’t stop!

My friend Alan Morrisroe may well have the answer to this, so I will email him and hope for an answer. Great historian on the music and the NY immigrant players from the 19-teens on.

“you can teach the technicalities, the music theory, but how do you teach the intuitiveness of it?”

Right on, Iris! (oh, and “cut” is a term for a triplet, at least in these parts).

They call it a cut on the harp too I think Jenna, I’m pretty new to the harp, but enjoying it. It’s easier on harp than guitar, maybe due to hand position. Then again, I always apporached the guitar more like a harp than a strumming instrument, and
likely couldn’t do a hard driving strum if my life depended on it!

The backing intuitiveness… really any playing, even melody, there are some great technicians on their instruments who know all the music theory, have the manual dexterity to get around, but can leave you cold, something is missing, their playing might sound like exercises more than music. Then others put their whole soul into it, and even if technically not as perfect, they sound much better even with a few flaws and mistakes. They may know zilch about theory, not have a clue what key they are in, yet the passion and enthusiasm makes the music fly.

In really good accompaniment, there needs to be a willingness to forget yourself and almost bind yourself to the melody player’s mind, to the tune and to the heart of the music. How do you teach that…. don’t know if you can, but I think in some it just happens accidentally one time, and you figure out how to recapture it and make it part of your music. It’s something that needs to be experienced by the person, and the intensity and joy of it is so strong you get addicted and need more and figure out how to do it. Think of learning to swim and you finally figured out how to float and get around, an AHA moment! That’s how it comes best in the music, it’s when you start to really need it in your life.

Also…missing on that list, a melody player who likes accompaniment, and some don’t, but in these parts most do, they should not have to worry about their backer getting it right, they need to be able to play with total abandon, feel free to improvise a bit, to go into a different key without warning, to have the person be able to follow their mood shifts, hear the right key changes, to pick up on the subtleties, and even cover their little goofs (not that we don’t have them too!).

Some may disagree but it there is an art to it beyond strumming a few chords or vamping on the piano, and it’s hard to convey the subtleties. A teacher can only hope, you give someone the technicalities and hope they lock into the rest of it. It’s one of the greatest pleasures in my life when that thing just clicks between the melody player and the accompanist, on some really deep mental level…. Hayes and Cahill being a great example of that.

That all said…. shall get carried away no further and risk repitition and boredom…. but I have an email out the the great historian, and hope to get an answer on the original question….hopefully this thread won’t be on page 59 by then, but will look for it if there is any answer!

josephine keegan on piano > everything. nuff said.

don’t let bad piano accompaniment turn you off to the instrument. listen to the two tracks with josephine on piano on james kelly’s album, Capel Street. those two tracks should cure any animosity one has toward the piano in the context of irish traditional music.