so …

So … Jeremy barred me again and asked me why I ever post here if it annoys me so much. Good question.

There are a few things about this music which are simple and straight forward. And yet so many here seem clueless about these fundamentals. If I don’t get general majority agreement about these, then the "so called" music you play must be so different to what me and my mates play that I really must be pointlessly banging my sore head against a brick wall:


1. You shouldn’t share tunes with strangers via musical notation. You’ve no idea how they might murder them. (This of course, flies in the face of Jeremy’s mission statement, but its importance is evidenced the world over. The only saving factor is that this website has zero impact on the people who can actually play this music. Which leads me to the next point.)

2. If the worth of this website to you is as a "valuable resource", Then you are severely under resourced. So much so in fact, that it stands to reason that your music making will be severely impaired.

3. You can’t play the tunes on a bodhran.

4. The twiddley bits are part of the music.

5. (This one’s a little more erudite, and linked to the first point.) Phrasing is what makes the tunes work. Its importance can not be overstated. It’s what can lift the music beyond being a mere vehicle to dance to. It is the bread and butter of playing across/through bar lines. It is the art available to you when you remove the necessity to indicate to set dancers where they should be. And it is the meat and potatoes of making the tunes work when played too fast or too slow to dance to. I’m not saying that phrasing is not important when you do play for dancers, but that when freed from that constriction, it is what explodes the music to a different level.

It must be great to be right all the time.

So what’s the answer?

er … where did I ask a question?

Llig’s right (again!). He didn’t ask the question - Jeremy did and llig answered it in his opening post.

"…why I ever post here if it annoys me so much. Good question."

So what is the answer? Being here (reading this forum)is like panning for gold. Most of the time it isn’t worth but sometimes you find a nugget. I don’t find many accomplished players posting on these sites - here, C&F, c-net. But it can be fun — and I bet llig leahcim gets some perverse pleasure from engaging with those less accomplished and surely less mean-spirited.

Relax, man.

ha ha, as far as golden nuggets go, "Relax, man." is up there.

What did you get barred for? Bodhran Bashing? dont p*ss off Jeremy dude..This Website rocks. I can listen to nearly ANY Cd any source the sheet music, which agreed is a mere framework but SO WHAT. Its a start. And means I can learn the tunes I want and have instant access to an archive. The Family O Neills MOI stays intact. More to the point I CAN LEARN TUNES, TALK TO OTHER MUSICIANS, SELL AN ODD INSTRUMENT all at the same time..Most of my current repetoire comes off this site and I sold a flute using the discussion board. If Jeremy tells me to cop on and stop talking sh*te. Im inclined to listen..Cocus- Most of the accomplished musician tend to lurk in the shadows reading but not contributing maybe

You shouldn’t share tunes with strangers via musical notation. You’ve no idea how they might murder them…If the Tradition hadnt been written down in some form, where wud we be

this website has zero impact on the people who can actually play this music.. Wrong as explained above. It allows me to source a framework for the repetoire I want and when Im overseas this is even more valuable

Twiddly Bits" These are notated in ABC format..I least my brain seems to think so

I pretty well agree with llig, thing is this new environment is an unstoppable force (barring catastrophic economic collapse … 😉) and it’s really difficult to see what it’s going to lead to in the longer term. Cassette recorders had an undeniable impact (i’m a typical example of this), as did the phonograph before them, but probably the most dangerous thing about this situation now is the divorce of this kind of music from it’s previous aural setting.It’s been shifted into an oracular setting now, even talking about it has become a visual activity.

Who knows where it’s all going? More crap probably? More mediocrity? Likely. Still, good musicians will always out and I still hear some around and about.

Welcome back llig.
1. If you are right, then Clearly Captain O’Neill, Matt Cranitch, Comhaltas,Pat Mitchell, Tommas O’Cannainn, and all the other folk who print out the tunes for people to play are obviously wrong.. In fact O’Neill,actually did us harm in preserving these tunes, they should have been lost…. not.
So IMO, It is you Llig who are mistaken and you are banging your head against a wall; the wall of tradition and accepted wisdom handed down from the past masters of this art such as Leo Rowsome.
2;False logic, based on a false assumption, resulting in a false conclusion.
3… and? so what?
4 Twiddley bits?
5 This has never been disputed here or anywhere has it?

Ahh it was so nice and peaceful here without you, Im just responding to your continued assumption that you have ‘The music ‘, and that anyone who doesnt follow your way, by your definition’, does not .

IMO you have on numerous occasions demonstrated your lack of understanding regarding trad, quotes like this;

>>Micho Russell though presents me with a problem. I’m familiar with his music and know that he often played rolls (though not very well). But, I’m afraid I have a dreadful sense of the "emperor’s new clothes" with his music. I’m sorry to say that I’ve just never thought he was as good a player as his reputation purports. And herein, I fear is Larsheen’s critique. I hold my hands up. I’m from Manchester. England. I’m not Irish.<<

Hers another that cracked me up;>>"maybe Mick O’Connor and Mary McNamara don’t play it wrong"<<
From
https://thesession.org/discussions/10982/comments#comment226614

Back to no 4;
>>get that slow B roll nailed. It’s not difficult. And it’s not an ornament. It is part of the tune.>>

A fundamental misconception demonstrated here. This is false, its not true. On some instruments its not possible to roll on a B. On the fiddle if you transpose a tune with a ‘B roll’ down you find its not possible to roll on an A . So logically a roll cant be part of a tune, its an ornament, there is no roll on the first bar of out in the ocean, unless you wish to play one.

I know that I could just ignore llig when he trolls, but it would be sad were his distorted viewpoint become accepted wisdom anywhere.

This is a classic thread; https://thesession.org/discussions/19215/comments#comment401420

Oi loikes Jigs

RE above hastily typed post: I meant ocular - not oracular, I’m not into mysticism oops!

Of course, you can roll on the A (but not properly on the open A string) if you’re prepared to shift up a position or two on the fingerboard and do it on the D-string - players right back to the Baroque have been doing it regularly. Although most of Irish traditional fiddle music is played in the first position there are a number of tunes that require shifts to reach notes above the B on the E-string - so it’s not a "forbidden" technique within the tradition.

I have to say that, for the most part, I agree with llig.

1) Shouldn’t? Maybe, but it is what it is. I prefer ear learning myself but an awful lot would have been lost without dots.

2) While this is a great source of tunes, the over abundance of newly composed fluff (I’m being nice) and wrongly transcribed traditional tunes (Some of this is up to interpretation, sure, but a lot of it is just wrong, wrong, wrong. There are lots of right ways to play tunes, but there are definitely many wrong ways.) is bothersome.

3) Hear, hear!

4) Double hear, hear!!!! While this technically could be put into the tunes here, it isn’t, and seems to be discouraged.

5) Can I get an Amen! This is something no abc’s or dots can communicate well.

I’m with Jeremy. If you don’t like it, stop coming. You clearly don’t like this site or the lesser-than-you-ignorants that frequent it. You despise the "sheetmusic" of the tunes and I don’t think I’ve ever read you saying anything nice to anyone. If you are seeing these problems that you listed in the real world, then confront them in the real world; don’t come here on a rampage of cynicism devouring every discussion to which you can think of some nasty piece of sarcasm.
Maybe your list has some validity, though I highly disagree with the first two points.
But if you can’t play nice, then don’t play at all (pun intended).
The amount of negativity that radiates from your thesession.org persona can’t be good for anyone’s health. I wonder what you’re like in person.

Now, now.
He was very nice to me once when I mentioned that I’d managed to learn all the parts of "The Bucks" a few years back.
🙂

You need to have a little negativity from time to time.

Did you learn it from the sheet music John?

I’m afraid I did but not the version from this site. 🙂

However, I’ve also listened to many recorded versions which are quite different from each other. Also, it gets played differently in various sessions.

So, while I say I learned it I know that I have to be able to adapt when I’m playing along with others. I do realise this in an even more important skill which I don’t claim to have on every occasion… sadly.

Certain tunes tend to require it much more than others too.

Tasia, I think the reason he keeps coming back is that Michael has become addicted to his role on this site. I’ve learnt to take it not too seriously - though he has his moments - and find it amusing, most of the time.

Every site has their own Llig but we should be very thankful that our one is, at least, very knowledgeable and cares deeply about the music.

Whether or not he admits it himself and even if you disagree with everything he says.

When I started learning to play i first started listening to recordings, then i’d learn versions of tunes on my mandolin that I assumed everyone took as the definitive version and take them out to sessions and most of the time id be lucky if anyone knew them (the version I played that is).

I then got a little tape recorder and said to myself ‘this must be the way to learn tunes properly’ so I took that out and true enough, i learned all the tunes that were commonly played at my local session along with the variations and all was well, until I took them to another session with different players and all the blank stares and furrowed eyebrows told me I doing the ol’ one step forward two steps back thing.

All this time i’d been trying to read music and kept giving up because I couldn’t see the point, I always thought listening was surely the only way. I eventually taken pity on and given a loan of a little green hardback book of a friend of mine (who is an accomplished flute and mandolin player) called ‘Trip to Sligo’ by Bernard Flaherty. After finally learning to read notation and learning some of the wonderful tunes in this book I realised that the problem before was that I was learning everbody elses ornamentation-leaving no room for my own-and it was doing nothing for my own self confidence.

Some people like to learn by ear, I swore by it for ages-still do with a lot of tunes i learn. But what I’ve noticed now is that If I learn the notation (bare-bones that is) then I can easily adapt the tune to complement my own and other player’s ornamentation while playing, and that for me is an extremely valuable resource. Im not saying that this is the right way or the wrong way, some of the best players have no need for written music-but this is just my way of doing it now.

These website is invauluable because it offers discussion on tune transcription. If you give someone sheetmusic to a tune and they completely butcher it, its no big deal, because they’ll realise that they’ve butchered it quickly enough you can be sure-its all part of the learning process…

"even if you disagree with everything he says"

Sorry. That was a typo.
I meant to say "even if you DON’T agree with everything he says". Most of the time, he acually talks good sense.

Well, I for one am glad you’re here. I’ve always been glad you’re here. I’ve often joked you’re like the cranky feller in the session hollerin’ "Yer doin’ it wrong!"

However, despite our knee jerk reactions to people being ‘mean’ and whatever, the grump in the session usually has something important he’s getting at, and you always do.

1. For sure. It’s dangerous for most folks to try to play a tune they’ve never heard before solely from the dots. Some folks have so much skill and experience playing the music that they can take dots they’ve never played or heard before and breathe life into it, but it’s not something that should be tried by everyone and is dangerous to the music and the musician’s development if they don’t know what they are doing and just think they know. I can’t even imagine the Chief wanting folks to tear through his dots blind, making hash out of the tunes. Hear the tune, use the dots to suss the tune out, that’s what Llig can’t say but I can because I’m not him. Ha ha. 😉

2. Most people, even isolated from other players, wood-shedding away by themselves, who claim this site is a ‘valuable resource’ are forgetting how much recorded music they listen to, their iPods, You Tube, whatever. That is their primary resource, their ears and the music itself. Or, it should be. Ears, then dots.

3. Poppety pop plop plop pop.

4. Twiddly bits is ornamentation or articulation? (HA HA! Couldn’t help myself, sorry.)

5. Perhaps that’s what’s missing when only dots are used by people who shouldn’t be only using them, phrasing.

All in favor of this sit e going back to the helpful, friendly, fun place it once was raise your hand.

Mary

Tasia,
It’s not really anything to do with this site what he’s like in person. I think its a little tasteless to go down that route. Stick to internet persona’s.

Which is exactly what Liig is. A persona. He enjoys it. He may seem like he doesn’t, but he does. He’s here every day. He’s appointed himself as the bad guy, or the lovable rogue. His are probably some of the only entertaining things I read from this site. Ok, he comes across completely socially retarded, and his opinions often border on neo-facism. Ha.

But if you use your bullsh1t detector, ignore his silly little disciples and put things in context, its plain to see he genuinely loves the music. Thats enough for me.

Illig, while some of what you say may be true, I think you display a certain naive arrogance in your quest to save the music from those that would "murder" it. You are not alone - there are many such "Trad Police" around, telling people what they can and can’t play. This music has been around since before you were born, and it’ll be around long after you’re gone. That applies to all of us. Irish Traditional music can stand on its own two feet - it doesn’t need you to fight its battles for it.

Without wanting to sound arrogant myself, I would consider myself a fairly competent fiddle player. I think the musicians who know me (in the Clare, Limerick area) would agree. I was lucky enough to have a fantastic teacher, and to grow up in an area steeped in the tradition. As Trucks says, I do tend to stay quiet a lot and just read, except for the occasional post, usually relating to fiddle technique or equipment, or to try and help a beginning fiddle player get started on the right track. I’m sure there are plenty of accomplished players who check the site out every so often.

I learn most tunes by ear, but I also use lots of sheet music. True, you won’t learn proper phrasing from sheet music, but if you already understand the music and know how phrasing "works", sheet music is an invaluable reference for sharing and learning tunes. My teacher taught me using sheet music, and I do the same for anyone I’m teaching.

I also think this site is a useful reference. It won’t teach you traditional music all by itself, but it’s an extra tool in the belt. I wish it had been around when I was learning. I occasionally find a discussion that, even if it doesn’t do anything for my playing, gives me another perspective or another way of explaining something to a student that might just "click".

Anyway, welcome back Illig, and chill out a bit dude. Try and gently steer people into the tradition, rather than bashing them over the head with it. Don’t worry, the music will survive.

I agree with the Venezuelan……I have no idea who most personas here really are, as I have met very few of them. Compared to many other forums on the web, a lot of the heated debates here have a surprisingly high level of quality, which in turn tells me that these people really care, and that’s the main thing.

S

I reckon you’ll be OK in Ireland with this site, tradshark. It’s outside of Ireland where it causes problems, mainly cos there are fewer authoritative (or at least accepted as such) real-world points of reference against which to gauge things.

This site represents a weird, weirdly interesting, funny, disturbing, and unprecedented development in the dissemination of trad music. In Ireland you’re OK because there are lots of people there who play right, elsewhere the danger is that it might enable a lot of people to play an awful lot wrong - and never know it.

If nothing else it’s all very interesting. It’s probably also quite amusing if you are Irish!

its is

hehe, yeah, it is pretty amusing. I take your point about people outside Ireland who don’t have the frame of reference that we have here. Sure, they might be playing it all wrong and never know.

But who cares? As long as they’re enjoying it and not bothering anyone. In any case, anyone who really cares about doing it right should be able to get their hands on good CDs to listen to.

Wow, llig, dangerous thing there - telling people that you might just go away if the majority doesn’t agree with you… You might get people disagreeing just to get rid of you 😉

FWIW, I understand, and agree with just about everything you say on this site. But 90% of the time, I shake my head and laugh in wonder at how jaded and negative it comes across sounding.

Now, for me, I’ve come to appreciate the bluntness of your style, because you generally just say what you think, instead of trying to couch it in political correctness, or sugar coat it to avoid stirring things up.

And, although we’ve never met in person, we have a number of personal acquaintances in common, and I have gotten a pretty good feel for your real life playing ability and persona from those people. Nobody that I have talked to that knows you personally has said a bad word about you. And you are obviously a highly accomplished player, and someone that many of the people on this site could (and probably should) look up to.

That’s the thing about this site. There are many of us out here in the world that are somewhat removed from the base of the tradition. We use what resources we have to help us try to avoid murdering the tradition. And this is a tradition that has caught our fancy enough that we actually care not to murder it. I’m speaking specifically for myself here… I have run across enough people that don’t have that same kind of passion and respect for the tradition, and those types of people are members of this site too. So there are those of us that appreciate what you have to say. We have learned to get past the knee jerk reaction to the way your posts often come across, and look at the content of your message, because we might learn something.

The problem with a site of this magnitude is that it encompasses a huge spectrum of different kinds of people. From casual observers, who couldn’t care less about the preservation of the tradition, to people who live and breathe the tradition from the depths of Ireland, to people in faraway places that don’t even speak English as their first language, but are interested in the music. And you can’t expect to find much agreement on things amongst a group that diverse. So you have to put up with the fact that not everybody is going to agree with you, and realize that you’ll never be able to brow beat them into it either.

So I am a relative newcomer to the tradition. I believe that I have done a good job of learning about it, and I try to treat it faithfully. This website has had a lot to do with that. It’s not that I take everything I read on this site at face value. I’m intelligent enough to separate the wheat from the chaff. And the very fact that there is a lot of disagreement about things (like the use of dots, or whatever) can be a very valuable learning experience. Because you get to see multiple sides of the argument, and make up your own mind about it.

Wow, didn’t mean to write my first novel there… 😉

@tradshark - what gets people’s goat over here is that occasionally people ‘doing it wrong’ - though clearly enjoying themselves - does actually bother the people trying to do it right. It’s hilarious …. sometimes 😉

It’s probably analogous with the "tourist problem" in some sessions in Ireland. Only here they (or me, or we even) aren’t just around for the week.

OK, in regards to the chuckling and scoffing about anyone not living in Ireland, for once and for all (HA HA!!! Who am I kidding?) it’s a shared tradition, whether that fact is liked or not.

"Irish dance halls were a well established fact of life in cities across much of the U.S. in the 1930s. Following World War II, through the 1940s and 1950s, some of these dance halls attained legendary status. Unique amongst its peers was Boston’s Irish ballroom scene—five halls on the same street, all within very short walking distances from each other and to public transport."

http://www.upne.com/1-55553-610-7.html

So how was Irish music doing in Ireland then? Dance Hall act anyone? 😉

http://www.setdance.com/pdha/pdha.html

Sorry for the side track. Now get Llig back in here to say something grumpy, stat!

I think anything on this site I have learnt about the music has been from Llig, dow and will cpt. I might point out that I have a recording of his playing that he once kindly sent me. And I still listen to it from time to time just to remind myself how effortless and beautiful this music can be.

I agree that the original post doesn’t really mention why Llig is still around.

I do have one very specific query:

"You shouldn’t share tunes with strangers via musical notation"

Assuming someone can play reels, jigs, hornpipes and stuff (if the playing sounds irish, has nice phrasing and all that stuff). Is it still not possible to share a tune with him via dots? Are individual tunes (or at least the good ones) that distinctive that they are *more* than the sum of their notes and the tradition in which they are rooted.

Of course dots only show one version of the tunes, lack phrasing and ornamentation, but are the variations and the twiddly bits included in the tunes not dictated by the tradition itself and already at the disposal of whoever has some understanding of the tradition?

Or put it another way, Llig. If I write a tune and send you the dots. Is that not enough for you to be able to judge whether it’s a good tune or not, whether it fits with the music or is just some weird assembly of notes?

If the answer to these questions is no, could you be more specific to show me why?

So llig you want general majority agreement from”Most of the people who post hear don’t understand it, [ITM] I suppose that makes sense.
. Otherwise ;>> the "so called" music you play must be so different to what me and my mates play that I really must be pointlessly banging my sore head against a brick wall:>>

Yep that makes sense too. The so called music we play in the pub probably is as different as chalk is to cheese compared to what you and your mates play.

But what do you mean? that the music you play is great and anyone who disagrees with you therefor plays sh*te?

SWFL, you’re absolutely right, and thanks for those links. It’s a sad reminder of how a few die hards like Junior Creehan and John Joe Casey (to name just 2) had to try and keep the music alive despite the best efforts of the interfering church and "nanny" government to kill it off. We, as a culture, owe those guys an enormous debt.

It seems even to this day that the people who have least appreciation for Irish tradition are the Irish themselves. Even now, although the standard of playing is higher than it has ever been, there seems to be less of it around. Certainly in Ennis, there are far fewer pub sessions than there were even 10 years ago.

It’s nice to see that there are so many people around the world passionately discussing the music though. Llig comes across as pretty harsh and blunt, but I’ve no doubt that he knows enough to be worth listening to, even if I don’t always agree with him 🙂

Michael, you’re not a cynic.
You’re a proselytist.
& you may have a fear of strangers. but I could be wrong on that part. I don’t think you need all of us. I hope you enjoy playing with your mates 1/2 as much as you do getting into trouble w/Jeremy. so… do you like the ‘Rights of Man’ ?

You’re welcome tradshark. Much respect to everyone who persevered.

I also remember reading an amusing anecdote about Paddy O’Keefe getting busted in a pub after hours during the height of ‘the music’ hating. Apparently he had been playing and the place had to close, but obviously the festivities carried on. Anyway, a fella comes in with a lady, and asks Paddy to play some specific tune for her to dance to. He hadn’t played it in a while, but off he went, and off she goes.

Apparently, he had become so engrossed in trying to remember the tune and play it for the dancer, that he didn’t look up until he was done. The place had cleared out and there were a few Gardai waiting for him. He remarked "That lass and tune cost me a night in jail!" 😉

1. If I learn a tune from a stranger how do I know they haven’t (also) damaged or murdered it ? Chinese whispers and all that.
2. B*ll*cks. Thats unfair to the people like those Tirno mentioned.
3. Agreed. You can’t play them on a bagpipe drone either.
4. Skip the first word for more takers ?
5. There you are see, you eventually say something that even if obvious to some is not often stated. But some folk here would, include the "playing for dancers" style as part of a shared heritage

Why not paste that first post into your profile and carry on.

(Reverend: For Mancunians who spent time in Yorkshire bluntness is the norm)

Never asume someone can play. If you know they can play, if you’ve heard them play, or if you are teaching one to one, then of course, scribble out tunes for them. I do it all time.

(except if you are trying to teach someone who has learned to read music versed in a different musical genre.)

So…. if Jeremy has barred you why are you still here?

Mary

So we are to assume you cant play? hmm, yes that would make sense too….
Im sorry llig, but how do you expect anyone to take you seriously? Come on, Its common practice throughout the traditional world of Irish music to write tunes down and learn them from the dots. Yes we also learn tunes by ear, its both, not one or the other.

Learning tunes by ear is a great skill, granted. But to somehow think that its the ‘only way’?
If I learn a tune from a classical player, who learnt it by ear from a bluegrass player, do you really think that version is going to be any more authentic than one i learnt from the dots in matt cranitch’s book for example? Of course not, your argument is clearly nonsensical. What matters is the source of your material, can you trust the source? What/who do you listen to?
The dots on this site are really handy for some of us. They are to be taken in conjunction with the listening lists I and others post here.
This site is an excellent resource just for that alone. I have bought many recordings from recommendations here and no doubt others have too.

Where do you get your tunes from llig? your mates no doubt, and CDs etc , where did they get there tunes from? Are you trying to tell us you have an unbroken line of transmission of purely aural learning? I very much doubt it, some of your tunes came from the dots no doubt.

Oooh, let’s just turn this into another 300 post ear vs. dots debate. 😛

Ionannas, llig has stated his position pretty clearly here, and in the past. The underlying thing that he rails against, really, is people trying to approach the music through the dots - not so much people that already understand the tradition and use the dots as a tool. And his point about not sharing tunes through dots anonymously is that you don’t know if the person using the dots understands the tradition, or will end up murdering the tune…

Oh, and in case you missed it, there were several of us here that just finished talking about how we *do* take llig seriously…

I have no trouble with many of the things you say llig but maybe as those great popsters, Bannanarama (irony alert) once said. "Its not what you say its the way that you say it " that is the issue.
If you act the curmugion then people will often only see and hear your anger and feeling you obviously have for the music ( which I respect ) and be blind and deaf to what it is you are saying.
Look up the parable of the Wind and the Sun (aesop) 😉

I reckon you post here a first line of defence, such that those cut down at this distance don’t even reach the doors of Sandy Bells, to come in and play but not LISTEN and thus degrade that session. Won’t work - the youtube posters will come and get you.

I don’t think llig - or anyone else - deserves exile unless he / she is habitually offensive in a graver sense than dissing a species of instrument or a learning technique.

I don’t think llig is, at all. He’s a stickler, and these in my experience are a force for good. What I mean by a stickler is someone who believes strongly that something should be done in a particular way, and is intolerant of it being done in others which he finds deficient: furthermore, he knows that thing well, and can explain precisely why he holds the views he does in relation to it. This is not (in the main) just using the thing as a pretext to attack individuals; it is barking at individuals who threaten to violate the Thing - which is different.

I think llig’s presence on this site is valuable and an asset. I assume also that it augments his happiness and social life not a little. I rest my case for the defence.

Really rev? you take llig seriously?

What IS this thread about then? My impression was llig had 5 points he wanted to ‘educate’ us with? Which of his 5 points do you take seriously? The 5th is taken for granted is it not? So there were in fact 4 points that he keeps on about but even llig is not really clear about these.
So what is llig actually after here? moral support? Hes joking right? Surely if he feels so strongly about his beliefs then he is prepared to continue even if there is no one here to support him, even if he has to stand alone, surely he does not lack moral courage?
Personally the way he attacks first time posters here I find offensive, when he tells Bodhran players to ‘feck off elsewhere, then he is attempting to dominate this session with his objectionable biased attitude.
But not only do I find his manner ignorant, but I actually see little in his pronouncements of any real value.
If you do actually take him seriously then could you just quote something he has said that you value? or paraphrase? In fact I think some of his Ideas actually hinder the development of those that take them on board?
I’m quite serious here , what actual help has he been to you? or anyone…

"Oh, and in case you missed it, there were several of us here that just finished talking about how we *do* take llig seriously…"

No one as much as himself Pete, which may be the whole issue really. Maybe Matti’s advice is actually better than you give him credit for llig.

Regarding the political correctness stuff, thats wrong.
He’s rude. He goes out of his way to be like that. Like I said before - he loves it here. Pretends he doesn’t. Big fish and all that, and no smaller pond than the session.org.

I have seen him ruin perfectly civil discussions before, but I’ve also seen him phrase something about this music better than anyone else. Take the good with the bad…. He loves it, and wants to help.

I have for a while kept a list of good advice from Llig and some from WillCPT, but the majority of it is from MG. Perhaps this makes me one of the toady acolytes referred to by some poster above, but who cares. Most of these things I have found illuminating in the sense of ways of thinking about …or NOT thinking about the music. I append selections from the past year of so from Llig:

-"Keep your ear on the music" is all the teaching you need.

-the best tunes cut across bar lines, they toy with bar lines, they disguise them.

-You can imagine that the accents fall anywhere you want. But on this sublime playing they actually fall more often on the 1 that anywhere else. James Kelly youtube: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Zb1K5BCtLY8

play video

-I learn tunes by phrases,

-A lot of people who first try to play reels end up exaggerating the swing horribly. They need to just point the rhythm down the hill (it doesn’t have to be a steep hill) and they’ll have no option to learn to control it and enjoy it with the lack of effort that is so vital.

-It’s about carving a tune. If you don’t hit the turns nice and smoothly it all becomes jerky and ungraceful, and if you don’t put any turns in, it will just race away from you. And you know when you’ve got it, because there is no tension or effort. [like skiing]

-the amount of swing will vary from note to note, deliberatly, as part of a musicians phrasing. Also, by giving a note a bit more attack, this can have the aural effect of bringing it forward, and vice versa.

-Slow down software slows everything down, all the articulation, the attack, the breathing etc. Stuff that when you simply play at a slower tempo, does not slow down. So to learn to play the tunes properly, you need to get to a stage where you can hear it all, at speed. Don’t think that learning to play tunes from the dots/abc/slowdowner is a short cut

-Being able to play with a metronome is still a long long way from being able to play. And while it’s true that if you practice with one, you will get better at playing with one, if you can teach yourself to be able to play that rock steady accurately down the line merely by listening to yourself and adjusting, you will certainly be much further along the road than someone who learned to play steady by playing with the metronome

-You absolutely have to be able to hear for yourself where you are speeding up or slowing down. It’s no good having the metronome tell you. You have to hear it for yourself otherwise you will never ever be able to understand the more subtle aspects of phrasing


Your honour, I rest my case.

Oh, ps - hi Jig - haven’t seen yo in a while.

Ah, sorry, meant to include this one. One of his best I thought [ps. sorry nicholas didn’t mean to steal your judge line there xpost :]

"Tunes in front of you, to the side of you and behind you. You keep battering away at random until you eventually start to discriminate a path through the maze.
For a while, you think there is a place in the maze where you think it will be solved, and you strive for it. But enlightenment comes when you realise that not only is there no solution to what you perceive to be a problem, but that there was never any problem in the first place. And you simply begin to enjoy your lack of destination. The maze can never be got through, and any assumption that it can, is flawed.
To lean this music you have to be in the maze, making real choices, hearing, listening, playing. I get the impression that most people here regard this place as a resource to assist them through the maze, a kind of map of the maze. Bollox, it has no authority. It’s as close to being useful as those wretched midi files are to being music.

Well done mtodd a nice list there, some good advice but there is plenty there I would disagree with. That last one! What maze? he creates a maze and then tells us how to become enlightened! Oh enlightened one how do I get out of this maze? ! 🙂LOL

There is no maze its a creation of your own mind, in this case lligs I presume. Its a straight and clear path, there is nothing complicated about playing a few old tunes. Though you can make them complicated if you choose. Listen to lots of great players and aspire to play like them, but in your own way. What is complicated about that?

thanks Ionannas…some a-mazeing advice? and some that’s perhaps damnably [purposely?] opaque. But no, I don’t think Llig plays games…he’s playful and amusing and often annoying in an honest way…but he doesn’t purposely mislead…and I don’t think he’s even opaque…certainly not on purpose.

I think the thing that goads people is that he just states it as he sees/understands it….I don’t, quite frankly, think it’s a need to "win" or be holier than thou or even be the resident Session.org expert…he’s just telling it as he sees it, plays it, understands it. So I listen in that spirit. I keep an open mind about his almost haiku like statements. Often they seem to make a lot of sense when I ponder them in the quiet offline.

I think it’s the posturing and bullsh*te that he hates with regard to the music because it detracts from the tunes…and it’s all about the tunes. Which, of course, it is, and that’s all you need..as he has said, would say, ‘it’s all there in the tunes"…..

it’s hard to hear honestly…I think he’s urging people to do just that, especially in regards to their own playing.

however, I shouldn’t be speaking on his behalf, it’s a mugs game "writing the story" about what goes on in someone’s head or life….that’s why I included the more pithy bits that he’s written over the last while.

all i can say is, they’ve helped clarify [or sometimes muddy] my preconceptions about this music…preconceptions that I didn’t even know I’d had!
always valuable.

I actually take all 5 of his points seriously. I don’t necessarily agree with them at face value, but I have communicated with llig long enough to know why he states things that absolutely. So even if the 5 things that he lists here make you mad, maybe you should stop and try to understand the underlying meaning.

Here’s what I take as the underlying meaning:

1. If you’re learning the music from the dots, without listening to the tune being played, in all likelihood, you won’t play the tune anything like it should sound. This can be mitigated by having a good visceral understanding of the music. But a large number of people who use this site as a resource do so because they have no direct contact with the music, or people who play it. And if you’re trying to learn how to play Irish music by using this website as your guide, you’re not going to get it. (Unlike some people, however, I do like using this site as a resource for a lot of things to help make me a better player.)

2. Related to #1. If this is your main source of information about how to play Irish music, you are under-resourced. This website can be a useful thing, but it won’t replace 1. listening to a ton of Irish music, or 2. playing Irish music with people who understand it, which should really be your main resources. Unfortunately, a lot of people who have discovered a love for this music don’t have those resources available to them, and end up relying solely on things like this site. And that’s bad.

3. The bodhran, and accompaniment in general are superfluous with regards to the core of this music, which is the melody. The melody and underlying rhythm drive everything. So, while I love playing with good accompaniment, including bouzouki, guitar, and bodhran, I’m perfectly happy playing without it too.

4. Ornamentation and rhythm are what make it sound like Irish music, more even so than the melody. So this relates to #1 as well, because it’s easy to notate the melody in written form, and not so easy (or impossible) to notate the nuances of the rhythm and the ornamentation.

5. I think llig stated it perfectly, and I agree with every word.

I don’t particularly care who stays or leaves. But rather than belittling what some people take to be words to live by, play by or at least think about, why don’t you, Ionannas try to make one contribution of value.

I’ve been reading your posts over the past few weeks and have yet to see you say something in such a way that it makes me sit back and think.

(oh… and this last part, regarding the simplicity of the tunes. You will find that ever 10 posts or so, Llig is telling us that they’re dead simple - and yet profoundly interesting).

Regarding the opinion that most of us are * strangers*; it does beg the question, will there forever be 2 factions?

- Michael’s disciples will avoid most, if not all, posting of abcs in the tunes comments. (I gave up submitting tunes long ago)

- the others believe there is a resource in using the tunes comments (which, yes, it is seriously flawed & abused).

… I think many of us listen to Michael’s words & take his advice into our sessions. For instance, I agree listening is most important. On the other hand I think the forum may be the best place to get to know some of you strangers. I have (in my dark past) listened to other genres. I speak abc. I say this knowing some will re - interpret my squiggles & will play them far differently than I intended. I hope you do. & that’s fine. Maybe someday you’ll be playing the tune in one of my sessions. Then I will let you know what you did wrong & then we can play together. Until then I’m not going to be holding everybody’s hand. Or banging *my* head into the wall.

You’re alright Gill!

phrasing ~ of course

Mary, you and I are apparently among the last of the very few double-digit members still hanging on around here. I agree—I wish it were still the happy, friendly place it used to be. But that’s unrealistic—it stopped being wholly friendly before we got to 1,000 members. Now that we’re closing in on 60,000, all bets are off.

Over the years, I’ve reconsidered many of my own ideas about this music, thanks to Michael’s posts here. I’ve learned no small amount in the process. I’m guessing that this has been mutual, reciprocal, and therein lies the difference between a thoughtful curmudgeon and a plain troll. (I don’t know what got Michael temporarily red carded, but there are some personas here who demonstrate an unwillingness or inability to reason and to reciprocate in a discussion, and that alone should earn them a permanent ban. For me, that’s the crux of the problem with this site and the way it’s moderated.)

Not that I always agree with Michael. Re: his points in his opening post:

1. It’s okay to share tunes through notation with strangers. The ones who can play will be able to use the dots to learn the tune. The ones who can’t play may butcher the tune, but then they can’t play, right? So they’d butcher a tune no matter how they learned it. Some of these people will eventually learn to play and so do justice to the tunes, whatever source they learn them from. Some of these people won’t learn to play. The latter aren’t our responsibility.

2. This website is certainly a "valuable resource" for anyone interested in this music who lives far from the hotbeds of this music (like myself). It’s not our only resource for the music, but it IS a useful one. Cases in point: I’ve met people here who’ve become close friends and direct conduits into sessions and gigs when I travel. Knowing someone before you walk in the pub is "invaluable." I’ve also learned tunes here (because I already know how to play this music) and so been able to fit in and contribute to sessions when I travel. I’ve also been able to share tunes I know with players around the world who then play those tunes extremely well and derive great enjoyment from them. That’s a good thing.

3. There’s no point discussing the music with anyone who argues that you CAN play tunes on a bodhran. So don’t waste your breath. On the other hand, there’s nothing wrong with drumming that doesn’t smother the nuances of well-played melodies.

4. There’s a catch-22 inherent in this. It’s possible to play a tune without twiddly bits and—through phrasing and timing—make it sound "Irish" and authentic. But if you play dozens or hundreds of tunes without any of the twiddly bits, then your *music* will not sound Irish and authentic. So cuts, rolls, triplets, etc. are essential in the grand scheme of the music, even if they can be omitted in specific instances.

5. Phrasing and timing are what elevate *any* music from bland to sublime.

". Its a straight and clear path, there is nothing complicated about playing a few old tunes. … Listen to lots of great players and aspire to play like them, but in your own way. What is complicated about that? "

ps. really nicely put Ionannas….I can’t but help think MG would agree with you…but who knows? ;)

The problem with posts the like’s of Ion’s is that he comes across as hellbent on "winning" the debate, rather than simply participating in a discussion and helping to move it forward.

Nice one reverend, really well put. I agree with what you say, its clearly thought out and expressed.

Mary & Will, I hope I speak for others’ in saying I enjoy devouring the site for some of the great (past?) exchanges.

June 8th 2001
"Okay - I’ve made some changes"

https://thesession.org/discussions/3/comments#comment172

discussion can be good. ;)

heh, thanks, lonannas. Now consider that llig said exactly the same things, only in a bit more abrasive, gruff way 😉

And mtodd, thanks for the reminders of some of llig’s gems.

You’re welcome Rev. I wouldn’t keep them if I hadn’t considered them worthwhile. And they are more than that…they help dispel the celtic mists and romantic notions that one can easily develop about one’s playing and TIM music in general…much of which can be sheer nonsense. It’s brutal, but it’s realistic. It’s better to be realistic, then you can be a better player — if that’s among your goals.

The problem with posts the like’s of Ion’s is that he comes across as hellbent on "winning" the debate, rather than simply participating in a discussion and helping to move it forward..
-This has been true of occasion. I find one posters archival type references to another posters disturbing. Thats not craic. Thats what people do in court. WTF..

Less talk of self more stories for the pot. plz

Thats it though rev, he didn’t, if that is in fact what he meant to say, then why not say it? You may well be able to translate his mutterings into concise sentences but we are not all blessed with your skill and perception. If that is truly his message then I wouldn’t disagree.

Thinking back to lligs postings here, on one hand he says this site is of no value, yet on the other hand he consistently propounds his views here . Why? if this site is of no value then why contribute? It doesnt make sense, there must be more to it. Does he think that it has no value without him? or is he trying to convert people here to his viewpoint so that then the site does have a value? If people dont benefit from this site which is simply not true then why does he post? Does he he denigrate the site because we dont all agree with his ‘enlightened’ viewpoint?.

Wind neck in..Take cold shower

Ionannas….motives for whatever we write on this site don’t matter…you can’t second guess and ultimately it’s both worthless and useless to do so….and it takes us away from the point of this board…which is discussion of ideas…not people’s motives or personalities or indiidual quirks — all of which simply don’t matter…the quality of their ideas matters…and really that’s the only thing that matters cuz that’s all this mustard board really offers [at best.]

Live Agus Let live

Well, lonannas, part of it is that llig is that way. He’s always been that way to an extent. But it’s aggravated by the fact that many of the things that we’ve discussed around here have been discussed (or argued) ad nauseam, and so it’s developed into a bit of shorthand for llig. Why bother explaining yourself, when the outcome is the same?

That begs the question again of "why bother, if it annoys him so much?", and that’s really for llig to answer.

But my feeling is that it’s because he really does care about the music. (Oh, and maybe, like many of us, he also enjoys the respite from work or life’s pressures, or whatever…)

a bit of discussion is certainly respite Rev.

I would agree yet this thread starts;
”So … Jeremy barred me again and asked me why I ever post here if it annoys me so much. Good question. ”

So surely this ‘why’ is a legitimate subject for this thread? or as I asked earlier, what IS this thread about?

Those who can, do. Those who can’t spend an ungodly amount of time posting about it here.

I’m just sayin’.

Hey Trucks, don’t worry about mtodd, he’s not spying, he’s actually saving decent things folks have said for easy reference. Say something decent and he’ll save your thoughts as well!

Its about llig right? or his ideas? or his behaviour ? or what? If its not about the dots versus ear, if its not about the bodhran and its role in trad, if its not about ornaments as part of the tune vs part of the music, then WTF is this thread about?🙂

Though to be honest, I’ll always treasure the Keenan story from one of your previous incarnations.

ye see me yappin etc.."Those who can, do. Those who can’t spend an ungodly amount of time posting about it here".. this precipitated a moment of self evaluation. Cruel..I am not someone who shud EVER do that. Damm u Ailin and your wise Trad Yoda like comments

Lol Ailin, but where do those that can but can’t right now [at work, at home with kids, waiting for session day] so we’ll have to settle for talking about while we wait, fit in? 😉

SWFL fiddler. I was actually referring to Ions extended critique of llig where he referenced some archival type footage. Any way Looks like I shud watch what I say in any case!

llig,

why don’t you post some youtube videos and show us what it’s all about.

Kheelch…we been thru this before…was it 2 yrs ago? [prove it…no, you prove it]. it’s pointless. that’s the "winning" thing Will’s talking about…not important.

He’s up there in any case if you look around.

My comment was part snide, part curious. I am interested to hear him. I couldn’t find anything.

Llig is Simon Cowell. He makes it more interesting, as long as it’s not directed at you.

http://images.southparkstudios.com/media/images/602/602__image_09.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgQrZlcNOSs

play video

Am I right?

Llig…Please…before you get barred again……tell me…..what the bloody hell does ‘Llig Leahcim’ mean ?????????

Mr Llig banned? Is there no justice in the world?

I shall form a support group Mr Llig, "we shall overcome" just to keep it musical.

retrograde

Thanks for the youtube - that’s fantastic. Who’s next?

Mr Llig. What comment or series of comments prompted you to be banned then?

"Llig…Please…before you get barred again……tell me…..what the bloody hell does ‘Llig Leahcim’ mean ?????????"

Are you seriously asking that Free Reed? Find yourself a small mirror and hold it next to the name!

Personally I think Llig talks a lot of sense most of the time. To be honest the reason a lot of folk don’t like what he says is probably because it is uncomfortable reading for them.

I know I have learned the music (or at least the whistle) too much from dots and not enough by ear. On the other hand I have had first rate tutors and am surrounded by the music so I am lucky in that respect. My learning of the guitar has been almost exclusively by ear.

There is nothing inherantly wrong with making use of the dots as a way of passing on the bare bones of a tune and if you read his comments above you will see Llig says he does that himself. There is something missing however if you are out in a dust bowl somewhere with no other source of the music and session life other than this website. It is likely to give you a horribly distorted view of traditional music.

His point about the bodhran is a truism.

His point about the twiddly bits ie the ornamentation is an utter essential. If you play the tunes without the ornaments with the aim of adding them in later as I have seen folk arguing for on this site before then you are not learning the music - not properly. It is a shadow of it’s true self.

Point 5 is tied in to point 4 and point 1. Learning how to phrase and ornament a tune, any tune, is learning how to play traditional music. You can not get all the information from the dots. You do not learn how to play the music if all you are learning is the D note follows the B which follows the F#, etc. You need to learn how to lean into and out of the emphasis, how and where to take a breath (if you play a wind instrument), how to string the notes together so it makes musical sense rather than just sounding like an out of tune midi file.

And of course all of this could be notated in the dots which could show one particular way of playing a tune. But if folk are struggling to learn the music from the level of information that is in the bare bones then they will freak out if everything is accurately notated down!

Ultimately it comes down to realising that your ears are not just there to hold your glasses on (or for indicating the start of your beard!)

Although you always raise my hackles, I enjoy your bullsh*te !
If nothing else, the number of posts here certainly attests to your
"readership"—& kudos to those who have defended your right to
be heard.
I will do all I can to see that your sentence is commuted expeditiously———and, Michael, If you need any cigarettes———-don’t bother me—-go to:

http://cigoutlet.biz/

Airport: "Thanks for the youtube - that’s fantastic. Who’s next?"

If you really care then:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlMw-HiuD3I

play video

Here’s my back!

Nice guitar playing! How about it Trucks and Ion?

Ahh at last something musical;

>>His point about the twiddly bits ie the ornamentation is an utter essential. If you play the tunes without the ornaments with the aim of adding them in later as I have seen folk arguing for on this site before then you are not learning the music - not properly. It is a shadow of it’s true self.>>

But this is the traditional way! you dont expect a six yr old kid to attempt to play all the twiddly bits as llig has it from day one?! do you? Even good musicians, learning by ear, will pick up the bones first then ornament appropriately. Especially if they are learning from the playing of another instrument. If a banjo player is picking up a tune by ear from a fiddler hes not going to fret over the fact that he cant roll the first B on out of the ocean is he especially if he is just a kid [pun unintentional]

This is how I learnt as a youngster, by ear, with no ornaments, the bare bones.

I wonder about Jeremy’s question too. I make no secret of the fact that llig is one of the reasons I don’t like coming here as much as I did at one time. But the internet is a big place - llig can be as sour as he likes here - I can ignore that as easily as he can ignore me. It’s not a big problem, but it’s kind of a shame.

NCFA best looking bit I would say 😉
Please tell me one of the fiddle players is llig
It would make my day

Of course you don’t expect a 6 year old to play a tune with complex ornamentation from day 1. If a small child is learning the whistle I would expect them to be taught the notes on the whistle first along with simple, recognisable tunes for them to practice moving their fingers. I would also expect some simple ornamentation to be introduced at an early stage however (perhaps a couple of easier cuts) and built into their learning so that it becomes part and parcel of their playing and is not seen as some sort of addition to the music.

I did not have 6 year olds in mind in my comments above. I was thinking about arguments I have heard that adult learners or even reasonably competant players should learn the tunes without the ornamentation until they can play the tunes up to speed and then, once they can do that then add the ornaments in afterwards. This is just idiotic advice and imprints the idea that ornamentation is just a few twiddly bits to add to the tunes rather than an integral part of the music.

Airport - thanks. What about you? 🙂

Llig’s opinion on Irish music is a bit overstated by now and Jeremy should really give him a holiday.
You can play the tune on a bodhran.
Opinions are like ars@h0les, everybody has one.
We’ve heard yours lots of times Ilig, have a rest.

Cheers Dave - it is nice to get a compliment from a male model like yourself 🙂

I am sorry but I have never played tunes with llig and only met him in passing so no, neither of the fiddlers I was playing with were Llig. I do have a lot of respect for both of them though.

"You can play the tune on a bodhran"

No you can’t! A well played bodhran is welcome as far as I am concerned and I am lucky enough to have played in sessions with some of the best of them. I have seen bodhran players demonstrate a "scale" on the bodhran but never have I seen them knock out the Kesh Jig!

I’m the one in light blue with the bad posture - I recommend turning the sound down or off though…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly_pzaTTyfk

play video

Thanks airport. Nice cheery stuff. I love bright happy tunes so enjoyed that.

I love how when the guy at the front was introducing one of the sets the bodhran player kept playing! It is practically unavoidable. 🙂

<<adult learners or even reasonably competant players should learn the tunes without the ornamentation until they can play the tunes up to speed and then, once they can do that then add the ornaments in afterwards. This is just idiotic advice and imprints the idea that ornamentation is just a few twiddly bits to add to the tunes rather than an integral part of the music.>>
Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but what makes you so sure? .The ornaments are only an integral part of the music if you chose to play them. Irish music is inclusive, not exclusive.
I dont differentiate between ornaments and the music as you say would happen, unless you are speaking from personal experience, but I nonetheless pick up tunes all the time with no ornaments. Then I ornament as I chose where it feels right, where I feel I can do so without upsetting the flow.
To suggest that my practice, which you have clearly never done, is idiotic , is rather arrogant dont you think?

You seem to think that an old style player who doesnt ornament or vary their playing much is somehow ‘doing it wrong’. do I hear lligs voice here speaking through you?

A tune, played clearly, with no ornaments at a danceable pace is completely acceptable. A tune played slowly with lots of ornaments is as useful at a dance as two left feet.
Remember this is dance music primarily. Its meant to serve a social function, divorce it from its context and you lose an important aspect.

Yeah airport nice and lively, sound very Scots. Piano a bit loud though! 🙂 well done.

In learning the whistle I was taught a lot through using sheet music but I was also taught along with the tunes where my tutor would likely put ornaments and the idea of ornamentation was always intoduced in parallel to learning the bare bones. I have also found that this is fairly common with other tutors I have had in workshops, etc.

Now I find when I learn a new tune whether that is from the dots or by ear that I automatically add ornamentation in to the tune as I play it. I am not saying I always play what my tutor would play or even that all the ornamentation is deliberate but I do have an idea about how I can ornament a tune and it is almost automatic in many respects.

My whistle playing has deteriorated somewhat over the last wee while through a lack of practicing and no lessons but that is another matter entirely.

I don’t think I could pick up a tune particularly well without ornaments. If someone suggested playing a tune through without any ornamentation at first I would probably still subconciously add some.

I would certainly agree that when you become more comfortable with a tune you would tend to add in more ornamentation and more complex ornamentation but I wouldn’t want to learn a tune completely bare of ornamentation.

I never suggested that your practice was idiotic, especially considering that I did not know what your practice was. I have no problems with ‘old style’ players as you put it who chose not to ornament particularly heavily and have said in previous threads that I like Micho Russell’s playing for example (the limited amount that I have heard of it). I never mentioned variations anywhere.

You are certainly not hearing Llig speaking through me. I am perfectly capable of speaking for myself.

I would agree with Llig and others on this board though who have said that there is no point in playing a tune fast for the sake of it. You should play it at a speed you can manage holding a steady rhythm and with clear tone and articulation and then speed it up as you can.

I would imagine that if you get a tune right the way up to "session speed" before you add any ornamentation in then it will not be as natural a process and you will be more liable to trip up on the rhythm.

Ultimately though whatever way of learning works best for someone is fine by me. I can only make my suggestions and opinions based on my experiences and the advice I have received from my own influences. I am a fairly mediocre melody player due to a lack of practice and application and I have forgotten many more tunes than I know. I am determined to address that but there never seems to be enough hours in the day! I do think that with practice though I will improve at a reasonable rate as I feel that I have been taught the basics well.

what is the *worth* of this site to you, Michael?

Well said no cause.
I dont suggest learning to play tunes ‘fast’ but at a good pace for dancing. its not done for the sake of it, but so that a player can fulfil a role. Advancing beyond this purely functional role is great but its ‘above and beyond’ what is needed to be an effective dance musician: Spot on rhythm, clear pronunciation and plenty of lift and drive. This is the essence of trad IMO, the basics, pure and simple. Beyond these basics there is all the ornaments and subtleties that build on the basic functional form.

maybe this much
https://thesession.org/tunes/5797
or
https://thesession.org/tunes/387
or
https://thesession.org/tunes/109
or
https://thesession.org/tunes/786
or as much as one of these?
https://thesession.org/tunes/1762

oops - crossposted, and that first one was supposed to be Three Halfpence A Day…

Yeah…..If he’s barred how come we’re able to read this post….
Mr.Llig is one of those very fortunate individuals that have been able to pick up his instrument,pluck/bow the first few notes and from there,leap to virtuoso level,bypassing all the different phases of the learning process……the first horrible sounds,pain from holding the instrument too tightly,learning the tunes,learning how to ornament,not falling off the wagon whilst playing the tunes,remembering them,getting them up to speed,sounding nice…and finally being able to say to youself "Mate,that sounded pretty good,maybe I’m getting there" ..
That’s why he cant understand the frustrations felt by some of us who may be stuck at some point in the journey……….he’s never been there..
I hope he goes away and never comes back,thesession.org is a happier place without him………the pompous tosser…….

but we’d like to hear from Mr. Ed*

Re: so …

er … where did I ask a question?

Posted on April 16th 2009 by llig leahcim

Jeremy … asked me why I ever post here …

* the horse’s mouth

It’s all silly. Just go out and play music.

There have been over the years a few decent remarks here and there but the gold nuggets hiding in the turds have been very few and far between. Probably why no-one posts here anymore apart from the clueless, the entrenched, and the nutters.

To the question: notation - agree with the already spoken caveats; resource - pile of sh*te; bodhran - boom chicka boom chicka whatdyoumean you don’t know the bucks?; twiddles - I think I know where you’re coming from Michael - unadorned is still full of twiddles eh?; phrasing - absolutely, but not essential to good traditional music, but when it’s working, by god it’s a miracle; the owner of this s(h)ite - yes, a plonker.

Just my honest opinion, and while I bowed out a long time hence, I expect to be bowed out in the active sense soon. Night night all.

zoukboy
oh
utterly
nigh
doth
step

you to the definition of the

twisted
wag
at
the end.

Phrasing … pretty essential

I’m still trying to work out the meaning of your message to me Pomme de Terre ( Terry the Pom ? )…remember we’re a bit thick out here in the colonies…
Maybe I need some lunch and a bit of a lie down ..

llig is 😉

zoukboy, you might be better off not knowing Apple Terry’s meaning. I just looked up plonker. It’s worse than being clueless or entrenched or a nutter.
Holy shi t, potato, what good does that do you to insult Jeremy?
The site is only as good as we want it to be; as good as we make it.

Jeez……I did’nt insult Jeremy did I ??
Insulting Llig ??………guilty…
Jeremy’s a champion…..I like him !!

No! never, zoukboy.
It was potato* used the slur on Jeremy.
*potato ~ from "apple of the earth" ~ or in French Pomme de Terre
Cheers!

Got you now Auburn…..cheers to you as well..
Powerfully nice name that …

As I said earlier if you don’t like Llig’s comments half the time it is perhaps because they are too close to the bone.

I agree he can be abrasive and I tend to take a more diplomatic approach but there aren’t half a bunch of turnips on here to be abrasive about and to. If in doubt then just read the comments from zoukboy and Pomme de Terre above!

Essentially Llig may be rude at times but 9 times out of 10 his advice is good and well worth heeding. He has not forgotten what it is like to be learning the instrument for the first time and that is why he offers advice. If you are after a short cut to proficiency then don’t bother trying - there isn’t one.

There is good stuff on this discussion forum. Sure it’s difficult sometimes when there’s the odd poster who habitually not only miss-reads what you post but even seems to not read it at all. Yeah, it’s annoying being constantly missrepresented, but hey ho, it seems that most people get it and I’m glad of that. And it’s no surprise, of course, that the majority of hostility comes from goat’s arse thwackers, and I’d expect no less from them. It’s mutual.

I realise that a lot of the reason I post is merely advice for myself. All of the stuff mtodd quoted from me above is stuff I’m really thinking or thought about that helps/helped me play. I speak only from experience, not theory. I get angry when people don’t even read what I write. And that’s when I get barred. (it was a week ago by the way, I was barred for a week).

I remember all too well all the stages of learning that zoukboy mentions, and many more. I write on this site about my personal experiences of it all. What helped me and what didn’t. A lot of my thoughts on this music are distilled by conversations here.



two truisms from posts above:

Yes, I do have a certain naive arrogance in my quest to save the music from those that would "murder" it.

Yes, I generally just say what I think, instead of trying to couch it in political correctness, or sugar coat it to avoid stirring things up.

I’ve done some searching on old discussions, and I’m finding myself in agreement with llig’s advice more often than not. Especially regarding fiddle technique, and the learning of Irish music in general.

I’ve stayed clear of the "bashing" discussions - don’t think they bring out the best in any of us.

So if you’re a beginner, don’t let llig put you off playing, but I’d suggest you don’t ignore what he has to say either.

Llig I don’t see anything being gained by barring you in fact quite the opposite. I’d rather have it said as it should be than (a) not at all or (b) half arsedly….. For the most part I enjoy the majority of your contributions, yes, even those that are bodhrán related.

Whilst this site is not the be all and end all for ITM it does provide enough to keep many of us coming back. It’d be a worse place if people are bumped off for telling it like it is, we may all have differing opinions, tastes and ideas of and for the playing of ITM but I don’t why anyone should be barred for theirs.

The comments from llig telling a new poster to feck off[ young bodhran player from Cork], twice, were all deleted.No doubt this is why he was banned. Not for his views which he is entitled to and to express but his objectionable and insulting uncivil manner. Perhaps it would be better for all if he changed his behaviour to adopt to the guidelines here? Tradshark thinks there is some value in lligs contributions so there must be some sense there….

Ionannas, I’m afraid it’s not my fault that out af all the posters so far, you seem to be the only one unable to translate my mutterings into concise sentences. I’m sorry that you are not blessed with that skill and perception.

LOL, you mean to say that this;

3. You can’t play the tunes on a bodhran.

4. The twiddley bits are part of the music.
equals this?;

3. The bodhran, and accompaniment in general are superfluous with regards to the core of this music, which is the melody. The melody and underlying rhythm drive everything. So, while I love playing with good accompaniment, including bouzouki, guitar, and bodhran, I’m perfectly happy playing without it too.

4. Ornamentation and rhythm are what make it sound like Irish music, more even so than the melody. So this relates to #1 as well, because it’s easy to notate the melody in written form, and not so easy (or impossible) to notate the nuances of the rhythm and the ornamentation.

Seriously?

Precisely. And why does no-one else have a problem with it?

I don’t want to debate with you, it’s useless. It was you that goaded me into getting barred in the first place.

enough already

"I dive into the fire that refines me." Llig and Dante have much in common.

And I mean the above in a good way. That’s perhaps the sole value of this site. …why is everyone so afraid of the truth? it’s sad.

Aaaahhhhh——a happy ending !!

This site is an amazing resource despite llig some might even say because of llig! There is no ‘sole’ value, it has many, As many as visit and post here. It facilitates connections between interested parties throughout the world, it offeres an excellent resource in the tune section, access to highly experienced musicians such as ceol, We can check facts, discuss various issues, the music,the personalities, learn and teach, laugh and cry even!
We dont all have the resources some of us have. If folk dont like it then they are free to leave. I do think it a shame that the actions of a few can put many people off coming back here. I do hope tradmarty for example will not feck off and will return. I think it is repulsive behaviour to talk to a young musician in that way. We are all responsible for our own actions.

A few thoughts from a long-time poster (and who would have thought that a member with a four digit number would ever be one of the old timers?):
First a story: A few years ago, my wife and I used to practice together almost every night. And I got pushy. Lets go over that again. Play along with me as I learn this tune on the whistle. We must learn this, that, and the other new tune to keep up with the others at the session. And one day she turned to me and said "this isn’t fun any more," and stopped practicing with me. We still play together in a band, and at sessions, but the duo playing stopped, and to this day I miss it. I took her participation for granted, and should not have. Another story: There was a wonderful Irish music website in my state that was a great resource. But one day the creator got tired of it and stopped updating it. We had all taken his work for granted, and didn’t realize how valuable it was until it was gone. The point of these stories is that we should never take Jeremy’s work in creating and maintaining this web site for granted. When we get too carried away in our arguments, stray beyond acceptable language, and he has to do damage control, it can’t be fun for him. Something for us ALL to think about.
Now on to Llig’s role. Someone above compared him to Simon Cowell, and it is an apt comparison. Abrasive, even abusive, but honest and to the point. I know that on American Idol, Simon’s presence keeps the show from being a meaningless "you are all great" ball of fluff, and feel that Llig’s web persona plays a similar role here. Sometimes when Llig launches into a newbie, I cringe, and I just roll my eyes at his drum predjudices, but he has many interesting and insightful things to say.
Another story: I read a story once that told how the ancient Romans would put a slave in the chariot with the champion during victory parades, to whisper in his ear that all glory is fleeting. To keep the champion from getting a big head and going after the Ceasar, I guess. I see Llig filling a similar role around here. This site is a valuable resource, but with a caveat. Sheet music should NEVER be our only source for tunes, it should be part of a ‘balanced diet’ of listening to both live and recorded music, playing in public, and sharing our music with others. And to keep this point alive, we have Llig grumbling in our ears, "Beware the dots!"
I very much value the discussion here, and think Llig does too, and suspect that is what brings him back for more. I have learned a lot here, and the essay I recently put on my member profile is an attempt to give some of it back. One could say that I did not write that essay, as much as edit things I learned from discussions on this web site.
And finally, there are no winners and losers in a good discussion. We should all make our points as clearly as possible, and remember, continued arguments to the contrary don’t mean that others are stupid, it means they still disagree with us, and that is the way the world is. I will never agree with everything everyone in my life thinks—and would drive myself and everyone else crazy if I tried to get everyone to agree with everything. So for God’s sake, state your point, and restate it if you have to, but at some point, let it rest and get on with your life.
Remember it is all about enjoying making the music, and those who make music are rarer than they should be. So sites like this, pubs that accommodate us, teachers and mentors that guide us are treasures.

Well said Al.

I liken Llig to one of those great newspaper political satirists or sports page columnists that everyone reads and and instantly forms an emotional opinion. The fact that there are so many responses to his singe word post "so" is a testament to his readership. While he scatters crumbs across the pavement, the pigeons come a running. It’s quite funny.

Regarding such a response, I must quote Llig himself: "Christ on a bike…"

But I must point out one thing which might alarm Llig - YOU sir are a resource on this web-site - enjoy the irony!

Excellent point, Jusa—irony indeed!!!!

Ah yes, cruel irony indeed. Though resource I may be, "valuable resource" I ain’t.

meh, value is in the eye of the beholder…

Another gem of yours, llig, that has stuck with me, and made a difference in how I approach playing in sessions:

"What you need to do is to enjoy the feeling of your mind going blank. There’s nothing worse in a session when you have people visibly mulling over their repertoire in their heads just waiting to jump in with their latest acquisition. It’s really really irritating and not what the communication of sharing tunes should be about

Just get to a state where you can let tunes gently bubble to the surface, conjured by the subconscious massages of the tunes other people are playing. That’s what it’s about"

Priceless!

Thanks Mr. Ed
& the lot of you.
but really, Gill, I always liked the Yoda clip you posted (I’m guessing it was just the once) I have no idea what you were trying to say, but it was cool.
Little off topic … if I decided to learn bodhran should I find an instructor or just empty my mind & play?

Busy day, so I have to hit the road.
Cheers!

subconscious massages of the tune

Random, If you decide to learn bodhran, I believe that you have already proved that your mind IS empty….. 😉

Little off topic … if I decided to learn bodhran should I find an instructor or just empty my mind & play?


# Posted on April 17th 2009 by Random_notes


Just empty your mind and play it, it is a rhythm instrument, rhythm cannot be taught it is instinctive, or should be.

These are my favorite, the subconscious, empty mind, Yoda-like pseudo-Zen wise koans that come out.

Cool analogy about the champion and slaves in Rome, Al.

You guys are great, man! [sniff sniff] Group hug!

A few things simple and straightforward (In his opinion). If you don’t agree then your opinion is worthless, of course.
Five points, none of which is simple and straightforward.
Even the Bodhran one.
Retsim Llig as usual gets us all fighting, then sits back and watches. I’ve never met the man, and although if I did I would probably like him, I have no wish to meet him. He has, as someone’s mother said, ‘the sort of face you just want to slap.’
In this case, of course, it is an e-face.
And an e-slap.

I never said your opinion would be worthless. I said that in all probability the music you play would be very different to music I play.

If you think the simple fact that you can’t play the tunes on the bodhran is not straight forward, then I really havn’t a clue how your mind works.

I like michael’s personna on here. And apparently he’s a good bloke in real life.

"Michael’s persona on here"? Michael Gill, that is.

Back in the days before metrication, four gills equated to one pint …

… I would prefer a pint, myself …. 😉

What, you would prefer there were 4 michaels? Quadruplets? Impossible, they broke the mould when they made him.

I remember now …

"Do, or do not, there is no try."
"I don’t believe it."
"That … is why you fail."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcjnbIF1yAA

play video

ps. I’d rather you didn’t write my name the right way round. It’s important that people here know who I am and where to find me. It’s important that I’m not hiding behind a pseudonym. However, I’d rather not that it can be googled. I do have a serious day job. Sorry chaps.

Alternately
"well I tried didn’t I, Goddammit. At least I did that."
RP McMurphy, One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W45XhDPTnX0&feature=related

play video

Or: "Be the ball."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo0baknLDdU

play video

What I want to know is why Jeremy barred Michael and then let some obvious imposter log in here to start this self-aggrandizing thread where everyone and their dog genuflects and slathers gobs of ookey kudos and praise all over the absent Mr. Gill. I mean, the *real* llig would be disgusted by so much attention, let alone so much *positive* attention….













😉

" said that in all probability the music you play would be very different to music I play"
If you’d said this I wouldn’t have responded in the way I did. But you didn’t say this.
As for the bodhran: you are being deliberately obtuse.

Yeah Will, As said above: "Christ on a bike".

I’m astonished that the simple statement, "You can’t play the tunes on a bodhran" can be interprated as being deliberately obtuse. I’m flabergasted.

…everyone and their dog genuflects and slathers gobs of ookey kudos and praise all over the absent Mr. Gill…
You’re not jealous are you, Will?
There’s you all these years being a genuinely decent helpful sympathetic and insightful fella on here when Llig comes slinking along sneering at bodhran players and sessions which don’t fit into his vision of Irish music, and the punters lap it up. The Clement Freud of The session.org - except he’s still very much alive.
For reasons like those I can’t take the site too seriously any more - I have other issues - yes that emotional rollercoaster is still ongoing, would you believe it…..

I’m also flbergasted as where the venom comes from.

I’m going to bed

>I’m astonished that the simple statement, "You can’t play the tunes on a bodhran" can be interprated as being deliberately obtuse. I’m flabergasted.

Why bother getting your gast all flabbered?
Everyone knows that the bodhran is primarily a melody instrument, but the fact is that very few people know how to tune them, let alone pluck them. Eggs and spoons are also grossly misunderstood for exactly the same reasons. I just hope that guy who came along last night with the musical saw is able to sellotape my antique Rudall and Rose flute back together again after I kindly lent it to him to play the Concertina Reel. It did kind of sound like it, the 2nd part anyway - hee hee haw hee hee haw..and so on.

Sorry Mr llig (in reverse that is). I will be sure to say nothing which will allow you to be Googled in the future!

… but come to think of it, a gill is either something fungoid or something fishy ….

…. If it’s neither of these, it’s probably a narrow ravine.

… I prefer a broad river valley myself …. 😉

I wish to say just this, having read this thread (which is apparently populated by jealous, talent-fecked eejits, with just a few nameless honourable exceptions). I am a pig-headed bastard when it comes to playing this music, but Michael is the only person on any of the forums I subscribe to who has ever said anything to radically change my thinking about what I do. He is nearly always dead right, he states his views fearlessly and clearly, and he is the one regular contributor who is always worth listening to. I’ve probably got a bigger bloody ego than most people round here but I know when I’m confronted by plain good sense and I know when to yield. And one last thing. Just give it a rest, all you discomfited bodhranistas. You are not musicians and you are not needed. Get a proper instrument and learn the bloody tunes, otherwise just stay at home. There are two good bodhran players on this planet and I don’t want either of ‘em anywhere near me.

Dear Mr.Llig,
The reply that you made in this thread, beginning with "There’s some good stuff on this discussion forum" is one of the nicest I’ve read from you..just a whiff of humilty, which I’m sure in your real life, is more obvious than what comes out as the written word….
I reckon that in your musical life,you’ve helped a whole lot of people on their way to become better players and I admire your passion for the Music..
However, I think that there are two areas where you go wrong….and I suppose that this relates to your hatred of the transmission of this Music via "The Dots"
1. …Geography..
You think that everyone has ready access to Musicians,Sessions,Live gigs etc…There, they can see how it’s done, get inspiration, tips, feel….this is not the way it is…
In my case, I live in rural Australia, a BIG country.The closest players to me are about 120klms round trip away…and we’re all relative novices, have families,jobs,other things to do and we’re lucky to be able to get together every 2 weeks or so for a play…The only bands ever to come here are mini-Riverdance (sorry for the ‘R’ word) shows, once every couple of years…The nearest capitol city is about 240 klms away and there’s not a real lot of Trad there anyways…
So, regarding the learning of tunes….When I hear a nice tune on a CD,I’ll look up the dots,commit the tune to memory and then discard the dots, I’ll then try and give it some feel through the ornaments etc..
Sometimes I use the Amazing Slow Downer…..Other than those two methods,I dont see any other way of learning the Music in my situation..
2.The Individual….
You tend to lump us all together…..not the case either.
Some of us came to the Music later in their lives,(I’d never had anything to do with Irish Music till I was about 45 years old), Learning things at an older age is harder for us older feckers than the youngsters…some folks dont have a real good ear……some folks enjoy learning from sheet music in the privacy of their own home (alone)….some people cringe at playing in public…some are mighty shy…..some ENJOY bringing a tune to life from dots…some enjoy sitting on the verandah having a strum/toot alone…some are happy enough to be able to play the tune and enjoy it’s simple melody….some might have some sort of impairment that makes things difficult…….and so on….
That,in my opinion,is what you dont figure into your way of thinking…
As others have said,I reckon you’d be a good bloke in real life……but sometimes the real thoughts and intentions get lost in the translation……as sometimes,to my peril,I’ve found out…
I hope you’ll see some truths in my letter…
best wishes….

Mr. Gill, I think of you and your curmudgeonly ilk as bears in the forest. It’s great to know you’re out there, rulers of remote, primeval fastnesses, the symbols of healthy ecosystems. But I don’t particularly care to meet you face to face.

LOL, Thistle, yes, I’m flaming jealous, mad as ‘ell that an ingracious lout, a nasty, feck-all gadfly the likes of Gill garners so much adoration.


I only wish I’d thought of being such an ingracious, nasty, feck-all gadfly myself…..


😉

I was pointed in the direction of the mustard pages by a fellow musician; and for that I am grateful: it is a wonderful resource, valuable in the sense that the contents increase my pleasure and ease my journey through this
all-too-brief existence.
Early on in my encounter with the site, I was almost put off it. Almost; but the desire to learn and share learning, and the love of Irish music, overrode the uncomfortable feeling, the sour taste, the negativity engendered by some of the comments. I remind myself that the web is an easy place to offend and to take offense. Millions of people use it; ergo millions of people are nice, pleasant,
inoffensive, often erudite, usually helpful examples of humanity. In other words, normal human beings.
Just think what this site could be if those who chose to leave had rather stayed to share and accumulate. How easy it is to be put off, and how difficult to retain, let alone regain, erstwhile mustardeers.

So…

So, Retsim Llig. Consider this, the proffering of a relative newcomer to this hallowed (by me at least) site.
The world of music is the world of people. It is not a seperate place. Of course music, like other aspects of life, has rules. The rules are not ‘there to be broken’, as some say; they are there to define and to guide. They are not laws, mind
you: they can not — should not — be invented, only distilled from an accumulated ocean of experience.
The self-appointed keepers, the guardians of the rules, are indispensible; like gardeners, groundsmen, park-keepers. They are the pool attendants, scraping off the algae, adjusting the temperature, topping up the water so that we innocents can jump in and splash around. There will inevitably be those who pee in the water, whether innocently or maliciously; but the keepers will add a bit of chlorine, have a quiet word, put up signs. The water is kept relatively pure. It is a constant battle.
There will be those who swim around wearing plastic shark fins. They think it funny. The kiddies in the shallow end do not, and never learn to swim. It is
therefore also the job of the pool attendants to watch out for sharks; but it does not help the kiddies to shout loudly whenever a fin is seen. Neither does it help to sneer
in disgust that the pool is full of pittle, nor to bar from the water those wearing, say, goat-skin trunks. It might help to point out that goat-skin is not, in your opinion, a suitable material for trunks. But unless an accident ensues, and if the other swimmers are having fun, then what does it matter? There is no law against it, and you should not invent one.
Irish music is not, in my opinion, a maze. It is a pool, an ocean. I found it after a long journey, and joyfully dived in. For over half a century I have splashed happily around, avoiding where necessary the speedboats and jetskis of the
ignorant; swimming, exploring the myriad little islands. Every day, even after all this time, I will dive below the surface and discover another world teeming with unrecognized creatures. It is then that I go to places like these mustard pages to
learn about them. Their names. Where they come from. I go back and become their friend. In my own small way I look after them, and hope that one day their offspring will entertain and delight my offspring, and the countless other children who will take my place.
We need the pool-keepers.
But please don’t frighten the children.

OMG! he uses important twice in reference to himself LOL .

>>ps. I’d rather you didn’t write my name the right way round. It’s important that people here know who I am and where to find me. It’s important that I’m not hiding behind a pseudonym. However, I’d rather not that it can be googled. I do have a serious day job. Sorry chaps.>>

So let me see llig, you dont want to hide behind a pseudonym, yet you dont want people to google you and find you here. Why would that be? because you are ashamed of your behaviour here and feel it would reflect poorly on your day job? How about this for an idea; This is a public forum, your actions here are in public so behave here in a civil manner? Then if anyone feels your behaviour is despicable and does refer to you by your real name you will have no need to worry.

I will refrain from commenting on the you tube link , but its good to know that if that is you playing my feelings were correct.

It is not a pseudonym. It’s his bloody name spelled backwards. The vast majority of people on forums make up stupid names for themselves in order to preserve a far greater degree of anonymity than Michael tries to have, including yourself, I presume. You can criticise when you start posting under YOUR full name.

And it was such an unforgettable pseudonym too!

Which of course, goes to show how ‘backward’ we all are on here!!
(it’s a time like like this I wish I had one of those ‘smilie yokes’)

Ionannas, You seem to be fixating on the fact that people can like and respect llig, despite his curmdgeonly behavior. While you flail about, latching onto point after point, without seeming to win much support. Steve Shaw raises a point, just what is your name, and in particular, what names have you used here on The Session in the past? Your web persona seems very familar to me, somehow……

And there isn’t a bloody thing in Ionannas’s biography either. He’s the most anonymous person on the forum and then he criticises a bloke whose only "sin" is to use his real name, only backwards. Talk about bloody cheek.

No Al, you are mistaken, I am not fixating on the fact that people can like and respect llig, thats entirely up to them, Birds of a feather and all that. Im not aiming to ‘win support’ as you say, so whether I get it or not is totally irrelevant. I simply feel his behaviour here, telling new poster to feck off, talking about smashing hands with a lump hammer, that kind of thing, is disgusting, thats it really.
Of course I disagree with much of what he says here, but thats a good point, the basis of discussion.. We can all discuss the varying issues putting our points across. I do object to the way he resorts to personal attack once his argument is shown to be hollow.[ see some recent bodhran discussions ]. . But thats behaviour its not the person, its the way he behaves. I hope he got the message and will moderate his behaviour in future.
Bye now, sun is shining!

Mr Pitchfork, that is not the category of sins to which was referring. I meant the hiding-of-identity-or-otherwise category of sins. Colm Murphy, whom I have seen on videos and heard on recordings but not seen live, is an excellent and tasteful player. I note, however, that you came up with just the one. Exceptions prove rules, y’know. 😉

If Michael was not on this forum I would lose all interest in it and never look in. That is not meant to tempt you to anything, Jeremy old chap. He may not suffer fools gladly and he may not always be the best judge of who the fools are, but the points he makes about this music are invariably thoughtful, measured and useful. And right, nearly always. I think there’s a fair amount of jealousy coming through in this thread.

…to which I was referring.

Ion (jig/tradpiper), rather than waste discussion thread space on your personal campaign against llig, why not leave the moderation of this board up to Jeremy, whose job it is? Or at the very least, take up your concerns with Jeremy by email, which is what he asks members to do?

Is Ion really jig? How ironic as it was him I was thinking about when I said:

"I was thinking about arguments I have heard that adult learners or even reasonably competant players should learn the tunes without the ornamentation until they can play the tunes up to speed and then, once they can do that then add the ornaments in afterwards. This is just idiotic advice and imprints the idea that ornamentation is just a few twiddly bits to add to the tunes rather than an integral part of the music."

So when I said that I wasn’t calling your practices idiotic Ion it was on the basis that you were not jig. If you are jig then that is a different matter entirely!

🙂

1. That is hardly a bodhran, more of a tambourine
2. Packie Russell looks in pain, could it be because of the clatter in his ear?

🙂

I think there was a discussion where jig and Ionannas were both posting, can’t find it now. One of them may have been able to manage that without it being obvious, but I don’t think the other one could.

LLig when I first came here you said this;

That’s no probs Ionannas. You are good to debate with, you quickly get to the crux of it and, quite rightly, challenge me.

and your musical tastes are extremely close to mine (which probably means you music is pretty similar also).

Yes, you are quite right that I’m confused with simple and easy.
# Posted on November 5th 2008 by llig leahcim

Now a few months later you tell me you dont want to debate with me, because its no fun? Perhaps because I still pull you up when you go to far?
Im sorry that things have turned out this way, I still bear you no ill will despite what the others say and despite what it might seem. I admit I have an annoying habit of digging up old quotes because I spend a lot of time online researching. I do enjoy the cut and thrust of spirited debate and it might be a lot duller here without you.

I can’t stand Christy’s bodhran playing! Why all the bodhran clips anyway sporting pitchfork?

… in so few words ( & not just concerning the drum)
" Just empty your mind and play it, it is a rhythm instrument, rhythm cannot be taught it is instinctive, or should be."

# Posted on April 17th 2009 by bodhran bliss

I didn’t say you’re brilliant, bliss, only your statement.
;)

just in case anyone brought popcorn …
rhythm can be taught, or at least learnt.
it may well be instinctive, humans often forget how to tap into something so basic.
so … relearnt

Every instrument played in ITM is a bloody rhythm instrument. The bodhran and its stable mates (spoons, bones, eggs, tambourines and the like) are rhythm instruments that can’t play tunes, in spite of John-Joe’s and his acolytes’ best efforts. They are a short-cut way into ITM for people who lack the patience, or talent, to play melody instruments. This music is all about the tunes, and anyone wishing to provide a bolt-on to them had better be bloody good. Such people are like rocking-horse sh i t, that’s the issue.

that’s what’s brilliant, Steve.
Your 1st statement.

Hmm, found it, that discusion did span the end of a jig suspension.

…but will Ion/jig/tradpiper own up to it? Nope, because he apparently believes his own publicity about how clever he is….

I remember being impressed at the way Will, llig and couple of others spotted tradpiper/jig/learner for what he was very early on. I had stopped reading jig’s posts (as llig once observed " he has read a lot of books" and I can do that for myself). If Ionnanas is the same person he is a lot better behaved in this persona; has kept the ball rolling quite nicely in several discussions.

It would surprise me, at least a little, if there were TWO cryptobiotic fiddlers in Clare with the same delusions of grandeur and penchant for demanding "evidence" while disparaging well-reasoned opinions….

Also, it struck me as odd that Ion erased all details in his bio as soon as some of us linked him to jig/tradpiper.

He never had anything in it to begin with. Altogether a shifty character.

this wouldn’t be the witchhunt thread, would it?

Of course it is, Random, that’s what llig responded to in the first place, and what Ion has pursued in every post on this thread.

zoukboy, I’m sorry that you are under resourced. However, my advice (take it or leave it, as ever) is to change the way you hear a nice tune on a CD, then look up the dots. Make your primary resource the CD, not this web site. I’m speaking from experience. There weren’t players around me when I was learning as a kid, I was under resourced. I listened to records and the radio.

gam. I love a good analogy and I’m charmed by your pool. It is much much better than my previous maze analogy (which I only came up with, by the way, to illustrate my personal experience of the realisation that it’s not a maze - even though that flew past Ionannas’s self confessed lack of a grasp of language). And could I elaborate that it is not a closed system? As the water evaporates, water from elsewhere is being constantly used to top it up.

With regards to Ionannas: I’ve met many of the people who post here. Meeting Zina was great. She was so exasperated with my online behaviour she always said that when she met me in person she’d give me a right good slap. And she did. And a good many people who I have not met directly have people they know in common with me. This is the nature of this specialist interest we have. It’s a small world.

But honestly, hands up anyone? Who’s knows Ionannas?

This thread to me really is just like a bunch of blokes (mostly blokes I assume?) in the talking bit in the middle of a session, or having a few pints after a race, or a game of football or something, enjoying a slightly macho good natured slagging match - the geezer who is getting the most slagging (MG) is just laughing it off and giving as good as he gets, remaining inscrutable and unflappable. And the conversation is now only loosely connected to the original topic. A bit of a larff. That’s why I for one can’t take it too seriously. Anyone who does take it more seriously needs to get out more to different sessions and meet different people. In my view.

Sorry Will. I thought for a second, well it doesn’t matter.
I have been working hard this week & have not had time to read the thread in it’s entirety. Apparently lonannas has tried to wreck one of our members.
I’ll go read everything. I hope I learn something.
This may take me a while.
later ~ cheers

Thanks Danny. May I call you Danny?
I’m taking that exceptional advice & I’ll play instead.
That’s why I come here anyway. To play.
;)

Yep, Random, do heed Danny’s take on this. Certainly not worth wading through that much slag. 😉

Mr.Llig

Cut the newbies some slack. Criticize and heap ridicule on the regulars as you like. But a kid who comes to this site looking for a little advice or information deserves some respect. Offer guidance in a more generous spirit. Imagine the person asking a question here is actually in your presence and treat her accordingly…

John Grover, I tried putting a sock in it once, but it burbled back up after flushing, and then water ran all over the floor, and some even leaked down around the floor boards, dripping out through a light fixture in the kitchen ceiling. Not at all a pleasant experience, so unless you have some personal experience in sock putting that you could perhaps enlighten us with, I’m afraid I’m hesitant to take your advice.

And pray tell, what on earth is it about this board that attracts people who can’t find the shift key for capitalization and also cram commas into every crevice without occasionally hitting the space bar? Is there some google misdirect that sends them here when they search for http://www.eecummings.org?

While we are on the topic, what is it about Americans that they insist of using a ridiculous amount of ‘z’s in words when the correct form would be ‘s’ e.g. capitalisation!

🙂

"Ionannas" - Is the first letter of that name an upper case "i", or is it a lower case "L"? The font on my PC doesn’t obviously distinguish between the two.

Copy and past it into notepad (or maybe the address bar of your browser). Its "i".

Thanks. It’s unwise to make assumptions about screen names here 😉

I’ve just been told on good authority that "ionannas" is Gaelic for "equality".
And there I was, thinking it might be a Greek word, the closest to which I could get was "ion", which means "the violet". Ah well.

http://www.columba.vic.edu.au/index.php?sectionid=+53

Apparently it means "identity"

Ah, apparently "Ionann" means ‘equal, alike, the same’

I too have suspicions about who is currently lurking behind what user names, and grammar errors, especially those which follow a consistent pattern over time, are part of those suspicions. As are the examples one raises to support their positions, and the way they structure their points. Even if one’s grammar improves over time, the clues are still there. There are some interesting speculations above, it will be interesting to see how things play out over time….

I put some grammar errors in that post, just to see if you were watching closely! (No, acutally, I just made them accidently, and didn’t notice them until I hit post.)
😉

I suspect that the forged llig-post of a few days ago was a different prankster though.

I do not know who is whom or who might be whom. It does not really matter. As far as the slagging goes it’s par for the course.
Will, I know you tried to bring civility back on board & fair play to you. Whether you like it or not, you’re simply human. Zina was the only super heroine. Now, she is civil. You gotta love her.

I do enjoy the conversations where we can drop our guard & just believe we are here for a common reason.

Thanks!!!

Yoda gave Luke a hand.

Fills so good to finally get that off my chest.
Yeah, right.
… then again I always like a good mystery.
you can change your browser font to distinguish l & I
(ion vs Lon)

in Firefox ~

Tools > Options > Content >
Fonts & Colors ——
Default font: Times New Roman
Advanced …
[uncheck] Allow pages to choose their own fonts,instead of my selections above
OK
OK

~ Happy sleuthing ~

Sometimes I loose 1 sock of a pair; but that’s a place I never thought of looking.
The plumber’s friend usually saves me before things get too messy;
http://home.howstuffworks.com/home-improvement/plumbing/how-to-repair-a-toilet2.htm

Pretty simple.

Feels plumbers’

Do you really?

NCA wrote:
"While we are on the topic, what is it about Americans that they insist of using a ridiculous amount of ‘z’s in words when the correct form would be ‘s’ e.g. capitalisation!"
This is a myth perpetuated and given force by Microsoft spell-checkers. It is true that the "s" formations are not American - they would be incorrect in American usage. But in the rest of the English-speaking world there are two ways of spelling these things. According to Microsoft, the "s" forms are correct for UK English and the "z" forms incorrect. The "s" method also has the advantage that you don’t have to understand why, even if you are using the "z" forms, things like "advertise" are still correct.
There are other good authorities - the OED for one - who consider the "s" forms to be incorrect. I seem to recall the "s" forms being a "Frenchification", and we wouldn’t want that, would we?
The most important thing, as with so much in language, is consistency. If I write about capitalization, I should of course write about advertising but not about modernisation. Personally, as a very English person, I follow the Oxford system, though I do make mistakes once in a while.

I follow The Guardian Style Book.

Shurely y’mean The Grauniad Style Book?

That’s waht I said

I also follow the Guardian stile book so stop acting like a right pair of ttis.

Now I believe this to be completely irrelevant and thus it may be safely ignored, but in Plato’s Dialogues there was a character by the name of "Ion" who had a run-in with the great philosopher Socrates. No prizes for guessing the outcome.

Funny, I was just reading Plato;
”The wing is the corporeal element which is most akin to the divine, and which by its nature tends to sour aloft and carry that which gravitates downwards into the upper region which is the habitation of the gods. The divine is beauty , wisdom, goodness and the like ; and by these the wing of the soul is nourished, and grows apace; but when fed upon evil and foulness and the opposite of good wastes and falls away . ”

So you prefer to copy it out rather than copy and paste, I take it. 😀

If all you have is a printed book then manual copying is presumably the only option easily available.

In the mean time the sweet melodic sound of the traditional music of the Gale can still be heard over the heavy deluge, that is the curse of the modern media driven age. This fact is surely amazing and cause for great celebration.

The very fact that traditional music has survived and continues to do so, from the attentions of the likes of Cosmic Meg the crusty and lone melody player with the "mass assembled bongos & pots newage drum corps" should fill our hearts with joy. So lighten up!

But is the reason it survives because we lighten up about Cosmic Meg? Or because we throw her and her stinky chums out of the pub?

The reason it survives is down to the fact that collective culture is far more robust than people often assume and we should be careful when we take it in our heads to champion it’s cause. As all to often such a cause is flawed by our miss interpretation of just what it is we seek to protect.

Collective culture is just that; collective, we are but one of one generation. The great Irish satire "Am Beal Boch" deals with this very issue when it parodies the Gaelic Revivalist movement. This book wasn’t well received when first published, but then the truth hurts. As attitudes relaxed and introspective critical analysis became socially acceptable the humor of this novel was seen for what it was.

I’ve no answer as to the problem of massed drums at the sesh. Maybe it has something to do with Jung’s concept of the collective and that dim primal collective memory that survives in people; signaling the urge for them to get involved but who are now so removed from an environment where joining in went hand in hand with some ability or understanding of what is acceptable, like dancing. What to do about them is another matter. Over the years I’ve learned to pick and choose my fights, just like the sessions I go to. If I win out 30% of the time and have a good tune and say good craic 60% of the time, well I figure I’m doing alright.

Yes, wise words. And I readily admit to having a certain naive arrogance in my quest to save the music from those that would "murder" it. I’m not sure what to do about.

However, wasn’t it while Jung was drumming with the band Crosby, Stills, Nash and Jung that he wrote "Man and his Cymbals"?

… not sure what to do about it

Quote:

"wasn’t it while Jung was drumming with the band Crosby, Stills, Nash and Jung that he wrote "Man and his Cymbals"?……"

I’ll need to remember that one, ha ha.

You do know what to do about it as you just answered your own question.

"The Music" may well survive Cosmic Smeg and her pals but that is small comfort when your night is being ruined. Much better just to show them the door!

Why stress yourself out about it though. If your in a pub then to some extent it’s a public domain and what is a problem for the music, is often profit for the bar. It’s an age old problem and go’s with the territory I’m afraid.

Who says I am stressed? 🙂

A new "friend" recently started hanging around our pub session. He plays the "invisible harmonica." We’re wishing it was inaudible, too. This guy gets tanked, then squeezes into the circle, cups his hands around his mouth, and starts moaning and wailing like a dog left out in the cold. Not quietly either—he’s louder than the war pipes and apparently just as untuneable…..

Most of my session mates are understandably put off by this, and he’s been told several times to stop. But I can’t say it’s bothered me—yet, at least. One time, after most of the circle had gone home, he wailed all the way through a somber fiddle duet on Archibald McDonald. Sure, it didn’t do much for the fiddles, but his ululations had a mournful, keening quality to them—I felt like we were at a mid-18th century fisherman’s wake in Ardnagreevagh….

Will, are you kidding me? Yikes.

Now there’s a case where the Llig method might prove to be the only recourse, if the polite method has failed. 😉

Yikes, Will!

We had a guy get loaded and play three bottles with a wooden spoon, but you’re story is the clear winner.

Just thought I’d butt in ( I think I’ve managed to avoid this debate so far ), since llig ( sorry, Retsim llig ), mentioned Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Jung, to come in with the story of when the ( very recently ) late Clement Freud was showing the master of the tin sandwich, the late Larry Adler, around the House of Commons, and they bumped into George Young, whom Clement introduced to Larry; at which point Larry pointed out that surely this was the only time when there’d been Freud, Young, and Adler in the same room.
Boom, boom !

Ouch, Gurnsey Pete, I will honor that one by holding my nose and running out of the room!

I have to admit that the Man and His Cymbals joke is not mine. It’s from a bloke I used to know but havn’t seen for 20 years, Rory Motion. The full text goes thus:

From the top of a double decker bus in Swiss Cottage I saw a bust of Sigmund Freud underneath which somebody had written, "W a n k e r". From the same bus a week later I noticed that somebody had erased the word "W a n k e r" and written in its place, "My insights spawned a hideous repression."

I passed it again a week later and somebody crossed that out and put, "W a n k e r".

Freaud reckoned the only reason we got out of bed in the morning was to have s e x, whereas Carl Jung gave us the credit for having a spiritual appetite. I like to think that Jung’s philosophical insights were enriched by his life as a musician with the band, Crosby, Stills, Nash and Jung. (It was during his time as a drummer with the band that he wrote his celebrated treatise, Man and His Cymbals).


There’s loads more from this genious of words:
http://www.rorymotion.com/rory_motion.htm

Is llig the actually quite attractive fiddle player to the left in the youtube ionannas posted? I would never have guessed. Don’t know why, but I suddenly feel much less annoyed and impatient with his rough exterior. To paraphrase somebody clever: if you don’t have anything nice to say, come sit next to me (if you look like llig).

54321, sorry to disappoint you, but No Cause For Alarm stated categorically on 17 April on his personal knowledge that neither of those fine fiddlers in that youtube video was llig.

Ahem - I actually said that neither of the fiddlers in the video with me was llig. I never passed comment on Ionannas’ video. I am not in Ionannas’ video.

I was once in an eposode of Taggart.

In Taggart, eh?

… but were you one of the good guys, or one of the bad guys? 😉

Or were you the body?

Why, I was an inconsequential extra … of course.

(though they did give me a close up of my reaction to seeing the body (well, one of them anyway - for anyone who’s not familiar with the programme, there’s always more than one) just before they cut to the ads.

He was the main suspect in the mystery of a bodhran that was fished out of the Clyde with a penknife stuck in it’s skin. It had been in the water for some time and had got a tad floppy, and the bizzies couldn’t lift any dabs.

One sure way to identify llig in any video taken at Sandy Bell’s - he’s one who’s not playing the bodhran 🙂

Since Taggart is a crime drama series, I reckon that this "inconsequential extra" was probably somebody on the fiddle … 😉

All I want to know is why they let a resident of Edinburgh on to that hallowed programme in the first place (without them being the psycho-killer)! 🙂

It was the episode in Deep Sea World in N. Queensferry - for anyone who collects the videos. A diver got stabbed and thrown in with the sharks. I was playing a school teacher in the perspex tunnel thing trying to shield the eyes of a bunch of school kids from the hemorrhaging artery of the unfortunate wet-suited cadaver. It was a fine piece of ham, though I say it myself.

Not sufficiently significant to feature in the cast list, then?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0248507/

As I said, I was an inconsequential extra.

"I was an inconsequential extra." I’m bloody having that tattooed on my gravestone. 🙁

what finally got cosmic ray’s discussion deleted?

just thought I would ask. It was a fairly innocuous post with many consecutive responses in a very short period of time.
It has gone missing & thought perhaps someone on this thread might be willing to shed some light on the matter. If not I’ll survive.
Cheers.
Google has an early cache;
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:njn_SVcWZfUJ:www.thesession.org/discussions/21350+peace+at+last+maybe%3F+the+session&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

I just don’t think Jeremy is comfortable with having created a discussion forum. I don’t think he likes it when we just blether. I think he’s fixated on his website being a "resource", not the inconsequential extras we actually are.

There was some good stuff on that thread about jigs and reels. But it was inconsequential, it doesn’t matter.

…ahhh, "good inconsequential stuff"—the best kind. 😉

With this board being database driven I think that you will find that mentioning his name will draw him to your post.

Steve
>I was an inconsequential extra." I’m bloody having that >tattooed on my gravestone

I don’t know Steve, I can’t help but feeling it is a mistake to put a difficult to spell word on a gravestone: we’re a long time dead.

-chris

Discussion submissions need to be relevant to Irish music. The thread I deleted did have some good stuff in it later on (so I felt bad about deleting it) but the subject matter of the thread in general wasn’t really anything to do with Irish music. It was more of a meta-thread about this site …and we don’t want any more of those now, do we?

Like I said, I did feel bad about deleting an off-topic thread that had some on-topic stuff buried in it. But it would be better to start a proper thread on that subject.

"Discussion submissions need to be relevant to Irish music"

That seems rather a harsh remit!

A lot of folks posting here play music from related traditions as well as Irish (e.g. Scottish). Has anyone NOT heard Tamlin / Jig of Slurs / Atholl Highlanders etc. played at so-called "Irish" sessions?

In a real-life session, all sorts of topics come up for discussion in beween playing tunes - so why not in a virtual session as well?

As long as no-one gets abusive, I can’t seen any harm in it.

I really dont see any strict dividing line between Scots And Irish music. They are but 2 aspects of a joint culture historically though obviously diverged in recent history.. IMO there is a bigger gap between Munster and Ulster than between Ulster and Alba musically.
I also hear Cape Breton tunes, the odd Balkan tune, Breton tunes etc at some sessions.

"Has anyone NOT heard Tamlin / Jig of Slurs / Atholl Highlanders etc. played at so-called "Irish" sessions?"

Ye - me.

Thank f*ck

It’s Jeremy’s website - he can set any "remit" he likes. Personally, I wish he’d enforce it more. If you want to discuss Scottish music, you’de be better off at "Footstompin’". And why shouldn’t "Tamlin" turn up in an Irish session ? - it was written by an Irishman.

Tamlin / Glasgow reel written by an Irishman? Well, I didn’t know that. Maybe what you say is true.

But you miss my point Kenny. A good trad tune is a good trad tune, and personally I couldn’t give a monkey’s uncle whether Tamlin (or indeed any other trad tune) "Irish" or not.

As you say, it is Jeremy’s website, and its his decision what to allow or disallow.

But based on his last statement, he would need to delete a significant percentage of the existing discussions AND the tunes.

Is that really what most members would want?

The two are so closely related that I have better things to worry about than whether the tune I just learned is Irish or Scottish. Rigid distinctions seem to be more of a modern phenomenon — old collections like O’Farrell’s and O’Neil’s have tunes from both sides of the Irish sea. If O’Farrell can have strathspeys and tunes with names like "The Dunkeld Hermitage," I think we can happily discuss them on this site.

It’s even more muddled here where you got a big musical goulash of Irish and Scots leading to Old-Timey. Some of us do bother to drill down and make the distinction, though. 😉

Well said, Silver Spear!

Kenny - BTW, I’ve just checked out that "footstompin" site that you mentioned …

… a horrible commercial site, albeit that it does contain a forum. Ugh! I won’t be revisiting it, that’s for sure. …. 🙁

so … there was some good information about jigs & reels which I did not have a chance to read & Jeremy, you felt bad about deleting it.
So what is some of the good information.
Michael, I think Jeremy is all too aware of the consequences of mustard members. I bet you’re having the best time of your life right now. Maybe you could ask Jeremy if you can sit in the driver’s seat for 1 week. Now that would be interesting.
Of course once Jeremy got the reins back the 1st thing he would ask, "Where’d you put the *Tunes* section Gill?"

@SWFL Fiddler. I’ve often wondered what exactly defines a tune as being "old-timey"?

I suppose tunes like "Soldier’s Joy" and "Old Joe Clark" are considered to be "old-timey" tunes.

…. And I’ve heard these played at "Irish" sessions as well !

Random - I would have that that the answer was obvious.

Llig would put the tunes section in the same place as he would put any discussions involving bodhrans …. 😉

You mean they would both be in the new category created by Llig ~ https://thesession.org/inconsequentialextras ?

Hey Mix, it’s the flavor, the way they play them. Take an Irish or Scottish tune, add shuffle bowing, twangy swang, etc. Voila!

An over-simplification of many years of musical evolution, to be sure, but that’s the general idea. 😉

In the enclaves of Irish America, such things didn’t occur, but where the music mixed, osmosis occured, etc. More over-simplification, of course. HA!

http://www.oldtimeherald.org/archive/back_issues/volume-6/6-6/20-recordings.html

Let’s hear it for the three-twos (including nine-fours)! Rousing hornpipes, not obviously from Irish, Scottish or Welsh traditions (as far as I am aware), but still with their own special niche in Tunes.

Northumbrian Tunes
Posted on December 6th 2002 by Dow
https://thesession.org/discussions/1126

" The Lads Of Alnwick "
Submitted on December 10th 2002 by Dow
https://thesession.org/tunes/1194

I didn’t miss any point. A good Irish tune is a good Irish tune and a good Scottish tune is a good Scottish tune. To regard them as the same is an insult to both traditions.

@Kenny - nobody is saying that they are the same - only that they are related. For this reason, there are plenty of people who like to play both. I hope that you would agree that ITM has more in common with STM than it does with (say) jazz, rock or classical?

I any case, there are plenty of tunes that occur in several traditions, and it’s not always possible to identify origin with absolute certainty.

This is hardly surprising anyway, given the migrations of people between Scotland, Ireland, England etc - historically, and right through to the present day.

And what about the instruments that are used? For example, the violin (fiddle) as we know it today originated in 16th century Italy. Perhaps you would like to ban that, as it’s not a "proper" Irish instrument?

SWFL, what exactly is "shuffle bowing"? I ask because I’m learning ‘Cherokee shuffle’ on the banjo right now. It’s really fun to play.
An amazing mandolin duo here:
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=11711248

Ramiro - as I understand it, shuffle bow involves one long bow stroke followed by two short bow strokes.

One of the tunes that I mentioned above (Old Joe Clark) lends itself to playing using this style of bowing.

Hi Ramiro, Mix has got the idea. Nifty link here:

http://violin-viola-violoncello.suite101.com/article.cfm/learn_to_fiddle_with_the_nashville_shuffle

It ends up sounding a bit like ‘HUCK-le-BER-ry’ or ‘ONE two THREE four’ which is really unsuitable for Irish or Scottish fiddling, as the stress should be on the ‘one’ only…well, you know. Leave that simplified, no sense in cracking open that can of worms in here, this thread is long enough! 😉

Kenny - to return for a moment to your comment regarding the origin of Tam Lin / Glasgow reel, you said that it was written by an Irishman. Who was his name, and what evidence do you have to support this?

The title: "Tam Lin" would seem to be a reference to the Tam Lin of Scottish legend, and the last time that I looked, Glasgow was definitely in Scotland.

If the tune was indeed written by an Irishman, why these seemingly references to Scotland?

Please spill the beans!

Thanks for the additional info, SWFL!

And as you say, this discussion could turn out to be the longest ever thread with the shortest title …. 😉

Thanks MIx and SWFL, that link clarified some things for me.

And there was I, just listening to that seminal 80s pop CD. It was actually the first CD I ever bought.

llig my man, you ARE ‘The Sledgehammer’!

there can be no doubt about it

How did we get on this topic? I don’t know…

Sure, Ireland and Scotland have two separate musical traditions that have infiltrated each other A LOT over, well, hundreds of years. I mean, back in the Middle Ages Irish and (Highland) Scots spoke the same language. A lot of Highland clans had family connections to Ireland — indeed, closer family and cultural ties there than to Lowland Scotland — and migration between the two countries was and continues to be a pretty common thing.

Just picked up silver spears latest by clicking on the comments bit of discussions. Actually the continuum of Gaelic culture in Ireland and Scotland continued well into the 16th and even 17th century. That lasted from the invasion of Western Scotland led by Fergus McErc (Dalriada) in 474AD, so there existed over 1200 years of ABSOLUTE linguistic and cultural homogeneity, not to mention another several hundred years of DERIVED linguistic and cultural homogeneity, where we as Scots, especially like me those with Highland roots, have continuously questioned our assimilation into a Germanic culture.

Michael, surely you’re talking about the "Celtic Wedding" cd by the Chieftains (1986)….

It’s funny remembering back to those days when people had only half a dozen CDs. Mine were, in order:

So
Hounds of Love
Beethoven’s 7&8 (Klemperer)
After the break
Perlman, Encores
Dark Side of the Moon

And "So" was the first CD out of possibly 100 or so that wasn’t a vinyl replacement

In the "Tain" (dated to around BC/AD + or - 100 years, based on styles of fighting: with chariots, heroic single combat and pagan motif etc…….) Cu Chullain heads off to Alba to learn the higher arts of war from Scathach and Co, depending on which version/fragment you read. The point being that these islands have common cultural links that go all the way back to the dawn of human habitation. Cumric warriors from the 9th century west of what is now england found employment with war bands in Ireland just as readily as they did in Wales because the culture was common, if not language.

The idea that people moved wholesale from one area to another is a myth that has been scorched by modern archeology, zero proof for it. All we have to say 1000’s of people moved around is a written record, which didn’t record the workingman, old records recorded the fortunes of the aristocratic management. When Erc came from dalriada Ulster to Dalriada Argyll in 505 he came with 105 followers suggesting this was no invasion but a mutual change of manager, ie; by consent.

Historians have taken great glee in debunking the invasion myths of these islands and highlighting differences between. Now finally there is general acceptance that the last great invasion myth, the Saxon invasion myth (held onto because of Anglo centric bias in an emerging modern education system of the 17 & 1800’s to show how the English differed from the uncouth neighbours) is just that, a myth. Not surprising then that around 80% of people on these islands share common DNA. That the english had a saxon change of management is hardly surprising when you consider the proximity and common heritage of the northsea basin. But despite linguistic differences east coasters are still first cousins of those on the west.

Our Viking mates are the exception of course but all we have left of them are the odd Y chromosomes. And even the Vikings of the Western Isles were regarded as “Gallgahle”, ie, not from round these here parts, but still to a large extent gales with increasingly cross bread Viking aristocrats in charge. Even the Norse sagas get a little shy about admitting the Gaelic influence on the Norse Atlantic adventures (the navigator of Leaf’s vinland saga had a gaelic name, again not too suprising when you consider it was Irish clergy who discovered Iceland, the Vikings bought in to local technology that was available where they settled they only killed the management, it being bad economic policy to top the tax paying public).

When planters were being planted in Ulster, planters were also planted in Kintyre, with Ayrshire men. That gaelic influence extended from Kinsaile to dunnet head pre plantation and that it still dose to this day, tells something of the strength of the culture of the gale. The then powers that be, rightly saw the twelve miles from Southend to Fairhead as a cultural umbilical which they needed to sever to tame the wild Irish (which is what they called the people on both sides of the water even in Sir Wally Scott’s time). That modern Irish political ideas took root in the west and western isles in the 1800’s should be no surprise either, it was with the influence of the land league that led the way for it and the land raiding conflicts post clearances, such as the Battle of the Braes and the Glendale raid being best documented, show that the radical gale was not confined to paddy’s green shamrock shore (but then that’s Skyemen for you). This was only resolved when Irish MP’s helped the crofting act through the commons,

The modern political boarders we have come to identify with our cultural identity are only a few generations old. Our culture is much stronger than that, even if many refuse to see it. So is it any surprise we readily play and appreciate each other’s music?

PS sorry for the lecture

Mix O’Lydian – why should I have to provide you with proof for anything ? Look it up yourself, you lazy sod. Does the word “Google” mean anything to you ? But since you asked, I know who wrote “Tamlin” because I heard him play it in “Sandy Bell’s” in Edinburgh, and asked him about it, and he told me. This was before he had recorded it himself, and certainly before anyone else had. Is that good enough for you ?

Hey there, careful. Don’t go calling people a "sod". You’ll get the entire thread deleted.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=tamlin

@Kenny - my question to you was quite polite, so why get abusive and sarcastic? There simply is no need for it.

And for the record, I did actually Google Glasgow / Tam Lin, and found nothing regarding the origin of the tune.

So currently (in the absence of any other evidence) , the whole thing turns on what you were told in a pub. Do you believe unquestionably everything that you are told in pubs?

Back in the 1990s, Gordon Brown (when chancellor of the exchequer) set up the FSA (Financial Services Authority) to safeguard us from the excesses of the banking system. Did you believe that as well?

And I notice that you’ve gone very quiet regarding your other rash statements, which have already been countered by posters other than myself …

In this instance the resource provided for us by Jeremy
https://thesession.org/tunes/248
is more useful

Kenny Tamlin’s myth is represented in a body of scots folklore from the scottish boarders of which there are many songs most of which are very old. So if some hippy in Bells wrote a song about Tamlin then it’s more reflective of the commonality of faerie folk in our respective cultures (common culture) than one or the other. Phonetically in Gaelic the difference between Shee & Shean is regional we are talking about the same thing.

Thomas the Rhymer (may well be the same chap) is from the same area but just because an English folk band sang about him dose that make the Rhymer English?

than Google, that is

And here was me thinking it was afro-carribean : http://imaginedvillage.com/audiovideo/14/

In the comments posted against the tune Tam Lin / Glasgow here on the session, it says:

Composition credited to Dublin musician Davey Arthur (originally from Edinburgh, Scotland).

So (if this is true) it isn’t trad anyway, and if it was written by a Scotsman, it must be Scottish …. 😉

Scottish *boarders*, Solidmahog?

Unless your are referring to scots residing in lodging houses, it’s Scottish "Borders".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davey_Arthur
Where does that leave us ?

… or perhaps you are referring to that infamous Scottish "boarder" Gordon Brown. IMHO he has "boarded" on MPs’ expenses here long enough, and the sooner that he goes back to Scotland, the better …. 😉

"Where does that leave us?"

It makes him Irish - so perhaps some of the vitriol and lack of respect shown to Kenny could stop.

Personally, and quite obviously, I have no problem with Scottish tunes on this site and have posted quite a few myself. I do see a shared heritage between the traditions although I do not believe they are one and the same. Kenny is perfectly entitled to his views, which is basically the view expressed in the stated aims of the website if not the application of it. And some folk on this site need to grow up!

"the sooner he goes back to Scotland, the better …."

That smells like racism to me!

What about Scottish snow boarders?

And I’m amazed that this thread has gone on so long without a mention of schrodinger’s cat. I think tunes can exist in two simultaneous states of being both Scottish and Irish. It’s only when you take them out of the box that they reveal which they are, by being played in one or the other style.

Alright Mr Mix you big jotter marker you. Maybe I was getting a little confused with "scottish snow boarders" after all. I trust you’ll excuse my slip of tenses and refrain from telling my mum.

Hmm .. if Scottish snowboarders were snowboarding on the Scottish borders, then sayed in a boarding house in Galashiels, would they be boarders on the Scottish borders?

Solidmahog - I think that it was homophones rather than tenses where the slip-up occurred …. 😉

I suspect I am not the only one around here who finds that their fingers, if allowed to get along unsupervised, get the homophones mixed up and that this little box is not the best place to spot it. I used to think you were all using voice recognition.

No Cause - the last time that I looked, Edinburgh was in Scotland. So someone born there would be Scottish.

If I emigrated to Spain, that wouldn’t make me Spanish.

Vitriol and lack of respect to Kenny? As I recall, it was Kenny that was throwing the vitriol, not me.

Sure, everyone here is entitled to their views. But don’t confuse an expression of a view with a statement of fact. Either a tune is of known authorship, or it is not.

Davey Arthur was born in Donegal - and I’m done arguing with idiots. Bye.

Mix - can you actually read or do you just selectively read the information provided and ignore all the bits that show you are wrong.

I was born in Glasgow and moved to England when I was 3. I only moved back when I went to Uni. I am Scottish.

Davey Arthur was born in Donegal and moved to Scotland at the age of 2. He returned to Ireland at 18. He is Irish.

It is not difficult.

This thread is like having a conversation with my ex. Logic and truth are overpowered by stupidity and refusal to listen, reason, or simply think. Partly because it’s me, and god forbid I be right about anything. But mainly because she chooses to ignore the vast majority of her brain.

I love closed minds. They make me feel so gorram superior.

No Cause

Why is it that peple like you and Kenny like to turn a friendly discussion into an argument by resorting to abuse and sarcasm?

Yes I CAN read.

Here is that link that I viewed which started that Davey Arthur was born in Edinburgh.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=52012803

And yet now I read that he was born in Donegal, but moved to Edinburgh at the age of two.

It serves to remind us all that anything you read on the Internet should be regarded with suspicion.

What difference does it make, anyway?

I suspect that anyone who continually bangs on about the "purity" of Irish music is probably some kind of nationalist or racist, anyway …

Or you could have read the wikipedia link provided much earlier.

Plenty of people have been born in one country, moved to another and considered the latter to define their nationality.
or, identified with both countries.

If someone immagrates here from another country and choses to identify themselves as scottish, I don’t have a problem with it. Nor with their neighbour who emigrates here and still choses to think of themselves as Martian (or wherever is relevant). Nor with the person who thinks as themself as both scottish-something else.

A side-issue perhaps, in the current discussion. But still…

I have never "banged on" about the purity of Irish music and I suspect neither has Kenny.

Kenny pointed out that he knows it was written by an Irishman because he met that Irishman who played the tune in the pub and talked about it before the tune was known to everyone.

You then, continued to doubt him because it was only a pub tale. You knew better because you read so on the internet in a comment by "Celtic Harpistry".

Anyway, I don’t care about all of that. The reason I am p*ssed off with you is down to your Gordon Brown go home comment. That is surely racist and as a Scot I object. The fact that I disagree with the man’s politics, handling of the economy or attitude are neither here nor there.

If someone moves to Scotland and then associates themselves with Scotland or calls themselves Scottish then I have no problem with that at all. Fantastic, the more the merrier!

I wouldn’t want them to feel that need to be one or the other though. I would like to think that their origins and heritage would be important to them. It is part of what makes them who they are and shouldn’t be surrendered - although I realise that is not what you meant ramblingpitchfork. I just wouldn’t want anyone to think that I was excluding people born outside Scotland from claiming Scottishness.

I liked Michael’s schrondinger’s cat analogy — probably one of the more intelligent posts thus far on this thread.

Just thought I’d add that throughout the 1500s and 1600s, there was a fair share of cross-Irish-sea cattle raiding and other military enterprises. Highland clans (depending on their political situation and alliances) were on both sides during rebellions in Ireland during the late 1500s. For example, there were 600 Highlanders — probably MacNeils of Barra — raiding in Mayo in 1589. Two years later, that area again faced more Highlanders raiding. These were not political skirmishes, but there were plenty of those as well. It seemed to Irish authorities in 1584-85 that James, King of Scots, was cultivating a rebellion, sending Scots to all four provinces of Ireland. Queen Elizabeth was concerned about this, since all these armies gathering at England’s weakest flank posed a threat to her. She ended up dealing with the threat by offering land and sums to various chiefs, so as to fracture the allies themselves. For instance, Angus MacDonald’s allegiance to the Scottish Crown was quite loose, since he was happy enough to be a sworn subject of Elizabeth and foreswear any further attempts to send men to Ireland when he thought it could get him the Glens.

Later, in the 1590s, the Earl of Tyrone (who’s own alliances were quite shifty) rose in rebellion in Ulster. He found himself unable to engage the services of Highlanders, as he had previously murdered a fellow named Shane McHugh, who was a relative of the MacLeans and also his rival as chief of the O’Neill clan. Both the MacLeans and the Duke of Argyll were opposed to him. The other guy leading the rebellion, Hugh O’Donnell, also had difficulties enlisting the help of Highland clans since the Macleans and MacDonalds wouldn’t serve together due to a feud. The Irish rebels sent Angus MacDonald a letter in Gaelic asking for his help, but Angus was more interested in hanging onto the Glens.

O’Donnell, who as I said above hadn’t started feuds with Highland clan chiefs, was more succesful at securing the aid of several chiefs, including Donald Gorm of Sleat (son of Angus, who wasn’t bound by his father’s promise to stay out of trouble) and MacLeod of Harris. They successfully blockaded Enniskillen Castle and laid beseiged a castle in Mayo and plundered and ravaged country all the way to Galway.

Later that year, alliances shifted again — Angus MacDonald was apparently fostering Tyrone’s son and Argyll had plans to marry Tyrone’s daughter. Obviously these new developments between Irish and Scottish chiefs worried the governor-general of Ireland. Essex, then the governor-general, tried to negotiate with the Highland chiefs for their military services. The English couldn’t quite get enough money together for the elaborate negotiations to work, but nonetheless it succeeded in thwarting Tyrone’s and O’Donnel’s planned rebellion.

I’m going to stop now as this could go on forever (and it’s a lot of work figuring out who was allied with who, what, where, and when, as it changes all the bloody time). My point is that Ireland and Scotland have had a very close and complicated relationship. Modern political boundaries are just that — modern political boundaries.

perhaps we may share tunes with strangers yet not fear the assumed consequences. This of course flies in the face of MG’s mission statement.

Ha. I didn’t know this was still going.
Mix, you are doing a fine job filling in for jig…

https://thesession.org/discussions/3705/comments#comment74894
Re: Sessions ARE public performances?
Posted on June 4th 2004 by Kerri Brown

Why thanks for that, Hugo .. Well, I think thanks, anyway … 😉

awildman that link that was posted didn’t actually work on my machine.

No Cause …. Consider this.

If you had an Englishman presiding over the Scottish Assembly, and he totally screwed up the economy, I’m certain that there would be calls to send him packing.

Apart from anything else, he’s just introduced an escalator duty on beer, which will do even more damage to our session pubs.

If you like him so much, you’re are welcome to have him back.

My comment wasn’t aimed ay yourself, nocause, nor indeed at anyone else.

It was an aside I wanted to make as increasingly these days the mass media appears happy to help cultivate a distrust of the foreigner

- chris

mix:

Gordon brown aint presiding over england, but all of the uk. which currently includes england and several other nations (or sections of). If he’s presiding over the uk, where are you going to send him packing to ? the uk? wait, he’s already there.

Plenty of englishmen (and one notorious woman) have presided over the uk and watched it rot in the past, including scotland as a constitutive part of that political entity.

Plenty of scottish people reswnted this, particulraly when there appeared to be a vindictive elemnt directed against scotland (as eg was widely percieved to be the case with thatchers governemnt )

I have a certain amount of sympathy with sentiment against unpopular policies, that won’t apply in scotl;and, being forced through in england and wales by scottish mps. But if you think this is on anything like the scale that was inflicted on scotland throughout the 80s and 90s, you are kidding yourself. Rememeber for much of that time scotland had precisely NO conservative mps.

England is not, and never has been quite so patently united against a current uk government (at least since unversal sufferage he inserted just in case 🙂). How could it be when england dominates every uk election numerically.

And finally. I’ve no time for the mass murdering basket war criminal and won’t be voting for him. But do you honestly blame the economic distaster that the uk (& the world) is going through simply on gordon brown? or is there some political motivation for the finger ponting.

GB does carry a big chunk of the blame, as does all of new labour for continuing to allow the bankers and financial sectors to do whatever they wanted following the creed instigated by thatcher. Are yous eriously going to suggest the city etc would have been under a tighter regulation under the conservatives?

- chris

This place is beginning to sound like footstompin.

Chris has just put it better than I was going to.

Just a couple of points to add.

1. If an Englishman was the First Minister of Scotland in the Scottish Parliament and he made a mess of things then there may be calls for him to be "sent packing" but I certainly wouldn’t be one of the people suggesting evicting him from the Country.

2. I have already said I don’t like him as our Prime Minister (not that that makes any difference to your distasteful comments)

3. As Chris said, we can’t have him back because we haven’t given him over. I apologise to Jeremy for the political comment but if you are not happy with the situation then sort out Devolution or Independence for yourself. There may be issues with Scottish MPs voting on purely English matters in order to push the Government’s legislation through just like Scotland got the Poll Tax first and so forth because of English Tory MPs. One group of Scottish MPs who do not vote on purely English matters is the SNP group who, on principle only vote on matters that affect Scotland as part of the UK.

As an aside there are a number of SNP MSPs who are originally from England. Why does that matter?

Anyway this thread is meant to be about music and not politics so that is my last word on this matter.

@Rambling Pitch

I’ve nothing against Scotsman - apart from one *particular* Scotsman, that is! I have plenty of friends and aquaintances that are Scottish (and Irish too) and we all get along just fine. I’m no nationlist, and to underline that I would tell you that I like to play trad tunes from all the various regions of the "British" Isles. I have no time for people who glare at you at session because you play a good tune that doesn’t happen to be Irish. And I’m talking about sessions in *England*, mind you. Suppose I started up an "English" session in Ireland. Would I glare at someone if they played an Irish tune in the session? I don’t think so!

Scots in general, fine. Scottish politics, that’s a different matter. Millions of pounds of taxpayers money wasted on that Scottish Assembly building, for a start.

There’s plenty of history about the English invasions of Scotand, Edward 1st and so on. However, if I remember my history correctly, Scotland actually *asked* to join with England (Act of Union) because it had got itself into economic difficulties. If it wants to go back to being an independant nation, that’s fine by me. But not this current half-way house nonsense, with the English taxpayer subsidising Scotand.

Try moving south of the border. You”ll find yourself paying for university tuition fees and prescriptions. If you become incapable of looking after yourself, they’ll sell your house to pay for it, and your children will be denied their inheritance. No frozen council tax here - we’ve just had two years of 5% plus increases.

Try a long motorway river crossing. Not £1, as in Scotland, but £5 plus. No freedom to camp in the wild, as in Scotland, and if you try canoeing in rivers or lakes, you’ll either pay through the nose for it, or the bailifs will be down on you like a ton of bricks, and you’ll be taken to court and fined.

"United" Kingdom - that’s a laugh ….

Mix - you have mail!

No Cause for Alarm - thank you for your email …!

Also thank you for expanding on the events which led to the Act of Union. And my apologies for referring to your "parliament" as an "assembly". Slip of the pen, or rather the keyboard. But we don’t even have an English assembly, let alone an English parliament. How can that be fair?

As you agree, you enjoy many benefits in Scotand not enjoyed by those south of the border. You say that you voted for them - that’s good. But would you have been able afford to vote for them without the benefit of an English subsidy? Unless of course the information contained in this (example) link is incorrect:

http://news.scotsman.com/governmentspending/Political-row-brews-as-Scottish.2686652.jp

This is one reason why I would be in favour of independence for Scotland. If Scotland were independent, there would would be no subsidy from England, and English taxpayers would then have a fair deal - which they are not getting at the moment And there would be no issues of voting regarding Scottish MPs, as there wouldn’t be any Scottish MPs.

I spent quite a while driving around Scotland last year - on beautifully maintained roads. Quite different from the potholed equivalants encountered south of the border. And hardly a speed camera in sight, once north of Glasgow. Those things are all over the place down here. One momentary lapse of concentration, and then a swingeing fine and an increase in your insurance premium. Its another stealth tax that we have to put up with.

Everywhere that I went everything seemed to be very well-heeled and well-to-do in comparison to eqivalent places in England. Not much poverty in evidence. I didn’t though visit the poor districts of Glasgow etc., but then again there are many English cities with equivalent poor districts.

Great mountain scenery, and great people - as I have already indicated. Not to mention the financial advantages.

But for family commitments (and the midges and the dark winter evenings), I would be emigrating there tomorrow … 🙂

… And my canoe, by tent and my mountain-walking boots would then be getting a lot more use than they are getting at the moment … 🙂

Best wishes

*Sigh*

Re a lack of an English Parliament - I agree with you 100%. It is not fair but again it is not the fault of Scotland or Wales. We campaigned and voted for Devolution for a long time. The idea of regional devolution was proposed by Tony Blair’s Government and got short shrift.

Re the subsidy (or the Barnett Formula as that is what we are talking about) then that is not just a Scotland thing but applies elsewhere too and is based on geography and population density and is part and parcel of "governing" a Geographically diverse collection of nations.

But:

Factor in the oil and gas which, conservative estimates put as 80% Scottish, factor in the "UK wide spending" on defence, specifically Trident (which we don’t want) and then take account of the general way that, not just Scotland, but everywhere outside London and the South-east has been abused and under-invested in for centuries and you see the real picture of this "Union".

The question of who is subsidising who is hotly debated but the OECD agrees that it is Scotland subsidising England. I will go with that.

When former governor of the Bank of England (Eddie George) was quoted as saying that it is ok to sacrifice jobs in the North in favour of prosperity in the South then you get the real picture.

It is not just a case of Scotland getting a raw deal - it is the case of all of the North being "pillaged" for Centuries. Yes the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government is better at delivering what the people want than Westminster but it is a careful financial balancing act.

Who is paying for the London Olympics?

Anyway I have just broken my promise not to post on here (which is why I sent you an email in the first place).

Many apologies Jeremy.

I am going back to watch Cadfael now! 🙂

Oh and should you drift North of the border any time soon feel free to drop in on our humble Dundee session on the Tuesday night.

Or better still Girvan next weekend.

You’re not posting on this website anymore? Or just this thread?

Just on that political discussion above. I am not ready to abandon the site.

@No Cause - you are right - we should be talking about the music - not politics. Enough said on that topic

However, the reason that I got drawn into it in the first place arose from a verbal attack on me from a certain person. I always try to be helpful, reasonable and polite here on the session. That all changes if someone becomes rude or abusive - then I just reply in kind.

I’ll keep that invitation to attend you Dundee session in mind (assuming, hopefully, not wrongly) that the invitation was intended for me?

BTW - do you play Irish tunes, Scottish tunes - or a mixture of both?

The invitation was for you and anyone else who might want to come along.

It is a mix of Scottish and Irish tunes although there is usually more Irish.

Thank you, No Cause.

We have a wide choice of sessions to go to in my neck of the woods - almost one for every night of the week if you are so inclined. Bristol is noted for having a very strong music scene generally, and that extends into trad. Maybe that’s why we’re paying those higher taxes … 😉

If you are ever visiting the (sunny?) south, just send me an email and I will supply you with up-to-date info.

In case anyone still has doubts about the provenance of the reel Tam Lin:

http://www.daveyarthurmusic.com/The%20Fureys%20And%20Davey%20Arthur%20-%20Tamlin.mp3

I’ve only just come to this site, and am still exploring its many wonders. I amamazed to learn,for example that musicians musn’t share tunes via musical notation because those tunes will inevitably end up being murdered. With hindsight I see that this is in fact very true. We all know that every time we hear a tune played badlythat’s because it was learned from a book, while every time we hear a tune played well, it was because it was learned by listening to some master-performer.Obviously O’Neill, Bunting, Kerr, the Northumberland Piper’s Society, the EFDSS, etc. etc.etc. wasted everybody’s time printing tunes that ought by rights have been allowed to disappear rather than suffer the indignity of being tortured to death. I have decided therefore stop playing most of the tunes in my repertory because I now discover that I have for years been playing them badly. Clearly,musicians do not have the nous to take a tune from print and turn it into a musical performance using their understanding of what music should sound like. I wonder that the likes of Beethoven, Bach, Mozart etc etc etc never understofd that before thowing their lives away on such a pointless pursuit as composing. And what price Turlough o’Carolan now? I wouldn’t give him house-room.

So …

You think that sarcasm will settle this? You can be as amamazed as much as you want, but at least have the intelligence to read the quote correctly.

1. You shouldn’t share tunes with strangers via musical notation. You’ve no idea how they might murder them.

… which, of course, renders your little rant meaningless. Sorry.

Musicans that would murder these tunes aren’t your everyday trad musician.
If llig was to give me a jig on a sheet with dots I’d probally be able to learn it because Ive played the music enough to recognise its internal swing and learn most tunes by ear, I’d know if sounded right or not, if not I’d drop it.
If llig was to give some eijit who thinks he great and he "murders" the tune, he won’t be the type of musician who would left into any decent session and I believe he wouldn’t be of influnce others.

I can’t really disagree with that. Except that if he is gonna murder a tune, I’d rather it wasn’t one I loved. But that’s just me being selfish I suppose. So go ahead, murder away.