I was listening to an interview of Barbara Streisand on NPR as I drove to work this morning. Streisand does not read sheet music. Never has. Never learned to. When asked how she learns her music she responded that she listened to a song over and over until she learned the melody and the words. Then she made the song her own.
I will never own a Barbara Streisand album, but my opinion of her went up a notch. She missed her calling as an Irish musician.
Richard
Didja know that Kenny Rogers is the same way? Or so I heard. I wanted to ask him when our stunt troupe performed at his birthday party one year and he “rescued” me, the lady sheriff, from the baddies by bashing them over the head with a breakaway guitar, once he was done waving at the wildly screaming audience (leaving us borking desperately to cover up the time as Dale and Tim menaced me a lot longer than we’d planned)…but I didn’t. ;)
Zina
What’s so great about not being able to do something? It’s certainly important to have a good hearing, but musicians who can’t read will always be dependent, needing a baby-sitter who sings or plays the tune for them, so that they can learn it by ear. Playing by ear is an essential skill, but I don’t see why anybody should boast about not being able to read? Does education make you unpure or unworthy of being a trad musician?
Yes, but musicians who can only read are always dependent on somebody writing down or compiling the music for them whether in books, handwritten, or online.
While we both might regard a good ear as essential, there are many musicians--often technically excellent--who are incapable of playing without music or at least haven’t tried. I’ve known some fiddle players at various strathspey and reel societies who have been playing the same tunes “off the paper” for years and yet don’t seem to be able play without the music. I can’t understand this as even those tunes I have learned from the music will eventually seep into my brain and I can dispense with the “written crutch”.
John
Not really having a music background, I learned to play by ear and also made an effort to learn to read by the dots as well. Honestly, I learn all my tunes by ear from “babysitters”, CD’s and mini disc recordings (slowed down!)…..but sometimes if I forget how a tune starts, I am able to look it up in a tune book or the internet and refresh my memory just by reading a few beginning notes. I also like to browse through tune books with my whistle just sampling what a tune might sound like…..if I find one I really like, I go find a recording in my collection to learn it from or ask my flute teacher to record it for me……so my point is that it’s useful and can be helpful to be able to read the dots, but learning Irish Traditional tunes off sheet music is not for me……
Joyce
I guess that we are unevenly blessed (qualitatively not quantatively) regarding which KIND of, and distribution of gift/desire/ability/intelligence etc. we posess. Some say that there are 7 intelligences! Visual, auditive, spiritual, more….
If you are both very strong visually AND auditively I don’t see any problems in using sheetmusic and transform it into another medium: music.
Regardless of which way, and in which combinations you use sheetmusic/music, you (I) should use it in your own way. A keep on refining your method. DIXI!
I think that the ability to read is equally important as learning by ear. If you are restricted to the latter you are always dependent on someone having previously recorded the tune or at least having played it at a session. I can think of many great tunes I’ve never heard anyone playing (Garrett Barry’s reel and Molly in the Lane are ones which immediately come to mind) which I got from notation. Also you may put a different interpretation on the tune (more of an individual style) when you haven’t heard it played before. I would agree strongly with John J, however, that tunes must be learnt off and that sheet music has no place in a session - apart from occupying an extra chair for the music book, there’s no way a tune can be played in a geniunely traditional manner if not in the memory of the performer (as someone once said “no tadpoles in trad sessions”).
listening and learning by ear is not bad. and it is a technique/method that is underestimated by our ruling culture - it is essential to how irish music and tradition live on ( it would not live on if we all just learn it by notes).
the most important thing about listening and learning by ear is, if you practice this capability you are able to pick up and learn tunes quicker than any dot reader can…. (but to come that far needs time - years - so most musicians chose the easy way and read their dots and never understand what is the great benefit of “trust your ears and forget what you see”)
the non dot readers don
This topic comes up every so often here, and I’m always surprised that the discussions tend to focus on the extremes. In contrast, most of the musicians I run into can both learn by ear and read the dots, and they aren’t held prisoner by either approach.
Yes, I know there are people who can’t play without the dots in front of them, but they’re not very common at most Irish sessions, eh? And their shortcomings shouldn’t tarnish the abilities of those of us who can read the dots, just because we can. Being able to sight read has no ill effect whatsoever on my ability to learn and play tunes by ear.
Is it just that people who haven’t learned to read music yet, and people who haven’t learned to play by ear yet are equally insecure about it?
Besides, I think somebody hijacked Richard’s innocent little tribute to Bawbwa.
I don
Um. *Is* there such a thing as a truly standard version of a tune? I mean, approximately, sure, perhaps, but… Since I regularly teach people to play by ear at a slow session and it doesn’t take them years (or I’d soon have no hair left from all the pulling), I *don’t* believe that statement, but if anyone would like to believe it, they may do so, since believing in things tends to make it true…
The *standard* versions may well exist in the pop music world.
We all know of people for whom a version of a song sung by Sinatra (for example) is *The Standard Version* and they won’t even consider listening to that song being sung by anyone else. The same applies, perhaps to a lesser extent, in the classical world, e.g. Heifetz’s performance of the Korngold Concerto was for many years considered unsurpassed. This attitude of course closes the mind to a vast amount of excellent music and performances.
Fortunately, Irish trad - and other folk musics - don’t (or shouldn’t) have this problem because tunes generally are composed on the hoof, as it were, and each tune changes subtly, or perhaps not so subtly, each time it’s played. The dots and recordings are only instant snapshots of particular versions, and should be treated as guidelines, with no more reverence than is so due.
Trevor
Right, Will, we focused a bit on extremes, while the good mix tmo is the best … but the extremes occur.
Zina, picking up tunes in an easy slow players atmosphere is one possible early step - another one is recordings and slow downers with loop functions. all this helps making progress and saves hair, especially yours - mine are gone by other reasons. further down the way, what means years to many musos I know, we are able to pick up some tunes even when played in a good pace during the first round and join in the second and third.
right again, Will, the thread was hijacked. so back to Barbra. her method is not that bad to make a song (or a tune) part of yourself. Some irish singer said, a song can only be performed in some quality when this process of making it part of yourself is run thru - and it takes weeks or month.
Volker
“musicians who can’t read will always be dependent, needing a baby-sitter who sings or plays the tune for them, so that they can learn it by ear.”
Yes. That’s why they call it a “tradition.” Your argument doesn’t hold water: does the person reading notation NOT “need a babysitter”? Or, does the music just appear in notes w/out anyone ever having to write it down?
“I can think of many great tunes I’ve never heard anyone playing . . . which I got from notation. Also you may put a different interpretation on the tune . . .when you haven’t heard it played before.”
Yes, you might. But that “different interpretation” is highly unlikely to have much to do with the tradition.
I disagree Chris. I sometimes learn tunes from the dots, and after more than 20 years of listening to and playing this music, I’d say that my “interpretations” are very much influenced by the tradition, even if I don’t learn a tune directly from another trad musician.
Of course, just cuz it’s written on a piece of paper doesn’t make it non-traditional. Liz Carroll once hand wrote a trad jig for me on the back of a bar tab during intermission. The settings in Breathnach’s collection are mostly gathered from live trad players, by a transcriber who was steeped in the tradition. In fact, trad players themselves have been reading and writing down tunes for generations long before us (at least since the early 1800s)--that’s one way the tradition passes tunes down. It’s not *exclusively* aural.
Can’t we get off this kick of berating the tunes (the same one we all love) when they happen to land on the page?
A beginner’s going to have a harder time making the dots sound like the tune, of course. (Sorry, Will, you don’t qualify as a beginner anymore, because I’ve now heard you and know better. *grin*) And an experienced player is going to know how to make the dots sound like the tune, because they have the background to do so. I’m not sure we’re comparing apples and oranges here… 🙂
claudine wrote:“. . .I don’t see why anyone would boast about not being able to read. . .”
Perhaps folks are rather gratified that they don’t HAVE to read, not boasting that they can’t. Having a fellow player share a tune with you, and ‘give’ it to you in doing so, is appealing to my sense of tradition. It literally means I had to listen and focus to get it, and that’s something of an honor, both to the giver and the receiver.
I like Steve-o’s way of thinking there. I was floored and honored in a very humbling way when Liz Carroll handed me that bar tab with the tune scribbled on the back. Given that she was just between sets, we didn’t have a chance right then to swap tunes any other way. But I agree, if you can take the time to do it aurally, it’s a welcome and more direct form of communion.
Yes - we seem to get onto this topic all the time, maybe not such a bad thing. In relation to the ‘Babysitting’ comment - sorry *wrong answer*. Christine - have you met a musician who learns purely by ear? I have met many brilliant musicians who do. And I myself have never learnt to read music….sorry gotta go - my babysitter is calling🙂
Seriously tho - it doesnt hold me back and I know alot of tunes.
If truth be told I dont have time to learn to read music cause I’m too busy learning tunes by ear!
I do think that its fine to learn just by ear, but *not* just by music. If you are going to learn by dots you need to be able to learn by ear as well as we all know Trad isnt quite a strict as the dots on the page. Dots cant teach you the lilt!
Anyhow I learnt three new brilliant tunes last night - I dont think that is particularly bad going (especially for someone who cant read music) - two were really tough - one cape breton tune and one Diarmud Moyinahan (calico) tune.
I guess what I’m trying to say in a totally confusing way is I learn heaps of tunes just fine without reading music.
When I started playing Irish music, I initially tried to learn tunes from books but quickly discovered that the printed versions and the actual played versions had little in common. I found that learning to play by ear (which I now do exclusively) was a very liberating experience in that I no longer felt dependent on the sheet music. It was like a whole new world had opened up.
Aimee
Whoops - I totally meant Claudine - not christine -sorry!
“Here, here” to Will’s first post. I don’t really think any of the dot-readers here are seriously suggesting that *all* the information you need to play a tune well is in the dots - of course it isn’t. And Claudine did say that “playing by ear is an essential skill”.
I learn the framework of some of my tunes by reading dots (I don’t have spare $$ to buy many CDs and I can’t get to many sessions so if I didn’t read it would be a long long time before I got any tunes into my head at all) but I am well aware that what I learn this way is only “raw data” to be processed according to what I learn from listening to trad players.
If my playing lacks lilt (which it definitely does) it is not because I read but because I don’t yet know enough about trad music to process the information properly. I’d have that problem at this stage whether I could read or not, regardless of whether the notes got into my brain through my eyes or my ears.
(One can argue that learning solely from another player, you are hearing the way a tune is played as well as hearing the notes. This is certainly true, but when you’re stone cold to this field like I am, there’s a lot you miss by ear simply because you don’t yet know to listen for it. In my case, it still boils down to needing more experience before I can do a good job with the notes, no matter which way I’ve learned them.)
If I could organise my life as I’d like (oh, to be independently wealthy) I’d be happy working entirely without music but there are times in my less-than-ideal existence where it is a useful and time-saving skill.
Well, as long as we’re sharing our experiences… 🙂
When I started playing Irish music, I learned completely by ear. After several years of immersion with some very good players who grew up in the tradition, I moved back to Montana and soon found that my weekly fix of tunes on Thistle and Shamrock (radio) wasn’t enough. But there were no other Irish players around. So I started picking up tunes out of books (O’Neill’s and Breathnach’s, mostly). And I discovered how easy it was to find the dots for tunes I’d heard back in Portland, or on the radio, and use them for the bones of the tune, adding the flesh from what I remembered hearing, sometimes years before.
I still learn probably 90 percent of my tunes by ear, but I like being able to pick up tunes from abcs and the dots as well. I think it enriches my playing to be able to play with lift and pulse from the page (a skill not unlike playing by ear) because so many tunes are accessible this way.
That said, I’ve never been “dependent” on sheet music. That’s not what it’s for. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t useful.
It may help to think of it something like this.
Imagine the tune as a bottle.You really like the bottle (not just for its contents) but for its unique shape.Pick it up and feel it and memorise every curve and dimple. But then it smashes into hundreds of pieces.Tell yourself that you are going to re-make that bottle.You can go and blow a new bottle using your memory of the original as a template (playing music by ear) or you can painstakingly pick up each individual piece and try to glue it back together again (connect the dots).
Both methods of learning are sound and each has their place in traditional musics and you can be a devotee of either without slagging other people off for their choice.
But for me, I am lazy and learning from the stave is akin to glueing the bottle back together, so for me I know which one holds water 🙂
Thats a really good description there greenwiggle.
I wasnt trying to slag anybody off at all, and Tish I agree what you say - especially about when you cant hear alot of music so using both methods to your advantage. But - I think its funny about the babysitting comment because and this is true for pretty much most people on this site - most of us have not really heard each other on this site, so thats a pretty strong comment to make. For example as Tish can vouch- Ttwo girls that were at the session on Thursday learn by ear - not dots and I really dont see this as a disadvantage where they are concerned. They are fantastic muso’s. anyhooooo.
No, bKb, it wasn’t slowing them down at all. I just wish that the option of going dot-free that exists in trad could realistically be applied to other repertoires - about four hundredweight of paper and six music stands would disappear out of my house instantly!
bKb…I lke it, but maybe bVb would be better Tish 🙂
bb…SO defensive! I wasn’t aiming at you, rather just a claymore that you stood on! Have to agree those grrls can play…and then some. Are you festivalling this weekend?
Hope you remember to go home and put those tunes down on tape. I had a very interesting experience this last week listening to some practice tapes I did ten years ago. WOEFUL absolutely !!!as far as technique goes (glad something in my life is slowly improving 🙂, but some of the tunes I had completely forgotten I had ever attempted to play/learn.
Must dash ----------!
I apologize for using the word “babysitter” which may sound too harsh. Actually I was writing out of a spontaneous anger that was not completely caused by the original post. It just reminded me of that theory (which is very popular with many non-readers) that learning to read the dots automatically makes you unable to use your ears. This is just an old prejudice. After all, classical musicians must develop their hearing faculties and their memory to a high point (try to play a piano concerto by heart).
Living in a place where the irish music tradition is virtually absent, I have met only a small number of non-reading musicians. One of them is really good, but all the others are a bit disappointing and they need an eternity to learn a new tune by ear.
Of course, the situation may be different in an area where the tradition is alive, and your personal experience with non-readers is probably more positive than mine. So - PEACE - let’s just enjoy our music.
Hi Claudine…if you’re wondering why the strong reaction to your post, keep in mind that almost all of us players have had the experience of having a classical player figure that the tunes are easy to play off music, bringing sheet music to a session and still being unable to play it with the right feel. There’s many who read music that *can* listen to the music and transfer what they hear to what they play, but for every one of those, there’s usually a dozen who figure (erroneously) that it’s all there in the dots. So it isn’t quite “just” an old prejudice -- it’s been fed a bit! 🙂
Wow, what a debate this brings up. New to your site, I’m amazed at the info that flies back and forth. As someone who learned the piano for 12 years when younger, it always frustrated me how tied to the sheet music I was. I could remember technical fast pieces by memory no problem but otherwise a disaster. Why? Because when asked to play for anyone, I couldn’t play by memory!! So having now taken up the fiddle and doing pretty well (my sight reading is excellent, one positive), I’m making sure I’m less reliant on the paper notes. Success! I learned a tune within 10 mins by ear last week and can now play it and remember it…. Moral of story? Very useful to be able to read music but no good if you can’t play by memory when required
Hey this is great. I don’t even have to be in Australia to listen to bb and Greenwiggle arguing with each other!
Why, where are you? Not London I hope.
But Mark, you’d be sight reading the argument, right, not listening to it by ear…. See, there are advantages to being able to read these inky dots.
🙂
I must disagree with the statement in an earlier anti-sight reading post that “a different interpretation is highly unlikely to have much to do with the tradition”. This is one of the unique and attractive facets of traditional music in that the good musician makes his own mark and contribution to the tradition (it goes without saying that this assumes such a musician has experience and an understanding of traditional music). If we don’t accept this premise then all we create are human tape recorders where people aspire to become clones of Michael Coleman, Jim Morrison, Matt Molloy, etc, etc.
I think it’s good to have both - reading ability, and ability to pick up by ear. They each have their advantages. For me, reading helps greatly for music outside the IT repertoire, music of a form much more complex than the form of jigs, reels etc, which would be extremely difficult to *learn* by ear, although not difficult to play from memory once learned. Also, I like to read the dots for an little-known, obscure reel, and ‘bring it to life’.
On the other hand, some people prefer to learn by ear, and of course they have no other option but to commit it to memory and keep it there…unless they can hear it played again…and the advantage of ‘ear’-ing it is the very fact that it can improve the memory…I think Brendan Breathnach said something along the lines of ‘…relying on notation is not encouraged in ITM, as it leaves the memory under-developed…’ - well that’s fair comment too.
I encourage my fiddle students to learn to read notation, but I don’t insist on it. If they’ve got a reasonable amout of interest and aptitude, they’ll learn as much as they need to.
No need to pit one method against the other - the right amount of each will benefit you. No question.
Jim
Jim - good to have both - wish I did. But there you go, my cards are now well and truly dealt to me and I play as best I can.
Bannerman - you’re spot on with your point , but don’t you think it might be possible to *start off* your proper playing career as a Matt Molloy or James Morrison, or whoever, clone, then, if ye’ve any bollocks, or the female equivalent (brains?), you will inject more of yourself into your playing as you go. There’s nothing wrong with having influences - after all, “no man is an island” (or woman), so everyone feeds off previous players…..but maybe you get my drift.
Danny.
Claudine/Zina, on “just on old prejudice” that’s been fed a bit… Claudine’s frustration with a couple of non-readers does ring a bell with me and in my fields of musical “specialty” (i.e. things about which I know a bit more than I do about other things) I have to admit I tend to have the reaction Zina describes but in reverse.
Ignorant classically-trained readers who think they can play trad brilliantly from dots aren’t the only ones who behave this way. There are (a few) equally clueless non-readers who venture into territory where you *do* need to read music and stick to the script. Some of them wreak absolute havoc whilst remaining blissfully ignorant of the frantic ducking, dodging and second-guessing that the ensemble/accompanist has to do to work round them.
I’ve been saddled with ‘em enough times that in self-defence I’ve now got a formal policy on playing with “extra” musicians who are not core members of my group or not personally known to me. Once too often I’ve felt like I was accompanying a grasshopper, or spent in excess of twenty hours’ work propping up a non-reader who was completely out of their depth and should never have taken on the gig.
It’s the converse of what happens in trad but it happens, and it’s usually in situations where it’s so much harder to say “shut the *** up” than it is down the pub.
So, neither camp has a monopoly on arrogant-and-out-of-my-depth-but-won’t-be-told.
End of rant 8>)
I agree with both zina and Tish. Tish I can totally see where you are coming from - as can most people on this site. I only talk of trad because its all I know. And me being totally harsh and not nice like zina tend to fly off the handle about this particular subject alot.
I dont think the babysitting comment was that harsh - but it does lead me to believe that claudine does not have a very strong scene where she is. Mores the pity for you. Ive the opposite problem than Tish - just constantly struggling to tell classical muso’s turned irish that it requires more than just reading the dots. Much easier said than done.
Greenwiggle - I seriously wasnt being defensive before!
PS - does not take me ages to learn tunes by ear - it used to but its just practise isnt it.
Me, nice! Where have YOU been, Brids? LOL
It’s just different manifestations of exactly the same problem, eh bb? (Or is that bVb, haha, nice one Greenwiggle!)
She’s a lot nicer than she says she is, Zina!
LOL -- I sort of assumed, actually…🙂
Actually - the bVb thing is pretty funny…
From reading some of the responses above, there’s definitely some music snobs out there, and I mean from both trad and classical. As someone who’s really wanting to learn to play trad well but comes from a classically trained past, I’d be terrified of joining in on some sessions due to some peoples remarks. “Ignorant classically trained readers” (Tish!). Grow up!! Neither form of music is better than the other but at lease people want to learn. I can understand the frustrations of people not up to scratch joining in on a session but not all “classically trained readers” are ignorant. Isn’t it about time people embraced each others music instead of slagging it off?? I know this sounds strong and it only refers to a minor number of ye, but that sentence just really got to me.
DG, I’m sorry if you’re getting the impression that us trad players are an intolerant bunch! You’d be most welcome at one of our sessions. Our experience with classically trained players has always been very positive. Understandably anyone new to the tradition may be a bit challenged on getting the feel of the tunes and getting used to committing them to memory. However, with a little encouragement and lots of session playing, the majority eventually get over this hurdle. To my mind one of the objectives of a good session is to encourage new members and assist them in developing their traditional skills.
I don’t know why this subject of “readers” versus “non-readers” always becomes so emotive as surely the two abilities are complementary. We all accept that listening is of prime importance as there’s no way the nuances in traditional music can be committed to paper but, however, once the player understands traditional music, it has to be an advantage to be able to access all the music tucked away in collections, etc that has never seen the light of day. As for anyone not possessing reading skills, it’s far from “rocket science” - “Every Good Boy Deserving Football” on the lines and “FACE” in the spaces.
Calm down DG -
Tish doesn’t say “all classically trained readers are ignorant”. The meaning appears to me to be: “Classically trained readers who happen to be ignorant . . . .”
Keep on visiting the site and you’ll see this topic chewed over about once every six weeks or so.
Dave
Unless it got really bad, in which case it’s generally given a rest for a bit longer. 🙂
Eoin O’Riabhaigh once told me that he views reading dots as just another tool in the toolkit of the musician, and being as how Eoin lives off his toolkit when he’s not teaching at Scoiltrad, you can see that he takes tools as something a good workman needs.
DG, to be brutally honest, being terrified to get up and play in some sessions is a good thing. Be happy you found that out in a non-personal way here at The Session. God knows there are some sessions that I, a classically trained player who has been playing trad for five years or so now, would NOT insert myself into without a very specific invitation and that I’d stay extremely quiet in.
Much better to look bashful and modest then to willfully waltz into a session without finding out if you play at that level first. Just as Tish has problems with untrained players who don’t even know when they’re outclassed in a situation, session players have problems with untrained players who don’t even know when they’re outclassed in a situation, is what we were saying.
It doesn’t appear that you’re the sort to do that, by your post, of course.
If the-general-you wouldn’t insert yourself (if you’re an untrained person) uninvited into a conversation about quantum physics with a bunch of quantum cowboys tinkering with the makings of the universe, then why is it okay to do that if you’re a musician who can’t add to the music? I’m sure the quantum physicists would feel the same way as me and Tish -- someone approaching what someone else does with a sense of knowing that they don’t know the subject well yet is welcome, but someone just forcing themselves and the ignorance they don’t know enough to know they have is another species of beast altogether…
Welcome to our happy little crew. *grin*
Nice post, Bannerman. And thanks, Dave, that’s exactly what I did mean. And what I did not say. If you see what I mean.
DG, I’m a bit puzzled. If you re-read what’s been said, you’ll see it isn’t *me* who
Posting at the same time, Zina - it’s usually your job, isn’t it? 8>)
LOL -- apparently great minds think alike, Tish…hehehe
It’s possibly worth noting (or maybe not) that one person’s “standards” are another person’s “snobbery” and vice versa. Is there anything so wrong about that?
DG, how about introducing yourself before slagging people off? (there’s nothing about you in your details) - Even I did that, and I’m really rude…
S/he sort of did up earlier in the thread, Mark. 🙂 But yeah, DG, put some info in your bio.
Mmmm. Interesting reaction. Points taken people. Do agree though, there are some sessions you know not to interrupt and certain tunes not to request (cause they’re requested so often). Will be more diplomatic in future and thanks for the welcome!! Have picked up some good tips already from these discussions.
PS. Bio is updated, didn’t know about it….
Eh up DG
A magnanimous reply. Keep coming - sometimes people seem to say dreadful things, then when you read again they didn’t mean it, (sometimes they do: there are a few regular contributors who I personally consider to have been bang out of order on a few occasions - but hey, maybe they just had a bad day/week/upbringing. Maybe they think the same about me (but of course they’re wrong). Sometimes, some sort of [hypertext *grin*] is sometimes worth putting in when using irony, as those damn foreigners just have no sense of humour (sic). see below.
I have currently been receiving death threats after one thing I said - but I looked at the profile of the person sending the threat, and though I wouldn’t ever consider naming that person publicly, I hope that when she carries it out, it will involve her “schwarzeneggerian calf muscles”.
Anyway, nurse will be coming round soon, as the dosage needs to be kept high.
Dave
Oh, well…diplomatic, most of us don’t bother anymore. *grin* LOL -- all joking aside, once everyone gets to know you (this is, after all, a fairly small community worldwide, this bunch of players), you’ll find most are pretty forgiving. One thing that I really like about TheSession (all hail Jeremy, the Benevolent Dictator) is that it’s as close as you can come to a meatspace session, including that most people will pretty much assume that you mean the best by what you say unless you get so out there that they can’t. Unusual out in hyperspace, really.
Not sure exactly what you mean by “interesting”, would you care to expand on that? *grin*
LOL -- Dave, I told you to remind me to kill you, so if you get death threats, it’s your own fault; I’m too absent minded to remember I need to make them, otherwise…*snort*
Zina
Considering we were posting simultaneously, that almost makes sense.
Jeremy really is a top bloke though - the other day I had computer problems and really really wanted to reply to a thread, but it would only let me post a new one. So I did, and Lo! the very wonder Jeremy picked it up, and put it seamlessly where it belonged in the thread I couldn’t contact. What service!
Let’s hope your politics aren’t as Schwartzneggerian as the calf muscles. One of him is enough.
Hi DG,
I think there is a fair bit of inverted snobbery out there regarding players backgrounds (how Irish are you? Have you been classically trained? Did you learn that tune from the dots?)
There are also a few classically trained musicians - almost all violinists, who strive their hardest to give the rest a bad name. They can usually be spotted by their unusually upright posture, lack of drinking (whilst playing) ability, interminable vibrato and penchant for excessive extemporization. But they are in a minority, and if someone is good enough, anything will be forgiven.
But I can’t for the life of me see what can be wrong with being ABLE to read music. It seems like such a trifling thing to learn, which can be so useful at times. No one can learn a tune properly from dots without either hearing someone else bring it to life, or having enough immersion in the tradition to be able to do so themselves. It’s not like the tradition predates the writing of music. People who complain about the continuation of the tradition using written music seem to forget that if it wasn’t for O‘Neils (to pick just one example) written collection the tunebase that the current Irish ’tradition’ is built upon would have been greatly impoverished.
That must be why I have two, Danny.
I don’t see what’s wrong with reading music either, ottery dear…was that being suggested somewhere? I mean, that’s sort of a good quarter of this site, that sheet music stuff…
Zina, I think what he’s getting at (at least how I sometimes perceive it) is that some non-readers seem to imply that they’re superior to us readers because they’ve never had to “cheat” to learn a tune. Maybe I’m just paranoid, but I’ve had times when a non-reader hinted that my ability to sight read was a crutch--even though I’d just demonstrated that I could play by ear as well or better than themselves. That’s just bizarre, and I’ve usually chalked it up to insecurity on their part (isn’t that generous of me 🙂.
I just re-read the start of this thread, and it hit me…I wonder if Streisand also learns all of the *lyrics* just by listening? Or does she sometimes read the libretto? Inquiring minds want to know. If she’s really completely illiterate, I suppose it’s a good thing she doesn’t routinely do Springsteen covers. Does anyone ever get all the words for one of his marble-mouth songs right without relying on a transcription of the lyrics?
🙂
LOL -- I just had this lovely mental image of Barbara Streisand doing Bruce Springsteen…. LOL
Zina, I’m sure I’ve read posts on here where people have said that they don’t read music, and had no intention of doing so, as if that were some great virtue, and being exposed to the dreaded dots would somehow pollute their pristine traditional minds. And there is definitely a feeling amongst some people that somehow using dots as a learning aid puts you in an iferior position musically. But really I was talking about the world outside the website, and as Will succinctly puts it, the notion of dots as ‘cheats’.
One thing I’ve learnt over the years (oh dear, here he goes!) is that things are not always what they seem on first encounter. There’s many a person I’ve come across who will sit in a session and talk about having lifted a tune off such and such a record, or being ‘given’ a tune by such by such and such a musician, and you’d think them fine musicians for being able to get a tune so well after just one evening. It’s only when you get to know them better that they say that so and so actually scribbled down the dots, or that they got the music to help suss out that awkward bit in the tune on the record. I’ve got so many bits of paper with dots scrawled down by better musicians than myself. It seems crazy not to avail yourself of the chance to read this stuff!
Small-scale observation:
Tools is tools. Having more than one wrench is a good thing.
There’s an awful lot about this music which cannot be conveyed in dots. Dots shouldn’t be taken as a substitute for getting that irreplaceable by-ear information.
Usually when the dots have been used in big ways in the tradition (Breathnach, O Neill, Joyce, Cole, etc), it has *not* been done for pedagogical but for archival purposes. In my opinion, dots work well in this tradition for archival purposes, less well for pedagogy.
Final observation: sometimes, just sometimes--especially on the bleedin’ Internet--when someone insists that s/he can “learn a tune just as well from the dots as someone else can from the sound”, that person is not actually dealing from a position of equivalent skills in both areas. Sometimes, just sometimes, those who insist they can learn as well from the dots are less sure of their ability to learn from the sound. Sometimes, just sometimes, those who brag of their ability to learn by ear are less sure of their ability to read.
NB: I would not include any contributor to the above thread to the types I cite in the previous paragraph. In my experience as a contractor and on job sites, carpenters seldom say “there’s never any use for a framing hammer” or “there’s never any use for a finishing hammer.”
But the guys I worked with *would* sometimes say to someone using a finishing hammer, “Hey, you dumb bast*rd, if you cut that ten-penny nail with a framing hammer you’d get the job done quicker.”
Over and out.
Really, ottery? Huh. I don’t know why anyone would think it’s extra special not to read music. I mean, from my end of things, it’s more cool to be able to learn by ear on the fly, but that’s only because I’ve read music since I was about 4 years old, so it’s not any stretch for me at all. Everything’s easy once you know how to do it, or so they tell me. Am I extra special because I don’t speak Russian? *grin*
What fun, hijack! Hijack!
zls
Just read your bio, DG. You’ll get to the stage where you can play at a session, for sure. I took up fiddle at 37 (I think a few others here did at that magic age too, from vague memory of past threads) and though I can’t play reels up to speed after a year and a bit… there’s, hmm, let’s see… all of about five jigs that are pretty close to it 8>)
Nice analogy, CoyoteB. I’ve given a few workshops on arranging music for the instruments you’ve got rather than the ones you wish you had, and that’s been the whole point I’ve tried to get across - be task-oriented, not tool-fixated.