Slow ’em down?

How do you slow down someone who plays too fast? And how do you offer constructive criticism? In my case, it’s a young person who consistently plays at lightning speed, has no real concept of the style, does not play any ornaments whatsoever (if he did, it would slow him down). He is a big fish in a little pond, so to speak, and has also performed onstage. He always gets plenty of applause from the punters, since the general public erroneously equates speed with virtuousity, so he’s getting a lot of positive feedback for what he’s doing. He clearly has a lot of talent and enthusiasm, his head is in the right place, and his family is very supportive of him. But wouldn’t it be nice if all that talent and energy could be chanelled into becoming a really good Irish musician? In this case, it’s not my place to say anything (although I’m sorely tempted) since it’s not “my” session. I’m wondering if other people have encountered this sort of thing and what, if anything, they have done about it.

Aimee

*sigh* Example. That’s all you can do. Also, if it annoys me enough, I’ll try “confiding” in that person, as one who knows (even though I know damned well they don’t) about that very thing that annoys me about them, in regards to *me*. Sometimes it even works.

When he steps away from the session, pack up his instrument & leave it by the door. I’m just joking… Honest

A few jokes perhaps - suggesting that he is a rival for Shergar, Red Rum and Arkle?

Mock commentary - and coming up on the inside with a final flourish of speed is PADDY the FIDDLE, as he flashes by the finishing post!!!

If you start a set keep to your own time and ignore when he speeds up - might get the message eventually.

Tell them you aren’t up to their technical wizardry and ask them to slow down so you can learn from them? Pandering sometimes works!

Tell them quietly that this is not on!

We have had one or two such in our session and we are finally taming the madness in them - mind you it has taken years in one case and a fond farewell in the other!

Talk about fiddle players who inspire you and mention their CDs so he can hear for himself. Talk about what it is you like about each player. If it all else fails (and this works especially well when you start a tune and somone hijacks it and speeds it up) Hold your ground and keep playing at a steady pace even if it sounds awful - I do it all the time and it really does work well.

It may also help to make a recording of the young person when “at speed” in a session so that s/he (more likely a “he”) can then compare his playing with that of an established player. If the youngster’s musicality is starting to develop then the message will probably get through. If that musicality doesn’t develop as the youngster gets older then it’s going to be yet another sad example of someone with brilliant technique but little depth flashing across the scene like a meteor only to disappear into relative obscurity a few years later. It has happened (and still does) in the world of classical music, too, to mention but one other genre.
Trevor

Ah, Trevor--why do you say “more likely a he”? Interesting statement. Makes me think. Yes it’s kind of a competitive, show-off thing to play fast and males are guilty of this frequently, but you know what, I am realizing lately that I am guilty of the same thing! That mixed with the adrenalin rush will do it. I never realized just how competitive I was until recently. Can be a good thing. Can be a not-so-good thing, too…

LOL @ bb! Bridie has this thing where if someone tries to speed her up, she purses her lips slightly and tilts her head so that her ear points slightly more down towards her fiddle, as if to say “I’m going to damn well play this the speed I want to play it!”

And so she should, Mark. :-p So she should.

Delicate question. But even if you think now I am a rude person, I do tell people in sessions. And it worked. Of course, I say it in a friendly way but I am not a fan of telling people in other hidden ways. So if people are speeding up (on purpose), I first do try to keep them in a constant speed but musicians here tend not to listen to others which is bad enough. Anyway, if it does not work I stop playing. I don’t like to fight while playing. This music is my passion and I want to enjoy it and not fight while playing. I do the same if people play faster than they can and should. I stop playing, look at the player, drink my beer. And I tell them after their set of tunes that it is not enjoyable that way. Not for the other musicians and that a session is meant for everyone. Speeding up is like pain to me and so if things don’t improve and people stick to their way of playing I don’t go to the session any more. I hate to go home from a session telling myself what an awful night it was. That does not mean I don’t want beginners in sessions - it is just those who have no clue but behave like the big stars. Those who are new to a session and destroy it. I teach a lot at workshops here in Germany and playing in a steady not too fast speed is one of the main things I try to teach the students. I tell them to listen, listen, listen to good Irish music so that they get the swing. And I am happy to say that most of my students understood and enjoyed playing slower but with swing.
To conclude my statement, I would tell people - that might be the only way of saving the session. If the session is too big to do so, then if I don’t enjoy it, I leave it. Most new comers do learn or their interest stops after a while any way.

Sabine

I find there are (at least)two types of speedsters :

One that is just about to learn their instrument (in most cases the fiddle). This player is not necessarily playing very fast, but is playing over ability and hence to fast. My view is : let them carry on. Either they get there in the end, or they stop playing. This player generally doesn’t have a large repertoire, so most of the regular musicians will live through a few sets of “over-the-head” playing. I have first-hand experience:Had it not been for a few patient men and women, I probably wouldn’t be playing now.

The 2nd type is the established musician (from another genre)who has learned a few reels, and joins the session. This is often more difficult, I find, to cope with, as this player plays fast, because (s)he can, and have not the faintest notion of the swing in ITM,etc The ones I have met are rather like machines (often classically trained….), they play all ornaments and punctuations and bits and pieces technically right…..at about 120 mph, and the result is terrible.

What to do:
Living in Oslo, a town where the ITM scene is fairly static, any new addition to the scene, by the way of a new serious player is valueable . So I try to get to know people socially, by inviting people to events other than the regular sessions, pointing them to the “right” recordings (or lending them to those that are students) and getting them in my kitchen every now and then for the exchange of tunes. A prerequisite for all this is that the player in question is a likable person, but they genearally are.
In this way people will discover the session-dynamics in our session, simply by way of asking or being told by someone they frequently socialize, drink and play music with.

This (obviously) doesn’t work everywhere, with everyone, but luckily I’ve had a few good experiences over the last couple of years, and managed to get a few new faces in our session on a regular basis.

It sounds to me that this kid’s problem is not playing to fast, but no decoration. The playing too fast is just a result of not playing rolls etc.

This is easy to fix in someone who shows enthusiasm. They are obviously not using their ears, but this can be turned arround. All that’s needed is for some one to play them a tune they already play, but with the decoration in. And then piont out to them that they havn’t yet learned the whole tune, that the music is not complete without it. This should be enough of a revelation for them to completely transform themselves.

I was at Sidmouth a few years ago and there was an Irish Tourism stall that had musicians playing spots on it. One afternoon there was a young lad playing box, I think has was quite famous, but he was playing far too fast. At the end of has set I went up to him and said “ why don’t you go the Ireland and learn to play tunes at the proper speed, because the only people who play fast are English”. I think he was quite taken aback and spluttered, “Luke Daniels plays fast ”. I said “yes, and he’s English” and walked away.

Good point Michael.

Michael’s got it right. No decoration. Just zooming through the bare bones of a tune. However in answer to Trev & Andee I don’t think it’s necessarily a male thing, ie going over the speed limit is not an *exclusively* male preserve. I know you didn’t say it was *exclusively*--- I think speeding is independent of gender. Loudness might be a male thing though.

Incidentally Ric, I happen to like Luke Daniels, and I remember him as a decent guy when he used to play at the Powerhouse in Islington. I would be curious who the young guy was that you advised to go to Ireland. I wouldn’t be very proud of your little story there, particularly walking away. I hope he paid no heed whatsoever to your comments.

I dunno that it’s *just* the no decoration, though that probably has something to do with it. I’ve heard some perfectly lovely players who play with little to no decoration, and one of my favorite written descriptions of a player is someone’s (Professor Carson?) loving description of a player who played “in a fine, unornamented style” that made him the perfect person to learn a tune from.

Fact is, to play the music a bit more slowly is actually more the outward sign of a certain attitude about this stuff than it is anything else. We’ve all played faster than we can actually play well at some point or other, simply because sometimes it’s fun to roar along, especially at a session playing with others (*especially* if they’re better players than you), but being willing to slow down to find the heart and beauty of a tune gets to the core of why we all play this stuff. Somebody who plays along rat-a-tat-tat all the time isn’t nearly as enjoyable to play with as someone who likes to change things up a bit.

And on top of that, some tunes just seem to want to find their own speed, and if you play fast for the sake of the speed, you can miss that.

F’rinstance, does anyone else think that Miss McLeod’s sounds a whole lot better slower than it does fast? Everyone round here except my lot plays it at lightning speed, and it always reminds me of a barnyard in a cartoon that way, whereas slower I think it’s lyrical and beautiful. Mulvihill, McLeod and McComiskey play a lovely steady and slower version of it on a stepdancing practice CD and you never heard it sound so relaxed and lovely in your life.

At any rate, my favorite players are the ones who can make you suddenly realize that the relaxed and lovely playing you’re hearing is clipping along much faster than you thought on first hearing…

I am in the process of dealing with such a person. He is a classically trained fiddler and can sight read at the same speed but can ruin a set (if I let him) as no-one else (except the best) can keep up. People have sworn at him and walked out before now. He can play fast - so he does.

You have to take them under your wing, and make sure you sit either next to them or near them in session, make sure you start the sets at your speed, and keep reminding them - not too fast - no faster than this. You also need to be able to talk and play as they will also need reminding mid-set.

I know I am a session leader and can keep control, but it is sometimes difficult to do so. If they are essentially good players that just play too fast, they are worth befriending and encouraging. If they are crap players who play too fast, a little sarcasm (horse noises, clip clop, neighing etc) may be needed to get them back on track.

yep - I’d agree with what you say Zina. However there is another factor (at least in my playing). I’ve spent time at home, nice and relaxed, got a tune set at just the right speed but when it comes to starting it at a session I get a little excited, and off it goes at 100mph…

One of our local sessions is having that problem right now, Geoff -- the newer hotshot players have sort of taken over, speeding things up all past bearing, and as a result many of the better older musicians are bailing…especially since there’s often a whole hour of new tunes like Liz Carroll’s, (not that I have any objection to her tunes, but an entire half hour of them?), Lunasa arrangements and every now and again even some Riverdance. (Add into that that there’s often far too many fiddles playing and it ends up sounding like a feckin’ symphony orchestra.) The session leaders have remonstrated but are getting pretty fed up with it all…

After they’ve finished, tell them “That was very nice, but I think you should switch to decaf.” ?

All this advocating the use of sarcasm-- wouldn’t it be better just to chat to the culprit, in a friendly way, and just explain that every note has its own value, otherwise why would the composer have written it, kinda thing. And yes you’re right Zina, slowness doesn’t equate with ornamenting - but if you play slower it allows you the potential to do so if you wish.

On the other hand, there’s nothing worse than the whole session dragging on at a funereal pace …>yawwnn

A problem we all have to grapple with …

At a session some time ago, one which I had joined as a newcomer, one of the musicians obviously considered himself a real hotshot. Every tune was played at a blinding speed and with a very heavy attack. The guy had a great fund of tunes and had loads of self-confidence but I felt the session would have benefitted from him easing up on the accelerator a little.

Where I knew the tunes as they emerged, I’d try to play along but found that the speed was simply alien to me and my fingers couldn’t get to the right places in time …

So, the night wore on with myself feeling increasingly despondent and wondering why I’d left the warmth and comfort fo my house to drag my carcass along to a session halfway across town where I wasn’t enjoying myself.

Anyway … eventually one of the others at the session eventually asked if I’d like to kick off a set. A few of my standards (cos we all have a few chestnut sets that we carry around with us in case we are asked to lead off a set in strange surroundings - old favourites that practically play themselves) had been used up earlier in the evening so I thought to myself I’d lead off with “The Maid Behind The Bar” and then change to “The Wind That Shakes The Barley”, safe in the knowledge that if everyone was still with me, I could change again into “The Concertina Reel”. OK, hardly a mind-blowing set, but terra firma …

So I kicks off “The Maid Behind The Bar” at a fairly conservative, steady pace and I sees yer man cock an ear. Now the guy has a much louder instrument than myself - I’m playing an octave mando at this point which is fine in the company of one or two instruments playing reasonably quietly behind me - but gets drowned out quickly by some of the louder instruments in a session …

By the second bar he’s worked out what tune I’m starting and decides to “lend a hand”. And not only does he up the speed by a factor of 2, he straightens out the rhythm as well!!! By which stage I’m drowned out and struggling to keep up with the flow. By the time it came to the change - a change I’ve played a hundred times - my fingers were all over the place. But of course by this time he’d stopped and was looking at me expectantly waiting for the next tune whilst I was doing the musical equivalent of skidding out of control into a brick wall.

At which point he shook his head sadly and kicked off a head-banging set.

(Anyway - the story has a happy ending. The guy in question has to leave at 11.00 on the dot and as soon as he goes there is a tangible change in atmosphere. Someone kicked off a nice, mellow set of jigs. Someone else gave us a beautiful hornpipe set on the concertina. I kicked off another jig set and the players locked in to my speed and we kept it up for a good ten or twelve tunes. I was offered a lift home and so I could stay till the death at about 2.30 and it was a grand night’s crack.

I asked one of the regulars if they had any problems with yer man’s playing. “Aye”, he replied, “everybody thinks he’s a nusiance.” “Has anybody ever said anything?” An astonished look came over his face … “No way, man. He’s here every week, rain or shine. We couldn’t do without him …” Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm……)

Zina’a “fine, unornamented style” probably refers to a more Martin Hayes type of playing that still has a certain amount of decoration. We call it decoration, but the important thing to remember is that it’s not there for decorative purposes, it’s “part” of the tune.

I dunno that it does, Michael, as I’m not the person who wrote the description it, so I’d hesitate to go saying I know exactly what he means. Breandon, WAS that your professorial brother who wrote that (for some reason I think it is), and if so, do *you* know what he meant by it? At any rate, there’s players who play with more decoration and some with less, and both ways can be lovely if they know what they’re about.

I’m quite sure that one of the greats could take a tune and play it totally without any ornaments whatsoever and still make it still be an Irish tune if they really needed to. They’d probably look at you like you’d sprouted an extra head for asking them to, but they could probably do it.

Oh, and of course we’re all talking the hairs that split here, I’m sure -- from playing for the dancing, I can tell you there’s a heckuva lot more time for ornaments at 113 than there is at 120…

It

The player in question does not speed up during a set; he just starts fast. Whenever this happens, I simply put my fiddle down since I can’t play that fast and play the way I want to. And after each lightning set, there are the usual comments and jokes about how fast it was, but I think this just serves as reinforcement. He’s obviously impressing other people. I have no problem starting tunes, so I will then start a set at a reasonable speed and try to keep it there.

Again, this is not my session -- it’s in another town, and I don’t go very often. And perhaps I should mention that there is no real leader or host of this session which is part of the problem. There are some good players who seem to show up and who are fun to play with. It would be nice if one of them took charge of the session, so to speak, since they would be in a better position to do or say something about the speed situation. You could say it’s all none of my business, but I do care about the music and it pains me to see someone with obvious talent doing everything wrong.

Lots of good feedback. Thanks.

Aimee

We have to admit that playing fast is fun. Try admiting this to said youth, Then say whatr more fun it would be if ypou could play all the notes.

And, Zine, I agree. We seem to split hairs alot you and I. Ha ha

Buy ’em a pint, and then: “Playing at your speed is fun for some of us, but it’s a little rough on some of the rest. I’ve found that when I slow down a little, as a favour out of respect for them, I also find that slowing down gives me more space to do other interesting things like ornaments, changes in dynamics, and more swing.” Often times they’ll (uh, I’ll) reply “You’re right; I know I really should be slowing down more.” At that point, offer to count in and to check in with one another at various points through the set.

I’ve noticed that playing fast requires concentration, which for many people reduces their ability to make eye contact. If you play at a speed that allows you to make eye contact, you can get a lot of information from the other players. If they’re not making eye contact either, you’re probably playing too fast for them (or they’re playing too fast for themselves).

---Michael B.

I’m not sure this is really such a great pronblem, unless the person in question is hogging the session. The fact that you don’t think his style is good is no reason to stop him playing - he may dislike your style - does that give him the right to stop you playing? If he his taking over sets that you start, sure then he needs talking to, but if it is just that you think he is overeaching himself and playing poorly because of it, he probably is in a boat with over 50% of people who play at sessions. The fact that he gets positive feedback from the punters means that his style cannot be that brittle and uncomfortable to listen to. A lot of people could complain that modern Irish music is vastly over-ornamented anyway.
If you feel he is being antisocial and showing off just say so to him as part of the banter between tunes, or just make sure you’re ready to start a set when he’s finished and don’t let him speed it up. As Michael says - buy the lad a pint - make sure you’re all on the same side, then you can speak honestly and openly to him. If you really want to slow him down, buy him LOTS of pints..

Aidan

I was struck by your story of you starting at your speed and the other guy coming in with a louder instrument at a far faster speed. I have experienced this, and have seen it happen to others.
Heres an idea. I’ve done this - it works.
Not only do you stop playing, but you stop the other guy too. You actually call a halt (you might need to shout or stand up at this point - if necessary take (gentle) hold of his bowing arm or his left hand). Then point out that he had got the speed wrong. (wrong in the sense that it was not the speed being played on that occasion by the person who had started the tune). Unless you think it likely that he will resort to violence then the worst that will happen is that he will stamp out in a huff - not a great loss for one night, and given what you tell us, he will be back next week. The better possibility and probably the greater likelihood, given your description of the situation and the reaction of other people, is that he will moderate his behaviour and everybody will benefit.

If you are slightly built, and/or of a shy disposition this might seem a daunting course of action, but sure we’d play some grand tunes at your wake.

Good luck with it

Dave

I’ve kept on playing before when someone’s decided that my tempo was too slow. It’s usually very funny. Somewhere around a turn, they’ll usually have to stop and wait for you to catch up. Usually I’ll only do it once a session to make the point. Then to prove that it isn’t that I can’t play it faster, later I’ll start a very fast set.

Showaddyperson…that’s how I was beginning to think as I read down the page!!!

Zina…cool!

I play the \()) and speed is an issue. In earlier days I was politely (sometimes not so) informed that I speeded up. That was because I was so listening to my drum that I wasn’t listening to everyone else. So now I listen before I play. I won’t even join in at the beginning of a set until I can “hear” the sort of pattern that’ll fit.

And back to the topic - record a session with the speed merchant present and find a way of getting him to listen to it. He might hear how he’s not fitting in. But maybe he’ll still only hear himself!

I’ve been going to a session for about a couple months now, always playing mandolin, though I’m much faster on fiddle. This is because I’m new to the music, and don’t want to screw up the session for the (very welcoming) bunch who run it.

Two weeks ago I brought my fiddle and wiped out on a few tunes, going faster than I could. Also, I was definitely too loud… but it was great fun for the two or three sets I trod on portions of. Hehe, sorry, but I’d been whispering all along and one shout was exhilarating.

So thanks to all of you who have a bit of tolerance for those of us who can’t quite express ourselves like we’d like to musically, but are learning. I’ll be playing mando mostly, until I’m up closer to the level of the others in the session, or playing fiddle more quietly. And eventually I hope to really contribute to the craic and the music.

I’d like to say one other thing. Don’t assume the person who’s causing problems is just arrogant. He might be ignorant (lacking knowledge) and too caught up in trying to play to listen and watch and learn. He might also quite amenable to a friendly bit of advice. Hell, if it was me, I’d buy *you* a pint. Maybe a few, and regularly, particularly if the advice came often enough to really teach me something.

Also jerball that’s a great story about the fellow who got up and danced while you played his banjo. That really *is* what it’s about. 🙂

The person in question is not arrogant at all. He’s not a beginner; his rhythm and execution are quite good. And he’s not hogging the session, although his speed definitely leaves some people in the dust. Perhaps I didn’t explain properly. It is not a question of style and whether I happen to like or dislike it. This is a question of NO style -- of someone who hammers out the tunes with no apparent concept of how the music is actually played. I think he simply has never really listened to it, nor has anyone given him any guidance. He could probably be a great traditional Irish musician if he got some advice and instruction. What I’m asking is how do you do it tactfully, and is it even my place to say anything? And as much as I’d like to, I can’t buy him a pint -- he’s a minor.🙂

Aimee

Heh, Aimee, so what if he’s not sober the next morning when he rides the tram down into the shaft?

Sorry, ahem. ;o)

With a little luck, perhaps he’ll read this thread and recognize the error of his ways. Or maybe he’ll simply end up joining Leahy and fit right in. Ooops….did I say that out loud?!

Not a few of the speed merchants I’ve run into know perfectly well what they’re doing--they *prefer* the music that way, even if it sounds soul-less to the rest of us. I’m not sure we can change them until they want to change themselves. I once confronted one of these adrenalin junkies after a blistering reel. I turned to him and said, “That was too fast. This is music, not a NASCAR race.” He responded, without a word, by starting another reel, at an even faster tempo. The next chance I got, I played a moody, slow slip jig, at least seven times, with lots of variations. He appeared as uninterested in my slip jig as I was in his blitzkrieg reels. Sometimes you just have to let people be fast--it consoles them for not being anything else. At least the young ’uns usually outgrow it….

Aimee, you say this person has NO style, but also that people applaud and like ‘his style’ , but that they are just the ignorant punters who don’t know how the music should be played and who ‘erroneously equate speed with virtuosity’. As long as he’s getting positive feedback from ‘the ignorant masses’ he’s hardly likely to take note of a fellow musician who he might well consider to be disgruntled because they just can’t keep up. Maybe you should consider having a word with all the punters, and tell them off for liking the wrong thing!

Hmm, I like that. Populism.

Ooops …

Re my post above …

Several people may be wondering … is he talking about me? (One person certainly did … and I can’t think of anyone who would deserve such criticism less!)

The player in question is a banjoist … the session in question is not one listed in the sessions listing here. (In fact I gather it has now folded.) So unless you’re a banjo-player who used to frequent a certain dodgy boozer in the Vauxhall/Oval neck of the woods called the B**** P*****, then my comments weren’t brought about by yourself.

If you DO happen to be said bloke … then sorry, mate, but your personal preferences and mine didn’t gel … but good luck to you anyway!

Don’t you just love all the verbal cuddles we give each other on this site. Aidan’s post has made me feel all warm and fuzzy.

Time for a shave and turn down the heating now.

A similar situation to the guy coming in too fast, is someone who plays different sets to you - and goes into his own second tune without knowing or caring what you were going to do. What do you do then? Play louder? (hard it it is say mandolin vs banjo)
Give up? (this can spoil it for you).
Shout “STOP! THATS NOT WHAT WE’RE PLAYING” ?(this might offend the other guy - but hey! who was out of order)

Dave

Train all the regular members to give them a unison ‘stare of death’ - they’ll hesitate, and when they do that, pointedly go into the one you meant to go into in the first place.

Ottery, I don’t think anyone who’s ever played with Aimee would ever assume she can’t keep up.

Thanks Zina. Yes, I could keep up if I wanted to, but what’s the point of that? I prefer to play Irish MUSIC, not just a bunch of fast notes. There’s a big difference.

Aimee

Ah, but Zina, you’ve never heard this other blazing player. We’re talking jaw-dropping, laugh-out-loud speed here, warp 9, mach 15, Matrix Reloaded, you-oughta-be-on-Ripley’s-Believe-It-Or-Not, batten the hatches and punch the hyperspace button sheer velocity. This makes the Bothy Band or Leahy sound like they’re on Amazing Slow Downer. Take the fastest you’ve ever heard anyone play, and double that beat on your metronome.

The only way to keep up is to strip out all “extraneous” ornamentation, kill your sense of lift, and vibrate in time to his downbeats. And after a few bars of that, you realize that there is *absolutely no joy* in playing that fast, even if it almost feels like you can. It ceases to be music. It’s more like main frame data processing. Ugh. And the player in question may well be impressed with himself that no one else can keep up--that he’s a Pentium 4 chip in a slide rule world….

So you’re saying he likes to play fast? *snort* Perhaps you guys should sell tickets! LOL

I’ve also been struggling for about a year now with how to slow my session down to reasonable speeds where everyone can sound good. I’ve listened to and timed over 500 recorded tunes by several dozen well-respected Irish musicians: young, old, dead and everything in between. Reels in excess of 120 beats per minute are rare (I don’t have the numbers handy, but probably around 5%). My favorites are almost invariably in the 100 to 108 range.

Yet we have two players, one a regular and one semi-regular, at our session who rarely play a reel under 120. I’ve timed the piper at about 138 on occasion, and often at 128. He’s usually pretty good at following the tempo someone else sets, but does tend to start far more than his share of sets at tempos that make the other players shake their hands and arms in pain afterwards. I’ve played with him in another session where there’s a more rigid heirarchy and a strong leader who keeps him in line, but in our mostly anarchic session he lets loose.

The fiddler, on the other hand, will force the tempo up to 116 or 120 immediately when she joins in, even if we start at around 100 or 104. It’s clear that she doesn’t realize when she’s doing it and doesn’t know how to keep herself from doing it. I’ve pointed it out a bunch of times, and she’s apologetic, but does it again a few minutes later. Any ideas about how she can learn to control her tempos better?

I think a good deal of the speed problem can be attributed to three things:
1) It’s exciting to the players to play fast - there’s the thrill of taking a risk, playing at the limit of your ability and there’s the similarity to a physical workout;
2) Audiences, by and large, react better to speed than any other characteristic of the music;
3) The musicians whose CDs and live performances are most widely accessible in the commercial distribution system are (and always have been) the ones who play very fast. From the early recordings of Michael Coleman and Joe Derrane, through the Bothy Band and Altan, to Danu and Lunasa, speed sells, speed dominates the marketplace, and speed is influential on those who can’t/don’t dig deeper.

There are some wonderful players who play fast and make it work. Liz Carroll and Tommy Peoples are at the top of my list. Tommy just did a concert at my house last month. I found his playing mesmerizing rather than exhilarating. I was swaying and moving my head to the rhythm rather than tapping my feet or slapping my leg. At some point during the second set, I timed a reel set at about 134. It didn’t seem anywhere near that fast. He’s that good. But when he stuck around after the show and played with a bunch of us in a session for 45 minutes or so, he fit right in at whatever speed we were playing at.

Still, I’m finding that my favorite players take very moderate tempos. And the east Clare concertina players are better than anyone at this: Mary MacNamara, Cathy Custy, and Gearoid ohAllmhurain. Brian McNamara on pipes is also wonderful. The Kane sisters on fiddle keep the speeds reasonable.

Another thing I’ve found interesting is to compare Irish and Cape Breton tempos. In Cape Breton, the connection to dancing is much stronger. Virtually every musician plays for dancers frequently. Many musicians are dancers themselves. The range of tempos is much more limited. With the exception of a few younger players making popular recordings, reels are almost always in the 104 to 112 range, with an occasional but rare 116.

Well, I’m out of time (pun intended) so I’ll stop.

I’d be happy to have Tommy Peoples in my *state* let along my living room. Sounds like a blast!

Suggest to your hurrying fiddler that she consciously count out the beat in her head or even in an almost audible mumble before she plays a single note to join in. Ask her to think about putting some space or breathing room before the beats, rather than rushing to hit them. One way to do this is to woodshed at home on a familiar tune and strip out some of the notes, so you’re just hanging on the main note of half a bar and almost stalling the next downbeat. The idea is to think of the time between beats as stretching and empty, rather than compressed and chock full of notes. Then, as you put notes back in, they have purpose.

At least she sounds receptive to advice--that’s more than half the battle. Now just get her to listen to herself and the overall sound at the same time, and she’ll learn.

I think people who play at an uncomfortably quick tempo can easily lose the pulse and rhythm of the music, if they ever had them there in the first place. It sounds bad to the rest of the players, regardless of their ability or comfort in ‘keeping up’, and it’s definately bad practise and sure to upset one’s musical neighbours. It’s the ‘musical monkey’ syndrome. If the offender wants to impress, why doesn’t he/she/ play a fast, blistering Pag caprice, get a good clap and cheer, then go back to playing IT with the rest of the session?

I have had this problem before, and I politely but firmly tell the person that the tune set was way too fast for comfort, and if they disagree, I publicly ask the rest of the players for their opinion. That usually gets the point across, without any undue friction.

Jim

Don’t know if this would work but you might like to try it.
Between the lot of you choose an easy tune from the “best hated” section e.g. Soldiers’ Joy. Agree to deliberately drive it into the ground, choose a loud instrument to lead, start slowly and get faster until you are physically exhausted.
By overdoing the speeding together you can make your point and hopefully play in an nice steady tempo after that.
I do it similarly when I sing with my 8-year-olds at school.

Its all a matter of taste isnt it. I like a nice pace but am fierce paticular , I dont like it too fast but I dont like it too slow either.I’d say some just starting off would think my pace would be a little fast. I like the steady pace in galway Coli’s is a good pace, not munroes tho- their pace is a bit too speedy for me. But what I hate is people who slag off others for playing too fast, when they are cleary not playing too fast but the said person just cannot keep up. Not accusing anybody here of doing that but have had a conversation with a ‘tweety’ on holidays in galway going on about how everyone in galway plays too fast and how people should slow downm, when what she meant is people should slow down to accomadate her and it ends up the Tweety just couldnt actually play at anywhere near a comfortable session speed and she had been playing years and years and years. very irritating

Oh yeah, that’s why I wanted to make it clear that Aimee’s no tweety! 🙂 Kind of aggravating really, if you like slower speeds (say, under 120 rather than over) and people say, oh, it’s just because you’re a beginner and can’t keep up and can’t make it sound nice at that speed….sometimes it really does just need to be slower.

Great discussion! I had no idea the problem was so widespread.

In my case I‘M the offender. Usually at festivals I hooked up with a group (any group) that’d blaze away one tune after another. A great mando player took me aside after I’d taught a workshop and mentioned that I’d said something about the beauty of a tune comes through by using embellishments. He also mentioned that he’d never HEARD any of those embellishments ’cause I was playing so fast. Needless to say he had me thinking and roaming around that evening sitting in smaller, more intiminate jam sessions. I worked harder that evening and had more fun than I ever did before.

I’d say it’s one of the most usual, actually! 🙂 Or at least one of the ones most commonly heard around the sessions…“Oh yeah, him, well, he plays too fast for himself, you know…”

Re-reading Gary’s post and thinking about punters liking speed, I can remember a session that I don’t go to very often, though I’d like to get down there more often, down in Denver. The other fiddler and I and a backer were playing through a set rather slowly, I think it was Miss McLeod’s and Reedy’s, as no one else knew the latter and I happen to love the former at a slower speed. It was really nice to play it out that slow. The last time through Reedy’s, I realized that a group of people had been standing listening, and had been standing there since we’d started the set. At the end of the set, they all burst into applause and loud congratulations. (When we kicked back up with tunes everyone else knew, they went away again.)

So it’s not just always speed that’s appreciated…

Which ever way round you put it, I still think you’ll find it difficult to persuade a player who gets a lot of positive public feedback for playing fast to slow down! And I’d like to point out that I made no comment what I thought about Amie’s playing, I merely speculated about what the young man in question might think if she challenged him on that basis.
On a personal level, I tend to play more slowly than most in sessions around here if I lead a set, because as a ‘leading’ instrument I don’t believe the flute can set the rhthm AND ornament the tune at an ultra high speed (or rather, the flute in my hands can’t). However, sometimes I play with, for example, a West Highland fiddler who plays in that fast West Highland/Donegal style, and it can be great fun, and sound not half bad to let him drive the tune along with me accompanying him. If I was to try leading those tunes myself at that sort of speed it would sound like a real dogs dinner (or whatever a dog’s dinner might sound like).
The reason I might sound a bit Bullish on this subject is that recently, probably because I’m seen as someone who likes to play at a steady pace, I’ve had a few people whispering complaints and grumbles about other players who are ‘too fast’, in my ear during sessions. I don’t see it as a problem as long as (a) they don’t hog the whole session, and start every set, or (b) they don’t hijack your sets by adding unwanted tunes to them or join in them and force the pace up. It strikes me that either is easy to deal with - the first by simply asking if they’ll let someone else have a go (hardly an unreasonable request); the second by quite justifiably have a go at them - after all they are committing the worst breach of ‘session etiquette’ that they could!

I think its good to be able to play both fast and slower as long as its steady and comfortable, there are some amazing musicians out there that really do play very fast but I certianly wouldnt complain if I were playing tunes with them - think, Liz Doherty, Altan, 4 men and a dog etc etc. These are all amazing players, its good to be able to do both. Me and Dow run a session on thursday nights that has a lovely steady pace, but the session I go to on sunday can sometimes be breakneck speed (especially if our piper has had a wee pint🙂 And its great fun. While I prefer playing at a slightly less frantic pace I dont have any problems with people playing fast as long as its steady and they dont keep speeding it up. Oh and I was definatly *not* implying that Aimee was a tweety at all - sorry if it sounded as if it was🙂

A few comments on what bb has to say on Nov 1 & 2:

First, I agree about Liz Doherty being a great fast player. (I don’t know Altan & 4 Men well enough to have an opinion. Danu and Teada play much too fast for my taste.) But she’s not great because she plays fast, she’s great because she can squeeze all that nuance and playfulness into a tune even at great speed. I’d have to check, but I’m also not sure she’s abnormally fast. It may be an illusion from the aggressive bowing style that may be connected to her interest in Cape Breton fiddling (the topic of her Ph.D. thesis). And I know that her recorded hornpipes are among the slowest in my record collection (nearly 140 traditional Irish instrumental CDs).

Anyway, there aren’t very many musicians in the world who I think can get away with very fast tempos (say above 128 for reels). And by “get away with,” I mean make it sound great, not just be “steady and comfortable”. The problem for me is that for every one who can, there are hundreds who can’t, but insist on trying because they confuse speed with music or think that their audience will.

Furthermore, what a solo performer or band can pull off in concert or in a recording studio is very different from what a group of musicians of varying abilities and familiarity with each other, can do on the spot in a session. I think there may be quite a few session players out there (I’m extrapolating from very limited experience, so some corroboration here might be helpful) for whom playing in a session is their chance to fantasize that they’re in Danu or Lunasa.

bb says it’s great fun to play at breakneck speed sometimes. From the other side of the fence, it’s not great fun to listen to non-world-class players playing at breakneck speed on tunes that you’ve worked hard at so that you could play with them at normal speed.

I’ve been playing accordion for a year now, picking it up very fast with a ton of hard work (made easier by 40 years on piano and 12 years of listening to ITM). I specifically worked on a bunch of the reels that get played every week at our session (that I’ve been going to weekly for nearly four years). I can play them solo probably in the 90-100 bpm range. I can follow along tolerably in the 100-112 range. I can fake it in the 112-116 range, but it’s not fun. Above that, I have to put my instrument down and feel like I’ve been shoved aside. It’s like being the smallest kid on the playground and having the bigger kids refuse to let you play with them.

Last night they played a reel - I think it was the Silver Spear, but it was over almost before I could figure it out - at 138 bpm! That’s 15% faster than the fast end of the normal range for reels and about 35% faster than the slow end. When I confronted one of the instigators, his reply was “there are no Comhaltas rules here.” And no real desire to make good music or allow others to join in their “fun”.

113 is competition dance speed for over beginners. That you can do that after only a year is pretty damned good, Gary! Still, it *is* fun to play fast sometimes, just for the fun of it, and there’s nothing wrong with playing it fast even if some players can’t keep up, especially on a tune like Silver Spear that not only lends itself to it, but most of us can play in our sleep.

I don’t generally pay too much attention to how many bpm we’re playing at, to be honest, unless we’re playing for dancers, when we have to be going a precise speed. A good session just sort of goes with the flow. Sometimes it flows faster, other times slower…

Gary - what exactly are you saying!? That you time the speed of tunes being played at sessions!? Do you have a little machine or something that does this? Seriously - Define ‘normal’ speed for me - ‘Normal’ Speed in Donegal is waaahhhaaaay different from ‘Normal’ speed in Clare. Do you have to be so technical about it all? I’m not saying its great to play fast all the time - just that it cant hurt getting your speed up so that if you are ever in a session with people who play fast then you dont have to feel ‘Shoved aside’. I personally play more at a steady pace myself and prefer it to break neck speed. I remember when I first moved to dublin - god I thought that people were playing sooo fast - now I go back and realise in actual fact I was playing really really slow. So its all relative, how long youve been playing, what your local sessions are like etc. But back to this timing and Bpm thing- I’m sorry - I’m just lost for words.

What is “too fast”? Well obviously it depends on the player, but as a rule of thumb I’d say that if you can’t play cleanly all of the ornaments in the tune when you want to, then you’re playing it too fast for your current ability.
Trevor

I agree Trevor - some people play very fast but still manage to make it sound easy, relaxed and comfortable. The point I was trying to make is maybe these people (ie Liz Doherty) arent playing ‘too fast’ for themeselves but ‘too fast’ for others people. Which does not mean that they should slow down but on the other hand maybe if people dont like it go play somewhere else - or start a set at their own pace, easy done. I’m still very interested on this machine that can time the speed tunes are played in🙂

The easiest way to time a tune is to use a watch with a seconds hand or display. Just count the number of beats in 15 seconds and multiply by 4. Doctors and nurses have been doing this sort of thing for ages when taking a patient’s pulse.
Trevor

Trevor - I’m actually more interested in knowing what kind of person sits there timing tunes instead of trying to actually learn them or practise getting up to speed in their local session.

bb, timing a tune is important if you’re involved in playing for set dancers. Get the speed a fraction too slow or fast and you’ll hear all about it from the floor pdq!
Trevor

I agree - but dancers dont come into sessions too often (well not the ones I frequent). There is one in sydney on wed night and the dancers come and have a set. But the thurs and sunday they dont. Plus I dont honestly think that Gary is talking about speed for dancers, I think he is talking speed for sessions and there is no ‘wrong’ speed🙂 I just think its pointless - and unless someone can fill me in on the point then I will continue to think its pointless going on about tunes being 35% faster than this or that. I’m really having trouble understanding it!

From my angle, the point is that good players sound effortless at whatever speed they choose to play a tune. And they can make a tune sound lively even at slower tempo. But I think some people confuse that liveliness with speed, and you’ll occasionally hear them at sessions, attempting to sound like their recording star idols, ripping through a tune faster than anyone’s (even far more proficient players) ever recorded it.

What I read in Gary’s post is that some people take a tune recorded at 130 bpm, learn it, and then play it at their local sesh at 150 bpm, making up with speed for what they lack in lift and pulse and liveliness. And it sounds like crap and annoys other players.

But I’ve run into the converse too, where a relative beginner stomped out of a session because the rest of us wouldn’t slow down. We *weren’t* playing too fast--for our own abilities at least--but this person couldn’t keep up. Obviously, it’s not the session’s responsibility to crawl for every newcomer. Sure, we’ll play a tune slow now and then to encourage someone along, but not all night. (That’s why we have a monthly slow session.)

Will’s got it right. Here’s the treatise I wrote during the time his post appeared:

Looks like I stirred up a hornets’ nest!

First, to answer bb about what kind of person times tunes at a session: an obsessive mathematician. I don’t time tunes “instead of trying to actually learn them or practise getting them up to speed”. I time them when they are too fast for me to play along with. There’s nothing else to do when sitting there listening to the fast players indulging their egos. Am I supposed to practise while they are playing? I already know the tunes. I can keep up with probably about 50% of the numerous recordings I have of the tunes I know (over 100). The session I go to is open to all and prides itself on being inclusive. Yet nearly all of the reels are played at speeds I can’t handle without making some horrendous noises.

How do I time the tunes? When a set is going too fast for me (which sometimes happens due to an intentional or unintentional speed-up) I put down the accordion and hit a button on my watch. After two A’s and two B’s of 8 measures, I hit the button again. 30 seconds is 128 bpm. 32 seconds is 120 bpm. 40 seconds is 96 bpm. etc. You can make a table using the formula: 3840/duration. It’s different for reels with parts of only 4 measures, slip jigs, slides, etc., but I don’t usually worry about these, as I can usually keep up with these, and they don’t tend to rush them as much as with reels.

bb asked me to define “normal speed”. I’d say that for reels it’s 100-120 bpm. I have data for nearly 200 reels from numerous recordings (more details below). Only 8% of them are faster than 120 bpm. Only 13% are below 100. That leaves about 80% in the 100-120 range. About 10% are at 120. About 17% are around 116. Of course there’s bias based on my purchasing habits and the tunes I chose to time. I’m planning on getting more data when I have time.

Regarding people who play fast well: my data shows few who play above 120 and very few who play above 120 on more than one or two tunes. The people I’m complaining about routinely play at or above the tempos usually chosen by Liz Carroll, Frankie Gavin, Kevin Burke, James Keane, the Tulla Ceili Band, etc., etc. There’s no way on earth that they are in the same league musically as those people.

bb is right: I’m not talking about playing for dancers. I’m talking about playing good music in a social setting with players of varying abilities. What I’m objecting to is racing through nearly every single set of reels at 120 bpm or above knowing full well that it prevents some of us from joining in and it causes the guitarists to shake their arms in pain. On top of which, they aren’t good enough musicians to pull it off. Last night, the piper and the fiddler were racing along playing different tunes! They were in the midst of the second time through the tune when I said out loud: “You’re playing two different tunes!” The fiddler stopped and listened for a bit before joining in again.

OK, so here’s the data I have in some sort of presentable form. Reels only. I have some data for other types of tunes, too, but that’ll have to wait. Format is performer-region-minimum-median-maximum. Median means that half of the tunes I timed are at or below that speed and half are at or above that speed. There’s bound to be some experimental error here, but you’ll get the idea.

Altan-Donegal-116-120-124
Andrew MacNamara-Clare-96-116-120
Arcady-various-74-110-124
Bohola-Chicago-96-116-132
Damien Connolly-Clare?-104-110-128
Hammy Hamilton/Seamus Creagh/Con O’Drisceoil-Cork-100-102-104
James Keane-New York-113-116-120
Jesse Smith-Baltimore (NY Sligo style)-101-109-116
Joe Derrane & Frankie Gavin-Boston & Galway-113-116-128
John Williams-Chicago-91-99-113
Josephine Marsh-Clare-98-104-113
Kane Sisters-Galway-94-99-107
Kevin Burke-Sligo-104-113-116
Lahawns-Clare-104-120-132
Liz Carroll-Chicago-94-115-137
Mary MacNamara-Clare-87-97-101
Noel Hill-Clare-94-109-116
Paddy Reynolds & Andy McGann-New York (Sligo style)-101-110-113
Ronan Browne & Peter O’Loughlin-Clare-101-101-107
Seamus Connolly & Paddy O’Brien-Clare & Tipperary-107-109-113
Sean Nua-??-110-113-142
Trian-USA-104-113-124
Tulla Ceili Band-Clare-113-116-116
Willie Clancy-Clare-104-109-110

Overall: 74-113-142
Slowest 20%: 74-98
Middle 60%: 99-119
Fastest 20%: 120-142

[After writing this, I just timed all 20 sets of reels from the three volume set called The Fiddle Music of Donegal, on Cairdeas Recordings, which consists of unaccompanied concert recordings of 19 Donegal fiddlers made in 1995 and 1997. The low was 98, the median was 116, and the high was 128. There were 5% at 98, 65% between 99 and 119, and 30% between 120 and 128. While the slower reels popular in East Clare are entirely absent, there were only three sets out of 20 that I’d consider to be faster than the normal range for Irish music in general. The broad middle range of moderate speeds is still dominant. This might change if I had time to toss Johnny Doherty into the mix. But he’s not typical, is he? We return you now to your regularly scheduled stream of consciousness already in progress.]

It seems to me that session speeds ought to very roughly approximate this distribution unless there’s a good reason not to (eg. being a traditional session in a region where standard tempos are different, being a closed session where the players have a consensus about how they want to play, playing for dancers, etc.) In simple terms, if you play five reel sets an hour, typically one would fly, one would be leisurely, and three would be moderate. There would be plenty of variety of tempos, it would be representative of what the best musicians choose to do, tunes could be played at the speeds they want to go at, and everybody would get to enjoy it.

Zina is right about a good session going with the flow without thinking about speed: sometimes faster, sometimes slower. That distribution should take care of itself automatically if the session is working well. What I’m complaining about is sessions that get stuck at the fast end of the spectrum and don’t flow. And, sure, it’s fun to blast away on a tune once in a while. But that 138 on Silver Spear was significantly faster than all but two of the 195 reels I timed and it sounded like crap. It wasn’t just fast, it was absurd.

okay Gary - I get it now - your are totally taking the p*ss arent you! you are slagging me off and here I was biting all the while. Good one!

I think it’s quite interesting to find out how fast people play stuff, and I’m quite surprised that Gary’s data shows the average for most people to be slower than 120. You don’t necessarily have to use a watch to time it. I can usually recognise 120BPM when I hear it because it’s about the same speed as the thump of your average techno beat. 90-100 is about hip-hop speed. I like reels played somewhere inbetween. Anything faster than 120 in a session is a bit silly really.

Slagging? Not intentionally. Just responding to questions you asked and comments you made.

One more response came to mind at 3 am, after I sent that post. bb wrote earlier about having the goal of being able to play fast enough so as not to have to slow the good faster players down, citing people like Liz Doherty as an example of a fast player who shouldn’t have to slow down to accomodate slower players. It seems to me just the opposite. Good players can sound good playing slower, too. Lesser players can’t sound good above their comfortable speed. (Sure, it would be nice for that comfortable speed to be toward the high end of the normal range, but for some that may be a pipe dream.) I would expect that the best players would want to play at the speed that makes the overall result sound best, not the speed that forces some to muddy the mix or sit out. That’s certainly been my experience in the two sessions I’ve played in with famous people (Tommy Peoples and Brian Conway). They get to play at their favorite tempos frequently in concerts, closed sessions, etc. In open sessions they seem happy to go with the flow. Of course, this is a very small sample.

120BPM represents 240 quarter-notes (crotchets) per minute, and if you divide it up into sixteenth-notes (semi-quavers) you’ll be playing those at a rate of 16 per second. I’ve had it on good authority (and I can believe it, even tho’ I can’t do anything near it myself) that 16 notes per second is pretty close to a natural speed limit for even the best fiddle players if they’re using a separate bowing stroke for each note AND retaining coordination between fingers and bow. Most fiddle players, if faced with that speed for semi-quavers, will naturally slur groups of notes. This speed limit of 16nps seems to apply to most keyboard players as well, although there are some pianists who can push it to 20nps or thereabouts and still make it sound good.
The ultimate test for a fiddler’s finger-bow coordination at speed has, in my view, got to be Paganini’s “Moto Perpetuo” - all in semi-quavers. Do that one accurately at crotchet=240 and you’ve certainly “arrived”!
Trevor

So, do mathematicians ever come with a sense of humor? *grin* Actually, you do have something to do while you’re sitting there not playing, Gary. There’s drinking, for one, there’s talking to somebody else not playing, there’s listening to the music and deciding whether you like someone’s setting, whatever. Sessions aren’t really only about music, although that’s a good 85% or so, to give an arbitrary number. Sometimes it’s fun to sound like crap, too, if there’s a good enough reason for it. Relax a little, kiddo.

So maybe I’m not an obsessive mathematician, and I’ve never timed the tempo at a session, but I really appreciate the info Gary’s provided here. The fact is that it gibes well with the other measure of “normal” speeds in Irish music I’ve come across, including Breathnach (who pegs reels at 112 bpm). I don’t generally worry about these things, but it’s handy to have a reference point--especially for all those questions about tempo that arise during a slow or learning session.

Zina, it’s possible that Gary might prefer his own company to that of his session neighbors because they’re a bunch of wanker wannabes who ruin the music with speed. 🙂 Unless they’re willing to slow down a notch and become musical (what a concept), I’d be looking for a different session myself.

Bottom line: this is dance music. Even if no dancers are in the room, reels should make people tap their feet. Lift, not speed, is the holy grail. If most top-notch players keep it under 120 bpm on reels, why should the rest of us play any faster? Blow out the valves once in a while, sure, but set after set? No thanks.

Might do…might do…willing to concede that sometimes it’s more fun to play with yourself. hehe

Slow or fast? ;o)

Oh, as the mood takes one, of course…!

I actually dont remember posting anything on here even close to saying that I think we should all play like speed demons, ask Dow -I’m sure he has timed me and I’m pretty sure I play at a steady nice pace. I dont particularly like playing fast at all, much prefer a steady pace probably even slower than dancer pace.
But I really dont think being so mechanical about the tunes is what it is really all about. Its great that some people are getting a lot out of Garys posts. But I also think number 1 session rule - if its not your session dont expect anyone to just try and please you all night. If you find the session too fast, find another one. But thanks for the info lads, I’ll be sure to make sure I play the reels at no more than 118 bmps.

Um, Bridie, no one said that *you* play too fast or encourage fast playing. And no one is advocating that we should all stick to strict metronome measures of our pace. Gary’s just taken a sampling of recorded players and shared the results. No one’s suggesting we should be mechanical in our *playing*….

The point is, Gary could possibly use his findings to encourage his session mates to slow down and find a more musical pace. If his description is accurate, it *does* sound like they’re playing too fast for their own abilities. Sometimes folks need a reminder (or even an education) about tempo and lift. Not that I would expect them to listen…but if he can find a diplomatic way to suggest it, he might save himself the search for a new session. That’s basically what started this whole thread anyway--how to talk to someone about slowing down when they clearly are playing too fast for their own skills, and for the music’s integrity. I think it helps to be able to say, “Excuse me, but you’re thumping along at 186 bpm…did you know that the fastest recording of that reel tops out at 132 bpm? And that was by an All-Ireland champ on a methamphetamine/espresso cocktail at the time. Maybe us mortals could pull it off better if we dropped the pace a bit, d’ya think?” Seems to me that the numbers help depersonalize the request--so you’re not questioning the person’s ability but simply the choice of tempo.

P.S. It also sounds better than just whining, “That’s too fast.” That invites the retort, “For you maybe.” But if you say, “Wow, that was brisk. Altan plays that at only 160 bpm. Could we try it at that tempo just to see how it feels.” Seems to me, even the thickest lunkheads would eventually get the point.

I do have a sense of humor, Zina, as do most mathematicians I know, though we do tend to have strange senses of humor. It’s just that I’ve been fighting this battle for a year as a beginning player and even before that just as a listener.

Timing a tune doesn’t take much time, and doesn’t stop one from participating in those other things. I probably time four or five tunes during a four hour session. Each one takes about 30 seconds. I hit a button at the beginning and the end of one time through the tune. While the watch is running, I’m listening to the tune as you suggest, (partly so I’ll know when to stop the timer). During that time, I can talk to someone if I feel like it, or take a sip of Guinness. I typed the first sentence of this paragraph while timing a tune.

It’s also mostly the same tunes week after week, with very standard settings. There may or may not be anyone else there who knows any other settings to discuss them with. I’ve been trying to bring new tunes to the group. I’ve printed out and distributed dozens of tunes that I’ve learned that I’d like others to learn. That didn’t work (except for a few players and a few tunes). I tried recording the tunes and handing out CDs for people to learn from. That hasn’t worked either. I’ve learned dozens of tunes that they play, with almost no reciprocity.

Socially, it’s an excellent session. Friendly people, great location, generous proprietor, and smoke-free. It’s about 50% singing, which I enjoy. It would be impossible to find a substitute. Perhaps it’s the fact that all of these aspects are so perfect that makes me so frustrated that the music isn’t better.

No, bb, you’ve made it clear that you’re not especially into playing fast. But you did say “I think its good to be able to play both fast and slower as long as its steady and comfortable, there are some amazing musicians out there that really do play very fast but I certianly wouldnt complain if I were playing tunes with them - think, Liz Doherty, Altan, 4 men and a dog etc etc. These are all amazing players, its good to be able to do both.” And I’m saying that it’s unrealistic for most of us and that it’s more realistic to expect players of that calibre to adapt to the ability of the company than vice versa.

By the way, I just listened to the concert Liz did at my house in August 2002, her first full-length solo concert in the U.S. A great show, despite having bronchitis and almost not getting a visa in time for the tour. Her reels are indeed fast: mostly 124, a few at 120, and a few at 128. It’s not clear how representative this is of traditional Irish playing, as probably half of her material is from Scotland (including Orkney and Shetland), Cape Breton, Quebec, and beyond, where these tempos may be more typical. I noticed that she didn’t do many reels in the concert. She did a nice slow set of jigs and a set of slow hornpipes. Some barndances, a few slow tunes, etc.

And once again, Will gets full points for understanding what I was trying to say and why.

If you want to introduce a new tune play it until people just learn it to make you stop playing it all the time. Thats what I do and it seems to work - even Dow has learned the Up Downy reel and he hates it.
Do other musicians feel funny when you time their playing? Sorta like when someone records a session and you sort of get a bit nervous or uptight.
If I seem a bit up tight about this topic or more specifically the whole bmp thing its because it just seems very unusual to me. Not bad, just nothing I have *ever* seen anybody do before. Ive never heard anybody talk about it and in the sessions Ive attended they certainly dont bring out stop watches and talk about tunes being played at ___bmp.

‘And I’m saying that it’s unrealistic for most of us and that it’s more realistic to expect players of that calibre to adapt to the ability of the company than vice versa. ’

Sorry I disagree - We are all capable of getting to a level that is is acceptable - obviously not everybody can be ‘amazing’ but we can get to the point where we can join in without causing offense to the ‘amazing’ musicians we hear, we dont all have the time (jobs, families etc) that is, in the end our choice. And its your choice if you dont want to play fast - which is fair enough, but if you are not willing to put the effort in then I dont see why people should play differently (ie slower) to accomodate you. I’d be interested in hearing where you are from Gary because as I said before *no* sessions I have *ever* been in have been like the ones you describe. You say you’ve been playing a year - its obviously something that will get easier the more you play - just listen lots and practise.
It does sound like these people at your session play very, very fast - something which I would not enjoy - but it also sounds like they are happy doing it that way and that you are the one with the problem and who wants to change it. If that were the situation where I live I would
a) find a new session with like minded people
2) start a new session with like minded people

It is a very unusual session, and one that I’m very happy with, except for nights when the speed gets out of hand. And it’s not everyone. Not even the majority. It’s a piper who comes when he doesn’t have a gig that night (which, lately, is roughly every other week) and a fiddler who doesn’t listen to the tempo everyone else is playing at before she jumps in and speeds things up to 120. They each tend to be more aggressive than the others about starting tunes, and they are louder than anybody else, so everybody winds up following them. When they are both present, they dominate the session and play at light-speed all the reels I’ve worked hard at to get up to reasonable session speed. It’s not their session any more than it is mine. The problem, I think, is that nobody is controlling it, which is also one of its virtues.

Timing a tune is not exactly an obvious, unnverving sort of activity. If you didn’t know it was happening, you’d think I was checking the time, or setting my watch. It’s pretty subtle. I don’t time anybody else at this session. When they are leading the tunes, I’m playing along and enjoying myself. I like the people and I like playing with them. I like the establishment and have no desire to draw any of the regulars away from the session.

I can’t recall ever having a similar problem with any other Irish musician I’ve played with at this or any other session. It’s these two, one of whom is adamant about playing insanely fast and the other of whom seems to just get carried away.

One of the purposes of timing a tune is to determine if it’s really fast (faster than I would ever want to play) or it just seems that way (in which case I might work on the tune to try to get it up to that speed).

Well, it’s bedtime and I’ve spent far too much time on this topic.

as another data-point, i just had a listen to the Culan
radio program that someone posted a link to on another thread (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/folk.shtml?culan), and timed the last set of reels at just under 140. good energy!

I was playing at a Halloween dance for set dancers on 31st October, and I videoed some of it. I’ve rerun the video and timed one or two of the reels out of curiosity. They were spot on 120, Sally Gardens being a typical example.
Trevor

Heh, rog, I was thinking of posting a comment about Mairtin O’Connor’s playing on that recording. I noticed that halfway through Nine Points of Roguery, they speed up, and the swing and crispness goes down the tubes. Also, when Cathal Hayden plays banjo, he stumbles in a few spots (no major sin there), and it sounds to my ear that the speed is at least partly to blame.

O’Connor’s famous for blazing away, but even that short radio program was enough to get me wishing he’d slow down a notch-- on the jigs and reels at any rate--rather than “lashing” (his own word) into every one of them.

Gary, handing out sheet music or CDs really doesn’t work for getting people to learn tunes. My experience is that people will learn what they like and want to learn. I suggest that if you want to introduce new tunes to the session, try to convince at least one of the other players to work on them with you so that the two of you can play them together at the session. Hearing more than one person playing a new tune will provide more incentive for the other players to learn it.

Getting back to the speed thing for a moment… I read a review a while back (I can’t remember where) of Paul O’Shaughnessey’s solo album “Stay Another While” -- one of my personal favorites. The reviewer mentioned one cut where Paul started out kind of fast and then immediately slowed down. His comment was, “This man really cares about the music.”

Aimee

Thanks, Aimee. I have had some success with one person learning some of the tunes I’ve brought in. Sometimes the others show some momentary interest. Problem is, it’s the same one person who makes the effort. So I’m dependent on her showing up in order to play those tunes with anybody. (Actually, a second person has also learned a couple of hornpipes to play with me, but he’s there only every six weeks or so.)

I’ve also got a few more pieces of speed data. I listened to one of my three Johnny Doherty albums and timed about a dozen reels (I missed two when my attention wandered). He’s between 115 and 120. Not as fast as I had remembered, though maybe on the other two albums it’s different. His playing, however, feels faster than it is. And, just like the data I got from the three disc set of Donegal fiddle music, the fastest reels are no faster than in other parts of Ireland, it’s just that there’s very little variation in speed from the slowest to the fastest reels - they are all near the fast end of the normal range.

This is very similar to Cape Breton music - the range of speeds is much narrower than in Irish music. In Cape Breton it seems to be roughly 108-116, if I recall correctly. In Donegal it’s more like 113-120. Of course there are faster and slower reels in both places, but they are the exception, not the rule. For example, Buddy MacMaster would be slow by Donegal standards and Johnny Doherty would be fast by Cape Breton standards. Neither would stand out as particularly slow or fast by Irish standards in general.

I gave the Culan show a listen. I have to agree with both Rog and Will: good energy, but at the expense of good music. In discussing playing speed with Josephine Marsh a few months ago, she passed along a favorite slogan of Mary MacNamara’s: speed kills.