technology question

I followed with interest the recent thread on minidiscs. It has a lot of good information, but it doesn’t answer my more elementary question.

I need a digital recording device to record fiddle lessons and the occasional tune at a session. I’ve been using an old cassette recorder that isn’t really suitable. The sound quality is poor, and short of dubbing bits from one tape to another, there’s no way to edit it. I need to be able to easily and quickly find a tune, bits of tunes broken down for learning purposes, or my teacher’s discussion of technique, style, etc.

Is a minidisc the best source of these attributes? Or is there some other system, such as MP3, that would be better and easier to use?

I am NOT a technophobe; I have always been competent with whatever computer system and computerized devices I have ever used. However, I prefer not to devote much time learning to use such a device or editing upon it. I spend all day editing on a computer and would rather devote my free time to playing the fiddle. So as simple as possible, I say.

By the way, for recreational purposes, I understand that with a minidisc player, I can record selected tracks from CDs, organize them into logical groups, etc. From what I’ve seen, the minidisc players are small and handy for traveling. Any input on this aspect, as well?

Thanks, Carol

I understand there are digital (as opposed to disk) MP3 recorders around that are as compact as minidisk recorders (and incidentally are probably a lot more robust if dropped!). I haven’t investigated the subject thoroughly, but I would be surprised if the current batch of MP3 recorders match minidisks for recording quality, but then it depends what quality is appropriate to your purpose. With MP3 I suspect you’d still have to do some downloading onto the PC in order to do effective editing.
Trevor

Thanks, Trevor. I forgot to mention that I would prefer not to have to download to a PC. Not that I have a problem with that, it’s just that I have a couple of ancient computers (2-3 years old) with a shortage of memory (just like me!), and I’d rather not have to buy all new equipment in order to use a recording device. Yeah, I’d relish having new computers, but my bank account wouldn’t. So for now, I’d rather the recording/editing device be self-contained.

At the moment, the consensus choice seems to be the minidisc. They’re small, the sound quality is very good (much better than your typical small cassette recorder), you can separate your recording into tracks & navigate them about as easily as a cd. The downside is that the recording format is proprietary so you can’t simply transfer the digital files to your computer to edit - you have to dub the audio through the computer sound card, like you would a cassette. There are a few mp3 recorders out there that would solve this problem for you, but as far as I know none of them has a built in mic amp, so you would need a separate preamp or a mic with a built-in preamp. I don’t know of anybody who’s tried the mp3 recorder route - but somebody has to be first.

If you do go for a minidisc, make sure it has a mic input - not all of them do - and plan on spending an extra $50 or $100 for an external mic, even if the recorder comes with one built in (the built-ins are usually lower quality, and often pick up an objectionable amount of noise from the recorder’s motor).

then forget the mp3 recorders - they don’t come with removable media so you really have to upload to your computer to save anything (of course a 20GB mp3 player holds a _lot_ of music…)

I’d guess that a 2-3 year old computer should be able to manage downloading sound files from a minidisk and editing them quite efficiently.
As regards computer memory, memory chips now are fairly inexpensive, so it’s no great deal to upgrade the PC’s memory, AND it will have a better effect on performance than the more expensive option of upgrading the CPU. One important point, if you’re using a Microsoft operating system below Windows XP (e.g. Windows 98) don’t bother to upgrade to more than 160MB - in pratice 128MB is quite enough for Win98 and below. If you put in too much memory for these older operating systems then performance degrades, for some very abstruse reason that I don’t pretend to understand. If you’re using Windows XP then the more memory you can install the merrier.
You’ll need a sound card, or on-board sound chip with the appropriate line in and out sockets, but it would be an unusual modern PC not to have this.
The third important point is disk space. Sound files are notoriously large. So if a sound file is 500MB, then you’ll need at least 1500MB of disk space to handle it - the system needs the extra space for temporary working files etc. Hard disks are dropping rapidly in price, and the current minimum configuration for a PC is 80GB (80,000MB). It’s usually an easy enough matter to install an extra hard drive for data. If an oldish BIOS chip on the PC’s motherboard doesn’t like the modern large hard drives then the hard drive usually comes with a bit of software to fool the BIOS into thinking everything is OK. It works; I did it a couple of years ago on an old PC.
Sound editing software. I use Cool Edit 2000, which is as good as any and better than most. Editing a sound file is just like editing a text document, with copy, cut and paste. Cool Edit is available in an inexpensive “lite” version to try out, and some people find that this is all they need. You get the full version by sending Syntrillium the money and then they send you back a password which unlocks the full version hidden in the lite version.
The big downside of minidisks is that, being a proprietary product, you can only download from the minidisk to the PC in analog format in real time (but it’s still very good quality), which is a pain for an hour-long recording. Apparently, there’s some world wide agreement among the manufacturers to stop the domestic user from doing quick digital downloads and so using this excellent technology to its full advantage. Something to do with pin-stripe suits being worried that quick digital downloads will blow the cd market out of the water, I’ll be bound.
Trevor

Another new toy on the market is the Tascam mini CD player designed specifically for musicians. It’s basically a dedicated portable ‘slow downer’, so you can take it with ya. Allows you to loop sections, slow down and/or change keys. Alas, No record funtion 🙁

I’m not sure of the model number but I’m sure it is featured prominently at the Tascam website.

Thanks, y’all. I’m gonna have to digest this info.

Carol

Hi Carol
I have a minidisc that I purchased based on the information in the past threads, and I love it. I agree with you in that I like having a physical medial which is inexpensive and easy to store. I followed the advice to buy a Sharp, and I’m quite pleased for many reasons - I do not have any motor noise from the minidisc in the background; I can edit the recording levels on the fly while recording (very nice feature); it is very small and fits in my fiddle case, and the recording quality is excellent (especially compared to tapes).
Regarding your question about needing to “edit” the discs, I think that being able to edit recorded media is one of the best features of minidiscs! I can edit the minidiscs after recording a 4 hour session and edit out where people were talking during the session, and split up the session recording into individual tracks. You can divide tracks into as many slots as you’d like, even splitting a set of tunes up, and individually name the tracks to the tune names (if you know them). When you clean up the unwanted talking from minidisc, it does not leave “blank spaces” or gaps between the songs like editing on a tape would do - it is very much like a computer hard drive where when you delete a file, it just makes more room that’s available to use overall.
I ended up getting the MD-DR7 because I thought I would like being able to slow down the music, but it changes the pitch and I found I don’t use the feature at all. But I’d still buy it anyways, I’m so happy with it’s performance.
One last bit - I got the Omnidirectonal mics, and they work great for sessions because they pick up all the sound - I don’t have to worry about ‘pointing’ them to the optimal location, I just place them on a table in the middle of the group.
Hope this helps.
Heidi

I forgot to add that my minidisc recorder is about 3“ square by 3/4” high, so it’s very compact! I’ve traveled with it all over on airplanes and taken it to sessions in various parts of the country and not found it a bother to have around. Both it and the Mic fit into my jacket pocket (or fiddle case), so it’s easy to carry, and doesn’t take up much space on a table either. The media discs themselves are teeny and it’s easy to have a couple as “backups” in your bag or pocket. I find that if I use the LP2 recording, I can easily fit a whole night’s session onto that disc (great because you don’t have to change media in the middle of the session or flip a tape) and depending on the session, after editing the disc, I can fit 2-3 sessions on each minidisc and then ‘group’ them according to date of the session or by songs, etc. Or at least I could if I was more organized. ;)
I also wanted to say I chose this over an MP3 player because I could have individual discs for each event - ie, a workshop, an out-of-town session, etc. I think with a MP3 player you have to continually download/upload the tunes to/from the MP3 player to/from a computer. I don’t know that it has any form of ‘external’ storage on it’s own that you can swap around. You can probably use smart media cards in some as external storage, but they’re $$$. My last pack of 12 -80 minute minidiscs cost all of $10. 🙂
Heidi

I have a Creative Nomad Jukebox 3, a 20 GB hard-drive based MP3 player. It has inputs for an external microphone for recording. You can record in WAV format for perfect fidelity (equal to a minidisc record) or directly to MP3 at various encoding levels. I think I calculated that it will hold about 5000 hours of recording 🙂.

Unlike a minidisc player, you can upload and download directly to your computer. You might not think you want this capability, but you do 🙂. If nothing else, the Jukebox is useful as a portable music device -- which a minidisc is not (in my opinion). I’ve got my entire CD collection on my Jukebox with plenty of room left over to record sessions.

Interestingly enough, the Jukebox 3 also has a “slow down” function built into it, so it’s perfect for a session musician.

Drawbacks are (1) it’s about the size of a Walkman CD players, which is bigger and heavier and than a minidisc player, and (2) it requires a powered (amplified) external microphone. I’m currently using a cheap one available from Archos, and it does a fine job.

-- Scott Turner

Scott, I’m very interested in these machines and you are the first person I’ve ‘met’ who has actually used one. They seem very kool.

Is the mic input actually a ‘line’ input? I’m assuming that it is if you require a preamped mic.

Also, do you know if the sampling rate and resolution for WAV files are equal to CD quality, that is 44Khz and 16 bit??

Where did you get it and what did you have to pay for it??

Thanks

Heidi, thanks for all the good info. Just as I was thinking the minidisc is the way to go, along comes Scott praising the MP3. I’m still not clear. Heidi, with your minidisc recorder, I get the impression you edit it on the machine itself, without having to upload or download to a PC, is that right? And it’s small and easy to carry around, which is an advantage. Can you also download from CDs to minidisc (preferably without having to download to a PC first?)?

Scott, why do I want to upload and download to a PC, even though I think I don’t (and I specifically don’t want to have to buy more memory/equipment, etc. Seems that you can spend as much on upgrades as you would on an entire new machine.) Do I really need to carry around my entire CD collection? I usually manage to travel for a couple of weeks or more with only a dozen or so CDs, and I live, somehow.

Internal or external mike is OK with me, long as it works.

Now befuddled,
Carol

Hi Carol
I edit the minidiscs using the recorder itself. Generally what I do is bring it to work and plug it into some low power speakers I have and listen along while I work and edit it when I hear a tune end or begin. Computer not required. 🙂
For taking music from your stereo/CD’s and putting them on discs, I’ve recorded from my stereo by putting a line out from the stereo/computer into the ‘mic’ jack in the minidisc. I have not recorded songs off of CD’s, but I often record Thistle & Shamrock off my stereo because it’s on at a very inconvenient time of the day for me, and I’m happy with how the recorded show turns out. I’m sure for CD’s you can do the same thing with your stereo - and not have to download to your computer.
If you want to burn from minidisc to CD’s, which I have not tried yet, but from what I understand I would plug the “output” or speaker plug into the “mic” or input jack on the soundcard. I know some minidiscs have a USB port that you can get and some use NetMD, but my minidisc recorder does not have these features, and so I do not know any details about how they work. I think minidisco.com has some material on the ins and outs of these features.
My microphone, though external, does not require a powered/amplified microphone - it gets enough power from the minidisc to operate. I think if you are doing ‘serious’ recording, the amplified mics are of better quality, but I’m happy with the sound I get from my un-amplified mics. My main goal for the minidisc recording is to get sessions or workshops on disc, and so I’m not looking for perfect sound from CD’s. Even tho I’m not looking for perfect sound, I was very impressed with the sound quality I do get - it’s much better than a tape recorder by far! 🙂
Even with the external microphone, the whole minidisc recorder, mic, and spare disc fit into my jacket pocket easily. The microphones are not big at all, but I’m not sure how much larger powered/amplified mic’s are, and if they are externally powered, do you need to find a power plug, or do they have battery cases you have to carry around in addition to the recorder and mic?
Sorry Scott - I think I am happier with my minidisc than I would be with an MP3 player because of the compact size, the individual discs, and because it’s made to function entirely on it’s own, and does not need a computer to ‘enhance’ it at all.
Scott - I am curious - at the “wav” setting, which you said was “equal to a minidisc record” how many hours of recording time do you get? I was unsure if the 5000 hours was in reference to the MP3 encryption or the WAV format. And if you fill up to capacity, what are your options for creating more room? I would (buy and) insert a new disc - do you download the files to your PC and then burn to a CD? I can see how that would be helpful because it would be easier to share CD’s with people who don’t have recording equipment at sessions.
Heidi

Heidi, I think the only way Scott can get 5000 hours recording time on a 20GB hard disk is to use MP3 encoding at a rate of 8kbps. This will reduce a CD quality WAV file recorded at the standard parameteres of 44.1KHz, 16-bit and stereo to a mono mp3 file 1/176th of the size of the WAV file. A CD-quality WAV file at the parameters mentioned above would take up 10MB of disk space for 1 minute of sound. So, by my calculation, 20GB (or 20480MB) would have 2048 minutes (just over 34 hours) capacity of CD quality music.

MP3 compression at 8kbps would increase this capacity by a factor of 176 to 5984 hours. But is that useful for music? I’ve just carried out an experiment. I made an 8kbps mp3 version of a cd track, using MusicMatch. This reduced the size of the file from 60424kB to 345kB. But the mp3 file is now mono, and the frequency range has dropped from 20kHz to just under 3.5kHz - not exactly high fidelity! Moreover, the mp3 file at this compression sounds muffled, as if it had been recorded under running water - not quite what I’d want to be hearing all the time.

I think 8kbps mp3 is intended for archiving voice files - conferences and the like - and I cannot image it has any serious musical application. The lowest mp3 compression which, in my opinion, is in any way acceptable for music is 64kbps. This gives a stereo recording with a frequency response up to 10kHz, and reduces the file size to 1/22nd, so you’d get about 740 hours out of 20GB hard disk.

If you want acceptable sound at nearly cd quality then mp3 at 128kbps is the one to go for. This reduces the file size to about 1/11th of the original, so the 20GB hard disk would give about 370 hours of listening - which incidentally represents more cds than most people would ever get round to listening to. If you need to go even closer to cd quality then you should go for mp3 between 160-320kbps - you’ll still get a useful file size reduction, even at 320kbps.

Trevor

Thanks for such detailed information. I now feel capable of making an informed decision. (For my purposes, the minidisc.)

Carol

A useful formula for calculating the timing of a wav file recorded at 44.1kHz, 16-bit stereo (CD track quality) is
size in MB x 0.09676 = time in minutes

So you’d get a maximum of 1981 minutes of real CD quality music out of a 20GB hard drive.

Trevor

I should have said that the formula I posted earlier today gives the really accurate result, if you need it. For more mundane purposes it is sufficient to divide the file size (in MB) by 10 to get the approximate playing time in minutes.
Trevor

I have a Sony MDS-JE510 MiniDisc. I would like to burn a CD of what I have on the discs. Any input on how to go about this would be appreciated. I’m totally new to this so any help would be great. Thanks.