# Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

### Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

Solfeggio ~ and I haven’t my notes, and I need a refresher course on the old notation, another besides ABC notation that was used in the 1800s and into the first half of the last century. Here’s an example and some explanation ~

: m.,f | s .d’ : - : d’ .t | d’ .r’:- :r’ .,t | d’ :- .t : a .1 |
| s :- :s .,1 | t .,1 :s :- .1 | t :d’ :r’ .,t | ~ etc…

The apostrophe’ was just a line after the letter that was approximately half the length of the letter, on the right hand side and parallel to the upper half of say the d, the first note where you’ll find it above.

I’m assuming the half curve with a dot under it over some single letters/notes signifies a ‘hold’, the usual fermata. Over other notes there is a ^. The following groups were underlined, as that doesn’t seem to transfer onto the yeller board here and as such won’t show above in the sample ~

Bars ~
1 ~ d’ .t
2 ~ r’ .,t
3 ~ d’ :- .t
4 ~ s .,1
5 ~ t & .,1
6 ~ r’ & .,t

It has been ages since I’ve dealt with this particular form of notation, and there are different forms, just as ABC notation has been transformed and adapted for computers since it’s several from from the 1800s onwards. Any help in making better sense of this would be welcomed… But any chat, slagging or any of the usual carry on an nonsense is just fine too… 😛

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

Should it not be: "Doe, a DEER, a female DEER" Ceol? 😉

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

Not, I had a particular ‘dear’ in mind when I started typing… Nit pick, nit pick, nit pick ~ and I’m smiling, who loves yuh Mix? Now I’m really smiling, and I had a particularly shight week. Thanks for a grin so wide it hurts… 😉

Will, Brendan, you ~ I good start to the day. Now I’m off for a long walk… You’d be welcome to come along…

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

Vuvuzuela? Solfeggio? Oh my. I’ve not yet had caffeine enough for this. Back to the coffee pot with me!

### Doobie, doobie, do ~

No sh*t! ~ 😀

That’s the easy part…

### Rum-tiddly-um-dum-dee

SWFL ~ I’ve had a double expresso and am not working on a pint (500 ml) of strawberry daquiri, which I’ve just made for us, something to enjoy while we still have sunshine… Tomorrow is music and dance and heavy showers…

‘not’ should read ‘now’ in the first sentence above, not that you need any further proof of the curious mix of caffeine and rum…

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonic_sol-fa

Don’t tell anyone, but I used to be involved in shape-note singing. Now there’s an interesting system of notation…

‘shape-note’ meaning Sacred Harp…

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

We did this in infant school. There were hand signs for each note. I can’t remember them all, but do was a falt hand and ray (re?) was a sloping hand.
Does anyone else (of a certain age, I suspect) remember thsi?

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

then what is your question if you know so much about it? I was just trying to help with a link that could explain the other symbols.
sheesh.
the hand signs are easily found if you google Kodaly. but y’all probably already know that, too.

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

c, When you started the thread, I thought it was shape notes you were talking about. Definitely an interesting approach both to notation, and to group singing. Some shape note groups have sprung up in my area, and one of these days I intend to check it out.

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

I teach the origin of the Do Re Mi syllables in my music classes. It’s from the Hymn To St. John from the 11th century. Guido of Arezzo, trying to come up wtih a method of teaching his cathedral choir members, noticed that each phrase of the very familiar hymn ascended by one step;
UT queant laxis
REsonare fibris
MIra gestorum
FAmuli tuorum
SOLve polluti etc, giving him six steps which required transpositon for higher notes. Over time, the unmusical UT was replaced by DO, and the upper TI and Do were added to finish out the octave.

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

(forgot to add LAbii for the sixth step…)

### Tonic Solfa Notation ~ what is already known

d = do ~ r = re ~ m = mi ~ f = fa ~ s = sol ~ l = la ~ t = ti

~ & up an octave ~ d’ ~ r’ ~ m’ ~ f’ ~ s’ ~ l’ ~ t’

| = the same as for ABC notation, a bar line…

& more for memory’s sake picked up at Mudcat, here ~

Time ~
: = one beat
. = 1/2 beat
, = 1/4 beat

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear ~

Wyogal, I was laughing… I appreciate any contribution, but basic solfeggio I know, and I used to have some familiarity with several different systems of Sol-Fa notation, but, as said at the beginning, I’m without my notes and it has been some time since I had to deal with that system of notation. I was laughing. Your contribution it appreciated. Don’t take it personally, something sadly not uncommon on this site…

"I need a refresher course on the old notation" 😉

### "The Internet Archive"

I love ‘The Internet Archive’ ~ having just done a search there on Sol-Fa, WOW! Here’s just one example:

"The standard course of lessons and exercises in the tonic sol-fa method of teaching music : (founded on Miss Glover’s "Scheme for rendering Psalmody Congregational," 1835) : with additional exercises (1892)"

http://www.archive.org/details/10thedstandardco00curwuoft

### Homework & discovering the curious ~

The teacher’s handbook of the tonic solfa system; a guide to the teaching of singing in schools by the tonic sol-fa system ([1889]) by Alexander T. Cringan
http://www.archive.org/details/teachershandbook00crinuoft

Pages 14 & 15
http://www.archive.org/stream/teachershandbook00crinuoft#page/14/mode/2up

CHAPTER III.
THE FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES OF THE TONIC SOL-FA SYSTEM
Page 15

When a true conception of the mental effect of tones has been formed, the singer is enabled to sing with a degree of definiteness and accuracy, not easily obtained by any method of whiat is commonly termed "Singing by interval."

MENTAL EFFECTS. (MAJOR MODE.)

TE - Sharp. Piercing.
SOH - Grand. Bright. Bold.
FAH - Gloomy. Desolate. Grave.
ME - Gentle. Calm. Peaceful.
RAY - Rousing. Hopeful.
DOH - Firm. Restful.

These approximate descriptions of mental effect are only true of the tones of the scale when sung slowly; when the ear is filled with the key; and when the effect is not modified by harmony.

c ~ hmmmmmm… Does that mean playing them all together and up tempo can cause emotional confusion, stress and madness? 😎

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

and D minor is the saddest key…

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

Conventional music scores, abc notation, tonic -sol-fa - eat your heart out!

What we all should be using is "buckwheat notation"

http://www.dolmetsch.com/OldHundred.Law.375.gif

😉

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

Unfortunately the choice of smilies on site doesn’t include the one with a tear… 😏

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

If Irish Music was as complicated as this discussion i’d be out.. is there not some cerebral period musical website you could get this out of your system Ceolachan? leave us proper bogdwellers alone

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

Miss Mulligan speaks Gospel

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

"Dough, a mix for makin’ breid,
Ray, that’s me , my name is Ray,
Me, that’s me, my name is Ray,
Fa’ ? I said my name is Ray,
So - you know my name is Ray,
La - la, la, la la, la la,…….."

Can’t remember the last line - a bit of nonsense sung very late at an Auchtermuchty festival by the late Davy Steele [RIP], early 1990s, I would think. Funny the things you remember……………

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### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

If you are not interested, Miss Mulligan, then you are free to go. If you do not mind too much, other people may sometimes decide to discuss things you do not understand, which is their perogative.

: - /

😏

### ~

Well said, Eòsaph!

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### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

Much early Irish music was and is in Tonic Sol-Fa notation, and it was just such I was working on when I asked this question… I can’t help it if you aren’t interested, there are other threads to go explore…

Many older musicians I met and spent time with could read this form of notation, and write it, but nothing else…

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

‘Gospel’ according to ignorance… 😏

c. you are never not interesting.

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### Gospel according to who ~

And then there were those Irish musicians familiar with earlier forms of ABC notation, the dots, versions of tab, and other curious, inventive and individual forms… I love them all. Music interests me, is a passion, and I try not to set limits on that, following where it leads me… In this case I had some old notations and was without my usual sources and hoped someone here might be able to lend a hand, rather than merely a finger…

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### Venison sausages and a rainy day ~

I did, at the start, ask, giving an example ~ but, as usual, I kept searching and eventually found some sources of information that will likely help, and have added those above, for anyone else that might be interested…

Maybe I shouldn’t have bothered and just kept searching quietly on my own… C’est la vie…

Don’t be afraid to ask. IMHO, there is no such thing as a poor question, although like dancing it takes two. Problem with the internet is it’s not limited to just a couple of mates conversing. It’s the curse & the blessing.
Looking forward to reading what you suss out, once you regain some fluency. As it stands, you’re the resident expert, at the moment.
BTW ~ google books … sometimes they have a *full view* of certain books.

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### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

Thanks Random… I’m now working through a couple I’ve found, which I’ve listed above. I now need to take a break and work on some dances I’ll be teaching tomorrow, and then trying to get some sleep…

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

Cheers, ceolachan ~ take you time …
From the best I am able to suss out this is how the system works:
Subject: RE: Help: ‘Sol Fa’ Music Notation
From: George Seto

Apostrophes, I think, indicate one octave higher (same as Abc notation)
It is new for me, so this is rudimentary. Apologies to those who understand this method better than myself.

Here are the basic elements. 1st in the old system, followed by the same notation with ABCs.
Amazing Grace
Key F s | d:- :m.d| m:-:r | d:- :-l | s:-:s | :m.d| m:- :r | s:-:s

X:1
T:Amazing Grace
M:3/4
K:F
C2|F4 (AF)|A4 G2|F4 D2|C4 C2|F4 (AF)|A4 G2|c6|]

Wyogal, thank you. You were helpful. ;)

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### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

Well, nothing like the esoteric to get us academic types in a lather. I actually wrote a major paper on the rise and fall of Tonic Sol-fa notation in the British Isles (is that the correct way to say things these days?), though actually the movement’s center was in England. Sarah Ann Glover and John Curwen were the primary people behind the method and the teaching materials (references above). At that point in time the "approved" school method for teaching sight singing was "fixed doh" where "Doh" was always C. Proponents claimed learned "perfect pitch" as part of the reason to use that method, a claim never really substantiated. Tonic sol fa became the method of choice for the "common man." Singing schools to teach it developed everywhere, and tonic sol fa became part of the rise of "company" choruses. It was popular enough so that the notation was included in many choral editions, and not just Curwen publishers. It became such a popular method that the "authorities" finally had, reluctantly, to include it as an acceptable method for use in the schools. After the death of Curwen and Glover the method was quickly discredited by those same authorities and dropped from use.

One can see this whole thing as a clash between "the man" (authority) and the common man, or even as a clash between the established Church of England (fixed doh supporters) and fundamentalists (Curwen and Glover). It is doubtful, in my opinion, that anyone was really trying to evaluate the usefulness of the method. What was more important was pushing forward one or another world views. And, as is often the case, the people with the political power won.

This is probably more than you want to know. So I’ll stop.

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

D’oh,, a beer, I want a beer…

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

From "Music Notation and Terminology" (1907) by Karl Wilson Gehrkens:-

"Any one who has observed the teaching of school music in any considerable number of places in this country cannot fail to have remarked the great diversity of statement employed by different teachers regarding the facts which we are engaged in teaching, and the equal diversity of terminology used in teaching the symbols by which musicians seek to record these facts. To the teacher of exact sciences our picturesque use of the same term to describe two or more entirely different things never ceases to be a marvel…. Thoughtful men and women will become impressed with the untruthfulness of certain statements and little by little change their practice. Others will follow, influenced by example. The revolutionists will deride us for not moving faster while the conservatives will be suspicious of any change."

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### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

We have always said "si" and not "ti" in Spain.
Do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, si is the only system used here.
And, unlike what is stated in the wikipedia:
" "Do" is chosen to be the tonic of whatever key is being used (thus the terminology moveable Do)."

Do is always C.

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

And there’s always,

Dough, the stuff that buys my beer
Ray, the guy who buys my beer
Me, the guy who drinks my beer
Fa, a long long way to the john
So…I’ll have another beer
La, ger in a frosty mug
Tee, no thanks I’ll have a beer
And that brings us back to
Dough dough dough dough,

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

How did I forget Ray, the guy who buys my beer? For shame!

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

You beat me to it!

### Thanks for the contributions, appreciated ~ 😉

Thanks to all, Random, etc. ~ and cboody, any history of the whole thing is also welcome, by me anyway, and gam’s contribution too, and jrathbun’s beer. There must be a version for bakers too.

From what I gleaned the system of Tonic Sol-Fa notation in Ireland it was spread and picked up via the church. Some early collectors of songs in the Irish language used it, including Padraig Breathnach’s work, and as previously mentioned, I’ve known musicians who used it to notate dance music, in the same way we now use ABC notation, if not necessarily on beer coasters.

Ramiro, I’ve come across ‘si’ elsewhere too, possibly a French influence, and I think it may be the first way I’d learned it as a child…

I have seen some different ways with the system, but basically what Random gave as an example was the taken norm. I believe, if memory serves me right, underlining notes was the equivalent of either the hyphen - or brackets () in ABC notation, slurs and ties.

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

for modes I would keep Doh at the tonic for the major key related to that mode. so in A dorian, G would be doh. for some accidentals you can change the vowel for example for a raised so, use si to help you remember that it is a half step below la rather than a whole step, because you are making it resemble ti into doh.

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

Just a little test to see if the letters below read with underlines. I was going to do a little more reading to see if I can comprehend this old system. But I noticed there is almost no way to underline characters in a standard text box. On my screen the d, m, & s have underlines to the right side. How does it look in the rest of the world?
ḏ , r̲ ,m̱ ,f̲ ,s̲ ,l̲ ,t̲

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### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

‘Ol cboody and I will be arguing the ins and outs of do re mi this summer at Evart. He’d better attend my jam sessions or he WILL be talked about… .

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

Oh I’ll be there jrathbun, but I’ll miss the turkey burning this month. I may leave the jam though when you play MFFH (all ready discussed at length here, and I agree with Michael…

### Re: Doe, a dear, a female dear. Ray, a drop of golden sun. Me, a name I call myself ~

random - your letters appear this way to me: the "d" is in a box, all other letters have the box to their right with the horizontal lines the same black as the letters, but the verticals mid grey.