classical to irish

I have a quick question concerning the switch from classical violin instruction to Irish…

I took up the fiddle in the hopes of learning Irish music but at the start had difficulty finding an Irish music instructor. There was a classical instructor nearby so I thought I would start with him. I grew to like classical music and the many techniques you had to master. Recently though (after 6 months of instruction), I found someone who could teach me Irish fiddle music and decided to make the switch. The problem (for me at least) is that I for some reason learning techniques outside of what is typically used in ITM (i.e. playing in other positions than the 1st), vibrato, staccato, etc.) appeals to me because I don’t want to be handicapped. Finally the question…have other people made the switch from classical to ITM and how did they decide when the right time was? Thanks for the help.

Well,I do both.I have a classical flute teacher,and I learn ITM from listening to CDs and having gone to a few workshops.

The problem is the classical techniques do not apply to Irish fiddle.Vibrato ,stacatto,etc simply aren’t used.If you play with an arched left hand wrist, as your classical teacher has probably taught you to do,you won’t be able to execute a roll properly.If you have to play anA,D or E in classical music,you use your pinkie or move up to the second position.Irish music uses the open strings.Classical violin tries to emulate the human voice.When you play Irish fiddle you’re trying to imitate the sound of the Irish pipes.If you use classical techniques on an Irish tune,it won’t sound Irish.Witness Yehudi Menuhin’s and James Galway’s attempts to play “simple” Irish tunes.A disaster.If you try to use classical techniques in Irish fiddling,then you really will be handicapped.

Jocklet, will you please explain in detail how to properly execute a roll and why you can’t do it with your left wrist arched (or straight)? Thanks.

Hmmm. “Handicapped” is a pretty strong, dogmatic sentiment, Jocklet. To me, your notion of “classical technique” seems unduly narrow and misinformed. Not that I’m a classical player, but I’ve taken a few lessons and no one “arches” thier wrist.

Er, got interrupted there. Busy day today, ho, ho, ho.

Anyway, I have no trouble playing clean, crisp, punchy rolls with a straight, relaxed wrist. A concave, bent wrist isn’t a prerequisite to playing good Irish trad music. I’ve seen great players with wrists in every conceivable posture execute brilliant rolls. And a little vibrato goes a long way in a slow air or even on a long note or two in a reel or jig. Mind you, I use it very sparingly, as do most other trad players these days. Sure, the tradition is conservative, but it does accept experimentation and growth. Afterall, “technique” is just knowing how to get a variety of sounds out of your instrument. It’s not the exclusive domain of classical players. The more skills you have, the more you can bring out orvoice a tune in different ways. And I’m not talking about jazzing Irish music up so it no longer sounds pure drop. No one would mistake me for anything but an Irish fiddler, but I occasionally do all the things you denegrate above. And I learned to do them in this music by listening to other players whose music lives well within the tradition (just to be clear, I’m talking about Bobby Casey, Paddy Killoran, Junior Crehan, Martin Rochford, Tommy Peoples, Kevin Burke, James Kelly, the Glackins, Paul O’Shaughnessy, Frankie Gavin, etc.).

More to the point of 21’s initial post, some players learn both classical and trad, though it seems most do better with this if they learn both at the same time rather than immersing themselves in one for 10 years or whatever and then trying to switch. A lot depends on how open minded your teachers are. Some teachers hold to rigid, one-sided (and typically unfounded) “rules” about their genre, and you might come away with attitudes that then interfere with playing other types of music.

21, if you love Irish music, then by all means learn to play it. And if you want to become proficient in vibrato, up-the-neck playing, and other techniques, learn them too. There aren’t any laws against it, and it won’t hurt you. If you want to sound “authentically” Irish (whatever that means), you’ll want to spend a lot of time listening to other good Irish players. After a few years of that, you’ll have a sense of what fits in the tradition and what’s reaching beyond it, and you can adjust your playing accordingly.

i agree with will, i was (kind of) classically trained as a boy, but my dad was always into the trad music so i played classical at school and trad at home! i have no trouble executing a roll with the arched left hand (which is far better technique and should be used for trad too). Classical techniques are essential to any form of fiddling, the bowing is excellent, being able to play fourth fingers is pretty imperative, and vibrato (surely) is also essential to execute a slow air well? i would say - 21- do both, as both should complement each other, the classical technique will help your fiddle playing and vice versa. (the arched wrist is just where you use your shoulder and chin (mostly) to hold the fiddle and not your base of your palm at the neck. the wrist is not bent (or floppy) it is straight in line with the arm (kind of) sorry i cant explain it better, maybe a drawing would help.) When i used to go to fiddle competitions and before i’d sorted my “flat hand” the adjudicators would always moan about it and say “sort that flat hand/ floppy wirst/ something similar” so i did, but i can still execute a roll.

I’m just curious on everyone else’s thoughts, but I feel that it’s possible to take some classical techniques and combine them with trad techniques and hopefully use whatever technique is best for making music sound the way you want it to sound.

I saw Alasdair Frasar play this summer, and he used third position on some of the tunes he was playing. He did not perform it at this concert, but I have heard that when he used to play Jean’s Reel in the key of F, he would jump into 3rd position for parts of the tune.
I have a friend living in Dublin right now who started off playing classical (for about 10 years) and then switched to trad music, and he regularly is welcomed into sessions. So apparently, even the amongst the Irish players, his playing is sufficiently trad-sounding, and his playing is good enough that they keep inviting him back.
One other thing - all of the players I know who started out playing classical have developed their own techniques for playing trad music the same way as non-classical trad players - by listening to tunes over and over and trying to emulate what they were hearing, and changing techniques until they get it right.

Heidi

sorry will i posted that at the same time as your second comment! its mostly the same 🙂

*laugh*
Sorry both Mike and Will -my comment is mostly the same as your comments. I need to type faster.. 🙂

i’ll add though, when i played in school orchestras etc, at the end of a tour or whatever we’d always have a right good session, there were several drummers, guitarists etc, but out of 40 or so violinists only one or 2 were fiddlers (me and a couple of friends) and after these sessions players better than us would come and say how fantastic it had all been etc. and say they’d love to get into the music too, but they all report back after a couple of years saying they have trouble with this aspect and that aspect, they find it hard to just relax into the tunes and enjoy it as much as we did because of the years of demanding teachers etc etc. so i would most definately recommend learning both together

this is a really interesting topic though, i bet we could make a fiddle tutor from everyones input (once everyone contributes)!

Telling someone how to play a roll is like telling them how to ride a bicycle.You just listen the the experts and try and imitate what they do.I must have had a bad teacher because I was taught to play with my wrist slightly arched,and I found it a handicap when playing Irish fiddle.I’ve seen old time American fiddlers who have the palm of their hand almost flat against the underneath of the neck.Handicap is perhaps the wrong word for trying to play Irish fiddle with a classical technique.I was only talking about Irish fiddling.Scott Skinner called himself a violinist and not a fiddler,and classical training is a great help if you want to play Scottish fiddle.Traditional music is always in state of flux,and perhaps a new style of Irish fiddling is emerging,with elements of jazz and classical styles.I’ve played in a couple of bands who had classically trained violinists who thought that, with their training and technique,Irish fiddling would be a piece of cake.It wasn’t.

We’ve hashed this ad nauseum in the past, but I think it bears repeating. When classically trained players can’t immediately play Irish well, it’s not their technique that’s getting in the way, but their limited exposure to the music (and, for some, their uppity attitude 🙂. A classical violinist should not expect to waltz into a session and be able to fit right in any more than an Irish fiddler would expect to take first chair in the Dublin Symphony. No matter what style of music you play, you can’t just jump into another style and play well without studying it (lots of listening, understanding the elements that comprise that style, and actually working on your chops) first.

Jocklet, do a search for “rolls” and you’ll find several lengthy threads where some of us old timers go on and on, in lethal detail, about all the nuances and motions that go into playing a roll on fiddle. It can be broken down and taught (some of us here have taught Irish fiddle for years and years), and although the timing of a roll is unique to Irish music, the basic movement and technique is not. Anyone that can play cut notes on a fiddle can readily learn to do a roll.

It strikes me as funny how often we hear from people who believe that basic, good technique isn’t “traditional.” That somehow you’re not doing it right unless your wrist is collapsed against the neck and you hold the bow way up the stick and your fiddle is coated in old rosin and your tone is scratchy (okay, I’m exaggerating here, but to make a point) and you can’t vary the dynamics or volume and you can’t read sheet music. Now, it’s certainly possible to do all these things and play wonderful music. But it’s also possible--and I think allowable--to take advantage of what thousands of fiddlers and violinists have learned over generations about getting the most out of their instruments, and still play cranking Irish trad pure drop music.

I think it’s worth pointing out that poor classical training can be worse than no training at all. I’ve heard these things so many times from people trying to play in another style to the one they were taught - like “arch your wrist, don’t arch your wrist, don’t use open strings, put your bow arm in such-and-such a position, keep your bowing wrist oh, so slack”….etc etc - most of these points are what bad teachers become fixated on, then they wonder why students can’t play anything else apart from what they were taught!

The truth is, a good classical violin teacher (and a good teacher of any other style) will have a lot in common : some of the results will be a comfortable playing position (there are a few), a relaxed but secure bow-hold, a fearless and confident attack when required (on the violin, not the teacher! 🙂, an ability to produce a range of clean tones ranging from soft to bright… and so on. The better your training, the more tools you have at your disposal. Agreed, I.T. fiddle does not proliferate with fancy thrown bowings, wide vibrato and position playing, but they do come in handy, and can give great lift to some tunes, providing they are not *Sean Maguired* (i.e. not overused).

One last point - try not to think of playing Irish music as a switch from anything - more as something else to include in your repertoire, regardless of its origins. We all treat whatever music we love with respect, don’t we?

Jim

http://www.iol.ie/~ronolan/maguire.html

“Sean Maguired” !!!!

Keep in mind that it’s much more common for Scottish fiddlers to use positions up the neck. I think of it as somewhat the same to the dancing -- Highland dancing is much more precise, formal, classically influenced, and ballet-like than Irish stepdancing, for instance, while Irish stepdancing offers a great deal more creativity (in Highlands, once you’ve learned all the dances, that’s it, whereas in Irish, you can always make up more steps) and athleticism. Most Irish music is played in first position, for several reasons, really, and with open strings -- it’s just part of the sound.

Jim, dunno about that last, overall -- because then you have to define “respect”, yeah? LOL

‘Classical technique is essential for any form of fiddling’!!!?????
I whole heartedly disagree with that statement -sorry Mike. Its all very well to talk about doing both etc, etc. But sounds to me like 21 doesnt really know much about trad (otherwise this topic wouldnt have been brought up) So to tell him its essential to get a classical technique happening is probably not the best advice to give to an aspiring trad irish musician.
I guess its what suits you best. I for one wouldnt dream of learning classical. Why? Because I dont like it - simple. I dont like scottish either - not the tunes, there are some cranking scottish tunes, but the strict way its played.
21 if you like both classical and Irish then fab -do both, I would listen to a lot of Zoe Conway tho if I were you - she seems to be one of the very, very few who is good at both.

While its always good to do things like move up the neck etc - You dont have to be classically trained to be able to do things like that. Obviously.

But you see bb, you just have very stereotypical views! you say scottish music is played strictly? thats not true, maybe scots skinner played strictly but i dont know of one of my contemporaries who has a strict style (your thinking of the strathspeys aren’t you?). i certainly dont have a strict style. the irish and scots fiddling is almost identical in every respect. i could be very wrong though! if someone could tell me the main differences between irish and scots fiddling that would be great. Ok maybe saying Essential was wrong, but the “non-collapsed wrist”, vibrato, straight bow, holding the fiddle up (and not hingin doon) are all pretty vital for versatile playing at least? no? ofcourse you dont have to be classically trained to play in 3rd position etc. that is my point! its a crossover, classical techniques complement the scots/irish fiddling, and vice versa.

i’m trying to say everyone should have a balanced view and understand that better playing is a result of embracing all styles and picking the important bits from all forms to improve your playing, and improve the sound of the music?

just read that sean mcguire article, thats quite interesting. so what are peoples opinions on mcguire? (i’d never heard of him :O !!) told you i was a newbie!

anywhere i can hear some of his playing?

Well, I for one do both also. I have an irish fiddle teacher and a classical violin teacher. Same with celtic harp. I have a teacher who teaches technique and how to “play” the harp, then I have a teacher who teaches strictly irish. And Jocklet, I do think your wrong when you said that classical training cannot apply to irish music. Sean Keane incoporates classical technique into his playing all the time i.e. shifting to third postion, vibrato etc. As does Martin Fey,and Ashley MacIssac. I think they sound perfect.

Johnathan

Ive never heard of Scot Skinner. To be honest Mike -as you get to know me and my views you will realise I’m pretty much strictly into Irish tunes. Vibrato in my opinion shouldnt generally be used - maybe in airs, but who plays airs in sessions anyway? Scottish fiddle and Irish fiddle are very different. When I hear Alisdar Fraser - who is a great musician - play, the music and the way he plays tunes sound foreign to me. Which is great. But it *does not* sound irish …..in the slightest.
John McCusker sounds different too, I think its something to do with the ornaments etc that are used and the bowing, they are different musical styles. On the other hand there are Scottish people who are amazing Trad Irish players eg Jamie Smith.
I’m not a technical person at all so it would be no use me trying to explain. I cant read music, I hold the fiddle down in front (slightly off to the side) I dont use a chin rest, I dont hold the bow in a classical style at all. Handicapped? - no, I wouldnt say so. I’m not a great player by any strech of the imagination - but I dont annoy those who are, and that to me is much more important than being a techcianlly brilliant muscian with no style to their playing.
As I said before -its about where you want to go with your music. Obviously this doesnt really apply to you mike - because you said that you listen to all types of music and take the best bits out etc. However - if you are strictly into trad and want to be the next Siobhan peoples then maybe learning both isnt really the way to go. In Ireland there are plenty of great trad teachers who focus on Technical stuff alot, Ive said it before and I’ll say it again and again and again - its worth going over and taking some lesson from teachers like these.

its true its true. you dont use a chin rest? seriously? no way? thats kind of cool. never seen that before. dont get me wrong i’m 100% trad oriented, but i dont think technically brilliant musician have no stye to their playing? but scottish music sound similar to irish compared with classical and irish? or even bluegrass and irish? i know this is the session.org and all but surely you like to go to a concert and hear fiddling?
who’s Siobhan Peoples? i dont want to be the next anybody really, just the next myself 🙂 and if that leads to a career in music? great, but it will always be in the trad stuff.
Its true this has kind of gone off the point of the “classical to irish” theme, its just that i guess no one will agree on anything like this because everyone has such varying opinions, and different backgrounds within music.
its true, what you want to do with your music should guide your playing, practicing of techniques.
you’ve never heard of Scots Skinner?? shocking! but i suppose thats as bad as me not hearing of Sean McGuire. I didn’t realise when i started on this site that it was solely dedicated to the Irish Trad, i thought it would be Scots too.
Have you heard the Mathematician?
Laird of Drumblair?
The Left Handed Fiddler ?
Miss Shephard?

i’m i illiterate? i should really re-read before posting eh? haha
what a terrible, incoherent post! (must try harder)

Er…I’d agree with beebs. There’s a big difference between the sound of a Scottish style player and the sound of an Irish style player. I love Alisdair Frasier, but I wouldn’t mistake him for an Irish player at almost any point in time, and while I’ve *heard of Skinner, I’ve never heard anything by him, and I’ve only ever heard of the Mathematician and don’t know any of the other tunes you mention, Mike.

I can’t believe you’ve never heard of Siobhan Peoples, though, Mike! That’s Tommy Peoples’s daughter, and if you’ve never heard of Tommy Peoples, then it’s off to the library or CD store for you, my lad!

hehe! nope never heard of Tommy either! its coz i’m young eh? and from scotland! oh well what can you do? apart from go off to the lib and the record shop i spose! 🙂

oh those 3 tunes are great surely they’re on this site somewhere.
The left handed fiddler?????
Laird of Drumblair? they are Scots Skinner Tunes, hes a turn of the last century guy anyway so i dont know if there are many or any recordings of him

aye, Laird of Drumblair is in the Tunes section. no left handed fiddler though. Laird of Drumblair has a reel version as well which he called something else, but its exactly the same just without the scots snap, and plays faster.

I believe Angus Campbell is the reel version of the Laird of Drumblair.

Zina - “respect for the music” - yea, sounds a bit silly really…what I really meant to say was : “don’t get over-excited or over-stylise during playing and spoil the tune, be it classical, Scots, Irish, bluegrass or whatever”. You can stop LOL now, my dear. 🙂

Jim

Here’s a sample of James Scott Skinner for those who are interested -

http://www.templerecords.co.uk/home.htm

P.S. Click “Online Catalogue & Shop”

Click “Fiddle Music”.

Click James Scott Skinner -“More Info”.

Play/Download.

I’ve just downloaded and listened to that James Scott Skinner track. It’s obviously from way back when - best part of a century - as you can tell from the sound, but enjoyable nevertheless. His style of playing, to my ears, has a lot of the “classical” in it, but is certainly none the worse for it.
What is interesting is that he uses the same sort of vocal portamento technique (sliding to notes and between notes) which was prevalent in violin playing of that era, classical and others. Portamento is largely drilled out of modern classical players but I find it a style of playing that is rather attractive in the older recordings (e.g. the Casals-Cortot-Thibaud trio record of Beethoven’s “Archduke” trio made well before WW2).
I’ll probably get that JSS cd to hear more of him.
Trevor

I’m not a fiddle player, so I can’t comment on technique. However I am aware that as well as Sean Keane, there are quite a few well-known fiddlers who were also classically trained. Nollaig Casey played with an orchestra as far as I remember (RTE?), Venus Lunny plays classical music to a high standard, and I also believe Liz Kane has had classical training. My point is that the two can coexist peacefully, just like man and fish (at least according to George Bush).

Ahhh - big disagreement conan (but then - whats new!) Yeah Nollaig, Venus are classically trained - and its obvious. They sound like classical musicaians playing trad. As mentioned before and again and again - Zoe Conway gets away with it - Ive not heard anyone who can be good at both and have the ‘style’, ie when she plays her tunes you cant tell that she is also a classical player as well.
Mike - I cannot believe you havent heard of Tommy or Siobhan People’s. That is like logging onto a Electric guitar site having never heard of Jimi Hendrix!! Go and buy some albums man! They are both incredible irish players, with very technical styles who have had *no* classical training. Siobhan also has a hand problem (arthiritis or RSI) which only allows here to play with two fingers, her first and her ring finger - you would know it - believe me - shes incredible!

Didn’t Siobhan Peoples lose a finger of her left hand in an accident?
Trevor

No she didnt lose any, she cant use them to play fiddle tho.

Bridie, I beg to differ - have you got the LP Nollaig Casey did with Arty McGlynn, Lead the Knave? Some of the sets of reels on there are as good versions as I’ve heard of those particular tunes. Agreed, the slow airs and the like are VERY classical, but then you’d expect to hear her technique come through more noticeably there. Hope you’re having a great old time on the beach munching prawns and other delicacies! By the way, I’ll say hello to Jamie Smith for you next time I see him at the Porterhouse.

Nollaig (Casey) Shona Duit!

Con

In view of all this discussion I think I’m going to find it interesting to see how my fiddle playing develops.
I’ve been a classical cellist all my life and nearly 3 years ago started playing the fiddle (from scratch), BUT I’ve never been taught classical violin or played it in an orchestra so I haven’t been “spoiled” by classical violin playing as far as my fiddle playing is concerned. I don’t think the cello has hindered my fiddle playing either because the cello tends to play a supporting role in an orchestra. As far as technique goes, playing the cello has given me an understanding of the basic control of the left hand and the bow, which has certainly speeded up the technical side of learning the fiddle.
The major problem has been learning to play by ear and memory - something that doesn’t normally happen for most classical players. That problem, however, is now rapidly decreasing and I hope before long it will no longer be around.
I hope these observations may be of some help.
Trevor

Yes, I have that album. I like that album too, but the point i was trying to make is that it isnt necessary at all to have classical trainging to play trad, and that it can, in some cases not be a positive thing.
You can say hi to Jamie for me if you see him, I dont know him, but two friends of his are staying with me over the christmas - Ger and martha clancy so say hi from them. They are always whinging that they dont see him enough and are hoping he’ll come to Willie week this year!
I didnt spend christmas at the beach but did eat a huge roast dinner in +30deg celicus heat🙂

Re the Scott Skinner irish/Scottish debate - I have a Kevin MacLeod cd (Springwell) that features Miss Shepherd and The Left Handed Fiddler (great tunes). He plays this set with Frankie Gavin, and in the sleeve notes states that he thinks that “these Scott Skinner reels suite Frankies 1920’s style”.

I am a beginner and am still finding very much finding my way in trad, but what I take that to mean is that a tune is a tune, and how it is played, be it with Scots or Irish style is up to the players preference.

Or is it wrong to play Irish tunes straight - or Scots tunes with Irish “swing” (if that makes sense - I know, I’m newer than a new newbie!)

Irish, Irish???? scots,Scots?? Maybe???

For those interested, an album of remastered recordings of Scott Skinner “The Strathspey King” was released on Temple last year COMD2084. I’d post the details but it’s not an Irish CD and you’ll get them from the link to Temple records mentioned above.
All his best tunes are there and I think that it’s an important album to possess. However, I’m not sure if his “classical” style of playing appeals to me. I much prefer the more recent interpretations of his tunes (with which most of us are probably more familiar).

John

Clunk - have a look at my comments at https://thesession.org/discussions/2499.

The northern Irish style (eg Donegal) style is fairly ‘straight’, so therefore acceptable in the grand scheme of music things Irish!

Jim

Remember that thread, but first time around I lost interest when it got to wether a swede was a turnip or just a neep.

I am at the stage that just being able to play tunes at all seems so far away, and to worry wether I am developing the right regional style or am too classical or not with my technique, that I am just going to learn tunes that I like, and play them how I feel.

Surely that can’t be too wide of the mark?

thanks for the link!!

Steve.

Thanks for everyone’s post. I should mention that “handicapped” was perhaps too strong a word for what I meant. What I meant to say, or think I meant to say, was that with classical music I have been concerned primarily with technique which should become second nature eventually and allow me much more freedom on the violin. I was concerned that with an Irish fiddle instructor, I would not get that focus on technique and therefore be limited in what I could do in the future. I understand that Irish music can be relatively conservative since the melody is not to be improvised upon, like in jazz, but rather that it can vary in one’s style or interpretation of it. What led me to really make this post was listening to Martin Hayes, especially the 28 minute piece on “Live in Seattle”. I know that some will grimace at the mention of Martin Hayes and immediately respond with that not being Irish music. After having gone through listening to the 70s supergroups to more pure drop (Paddy Canny, Dennis Murphy, John Doherty, etc.) I have come to really appreciate Martin Hayes ability to interpret the tunes by varying the dynamics, speed, etc. I would like to have that ability to play with a tune and was wondering if classical music technique would be advantageous. Now that I think about it though, classical music instruction has not focused specifically on rythm which is essential to Irish music.

Enough rambling. This is what happens when I blow off work and try to write without enough coffee.

Thanks again.

JUST for clunk999, I think I’ll mention here that the tatties and neeps were a huge success with the haggis at our housewarming party. 🙂

Splendid - before you know it you’ll be deepfrying your mars bars.

Steve.