Sounding rushed….

I did go through some of the old threads but they weren’t helpful to me - they ended up talking about metronomes and counting the beat….

Assuming one can play “in time”, what can you do to make your playing sound more laid back or comfortable? Especially on fast reels (reels that are meant to be played fairly briskly).

You know how some players play perfectly in time but it sounds like they are off to the races - while others play the same speed but make it sound like they are reading the Sunday Paper? How does one get to the latter point? (Frankie Gavin vs Kevin Burke if you like)

I’m assuming it has something to do with phrasing or timing of phrases or something….

In my own case, I know that my rolls happen too fast and I’m working on that piece but even when there is not a roll it often sounds rushed. When I’m playing, however, my perception is that it is all flowing along as it should be….but when I listen back to recordings it’s just not “in the pocket” the way it could be….but it IS in time - downbeats happen on the one, etc And I think I am adding a fair bit of nyaah - at least I can hear the “long notes”.

And I’m sensing that it’s happening primarily in the latter parts of the phrases or sections but I can’t put my finger on exactly what is going wrong.

Any suggestions about how to make the shift? Is it a mental attitude? A mistake in the way I’m hearing the music?

Is it just years of experience? Playing with just one or two others who have good timing (I find sessions to be deadly for developing good timing)?

Any suggestions are appreciated!

1) Play the tunes slower and simpler, both at home and at sessions. When I’m at home, I sometimes make a game of it to see how slow I can take a tune and still keep it upright. I find this helps me to play the tune at fast tempos without losing the phrasing. I don’t play them quite that slow at sessions, but I do try to bring the tempos down somewhat, some of the time at least.

2) Breathe. Don’t just leap into the tune - breathe, get the tempo steady in your mind, and then play. At some sessions the hounds are out of the gate before you can do this. If that’s happening, let them go through it once while you breathe, get their tempo steady in your mind, and then play when they come around to the top again. If you start playing with a steady and simple pacing, you’ll help calm the tune down, even if it’s moving at a fast clip.

One problem I have when I play the tunes slower is that I tend to lose the phrasing or it changes quite a bit - so by upright do you mean play it as slow as you can and keep the same phrasing?

Yeah. The image, I guess is a motorcycle “slow race” - the challenge is to take a course in the maximal time without putting your feet down (or dropping the bike, of course). So the tune has to still sound like the tune - and yes, it’s a challenge to keep the tune sounding like the tune. And like the motorcycle event, it’s a matter of balance and subtlety, which will do you a lot of good at higher tempos.

The image I have when I play slowly is of a grand prix dressage horse in the super collected gaits, like piaffe or passage, where there is no forward motion in the case of the former, and very slow forward motion with the latter, but the horse is still moving energetically and rhythmically and perfectly balanced.

The first minute and a half show a pretty awesome passage-piaffe sequence. Worth watching the entire nine minutes if you like horses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eet-Vbg-YJ4&feature=related

play video

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

You won’t sound good up to tempo until you can play smoothly and with *everything* exactly where you want it. This is best done at an easy, slow tempo, paying attention to every detail and nuance.

Think of it this way: if you can’t make it sound laidback and effortless at a slow speed, you won’t be able to get that feel at any faster speeds, either.



Another thing that helps (and one of the details you’ll want to listen for) is where you put the pulse in relation to the beat. Players who sound like they’re off to the races tend to play slightly in front of the beat, or right on top of it. Players who sound more relaxed and effortless tend to play slightly behind the beat, or in back of it. Mind, you’re still keeping a steady beat, but just lagging a millisecond behind it. Kevin Burke is indeed a master at this.

The best way I know of to learn how to place your pulse is to play along with a living, breathing musician who can lead you through playing on the beat, ahead of the beat, and then behind the beat. Once you’ve felt it a few times like that, and explored the three main possibilities, you’ll be able to do it yourself, intentionally.

It *is* possible to do the same while playing along to a recording or metronome, but not nearly as easy as following another person’s lead.

There are tricks of the trade that really add to that laidback sound. A key one is to delay landing on the downbeats. Listen to Burke and Martin Hayes--they frequently double up the last note of the previous measure, hitting it a second time where you’d expect the downbeat note and either sliding or sort of hammering on (slurring with the bow in either case) to the downbeat.

For example, the opening line of Sean Ryan’s The Castle jig. The bare melody kicks off like:

AB|c3 B3|

But both Burke and Hayes tend to play it:

AB|B-c2 B3|

That second B barely exists in time or volume, but you’ve just landed on the downbeat “c” a hair behind the beat. Instant laidback, relaxed nyah at any pace.

“Another thing that helps (and one of the details you’ll want to listen for) is where you put the pulse in relation to the beat”

My favorite example of this is John Carty’s recording of the Silver Spear, where he seems to go from dead slow to a furious pace, keeping the same tempo the whole way through. Brilliant stuff.

This is difficult to explain written down.
A demonstration would be best! Maybe I’ll produce & post a YouTube!

But anyway…
It seems some mentally count all the beats in their heads thus (e.g. a reel):
1234, 2234/ 3234, 4234/1234, 2234/ 3234, 4234/1234, 2234/ 3234, 4234…this leads to a frenetic panic in the mind!

I halve or quarter the tempo in my head thus:
1……2……3…..4, 1……2……3…..4, 1……2……3…..4, 1……2……3…..4,…
Or
One…………………two………………….THREE…………….four……………..i.e not counting every beat but counting half bars or when extremely fast tempi, whole bars. This is a much more relaxed situation for the brain and the music, no matter how many notes there are, just naturally fit in the gaps. Counting bars leads to a smother overall tempo as well.

Sometimes you can tell how many beats are going through someone’s head by the way they bash their feet.

A great and fun exercise is to play reels as a hornpipe. If you have trouble making the distinction, think “The Sailor’s Hornpipe” in your head to get the beat and rhythm, then play a reel against that. It gives a whole new character to the tune and gives a more laid-back feeling than simply slowing down a reel. When playing alone, I will often start a reel as a hornpipe and on the third time through, kick it up to reel time, but only a bit faster, and then increase the tempo on each subsequent time through. I find this practice a lot of fun and keeps me interested in the tune, instead of zoning out.

Give it a try.

SS - I didn’t know horses could dance! Very cool….

WH - So I think what is confusing me is that I asked Kevin a) should I be playing behind the beat and he immediately said “no, no! don’t do that!” LOL and b) last week I thought I had started to figure out what you were talking about , about extending that beat into the next one. I was working on the A part of Tommy Peoples and couldn’t figure out why it was sounding so rushed so I just doubled up (or one and half-ed or one and quartered it or whatever) that first note and all of a sudden it sounded in place - I let Kevin hear it and he said “well I would have fixed it by not playing that 2nd note so strongly - but maybe it amounts to the same thing”. I’ll go back and listen to my recording of him and see if he was extending the note unintentionally or not.

He was laughing because he keeps telling me to not worry about the details and here I am worrying about the details….but I can’t seem to get there by just “feeling” it yet - despite hours (1-2 years every day) of listening to good recordings. And even though I can clearly hear it in others’ playing….I just don’t seem to be able to put my finger on what the exact difference is….why one sounds rushed and the other doesn’t and then apply it to my own playing. I suspect it does come down to these tiny details though….I’ll keep playing with the extending of the beats in certain spots.

Anyway I was just hoping that the collective wisdom of folks like you guys on here can help me figure it out…

JK - thanks for the tips! And I will re-listen to Carty’s Silver Spear!

Paying attention to the relative importance, length and weight of notes might help. For example I find that to get the lazy, rolling kind of feeling that I want a double jig to have, the timing or internal rhythm of the groups of three quavers is crucial. On the fiddle you can bring this out better than just about any other instrument with the use of the bow - length of strokes, speed of the bow, and so on.

If you can really bring this out at slow speeds, then you should be able to speed it up to very snappy tempos without losing all of that lazy, laid-back feel. Whereas if you play the groups of three with more even length and weight, it will, I think, be much harder not to sound rushed.

In reels, too, the key to playing fast - for me - is similar. Differentiating between notes that need less emphasis and those that need more means you can be much more economical with your bowing. Difficult to explain in words, though. It’s all a matter of swing, I suppose.

Ailin - I have been seriously dissuaded from hornpiping my reels….I started off playing that way and there are several players around here who do that and it is an interesting sound and I can certainly play along with them. But for now I’m trying to play reels "straight’ and get the laid back feel…..I want to master that first before I try hornpipe sounds in reels again.

Though if you have suggestions for swinging a reel versus hornpiping it, I’m all ears!

yaalhouse - Strangely, I’ve been going in the opposite direction a bit - I find that when I only count 2 beats to a measure, there is alot of looseness in where the notes can go and it contributes to tiny spots of rushing or slowing down and catching up to hit the one - if I count more then there is less slippage for me…strange I know. I now set my metronome for 4 beats per measure and I would do 8 if I could get it to go that fast LOL

I am terrible at counting so I rarely have numbers going in my head…usually just my foot tapping single or double time (which by the way I’m trying to stop doing at all for various reasons).

At Randal Bay’s camp, they tried to get everyone to tap both feet in double time to help with rhythm….with interesting results. I’ve noticed many Irish musicians, if they tap, will use both feet this way. Many of them have excellent in the pocket rhythm….

But maybe as I get things sorted out I’ll move back out to longer beats….

Jeeves - I think that’s it! I’m going to definitely give that a try…

Actually everyone has been helpful - I just realized that my posts are about why this or that is not helpful and I hate it when my students do that (why ask for advice if you’re not going to try it?)

But really all the posts are helpful. - it’s making me go back and rethink the things I’ve discarded as “not working” - maybe there is still some value there 🙂

One thing that helped me a lot was the Scottish thing of playing a strathspey, and then playing the same tune as a reel.

Have no idea what recordings you can go to, as I picked the tunes up off real people at sessions (wait, wrong thread), and consequently don’t have any names either.

The feeling of it, I suppose, is that strathspeys have tons of lift and cadence and when it goes into the reel, the tune flattens out considerably but still retains a lot of the cadence and energy it got from the strathspey.

What about connectedness of notes? Do you find that running one note into another slows it down and making them clearly separate speeds it up? Maybe I need to spend more time connecting the notes to each other and not having so much space around them?

I was just thinking about that based on what Will said….

There’s definitely a long and short, push and pull to the beats in this music. In reels, for a relaxed feel and the right sense of nyah, you’ll want to emphasize the 1 and 3 notes of every group of 1-2-3-4. As Jeeves says, you do this by slightly lengthening those notes, making them a bit louder, with a little more speed to the bow or a bit of push from your index finger. But it all happens in micro-pulses.

Not sure what you meant by “1-2 years every day,” but 1-2 *hours* a day is not a lot of playing, and 1-2 years into it is still early in the learning curve, so either way, you should give yourself a big pat on the back for as far as you’ve come and remind yourself to be patient. It takes time--lots of time, lots of time actually playing and listening to yourself (more of that than just listening to recordings).

I’d be curious--ask Kevin about the little double-note delay to the downbeat I described above. I learned that from him (about 28 years ago), so see what he says now about how that puts you just a smidgeon behind the beat, even if only for a beat or two, in a good way.

x-post.

Slurring notes obviously makes for a smoother sound and feel, and that tends to sound more relaxed. But you also want to leave empty space around notes--the small pockets of silence within a tune are crucial to sounding relaxed, as long as they’re in the right places.

One of the key things is giving every note its due. Don’t be in a hurry to leave a note just to get to the next one. I hear lots of people do this and it always sounds rushed. That doesn’t mean that each note has to be bowed for its entire duration--you can pop off a note and let it ring, or stop and let the note fade into silence.

I think having deliberately and carefully placed long notes can create the illusion you’re slowing down. It’s one way of creating space in the tune. It’s a method I quite like, especially in sets where someone is speeding up the tempo. I’ll start playing lots of long tunes at key places to rein it in. Doesn’t work, mind you -- if it’s speeding up badly, it’s because people aren’t listening! Anyway, it’s something I like doing that quite a lot of the good players around Glasgow do.

TheJigisup,

Great subject this one, I would like to be able to help you, but I’m the student in this case and probably more so than you are, what would be very useful is for someone to link to a youtube video of some good players and then explain the subtleties.

I recently came across the following video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byYDj7NtO20, it’s played at a slow pace, but there’s something very expressive/ laid back in the music, can any of you more experienced players, explain the subtleties, is the pulse behind the beat, it sounds relaxed and I don’t think it’s just a question of speed, am I hearing the double note that Will was referring to.

play video

Will -
With regard to listening I just meant I’ve been “seriously” listening to the music for 1-2 years now (I’ve been playing Irish music for 3.5 years but the first year or so I was a dabbler - then I got obsessed). And I do about 2-3 hours of listening every day (don’t worry it’s mostly to the list of guys Kevin’s given me to listen to so I’m in good hands). I practice between 1-4 hours every day (just depends on the day) and go to 4-5 sessions a week in addition to the practice time. And it’s never enough! So when I say obsessed, you have some idea of how bad it is….LOL

Well I’ll ask Kevin whatever you want (I’ll talk with him again this week). But in discussing Tommy Peoples with him that was what I was asking him about, I think. Do you know the reel? It’s got that toggle between the G and B at the beginning. So instead of playing g-b-g-c-g-b (sorry I don’t know ABC) I’m playing g-gb-g-c-g-b….or something like that.

And his response was “well you don’t have to do that, just don’t hit the second note so hard”. Then he played it and in my memory, he did not extend that first note but somehow it was right - but maybe he was extending ALL the notes or something and I was just clipping them too much? I’ll have to go back and listen to confirm what I thought I heard….

Gah this stuff is driving me crazy! LOL But in a good way…what else is there to do in life but solve these little puzzles - better than most other things to do….with a few exceptions. 🙂

I better step away from the computer for a bit otherwise I’ll have the slow downer out and start trying to hear connections between notes - time to go practice instead! LOL

Theirlandais - awesome clip! Look forward to some folks comments!

Yeah, I play that Tommy Peoples reel. In any tune that has a similar adjacent-string figure of an almost drone note on the lower string and changing notes on the upper string, one of the most common things is to pedal bow it (aka figure eight bowing). Kevin’s as good at that as anyone, and it was a focus of more than one lesson I had with him.

He’s right (naturally) that it’s more about how much emphasis and duration you dole out to each note. If you play that first G as a strong downbeat, and let it sound for its full quarter-note duration, then *all* of the other notes in the phrase can be voiced comparatively quieter. Kevin used to say that you barely have to touch the upper string notes because our ears hear them anyway--they’re higher pitched and jumping around, so they don’t need extra push to catch your ear.

What I hear in the clip of Pat O‘ Connor and Eoghan O’ Sullivan is that they’re right on top of the beat--no lagging behind--but they’re really giving each note its full due. Hanging on till the last nanosecond to go to the next note.

With a fiddle bow, there are no indicators, stops, or other physical governors to tell you when to start or end a note. It has to come from your ears. If your own playing sounds rushed, then hang onto each note longer than you think you should--looooonger. Overdo it at first to see if that helps.

LOL. My demon! From the sounds of everyone here, I thought I was the only one with this problem 😉

I will play it at home at a nice easy constant pace, maybe even work it into a noce brisk pace, but I got to a session, start at the pace I play it at, and some one grabs the pace an runs…not runs…gallops.

when I try to keep up forget it it sounds rushed on by the end of the second turn I have fallen off the train as it were.

And you feel like the whole world is watching you f**k up

Yup, got the bowing down and trying to back off the high notes…so what was the question again? LOL Is that not a spot where that beat extension happens?

I can’t make heads or tails of your ABC example - but I’ll listen to both their versions of Sean Ryan’s and see if I can grok what you’re saying….

nice brisk pace, but I get to a session…..

Pedal bowing typically happens on a phrase that starts with a quarter note, so be sure to give that note its full duration.

And five years in, don’t be too sure that you have the bowing down. I’ve been at it nearly 30 years and I still work on honing the pulse in pedal bowing.

One of the secrets to pedal bowing is to increase your bow speed for a nano second on the middle (upper string) note of the 3-note slur that crosses from low string to upper and back to low. Keep bow speed slow for the notes on either side of that high note. In practice, this is incredibly difficult to do consciously thinking about bow speed. Its easier once you know exactly how it’s supposed to sound and feel--the micro kick of bow speed happens automatically, and it’s so short and tiny that it may not even register to your brain that this is actually what’s going on. But it will give that high note just the right amount of presence against the droning lower note.

Will, great, I hear it pretty much on the beat as well, but I like the notion about hanging on to the last nanosecond..

Anyone got any youtube examples of lagging/leading (accordion preferably)

I know what you mean about how some players sound like they are “off to the races” and others sound like they’re “reading the sunday paper” lol. It really throws me off when i consider to try and learn a tune. “The Steeplechase/Graf Spee” set by Kevin Burke sounds really relaxed(but very very fun!) But it was so relaxed it was misleading and made it sound easy(which is not a bad thing) When i picked up my fiddle to try them… Well… you know where this is going lol.

Will - just want to make sure I’m following….
so in Tommy Peoples I’m doing the following bowing
Up slur on g-b
down on g-c-g
up on b
down on g

So when I hit the first b I have to be careful to just knick it, not hit it.

That’s the bowing Kevin suggested for reels - not sure if that’s pedal bowing? He calls it 3-3-1-1….3 eighths up, 3 eighths down, one up, one down. He suggested it when I was having so much trouble with reel rhythms and to get my bowing “less square”.

Anyway I like the speeding up the bow thing - I’ll try to notice whether or not that’s what I’m doing….

And I’ve been playing Irish music 3 and a half years (3.5) - so are you saying I’m too impatient?! LOL Although in my defense, Kevin once said to me “you should be alot farther along than you are” or something to that effect…I think because I can actually play my instrument (Suzuki kid) and mostly imitate whatever he asks me too - I just can’t get all the eggs in one basket yet! And neither of us can figure out why….maybe we’re both impatient 🙂 Luckily he hasn’t kicked me out for being a dunce yet…..

I think much of it has to do with how relaxed or tense the player actually is. If you watch Kevin Burke play live, he is extremely relaxed and laid back. Every bow stroke he uses almost the absolute minimum amount of energy needed.

Kevin Burke:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjhQubdPRh8&feature=related

play video

Frankie Gavin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1EU4ipTkRg

play video

Learn to breathe correctly. Concentrate on the breath instead of the tune. It takes time but the speed, phrasing, smoothness will all come out of breathing deeply. Lots of good advice above on relaxation…..

Bit of a cross post jigisup. Seems you would know a lot more than I would what Burke’s play style is like.

Question though, don’t you change up the bowing for your reels? Or is that just one example of what you might do.

Well said Enda! But what is correctly!?
To me, this is as a‘ baby breaths’, where the stomach extends on the in-breath pulling down the Diaphragm and sucking air into the lungs. As opposed to the rather more common chest breath where the chest rises and a superficial upper lung breath taken.
Its all in the breathing. Its all about self control, controlling the fingers etc to do what you want them to do, controlling the rushed mind, relaxation.
Breathing in thru the nose and out through the mouth.

Its simple, often people go about their lives tensed up, so all the time the pull muscles are working against the push muscles[extensor/flexor ] its like driving with the brakes on, tiring and wears the mechanism down .
Speed and fluidity in motion is a direct result of relaxation .
The ‘tension triangle’ face and shoulders, relax these and the body follows, so monitor your own ‘tension triangle’ and maintain a state of calm , relaxed alertness.Enjoy.

You could try practising rhythmical patterns on an open string, the way you would drum with your hands on your knees, for example. Concentrate on getting a consistent tempo with varied bowing patterns, anything you can think of, triplets, doubles, long and short like morse code, and tom-toms, step dancing… you name it, but without using your left hand. Listen to the clicks and gaps between the notes, and try to make the gaps longer and shorter as well as the notes. And don’t forget to vary the volume as well. The novelty soon wears off, but I found that disassociating the bowing from the left hand showed up a few timing problems with my right hand that I had thought were more to do with fingering.

Enda - yes what is correct breathing? I’m taking up a bit of flute - do you mean finding breathing spots like you would on the flute?

violamike - Well that’s the bowing Kevin showed me to use on reels, especially when I’m having trouble with the rhythm….it took me a while to figure it out but once I did I put it on EVERYTHING. I told Kevin I was putting it everywhere and he laughed and said “yeah, you’ll do that for a while till you get bored with it and then you won’t”. I’m still a bit in the phase of figuring out how many reels I can put it on - I think it is actually helping me figure out the phrasing. I used to just do whatever bowing but I was chopping up the phrases I think in the wrong places. Now I can see how having this bowing as a “base” to return to when I’m not sure how to phrase things is helpful….eventually I’m sure I’ll get sick of it but for now it is SO much fun - and it sure smooths out your bow on those fast ones!

And Kevin is the zen master of relaxation - I aspire to that level of relaxed alertness!


FWIW I don’t think it’s as simple as saying “relax” in my case. I often FEEL internally relaxed when I play (though I have far to go) but the playing doesn’t sound relaxed. Kevin has helped that a bit with his making sure I’m not punching notes out and so on but there’s still something else that I’m struggling to figure out….and I suspect it’s phrasing.

I was just listening to Brendan McGlinchy and he has very nice phrase endings everywhere - maybe I’ll try focusing on that for a while.

I just played with the metronome on fast on a tune I knew well for 30 minutes - just playing it over and over. It’s weird how your brain will slow things down after a while - I started to feel like I had tons of time and a few places were sounding more relaxed - so maybe it’s just playing the tunes over and over at speed until they feel slow?

I dunno I’ll keep trying!

Lots of good advice already, one specific point, already partly covered by Will and SilverS, watch the ends of phrases. Clipping the last note even just a bit short can make a phrase sound rushed, (and can lead to overall speeding up.)

Yes! If I had a pound every time a piper, especially (including me at one point :( Don’t know why, but pipers seem more prone to it than everyone else) clipped the last note of a phrase, I’d be able to buy a full set.

Righto - so relax, focus on breathing, lengthen the notes, don’t clip the phrase end, relax, watch that you’re doing the pedal bowing right, listen for gaps between notes, relax, put long notes in, slow the tune but keep it energetic, play a strathspey into a reel and listen for swing.

Oh yeah and RELAX.

Righto. I’m on it. ;)

Lots of nice suggestions guys - thanks a million!

There’s a feck of a lot of technical advice here that attempts to give solutions to something that I think is not a technical problem.

For example, there is the suggestion that slurring the bowing across strings rather than single bowing them would make you sound less rushed. I think it’s probably easier to get the timing tighter with single bowing across strings. It’s not as easy to hit the other string spot on by just lifting or dropping your arm a couple of degrees while moving it in the same direction, but I think this is irrelevant. It’s still not hard

I think Enda Scahill’s post is by the closest to getting it. I think there’s just a natural thing that you just have to relax about. It’s about not worrying about it.

I also think there’s maybe a problem about formal teaching. There’s an expectation that the pupil expects a solution to a problem, and the teacher is pressured to offer a solution. But sometimes the solution just has to come from the pupil. Relax.

But how do you relax with this music? Well, breathing is a good start, but there’s something more mental about it. About being at ease with the music. It’s about comfort. It’s could be about all these yoga hippie sh*te stuff and inner peace and lack of conflict and all that sh*te - if that’s what you buy into. But more than anything, it’s about really enjoying it. Right from the deapth of your subconcious. Really really loving it and not fighting it. Really really being in bed with it and never ever being scared of it.

About punching the notes out. Kevin likes to talk about holding the bow like it’s a small bird or a feather--no “grip.” Do that, and you’re less likely to be punching notes.

The other thing along those lines is how ridiculously little amount of bow you use to get most of the notes in this music. So much happens within a quarter or half inch of bow hair!

People with Suzuki or other formal violin training usually use a lot of bow, and it can take them years to get the motion out of their elbows and instead down into the thumb and fingers, or a tiny wobble of a nice relaxed wrist. But when you play with such extremely small movements, it’s much easier to sound relaxed and leisurely because you’re not flailing away.

Michael, I don’t disagree with your main point there--I tell my students all the time to quit trying to “make it happen” and instead just “let it happen.”

But that doesn’t work for everyone. And there are mechanical aspects to playing smooth and unhurried. If someone isn’t doing those things, their playing won’t sound relaxed, even if they themselves are falling asleep at the wheel….

I think we went through this about twenty years ago Will. It’s a fundamental thing we disagree on and the reason I’m happy to argue it with you is so that people reading the argument can make up their own minds.

You’re a good bloke to argue with.

I fundamentaly disagree that there can be anything technical in stopping your playing from sounding rushed. It’s pure mental.

You’re a teacher. And I’m not

“It’s a confidence thing” I was told by a maths coach.
Kevin Burke has all the time in the world to do his work, F Gavin looks and plays like it’s all about to turn into a car smash.
“It’s a confidence thing” seems to apply to Rugby, woodwork etc. as well.

Michael, or llig, or however you like it to be spelled, do you think it’s possible to use physical or technical approaches to achieve that mental state in which one plays calmly and without rushing?

I think this sort of thing is common in sports and martial arts - why not in music?

If not, is there any guidance you can offer other than “just relax”?

No mcknowall, you haven’t a clue what we’re talking about. Shut up.

Frankie Gavin is a a brilliant player and as relaxed as they come.

Because music is not sport, it’s art. It’s not about anything physical.

Music is non competitive. There is no relevant correlation

Sorry, is there any guidance I can offer? Yes. Love it.

Well Michael I have to say Kevin seems to agree with you. He’s determined to just prod me into figuring out the right mental state and “not worry over the details”….I’ve certainly gotten closer than I was before with this approach….but it’s not like flipping a switch for me….it’s a long slow process.

But it’s also been my experience that the devil is in the details….sometimes what sounds wrong can be as simple and changing something small. So I’m just making sure I’m not overlooking something.

Kevin and I have talked quite a bit about the differences in learning for someone who grew up surrounded by a tradition and those coming from outside (did anyone see the BBC show on the Blues recently? all those white guys trying to learn the blues….I can sympathize!).

Ultimately I think you are both right - it’s really about how you HEAR things. If you grew up in the tradition, it’s all you need - to listen to the music to learn. But if you didn’t, you sometimes don’t even know how to process what you’re hearing. And you don’t know that you don’t know (and you often quite wrongly try to apply your old ideas to the new music you’re hearing - maybe contributing to Will’s examples of bad celtic music). So it’s technical in the sense that you need things pointed out to you (holding a note longer, slurring onto a note, emphasizing one beat over another, lifting notes out versus punching them out, etc). It’s not so much the technique per se that fixes things but that it changes what you are listening for and to in the music.

That’s my theory.

Or maybe some of us are just not as smart as others and we can’t understand what we are hearing without having help….which is why some people need/want teachers and others would rather poke their eyes out than have a lesson…..LOL

All the people I know who sound rushed don’t love the music enough. They are preocupied by various stuff like wanting to sound good and not wanting to sound bad.

(It’s and odd thing. You’d think that wanting to sound good and not wanting to sound bad was really just the same thing, but oddly, it’s not.)

Oh and I resent the implication that all Suzuki kids are elbow players and “flail away”! Lucky for me I had a 20 year break to unlearn all that I guess….(for the record, I was taught the opposite - to play mostly with the wrist…that is from the Jane MacMorran/Bill Starr school of playing I guess).

I’m not really resentful - just kidding - mostly. It’s kind of a funny picture - I’m imagining a whole session of players playing reels with full bows- the pints would go flying everywhere!

ROFL

I think you’re missing what I’m getting at. The comparison to sport is not about the competitive aspects of sport, it’s about the joy that many people take in it, regardless of their cometitive standing. Of the bazillion people who ran the Boston Marathon today, very few had any intention of competing, now or ever, as runners. The rest were running for some other reason. Those people had to learn something in order to be able to run twenty-six miles at a go, and I think it was primarily “relax and let it happen”, but that lesson had to be learned physically. A flute player I used to hang with also practiced tai chi very seriously, and without any regard for competition. He often made parallels between learning to move through a form well and learning to play a tune well, and in both cases I think he was learning to enter into the spirit of the discipline through physical discipline.

What I’m saying is, I don’t think that you and Will are steering people towards different goals, and I don’t think you have any real argument there. Will has techniques, as any good teacher does, as I did when I was a teacher, for getting people into the state where they can feel that connection to what they’re doing. When that happens, they move beyond the physical concerns and start playing music - but the way they get there is by attention to the physical aspects of what they’re doing.

You don’t give a student advice about holding the bow or the pick or positioning the wrist or whatever it is because that’s what you want them to be thinking about when they play - you give them that advice because by paying attention to that for a time, they get past the point where those things are a problem for them.

And when they get past those things, they can start to understand what it’s like to fall into bed with the music. (a nice way of putting it, by the way, I’ll have to steal it)

“All the people I know who sound rushed don’t love the music enough. They are preocupied by various stuff like wanting to sound good and not wanting to sound bad.”

Well this hurts but only because it is so true. Whaaah!

I want to feel the love!!

No.

People who run marathons may well do it for many reasons other than to win, but not one do it because it’s it’s creative.

And people who play diddley music may well do it for many reasons, but not one of them will ever be any good at it unless their reason is to be creative.

I have an adult student that I’ve been working with this year. She is mostly self-taught, and very uptight. Nice gal, but always on the go, a speed reader, multi-tasking rancher. She asks a lot of questions, and wants to know exactly what is going on with the bow hand in order to make a more pleasant sound. I’ve been working with her to relax, take things slower, quit racing, and just listen to the sound without getting hung up on the details. Adults tend to over think things, little kids just “do it.” I’ve explained that she needs to be more child-like, let go, and quit worrying about the minute details.
As a result, her playing has become more relaxed and she is sounding better. She is getting compliments on her playing, and folks are noticing an improvement.
Mind you, details have their place at times, but the point I’ve been trying make with her is that there is difference between playing the notes and playing the music. I’m encouraging her to revel in each note, instead of rushing on to the next. There is only “now.” I think her speed reading training has gotten in the way of finding the “now.”

“People who run marathons may well do it for many reasons other than to win, but not one do it because it’s it’s creative.”

You seem determined to miss the point.
The point is not whether the two activities are identical - they’re not. The point is that a student of something like tai chi and a student of music both have something they’re trying to do which is expressed in physical means - the movement of the body through a form, the movement of the bow on the strings - but is not itself physical. The physical activity is not what the student (disciple, aspirant, whatever you prefer to call them) will be attending to when they get where they’re going, but attention to the physical can help them get there.

I don’t think that the physical is enough, but I think for most people it’s a good way in. Using technical exercises to get someone past the point of concerning themselves simply with the physical aspects of playing seems to me like a large part of the teacher’s art.
In all seriousness, I don’t know how someone’s going to learn to play the fiddle if all you do is give them the instrument and tell them to love it. I also know they’re not going to play the fiddle in the sense that we both mean it - not simply operating the fiddle efficiently, but playing it, you might say, from inside - if they don’t love it.

Wait does that mean Frankie Gavin doesn’t love it enough (if we use him as a model for “off to the races” playing)?

JK - I’ve actually had to teach kids to relax! Usually telling someone to relax - they do the opposite on instinct usually. LOL We do alot of “spaghetti arms” with the kids to get them to relax their arms enough to play…..it’s a mind over matter thing I guess. Isn’t that the point of most martial arts - to trick your monkey mind into a relaxed state?

I enjoy arguing with Michael because he too is a good bloke to argue with. Always reasoned, thoughtful, and able to take contrary ideas on board long enough to decide whether to discard them or let them change his thinking. All too rare qualities these days.

And I don’t think we really disagree much on this one. I have to say, for all the technique and mechanics and thinking I teach when I teach music, the real take-home I wish more people would take home is to relax and just let the music happen.

Jon’s hit on an important part of that--going through the physical process of playing until your fingers and brain are wired together for the right coordination to make music, but that’s a relatively minor side of the act of making music, especially this relatively non-technical music we play. But you *do* have to physically play for many, many hours before you and your instrument synch and you can simply play the sounds in your head.

I also agree that people tend to make great music when they turn the burner under their ego to “off” and just play for the sake of making music. Human beings aren’t very good at that, though. Lots of animals live with built-in social expectations (bees, ants, rats, etc.) but most just get on with it, forgoing all the hand wringing and self-doubt. We’d be better off if we played music the way bears play in the water….

Funny, but Burke says one of the better complements he ever got was from mandolinist Jethro Burns who said Burke was utterly physically relaxed, but “mentally fierce.”

So it’s not just relaxation, but a relaxed/intense focus. Being in the zone, in the tune.

When I listen to that rather wonderful example above I hear 1 and 3 squarely on time and slightly louder. But 2 and 4 are not quite “on time.” I think they are ahead of the beat, particularly the box bass stuff I think. For me that is what gives the music the really nice lift. It is the same idea, though a very different execution and placement, as the backbeats in bluegrass.

Anyone else hear that.

Oh! and relaxation. They are so relaxed looking and so comfortable in what they are doing.

i think a lot of the rushed-versus-relaxed thing has to do with how people a jiggering their syncopation, aka swing.

swing is just the work that african-american blues/jazz players invented to name the lilt or pulse that gives dance-based music its lift, lilt, sway, shimmy, swing. in classical conservatory-land they call it “syncopation.”

syncopation means some notes are emphasized more, others less. like in geometry where a line or spectrum has infinite points, there are infinite ways to jigger your emphasis and de-emphasis to get different degrees or types of syncopation. a spanish gypsy-flamenco habanera has a toally different syncopation distribution than that of rag-based piedmont blues, which is totally different from, say, that of french grapelli/django style music---“grapelli swing.”

syncopation can be gotten from one or a combination of factors including but not limited to: a) jiggering note duration (relative time different notes are held, holding one a tad longer and making the others shorter)---in written music, this is sometimes called “dotting” because the dotted notes get held longer. b) how hard/loud you punch/emphasize a note versus touching it less (this is fancily known as AGOGIC syncopation)….c) the relative distance of notes from each other in the scale, as they are arranged in the melody….

in traditional irish music, the great majority of the time, you are getting it from how you do a) note duratin or “dotting.” more like micro-dotting, really.

as in geometry where there are infinite points on a line or spectrum, so with dotting, there are infinite gradations of it. so even on a little island like eire, the way it is jiggered in donegal is very different from how it is jiggered in clare, and west clare jiggers it a tad differently from east clare.

which is a long way round to my two cents on your question----given able, proficient players, where the “rushed” sound is NOT coming from lack of proficiency, i find it to come from a way of swinging the music that does NOT dot much. i get the more easy, unhurried feel, even in FAST music, from the swingier, more dotted way of syncopating. there are quotes from more than one musician of greatness in more than one musical genre to the effect that, the music is not in the notes, it is in the SPACE BETWEEn the notes. it is in the silences. i personally find this to be true of faster music not less than slower. i love faster playing that has that space---which comes from dotting---and find unbearable faster playing with no or little spaces, even by extremely proficient players. so that is my fifty cents on what you may be hearing. if you amass a large enough collection of irish recordings to be able to listen to the same tune rendered by multiple different artists, you will see what i mean…..

ceemonster, swing and syncopation are two totally different things, as understood by most musicians. Swing is playing with a “dotted rhythm,” or “not straight.” Syncopation is when you put an accent in an unexpected place or a rest where an accent would normally be.

Ragtime, by definition (“ragged time”) is syncopated, but how much it swings is up to the interpretation of the player.

Metronome is a controversial topic here, but I find using one
very helpful with bowing. I don’t use it all the time. I use it as
a reality check, or like a magnifying glass. It will tell you soon
enough if a particular section of the tune is rushed. If you just
can’t seem to get together with the metronome on it, then there’s
something wrong with your concept of how that bit is supposed
to go. It could be a technique problem, but more likely you’re
just thinking about it wrong.

No, more likely you are just playing too fast. Faster than you can.

Hup,

I’m not 100% sure if this post is really about timing (well timing at the level you refer to), for me it’s more about the music sounding rushed, within what is a good timing

It’s kind of like watching Carl Lewis versus Ben Johnson sprinting, they both have impeccable timing 1 2 1 2 1 2, they both arrive at pretty much the same time, however one is gracious and smooth the other looks like he’s going to pull a muscle.

Do you get bad headaches Michael?

Yeah, you

haha

Theirlandais, actually it *is* partly about timing. Your example does a good job of spotlighting the difference between rhythm (the beat) timing (what goes on between the beats). Both Ben and Carl run with a steady (i.e., “good”) rhythm, but the timing of their leg motions is different--one is smooth and the other is jerky.

Jigisup- if you are still following, here is an offerring for you. I found a metronome to be competely uninspiring for some time. the key is to know how to use it. here is a great video by victor wooten, yes- not Irish music, and if you push the beat the way he does here, you might just get yourself in bad graces with some of your session mates, so i don’t recommend you play like this however, his method here for using the metronome to teach your self pulse is spot on. i love this video, and suddenly i am enjoying using my metronome, and playing relaxed and keeping time, in a noisy pushy session, is alot like some of the exercises he shows you here… where you can learn that the “good time” must come from you, and here is a method to get you there, you might even look forward to playing with a pushy session to see how you can control yourself once in a while.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR9to6lbqTY&playnext=1&list=PL8DD646F47133901B

play video

good luck and have fun!

I love Victor Wooten! I read his book and it was great - but hard to apply much of what he wrote about - glad he made some videos - hadn’t seen them…..

He of course is the king of groove - I’ll give it a go!

(And Kevin got me using a metronome so now I’m used to it - not afraid of it!)

Hmmm - his example seems more about timing (overall) than how to groove…..

Like even with the metronome going full force he’s got this swingy groove going - how does he do THAT?

Oh wait spoke to soon…that bit with the 16ths is FREAKY! Ack….not sure if I can do that! LOL

Love the title of this tune!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFEvFk0Jt88&feature=related

play video

One more
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sw_trDFJw8&feature=related

play video

at 5:35

(paraphrase)
“[with this ethnic music] alot of people are learning notes and whatever but what makes it sound authentic is where you place those notes”

awesomeness….

thejigisup

You should check out what he attempts to do right at the end of this clip, internal clock and all that, scary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKPYiCgCpBU&feature=related

play video

!!! LOL

You need to play with other people. check out www.tradconnect.com

Seriously? 4-5 sessions a week isn’t enough?

Looks like you like Victor too. jig. It amazing to me how using the metronome to tick off every note, even at higher speeds, suddenly starts to feel slower, and easier…. even though when i first turned it up, it felt like it was getting away from me, then it is as if my brain can slow down time, once I fully feel as if I have mastered that speed, I cut it in half, and so on. to do something similar to what he does with the 160-80-40, exercise. When he stated “fills” is where people speed up.. well ornaments is usually where session-heads do the same, and you really notice it when you do that half-half-half exercise. It’s a great exercise. I don’t know about that whole 16th and-swing bit… but he does another similar where he puts the click later like on the 3rd beat I think… can’t remember… that is excellent… that is my next move to conquer…. but really learning to put that click any where in the tune, and stay in control, that is the kind of time mastery we need, to feel comfortable in group play at higher speeds.

“too fast” --- surprisingly simplistic, Mr Gill

SB - I know what you mean about your perception of time changing with the use of the metronome - the human brain is weird!

And I’m not sure if it’s from using the ’nome or not but I’m beginning to get that same time shift while playing at sessions - like there is OCEANS of time around the notes. Or maybe it’s just getting more familiar with the tunes….who knows.

I spent almost 2 hours today just trying to just move the click to the 2/4…..I did it successfully once - gah! I can do it with my feet or hands or whatever fairly easily but as soon as that instrument goes, it wants to drift towards that click being the one….

When it DID work, I could hear how my notes around the off-beats were not timed right (or not in the pocket). But it was so frustrating to get my brain to make the internal shift that I stopped before I got very far.

I tried a different tactic (focusing on swing) that seemed to work better and easier but I need to play with it more before I report success….

All these great suggestions have kind of jogged my ideas of how to think about this stuff….