do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

dia duit ta me ag scriobh seo mar silim go bheidh tir s’againn nios fearr agus ba mhaith liom duine cuidi liom gaeilge a churr gach ait sa tir

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

caithfaidh muid a chonail a usaid gaeilge s’againn mar ma deanann muid dearmuid ta muid ag glacadh muid s’againn sios is fuath liom an fhac nach usaidann muid e mar ta cuid mhor charaí agam o aitanna mar an pholann agus lithuanana agus bionn said ag caint ina teanga agus is fuath liom an fhac nach bhfuil gaeilge ag duine ar bith silim go bionn se i chuir an chiall orainn go bhfuil muid lach chulture agus is fuath liom e is gra liom mo teanga agus is gra liom mo tir le do thoil mo chara an dtig liabh foilim an gaeilge do na duine agus na pasiti as an tir seo agus lig do feicann cad e mar ata a fior chulture agus a fior tir 🙂 🙂

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

Nope, if the ‘young people’ want to speak the language they will. Why shove it down their throats? As has often been pointed out, this music has survived and even thrived well enough without any state or official intervention. Indeed quite the opposite, the state and powers that be sought, in the past, to suppress this music.

Maybe there’s a lesson in that for the Irish language movement, though I wouldn’t be too hopeful of it being adopted…

Posted .

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

maybe if we influeneed it and promoted it we wouldnt have to force it but make it more advertised to say ‘heyy your true language is available to learn’ though its their choice to speak it or not but heyy im just saying we should promote it more by gaeltachts or tv or something to say you have a opportunity its their choice but i just want them to recognise the opportunity and since it isnt well promoted i think the gov should promote it a bit more with irish magazines and newspaper just to give us irish speaskers a chance to use our irish not forget it 🙂 🙂

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

I’m always in favour of assisting those who wish to learn.
I’m always against those who profess to know what is in the best interests of others.

Posted by .

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

"I’m always in favour of assisting those who wish to learn.
I’m always against those who profess to know what is in the best interests of others." gam

Here here.

If you want to make gaelic cool in the eyes of the youth, hire a marketing company and target the cities in the same way the Irish tourist board target the rest of us. Then you can let them, the youths, take it or leave it. You can lead a horse to water……..

I watched a BBC4 program that sought to re-inspire and remind the Geordies that clog dancing is a fading tradition and is something of theirs thats being lost. Basically the planners of the event choreographed a massive dance routine in secret and unleashed it commando style one Saturday afternoon in down town Newcastle city centre. 2 minutes that shook Newcastle, marvelous and great television, and I can’t help thinking that this method turned more heads than any amount of campaigning ever would.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

Well said Gam

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

Do those opportunities not already exist? When I was in Ireland, I found there were Irish courses in the Gaeltachts (which seemed to have more American students than ones from anywhere else), a TV station, a radio station, Irish language schools, etc, not to mention requirements of a basic level of fluency for certain professions and stuff like that. If you want to learn it, the opportunities seemed to be there to do so. If the concern is that "young people" are not taking advantage of said opportunities, then that’s a whole different question.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

Gam, I’d like to learn how we can stop wasting public monies in Ireland propping up a language that should be able to stand on it’s own feet. Can you help me?

I went through fourteen years of primary and secondary education in this country and whilst I have many words of Gaeilge and even an interest in the language, I could not carry on a conversation in in. I entered No - I can’t speak Irish on the recent census, unlike many other fellow citizens who delude themselves.

I look around me in 2011 - I see kids being sent to Gaeilscoileana because their parents don’t want them to have to mix with African and Polish etc immigrants. I see free school transport to Irish schools at long distances whereas the likes of us have to pay for school transport to local schools. I see extra points being given for exams done in Irish which skews the whole entry system to college. I see endless waste of public money translating information pamhlets and the like, public signage etc. into both languages in the many parts of the country which are not Irish speaking. I see the recent proposal to take away the compulsory taking of Irish in final exams greeted by the Gaeltachts not as a loss to the language but a loss to their pockets as the middle class parents in the rest of the country wouldn’t then send their kids on summer courses. I read of steadily declining use of Irish in the same Gaeltachts despite the fact that they are propped up by taxpayers moneys, extra grants etc

What more promotion do you want? Learn the language or get fifty lashes from the local Gaelgoirs?

Posted .

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

If our friend is so interested getting gaelic "speaking" on the session, why doesn’t he approach Jeremy to set up anothe page so that he & his like thinking friends can do all thei posting in their favourite language.
Would that not be a greater incentive for them than trying to wreck a site that has progressed so well for so many years.
We could then see then how many thought like him & posted their thoughts in Gaelic.
Misa Sean P.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

I know this view will annoy many here and maybe break some hearts but surely if the ‘young people’ of Ireland want to communicate with the world in the future, assuming they can already speak English, then they would be better being encouraged to speak Arabic, Chinese, Spanish or maybe Hindi as opposed to being encouraged look back to a sentimental past and learn a lingo that only they can natter to each other in.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

I can never understand how people get through school and claim to be unable to converse in Irish given the opportunity. I bet many of them can solve a quadratic equation though they probably have very few opportunities to do so in everyday life.

The census quation asked how often you DO speak the language. Maybe it should also have asked if you CAN speak it. As an analogy, I CAN swim reasonably OK but don’t do so very often.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

Hmm, I think the census question did ask both, can you speak Irish and also how often, with a range of options. But it didn’t define what the authorities meant by ‘can you speak Irish’ - I heard somebody from the statistics office being asked about this and his reply was more or less to the effect of ‘whatever you feel yourself’ So, it’s left deliberately vague thus yielding a useless statistical result but one that suits the general political view that the Irish language is a sacred cow. i.e. let’s not face the truth.

Don’t get me wrong, by the way - despite what I say above, I’ll all in favour of people speaking Irish for the love of it.

Posted .

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

‘I can never understand how people get through school and claim to be unable to converse in Irish given the opportunity. ’

Because that’s not what the education system equips them for.

My own son has gone from someone with an open mind and a moderate interest in irish to, with the leaving cert on the horizon, to deeply resenting anything to do with it. He runs a mile at the thought of grinds or (god forbid) being sent to a gaeltacht. No different for his friends. They feel something that is not relevant to them is being forced down their throat. And they don’t appreciate it.

Posted .

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

>> I’m all in favour of people speaking Irish for the love of it.

Tricky one, that, I couldn’t agree more with the sentiment, but how are people supposed to develop that love if they never find out about it? Like this music (and most other worthwhile things in life) you have to know it before you fully appreciate it. Sometimes that implies a degree of coercion to begin with: the traditional premise of education through the ages. Having said that, it does need to stand unassisted sooner or later, if it is going to survive.

I spent last week in Iceland on a field trip - the Icelandic language seems to be under no threat at all, despite the fact that almost everyone can speak English, and virtually everything in the public domain is presented bilingually. They (rightly) assume that no one other than a native will speak Icelandic and seem utterly at ease with that fact. Country roughly the same size as Ireland, but with only 300,000 people. A sustainable native language. A good future model for Ireland/Gaelige?

Lenamore man, your suggestion seems eminently sensible to me.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

>>They feel something that is not relevant to them is being forced down their throat. And they don’t appreciate it.

I speak with no direct experience of Irish education at all, but it sounds to me that there is something wrong with the way it is being promoted/ taught. The WORST way to encourage interest amongst students (in *anything*) is to come over all worthy about it, or to promote it as a ‘cause’. I have had enough of a taste of that on here to suspect that this is indeed the mindset.

Much of the negative reaction may be connected with the compulsion involved rather than the language per se. I wonder what would happen if they made it optional…

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

That’s about it, Prof. We too have a lad doing the Leaving Cert this year, played a selection of jigs and reels on the box for the Leaving Cert music exam and would happily learn tunes and play away. He’ll do ordinary level Irish and get a reasonable result but in truth can speak French far better.

At the end of the day, the difference is that the music and the French are personal choices - things he wants to do and sees a relevance for rather being forced to.

Posted .

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

See above Ian, when the optional possibility of Irish was suggested in the recent election campaign here, there was a storm of protest from the Bean an Tí in the Gaeltachts. They have a nice handy number there in the summer months when many of the rest of citizenry send their children on summer Gaeltacht courses to help them with their Irish and interalia, their exam results. It’s a good little money earner..

Posted .

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

"The Icelandic language seems to be under no threat at all"

Well, the Mannanafnanefnd see to that. After the purging of all loanwords in the past, there is a committee to ensure that all new words follow the linguistic rules of Icelandic and, where possible, old words are resurrected to describe new items etc.

"The WORST way to encourage interest amongst students (in *anything*) is to come over all worthy about it, or to promote it as a ‘cause’."

I can see validity in that. There is always a danger of following extremist tactics of scaring people into thinking that their ‘heritage’ is in danger and using it to political advantage.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

Language committees have typically shown themselves to be completely useless, as they are unsuccessful in changing usage when usage doesn’t want to be changed

Posted by .

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

>>there is a committee to ensure that all new words follow the linguistic rules of Icelandic

I wasn’t aware of that. Hmm. I’ve always had mixed feelings about the Academie Francaise too. Instinct says you can’t dictate how people use the language, but then seeing how English too is being mangled, I kind of wish there were. Perhaps there just needs to be acceptance of the duality between what people do and what is nonetheless linguistically correct, in cultural terms. The latter can nonetheless *guide* the former, but should be wary of dictating to it; the former should accept that there is more to language than ‘anything goes’.

In Iceland’s case, I detected no antagonism towards, or intolerance of, the use of English. Perhaps they are pragmatic enough to know that cultural correctness is not the same thing as everyday practice.

WH - you seem to be confirming my suspicions that this is as much about the vested interests of special interest groups as anything genuinely cultural. Such groups often can’t tolerate freedom of choice.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

You all are talking about Irish Gaelic right? It’s a beautiful language. The only language i’ve tried to learn on my own just to know what the songs and poems were saying. I failed epicly though :/ I realized that i couldn’t learn it unless i was actually there.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

"The latter can nonetheless *guide* the former, but should be wary of dictating to it; the former should accept that there is more to language than ‘anything goes’."

A reasonable balance indeed. Iceland, of course, has a patronymic system. However, this is more than just a custom. It is on the statute books:

[..If a child is to be given a name that is not listed on the National Registrter of Persons, an application must be submitted to the Personal Names Committee for approval of the name.
A fee must be paid for a ruling concerning a new name that is not listed….

…Rules for Icelandic personal names provide that names must:

be able to have a genetive ending or have been adopted through custom in the Icelandic language.

must be adaptable to the structure of the Icelandic language and spelling conventions and

does not cause the bearer embarassment.

Girls should be given a female name and boys should be given male names.

No person can have more than three personal names…]

http://en.island.is/family/having_a_baby/name_giving

I can see merit in the ‘cause the bearer embarassment’ ruling, and I’m not slamming Iceland’s culture, but perhaps things can be learned about what not to do as well as what could be done.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

Funnily enough, naming of infants is one are where the state can retain substantial control, because it can decide what it will and what it won’t register. The consequences of not being registered are significant, if not illegal.

Again, seeing some of the names my pupils end up with (some of which I am pretty sure are just mis-spellings, and more of which are there for reasons of the parents’ social pretensions) I wish there were more regulation here. Maybe I’m just getting old…

I also suspect that this, as with many aspects of social co-ordination, is easier in countries with small populations.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

Someone once said something along the lines of ‘It’s not giving people what they want that is the problem - it’s discovering what they actually *do* want…’

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

It was noted by some ancient Greek philosopher that the very fact that you want to be a politician should disbar you from ever being one. As soon as somebody says, ‘I know, let’s all….’ I reach for my gun.
The Guy Fawkes approach to public spending is a little extreme, but he had the right idea. Maybe someone could organise a free lunch for all the world’s movers and shakers on the Isle of Xanadu and tow it out to sea during the night.

Posted by .

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

Cuireann sé idir ionadh agus díomá orm i gcónaí an seirbhe agus réamhchlaonadh a léirítear nuair a bualimid leis an ábhar seo. Ina measc tá rud éigin ciníochaí gránna faoin méid a chuireann Wounded Huzzar i leith na Gaelscoileanna. B’fheidir gurb fhear dúinn cúrsaí polataíochta a sheachaint ar an suíomh i bhfábhar an cheoil.

De réir mo thuairimse féin, más mian le Rialtas na h-Éireann an teanga a sreagadh níl le déanamh ach é a dhéanamh mí-dhleathach - tiochfaidh borradh láithreach air.

I’m am always surprised and dissappointed at the sort of prejudice and bitterness that any discussion of the langauage evokes. I think Wounded Huzzzar’s malicious and racist comments about Gaelscoils marks a new low in this area. Perhaps we should abandon politics on this site in favour of music???

My own modest proposal with regard to State support for the langauge is that it should be outlawed. That will guarantee an instant blossoming, such is the nature of the people of ireland 😉

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

My daughter is fluent in Scottish gealic, well as fluent as a 12 year old can be, but try getting her to speak it! The kids need to be convinced it’s cool to have but all official efforts are just turning the kids off. Thats a pity and I reckon it’s a similar situation in Ireland, a kind of reverse beating with an oar such as Jams O’Donnel received whilst being force fed english.

It’s funny but I actually have more conversational arabic than gaelic, although I know many many more words in the latter.

Whats needed is a strategy that makes gaelic cool to have and uncool not to. Also, in Scotland at least, gaelic should be touched on in the non traditional and former gaelic areas during early eduction. Hello thanks welcome goodbye my name is, that would be a start.

Having anything stuffed down ones throat achieves nothing.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

Hello Cian, I can agree with you on the outlawing of State support for the language. But as regards Gaelscoils, that’s the hard truth of the matter in many parts of the country. We Irish can be very racist especially when it comes to our kids. There are plenty of social groups that many parents do not want their children being educated with and influenced by. I won’t make a list but you’ll know all the usual suspects if you live in Ireland.

This attitude is alive and well not just in the main cities but also in the large & small towns around the country. Go talk to your neighbours with children and ask them where they send their kids to school and why… Of course, this is a facet of many countries around the world.

Yes, you’ll find some of the above groups in Gaelscoil but they’ll be a tiny proportion compared to the ratios in local community and VEC schools.

Posted .

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

From a constructive point of view, I would think that the way the education system approaches the Irish language needs to be totally changed.

Learning Irish in school on a compulsory basis should be dropped and replaced with a much more broad based ‘Irish studies’ course. This would cover a range of aspects including our people, music, language, history, landscape and how they all interweave.

From that, those interested in exploring any aspects further should be encouraged once they choose and show an interest in the area.

I’d have all public signage and information in Gaeltacht areas in Gaeilge only. The requirement for dual language in all other no Gaeltacht areas as demanded by the Official Languages Act should be dropped. In practice, where most people in non Gaeltacht come into daily contact with their language is in the area of placenames, many of which are anglicised forms of the original Irish. Where these are known, they should be displayed along with the anglicised names.

People of all ages should be encouraged to seek out others to speak the language with, for the love of it - just like we’ll meet a few people for a few tunes. That’s about it - take away the State compulsion and let people get on with it.

Posted .

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

WH - I think you are confusing statistics with motivation. Frankly I see the absence of a wider ethnic mix (although in ours its not bad) as one of the very few drawbacks of the wonderfully rich education my children are getting in a Gaelscoil. I consider the imputation of a racial motivation to this choice to be a deeply offensive cheap shot. Its a jibe made occasionally by people who are hostile to the langauge for whatever reason but has never been stood up by any research.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

Sorry some confusion above - I was not advocating outlawing State support for the language, I was advocating outlawing the langauge itself, this should guarantee a renaissance.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

In amongst the boredom, there is an interesting idea behind Tholler & Sunstein’s theory of Nudge (as being explored by various adminstrations round the world) - namely that the surest way to turn people off something is to compel them to do it. ‘Encouragement’ works better - e.g. "Seat belts save lives" works better than "You will be prosecuted if you travel without a seat belt".

It observes the first point about motivation - people don’t respond well to having their autonomy removed. I spend a lot of my professional life addressing this with recalcitrant students; Nudge seems to work.

The third point (that people need to see a higher purpose in what they are doing) also seems relevant.

Thank you Cian for posting bilingually for the benefit of the Gaelically-challenged amongst us.

My own modest proposal is that those who support ‘special cases’ of *any* sort would immeasurably strengthen their hand by ensuring they don’t cry ‘foul’ every time some one dares to disagree with them. Disagreement is inherent in human behaviour, and to claim a monopoly of the ‘truth’ actually weakens one’s claim.

I’m certainly not going to get drawn into in an intra-Irish discussion on this, but WH’s comments did not seem, to this disinterested observer, noticeably racist.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

Well, please accept my apologies if I offend you Cian - you obviously have your heart in the right place.

I can only speak from our own experiences of friends and neighbours. Living in a rural area, schools and who goes where gets quite a bit of attention - it defines your family. Manys the time I’ve heard of ‘local’ Gaelscoils doing well because of reasons mentioned above, although the additional CAO points for exams in Irish is also oft quoted.

Posted .

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

This discussion is really interesting from the point of an Englishman. It just would not happen in Britain (except perhaps in relation to the ethnic minorities). The English no longer have any national identity left to squabble about. Maybe that has its advantages 🙂

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

OOPPPS! Correction: England, NOT Britain (he said hurriedly). I don’t often make that mistake.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

Oh come on Ian - I’ll bet you have plenty of families in England who send their kids to Public schools and private colleges rather than the local comprehensive schools. Why - because it’s perceived that they’ll learn more about Englishness and mix with the ‘right’ people.

Look in any town in Ireland with a choice between say a school run by a religious patron (nuns, brothers) and a VEC school - there’s a clear enough division according to perceived social class. The Gaelscoils - where subjects are taught through Irish fit nicely into the better quality schools where you might avoid the ‘riff raff’.

Posted .

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

WH - you would probably do well to examine the location and catchment population of Gaelscoils across the State (urban and rural). Your class hypothesis would not survive.

On a spearate note I fully endorse Ian’s "Nudge" comments. There is some very good work in that area going on - TG4 is a shining example.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

I wasn’t saying that differentiation doesn’t happen - only that the public soul-searching about ‘national culture’ doesn’t - we don’t really have one any more. 🙂

For all of the petty ‘Little Englander’ nationalism that gets bandied around, there is no *discussion* about the constituents of, or trends within, English identity - the nationalists are certain that they are uniquely right - and nobody else gives a toss.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

Please point me to where I might find the statistics, Cian and I’ll be convinced. But I wouldn’t be alone in my perceptions:
http://gombeennation.blogspot.com/2008/07/gaelscoileanna-gaelscoils-no-foreigners.html

Again I’ll reiterate, I’m not agin the Gaeilge - love to hear it and see it more widely spoken by real people. But the issues around schools etc., is a lot more complicated, than just love of language.

Posted .

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

WH Tá neart eolas ar fáil (in ndá theanga) ar Gaelscoileanna.ie - Foinse níos iontaobhaí ná gombeennation ceapaim. Plenty of info (in two languages) on Gaelscoileanna.ie - probalby a more reliable source than gombeennation?? 😉

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

I dunno - everybody has their own agendas but just don’t shoot the messenger..

Posted .

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

Well you know, Ireland has only been a republic since the 50s, so the way of life has a big dent in it so the only way for Irish to come back to the way it was before it is to try another way of teaching in school. I’m not saying I think everyone should speak Irish… that’s like asking everyone to start driving on the other side of the road, I’m just saying that ya know because I heard that the way they teach it in school made it undesirable to learn any further…

_———From all the way over in Ohlone nation yankee doodle doo gosh danga ding dong town America———-

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

Don’t let it get lost. If you do, Ireland will become another big homogenous, amorphous cultural lump like we have in the US. that allows goofy splinter organizations like our Tea Party to get into the process and do goofy things, with no one in opposition having the moral/cultural credibility to stand up to them.

When you lose, (sort of facetiously) it is a short skip and a jump to a Dunkin Donuts, McDonalds and Chick Fil-A’s on every corner, and everyone having the most likely job opportunity of being a greeter at Wal Mart, or Joining the Military since it is a regular paying gig with benefits if you don’t mind getting shot at in a desert.

Seriously, in the US it has meant dismantlement of the union system, outsourcing of good jobs and manufacturing to the third world by American corporations who pay not taxes as it is, loss of affordable health care to the population if they have there way, and even recently in several states repeal of Child Labor laws.

Culture and what a country stands for are intertwined.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

This is a challenge in many areas around the globe where a native language has gone into disuse. Several Native American tribes also have mandatory language classes in their tribal school systems, only to see their children choose to speak a version of American English only a Los Angeles rap musician would understand. Ian Stock’s comments on the Nudge theory are spot on in my opinion. People - even children - need to see a value in something. It can be for romantic or practical reasons. But it must have a value.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

i think the younguns shouldn’t have to grind away at it if they don’t want to. however, i myself will happily accept subsidization to come to ugalway for an irish language and literature degree, as well as to use my passionate interest in the language, literature, and music of ireland, plus documentation as to my plural famine immigrant great-grandparents, as a basis for irish residency…….🙂

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

I have heard 2 things from the emigrant Irish, educated all (most of whom speak another language or two other than English and Gaelic), about Gaelic:

a) it’s poorly taught and not relevant to the modern world. People complain about being taught religious songs 400 years old, or ancient poetry, and being asked to write endless essays. What areNOT taught are practical conversation, jokes, modern music or TV or movies, etc. I get the impression that Irish teachers are a bunch of cultural blow-hards who see themselves as fighting against a sea of Anglicising darkness.

b) it’s mandatory. You wanna make a kid hate something, force him/her to study it. There is tons of modern research about literacy and 2nd language learning, and it basically says, unless a kid wants to do it, s/he won’t really learn it.

The Irish gov’t shoudl look at the Welsh— there the language is resurgent (to some extent), because young people are using it, it si well-taught, and people are improvising and changing it, rather than trying to "preserve" it in ancient form.

Also note— hebrew was a dead language until the late 1800s, and was (in modernised form) totally revived and now has about 6,000,000 speakers. You can bring languages back..but you gotta do ti right.

chris

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

Mostly true, my son is forever complaining about the poetry CDs he has to listen to ‘extremely depressing sounding, the person reading sounding like he’s in pain and dying’


On the other hand the following movie is also on the curriculum:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UleuAxTpmF4

Posted .

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

the music will promote the language among people,
I think. Get into gaelic music, and eventually you will hear it in the language. Horse and carriage stuff:
good example, great 12/8 song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb8AVVlAltk&feature=related


There now, doesn’t that make you like the language?

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

You mean Irish?

Not particularly, to be honest.

Posted .

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

both.
not a better language for that rhythm, I wouldn’t have thought. Linguistically indigenous. Absolutely beautiful match.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

To be honest this has an incomparably larger impact than a music only a small minority of people want to listen to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNFfDirBE6w

Posted .

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

no doubt. they probably think it sounds fairly cool. Understanding it is probably an entirely different issue.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

Why? Do you think it’s Irish beyond Junior cert level? Who are ‘they’?

Posted .

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

a. most people don’t speak Irish; in which case they will gain their impression by the interplay between the sound of the language and the sound of the music.
b. I have no idea, but probably not.
c. ditto - does it matter?

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

You know, you think a scottish singer will do a lot for irish (‘the language, spoken as a true fanatic) and no mention whether or not ‘they’ will understand it. But you you are rather dismissive about a song that was hugely popular during it’s run coinciding with Seachtain na Gaelige. What says that about you and your ideas on the subject do you think?

Posted .

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

not being dismissive at all about it, sorry if it came across like that. when I said people would think it sounded cool, I meant just that, not cynically. People who would understand the meaning of the Irish words in your clip, will likely have a very different impression, possibly a much more comprehensive one than people who don’t understand it. For those that don’t, I would think they, particularly the audience demographic to whom the clip is fairly directed, would find the whole thing very switched on…and for some, that would even prompt a motivation to learn more about the language.
I can imagine the same for the Julie Fowlis clip, with possibly a different demographic. But, I think the point more is, that Fowlis represents what is being done contemporarily with redelivering the gaelic language to a new young demographic. Yes, it is a Scottish context, the same has been done with Irish language in song.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

there is probably not much more effective means of promoting language than packaging it in music and song. Sitting down and learning language from a dry text, without the benefit of personal interaction and conversation or sharing song, is a pretty boring experience for most people, I would have thought.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

consider this example…young people in many Asian countries, I am thinking primarily of Japan, think that listening to English language pop rock music as cool in the extreme, even though they will have not the faintest idea of what the lyrics are about. They have an impression of the whole deal from the sound of the language with the sound of the music in which it is delivered. They aren’t that interested in the lyrics, although, because it is perceived as extremely cool, this prompts many to want to learn English. English has benefited from "cool" around the world now for a very long time, and shows no sign of abating. Why? Music has had a lot to do with it, I think.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

English - or ‘American’?

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

English. English was exported on ships to America just as surely as any other cargo would be. Same as French and Spanish. As much as English might be perceived as not a ‘musical’ language, it has been one of the strongest musical powerhouses the world has seen. It’s been delivered in musical as well as economic packages.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

But which version of it that now inspires Japanese teenagers?

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

the vast majority can’t tell or hear the difference between English English and American English. They like the sound of English packaged in the music in the visual pop rock medium. It’s the whole package. You could do it with any language if you used the right medium and used a visual context that whole populations, especially young demographics, have been trained to like, and which in turn appeals to that frame of reference.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

How do you mean Skull? I would have thought you could fit words in any language to the rhythm of that song.

Posted .

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

there’s two rhythms going on musically, plus the internal rhythm of each line of the language. It’s a tough call.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

what an exquisitely delicate balance between musical rhythm and language…
why do cross word puzzles when you can listen to that.
Brilliant.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

The mandatory argument doesn’t hold water. All subjects are mandatory in primary school… in secondary school Maths and English and a foreign language (in many schools you had no choice of language, some schools were "French" others "German") are mandatory all the way to the leaving cert.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say they hate maths because it was mandatory. Likewise most people see to get through life with psychological scarring despite having had to read Shakespeare.

The language failed because it wasn’t, and still isn’t taught in a relevant fashion, and was too rolled up in "Gaelic-ness" and nationalism, things that mean SFA to teenagers. If you could talk about Premier League Football and popular music as Gaeilge (and of course you can) then youngsters would find it more relevant.
As has been pointed out, there are a number of countries whose populations at this point are approaching 100% fluency in conversational English (Iceland, Norway and Holland being examples) that have no problem maintaining their native tongue.

A very large part of it is lack desire. In fairness, it is a difficult language to learn, and it’s not helped by the numerous dialects. But at this point the damage is done and is probably too far gone to revert.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

I don’t think you can compare the situation of the Netherlands or the Scandinavian countries and their languages with Irish. Those countries don’t speak english at home, it’s not society’s main means of communication.

Families who speak Irish at home produce young people who are fluent and comfortable with their language, be it as their first or second language.

Posted .

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

>>Those countries don’t speak english at home, it’s not society’s main means of communication.

True - hence my suggesteion of them as a role model for Ireland/Gaelige: a nation which uses its own tongue comfortably and unselfconsciously, while not having the hang-ups about its wider limitations (geographical or historical) that seem to bedevil Gaelige if past discussions here are anything to go by.

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

"I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say they hate maths because it was mandatory."

I hated maths because it was mandatory and I was rubbish at it. I don’t know if I would have liked it, ever, but I learned to associate it with a sense of inevitable doom and failure because I had to be in the class, I had to pass, and it would suck.

Anyway, carry on….

Re: do you think we should promote the irish language more for the sake of the young people in our irish society

Ta ceist beag agam….cen saghas canuint gaeilge a bhfuil a usaid agaibh a chairde? Ta se saghas difriuil o teanga m’ait duchais?