On the interest of the Publican

On the interest of the Publican

;Entering the thread on relations with publicans, we also have some experiences relevant to this discussion. I’m not sure what the situation of ownership of the land and building of the pubs in Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales is these days, particularly in the larger towns and cities. However, it seems to us that three things make a great difference in the relations of pubs—and publicans—to session players.

First, does the publican own his building and land, or does s/he have a heavy monthly mortgage payment? In the former case, s/he has a lot more leeway, or if the landlord, miraculously charges low rents and allows him to miss a month or two during a period of difficulty. Is the landlord of the same culture and mentality? In the U.S., very few of these ideal situations exist. Most don’t live above the pubs or in a wing of the building, rather, nearly all publicans have a hefty mortgage or rent to pay, in addition to trying to keep a roof over his or her own family’s head, and putting adequate food on the table, etc.. Most landlords or mortgage lenders in the U.S. could care less if your particular pub exists or not; the building can always be sold or leased to someone else entirely different. They only care about getting the money and interest from a mortgage or rent.

Second, if the pub is in an urban area, or community, or small town/village, in what type of neighborhood does the pub exist? Ireland, Scotland and Wales are much more homogenous as an ethnic culture than the U.S., even in some degree of their cities. We believe England, now, is somewhere in between the U.S. and the other three. It’s much easier for a pub to always have clientele if the pub and the neighborhood/community are as one and much easier for sessions to have their way if all three—pub (that is owner/landlord and leasor-publican), community and session players are "one." This is a uncommon situation in the U.S., which is mostly urban areas greater than 25,000 people. In fact, over 60% of Americans live in mixed culture towns, of over 100,000 persons in size, established by ethnically diverse people within the last 70-90 years.

Third, how much competition exists in a community or neighborhood for the pub? In homogenous, tightly knit, older neighborhoods and towns (increasingly rare in the U.S.) there are neighborhood and community pubs with little or no competition. Again, though, this is a rare situation, especially for Irish, or otherwise "British" pubs. Although historically and genetically the U.S. population as a whole is still over 30% a quarter or more of Irish or Scottish descent, with another several percent of a quarter or more English or Welsh descent, most of these people actually do not KNOW or acknowledge their actual ancestry. In fact, a lot of Scots-Irish whose ancestors were in Ireland less than a generation, and largely "passed through," call themselves "Irish" because on the old colonial records (often kept by English appointees, or who served English appointees) were recorded simply as "having arrived from Ireland." Unless someone in these families actually dug through old records, such as the civil suit and other records mouldering and unorganized in many county courthouses in this country going back to the colonial era and original colonies, these Americans never see the additional references to the families’ real origins in Scotland, Wales, England, etc. We teach almost nothing of the plantation system in Ireland—and why and how it came about, the long border war between England and Scotland over Northumbria and Cumbria, etc., how many of the original colonial settlers were from "other than the heart of England,", how many descendants exist today, etc. Most Americans have little or no real sense of who they actually are than the nebulous, generic "American"—usually self-deprecatingly called "Heinz 57." This lack of real knowledge has been promoted, sometimes in a very heavy-handed manner, by the U.S. and states’ governments since the U.S. Civil War.

In our personal experience, sessions that are unpopular among patrons not all that interested in traditional music fail and are replaced with enertainments that cater to these other larger, ethnicities who do know more about their own identities and heritage, even when the publican ia a recent Irish immigrant. It seems to us that it’s possible for a greater number of pubs to exist in Scotland, Ireland, Wales, and even England and have "traditional" music sessions without having undue concern about the wishes of the beverage and food buying patrons that are the mainstay of covering the mortgage/rent, and provision for the publican’s own family. It’s rarely possible for that situation to exist in the U.S. Here, if session players want sessions to exist at all, they have to be sensitive to the financial needs of the publican—and usually in neighborhoods in which any and all of the known British cultures or heritage are a small minority, and even the majority of regular beverage and food buying patrons are not of that cultural heritage, or don’t care.

Just 20 years ago, the city in which I live, which now has a million residents, had a self-identified demographic of about 15% mostly Irish descent. On the last survey taken at the same time as the latest census, that number had fallen to 6%. The same situation was noted by sociologists and political parties in the western parts of Virginia, North Carolina, Maryland and Pennsylvania, although these were also noted to be much more "stable" regions where families that have existed and intermarried for 8-11 generations are still there. It’s not entirely a matter of a lot of new people moving into these areas, or the old groups dying off or moving away. It’s mostly a case of modern ignorance and disregard for heritage that has geatly increased in the last generation—largely with government and political promotion of that throughout the country.

So, there are three major issues in this discussion—the nature of pubs in places like Ireland, Scotland and England and the cultures in which they exist, compared with the nature of "traditional" Irish/British pubs in the U.S., the culture in which they must struggle to exist, and how EACH affects the existence/maintenance of sessions. We don’t think there is any "one size fits all" solution/attitude applicable to this situation.

Tony and Celia Becker

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Am I the only one who is confused as to the point of this post ?
Should it have been part of a previous discussion ?

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Ok
Could you please clarify if you are asking a question and what it is .
Or are you inviting comments on what you have written .
Because the latter would require someone with extensive experiance of bars on both sides of the pond.
I am willing to accept a grant to undertake an extensive and in depth study of Bars in the USA should one beome available . I have undertaken research in England ,Scotland ,Ireland even Wales on this vexed issue at my own expence already . I am midway on my research in France at the moment but am willing to put this on hold while I achive academical respectability.

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Bazouki dave, your offer to step into the breach in the interest of data gathering brings tears to my eyes. Good man!

Granted, they are of a different sort than those engendered by the OP’s bloviation, but still…

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The surrounding ethnicity is of rather little importance compared to the political economy of the pub business. In the UK, almost all pubs are owned by large corporations ("pubcos") which lease them out to landlords who are contractually obliged to buy their supplies from the pubco. The pubco manipulates prices to squeeze the last penny they can out of the landlord on alcohol sales. The only areas where the landlord can keep most of the proceeds is non-alcohol business - gambling machines and food, mainly. (This model is relatively recent - it replaced the former system where the breweries were usually the pub owners some time under Thatcher. It’s formally different in Scotland from England & Wales but the effect is much the same and the same pubcos operate both sides of the border). Combined with the dramatic fall in supermarket retail prices for alcohol in the last generation, and the end result is that pubs get squeezed into becoming primarily restaurants, which doesn’t fit with running sessions.

I don’t think I’ve ever been in a pub whose land and building was owned by its landlord. They may exist in some remote rural areas. The local pub in my village ( http://thedeantavern.com/ ) is very unusual in that it operates as a kinda socialist enterprise (there are only a couple of others like that in Scotland) - not only does it host a folk club and an accordion and fiddle club, it sponsors things like the brass band (in return the band plays in the bar on New Years Day - this picture includes me listening to them last year, far left behind the woman on the trombone: http://tinyurl.com/cfawals ).

Ethnicity is not central to what kind of music people play in sessions and not even very relevant to what the punters want to listen to. If Irish sessions in the UK had depended on having players with some familial link to Ireland, the scene would have died out decades ago. And people lose interest in their ethnicity here too. In this village, the major ethnic minority is Lithuanian. A visitor would never guess:

http://www.slainte.org.uk/files/pdf/cilips/locscot/autumn06.pdf

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We don’t think there is any "one size fits all" solution/attitude applicable to this situation either.

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WOW! A Pub with a Trust fund! You must be extremely proud of this heritage!

Tony and Celia Becker

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How many sessions, fleadhanna, tionol, have you 2 been to this side of the pond to be able to tell what pubs are like in these islands?

An honest answer please.

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Enough to conclude the homogeneous ethnic culture of our British Isles, me thinks

Posted .

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Methinks you thinks correctly Mr Leachim. Me also thinks me wasted precious time reading thon badly composed fiction of the initial post (full of poor syntax, bad spelling and split infinitives) which, BTW, was the initial post, not the discussion - the discussion followed thereafter.

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I’m getting confused, flipping between thesession.org and texts for work. I’m not always sure which is which. This is probably a bad thing.

It’s the tranquilizing affect of the mustard colour which lets you know you’re in that happy space.

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One of my professors (a retired Marine) told me that I had great ideas, but I didn’t know how to express them well. He told me to write for an audience that did not know what I knew, and to keep things simple. His advice did not transform my life, but once I started to follow it, I started getting published.
The original post purports to raise three points, but goes off in many more directions than that, some of which have very little bearing on the questions being posed. For example, all this focus on genealogy just confuses me—I saw a resume once with a genealogy section in it; any guesses whether he got the job?

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Yes, I keep telling myself that, Babs.

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Fourth, does the publican provide free peanuts? & does s/he willingly give you the TV remote when the singers become too obnoxious?

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I appreciate your trying to instruct us locals on matters of taste and sophistication through this and other posts, Amer. But I’ve gotten dizzy trying to figure out that previous one, and trying to come up with something thoughtful.

So I’d ask if you could keep your point down to say 30 or 40 words, as opposed to a treatise on some topic or other, as in this latest post.

Better still, whisper it into a toilet bowl, and don’t forget to flush.

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@Rudall the time, although we have visited the continent several times, no one has ever invited us to visit Ireland, Scotland, Wales or England, and so we have never had the pleasure. I suspect our politics may have influenced this omission. Are you offering us an invitation?

We’re considering joining the Black Family on one of their musical cruises soon. Would that count?

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@Rudall the time We love to split our infinitives; it makes them much easier to chew!

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"bloviation" is spot on and I’m only jealous I didn’t say it first.

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Americeltic,

Are you sure you’re on the right web site ?

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I posted on here just now. It appeared and everything … ah well … here it is again …

Radical thought:

IMO, "Who you are" has very little to do with the genetic or geographical origins of your ancestors.

I could bloviate, or caveat
But on the whole I think
I’ll leave it at that

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Sorry to OP - can’t help, your pubs and the local pubs that I come across in Ireland seem worlds apart - literally. Thank goodness!!

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"We love to split our infinitives; it makes them much easier to chew!"

To adoringly split infinitives, even if is in order to more readily masticate, could impress on others that you wish to deliberately confound them.

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I wasn’t going to post, but these discussions are making me cross. I agree with eb that who we are "has very little to do with the genetic or geographical origins of your ancestors" and, taken from Jack Campin’s post above "…people lose interest in their ethnicity here …"

The people I meet group and ally themselves based on things like shared interests, attitudes, current locations, predicaments. Some of that may be cultural or nostalgic and could relate to fairly recent shared histories of economic migration.

Ethnicity rarely comes into it and when it does it is usually deprecated.

Group loyalties are funny things, I once sat next to a guy on a long-haul flight who was a university lecturer from a country where tribal and clan loyalties are still politically very important. One thing he said was that the tribes were genetically very mixed because of intermarriage and migration - those who married-in adopted the language and culture of the new family. Another was that clan loyalties did not stop bar-room brawls between relatives who supported different UK Premier league football teams.

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More on topic - just looking at the decor in youtube clips of pub sessions from around the world is enough to suggest that things are different in different countries.

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There is a germ of a good point in OP, or at least in the paragraph I read.

It’s no accident that the best session pub where I live is privately-owned and operated by an indvidual who is almost always on the premises during opening hours, although he doesn’t live there. He does sleep there sometimes, but that’s not quite the same thing.

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I find that the sort of people who think the genetic or geographic origins of one’s ancestors are a critical, or at least important, aspect of social relations in the present are the sort of people you really don’t want to be hanging out with.

And why would anyone write a long treatise on the culture of pubs in countries they have never been to? Mental.

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"although we have visited the continent several times, no one has ever invited us to visit Ireland, Scotland, Wales or England, and so we have never had the pleasure. I suspect our politics may have influenced this omission. Are you offering us an invitation?"

Are you guys on a Home Office watchlist or something?

Seriously, don’t get so hung up on what Irish ancestry has to do with it. If players in a session a) buy lots of drinks, b) don’t scare off the regulars who buy lots of drinks, and c) encourage casual visitors who buy lots of drinks to come back the next week, then the landlords will encourage the session.

Also, if you’re friendly and don’t demand payment to play in pub, then they’ll have you.

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What if the start putting a board up saying "Traditional Music Here Tonight" ?

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>> We’re considering joining the Black Family on one of their musical cruises soon. Would that count?

Oh yes, I’m sure that will be quite the same experience as visiting Ireland itself. You should definitely jump at that one. 😏

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Ok everyone, I’ve changed my mind, feel free to slag the yanks. This is embarrassing.

Salt

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Tony, I’d go to Ireland with any one from the Black family. Why not?

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er ……………….who are the Black family?
Should I know ?
I would go to Ireland with nearly anyone if they are giving me a free lift 😉

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Maybe Mary Black etc. at a guess

I get the impression the OP has a much better sense of humour than others posting.

I don’t care about few split infinitives. There are much worse crimes. Such as not having a sense of humour

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OMG another grammatical mistake: should read a few split infinitives

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I don’t think it’s free.

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I’ve noticed over the years that some of my fellow Yank brethren feel the need to list copious details regarding their family tree and their Irish branches - regardless of how distant - in order to somehow validate and justify their involvement in this music. Folks - you can go ahead and skip that business - it isn’t relevant, and our Euro and Aussie cousins couldn’t give a poo in bucket about it anyway.

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Joanie Madden used to introduce Cherish the Ladies with a run-down of where each member’s family originated from.
No doubt she still does it. It would be easy to find that irritating, but I just put it down to the way Americans relate to their past. If Joanie gave some long spiel like the opening post here, however, I don’t think I’d attend any of their gigs.

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I’d be happy to go to Ireland with any one of the Black family. The question is whether you want to go to Key West, Ocho Rios, Grand Cayman and Cozumel with them (and a few thousand retired folks who don’t know a thing about Irish music), and then consider that some sort of authentic experience with the music…

I am actually hoping that the OP is using a sense of humor here, but I’m not so sure… 😉

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Ocho Rios sounds great! Reels with a Reggae groove. Marley by way of Morrison. Feeling Irie, mon.

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I suppose much of this is perpetuated by the myth that when you live in Ireland & travel around the country everyone wants to know which county (in Ireland) you’re from. I know the myth exists. I don’t know why.

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First, is the cruise ship owned outright by the Jack, the captain, the publican or is s/he paying a hefty mortgage?

Second, do you have a chance to mingle with locals or just other tourists when you’re on the islands?

Third, is there plenty of rum?

Sorry, too much coffee. I meant to say Shay or Michael (Black). I don’t believe they are related to Jack Black, & I doubt he has been referred to as the Jack.
;)

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I drink (and session) in a pub in South London that has a lot of the Irish disapora patronizing it: Emigrees and 2nd & 3rd generation. It is also owned and managed by the same. I am a Londoner, not Irish at all (3 grandparents from London), I’m not even English, my one ‘odd’ grandparent was from the Highlands (of Scotland)!
But often (esp when I’m playing Trad Irish) I am asked ‘where do you come from’. I get a lot of funny looks when I say ‘Wimbledon’ then’ I’m further cross examined, ‘Oh but where is your family from?’.

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People are odd. I am live two counties away from where I grew up. Someone (presumably born and bred here) asked where was from and was a bit cool when I told him (- though so, bl**dy incomer - ). Then I added that my granny was from the other side of the county but left as a child. Suddenly I was OK 😏

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Interesting Yhaalhouse. I suppose many folks still want to know how a person with no obvious connection to anything Irish would become attracted to playing this music. I mean really - have you ever known anybody in Lithuania who woke up one day and said "today I am going to learn and play traditional Polynesian music?" Or how about the kid in China who decides to learn the pan flute and play Peruvian music from the Andes?

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‘Or how about the kid in China who decides to learn the pan flute and play Peruvian music from the Andes?’

Not exactly, but …

https://thesession.org/discussions/28657

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My point exactly MacCruiskeen. It seems like this music more than any other type of regional traditional music draws in ears from all over the globe. If there are Peruvian or Polynesian equivalents to the Mustard board for example - I’d love to browse them and see if they bicker over the same types of things - LOL

"No one should ever bring sheet music to the pig-roast Luau, brudda."

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It’s very easy to laugh at descendants of various European diasporas (diasporae? diasporums?) in the New World making a big deal about their origins but many of their ancestors came from what were at the time "submerged" nations and looked for an opportunity to freely express their cultural and religious identities in a way that wasn’t always possible in their homelands.

Nevertheless, they often faced a lot of prejudice in the new land and had to band together and fight hard for this identity, and would have been sure to pass on a sense of hard-won pride to their descendants.

It might seem passé and anachronistic now, several generations later, but I don’t think it’s quite as ridiculous as modern-day denizens of the aforesaid homelands like to think.

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Fair point Bren, respect for your ancestors, but that’s a bit different from some romanticised notion of a pan-celtic brotherhood to which we all belong, or rather wish to belong, because it doesn’t actually exist.

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You mean Alan Stivell lied to me? The b’stard!

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Yeah, he did harp on about it a fair bit didn’t he?

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I find the racist obsession with genetic ancestry more than a little off-putting. What’s even sillier is cherry-picking one ancestry over another as one to ‘identify’ with. It’s indulging in personal myth-making and is as fake as a nose job.

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"I am actually hoping that the OP is using a sense of humor here, but I’m not so sure"

;)

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"er ……………….who are the Black family? Should I know?"
and
"Maybe Mary Black etc. at a guess"

Yes, I was referring to the Black Family, of Dublin, whose 1st generation members are Shay, Michael, Mary, Martin and Francis, all of whom are accomplished performers of Irish Traditional Music. Shay is the mentor from whom we learned to keep all four interest groups, instrumentalists, singers, punters and publican, happy and coming back for more every week.

The eldest brother, Shay, leads an open Irish traditional session every Sunday at The Starry Plough Pub in Berkeley, California. http://www.starryploughpub.com/thestarrysession (For the ‘cover’ Shay literally ‘passes the hat’) Shay maintains an excellent mix of about 40 minutes of tunes followed by about 15 minutes of songs. The caliber of performance is generally top notch, and Shay welcomes all instrumentalists, singers, and dancers. If you are ever in Berkeley on a Sunday, we highly reccommend this Starry Session.

Shay recently contributed to another of our articles _On Session Etiquette_ www.facebook.com/home.php#!/note.php?note_id=168605156567358

Every winter, Joanie Madden (whistle and flute) joins brothers Shay (guitar), Michael (tenor banjo), and some or all of the other 1st generation Blacks, this year including sisters Frances and Mary, in hosting a group of several dozen ITM enthusiasts on a cruise ship in the Carribean, known as _Folk ‘N Irish Cruise_ "The Big Session on the High Seas!". This is a seven day cruise across the western Carribbean from Miami aboard the ship Norwegian Pearl. More info. at www.cherishtheladies.com

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A lot of comments and even a few thoughtful questions.

@Bouzouki Dave: Yes, you picked up on that correctly. We meant to ask questions aimed at understanding the relations of sessions to pubs and communities in the UK, IN COMPARISON to what we’ve observed in Northern California and a few other U.S. locales.

To the others (who perhaps missed at the several question marks and words like "compare,") NO, we were NOT saying that the pub-session-community relationships were the same in the UK or Ireland as here in the U.S. nor that we know anything about pub-session-community relationships in the UK or Ireland.

From a couple of responses to our OP, it appears that the UK does not have century or more old immigrant ethnic blocs that insist on staying as such, nor a government, or particularly politicians, that encourage this.

Let us give you an example of some possible comparisons that may illustrate differences between the UK and US that may affect the chances of survival of traditional Irish or otherwise British pubs in the U.S. by using questions:
What percentage of the UK population are first generation immigrants, or first and second generation immigrants, who are non-Europeans and where the second generation is only slightly better able to communicate in English than the first? In how many languages are you all in the UK required to conduct driving tests? In how many languages are your ballots written for national down to local offices? Are any, or a large number of county to national governing districts formed or redrawn every 10 years or less for immigrant/minority blocs to have their own representatives in the local to national governing bodies? When you buy a consumer product, in how many languages is the information about the product, on the label or in an instruction manual? Do you have new immigrant neighborhoods, with special housing designs and new immigrant shopping centers just for them? Are the immigrants to the UK given entirely separate, but general taxpayer paid, primary school and secondary school education in their own languages with just a little English under a 12-year program called "classes for English as a Second Language immigrant students," or something else in "double-speak?" Do you use taxpayer money to partly support festivals and national holiday celebrations or build special community-culture centers for immigrant blocs? Do you excuse their children from school so they can go off and celebrate or attend their allegedly formerly national holidays and festivals? Now going the other way, do many Hindu Indians or Pakistanis who live in Britain visit traditional Irish or otherwise British pubs? Do many of them go up to Scotland to celebrate Hogmany, or Cheshire for the cheddar rolling contest/race?

A couple of posters implied that there are certain amounts of immigrants, every few years or every generation. They then go on to say that these immigrants usually are assimilated rather quickly. We infer from these postings that there is a large degree of unified national culture in the UK. Is that so?

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On thesession.org, Irish Americans are not permitted to admit they are anything but American, as if they worshiped The Great Spirit and built wigwams.

Once you get past that, you’ll be just fine.

In real life, Americans know we all come from someplace else, unless your name is Dances With Wolves.

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@SWFL Fiddler Thanks for the support - I’ve sent you a facebook friend request.

@Jon Kiparsky - So you know Shay Black too?

Tony Becker

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That list of questions is insulting in itself. The list seems to presume that you have found something out about the UK already. But I don’t think you have. I won’t respond to most of them. But I would be most interested to learn exactly where and when this "cheddar rolling contest/race" in Cheshire is. I have to say, I’ve never heard of it.

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Yes, Prof, but that is cheese rolling in Gloucestershire.

The absence of hills in Cheshire would be a problem (aye, there are a few) I imagine, let alone the thought of a Somerset cheese being used, bearing in mind that the local variety is perhaps the oldest.

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It was already a mystery to me why they would roll cheddar in Cheshire, as they have perfectly fine round cheeses there them selves but do we really need to worry about details like that, given the OP ofcourse.

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"In how many languages are you all in the UK required to conduct driving tests?"

Well, I’m not sure exactly what you mean by this - not all UK residents conduct driving tests - but those that do, offer the written test in: English, Bengali, Cantonese, Urdu, Albanian, Hindi, Pushto, Arabic, Kashmiri, Spanish, Kurdish, Tamil, Mirpuri, Turkish, Dari, Polish, Farsi, Portuguese, Gujarati, Punjabi and Welsh.

Compared to California’s Class C options:

English, Amharic, Arabic, Armenian, Cambodian, Chinese, Croatian, French, German, Greek, Hebrew, Hindi, Hmong, Hungarian, Indonesian, Italian, Japanese, Korean, Laotian, Persian/Farsi, Polish, Portuguese, Punjabi, Romanian, Russian, Samoan, Spanish, Tagalog/Filipino, Thai, Tongan, Turkish, and Vietnamese.

OK, a few more there, but how does this affect Irish music sessions?

I find it rather amusing that a Californian resident has an issue with there being a language other than English used in the state, but does this have any bearing on, say, Sean-nós singing? How about Lallans, Ullans or Gàidhlig? You cvould campaign to get them added, along with Irish,and Welsh, to the list of languages for your driving test.
You could then be licensed to sing Bímis ag ól in your local boozer.

Tony & Celia:…

Instead of asking loads of stupid naive questions (which will never inform you properly) get off your rich arses and visit Yurp and see for yourself.
By the way, am I talikng to one or two people- all very schizo…

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Given the religion of most Pakistanis, I’m not entirely surprised that Hindus and Muslims don’t regularly visit British pubs…

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"but do we really need to worry about details like that, given the OP ofcourse."

Oh yes - there are the famous British cheese wars that Americans are not taught about - along with the "the long border war between England and Scotland over Northumbria and Cumbria", these events helped shape life as we know it today - and they affect Irish music sessions.

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Does anyone else see the irony of someone who rabbits on endlessly about their immigrant ancestors, and then several posts later, launches into an epic rant complaining about immigrants?

Hilarious.

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"Do you excuse their children from school so they can go off and celebrate or attend their allegedly formerly national holidays and festivals?"

I suppose for this, you mean anything "non-Christian." There are obviously acceptable holidays and unacceptable holidays. Does that include Jews who want Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah off?

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Talking of religion - "but yet ceased not the devil to blow his wind, by his wicked instruments" - John Knox.

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I’m not sure about irony. I was adding the strong interest in geneology and ethnicity to the rant about immigrants and getting something unpleasant.

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Yes, I was getting that too, David, but there is *always* irony every time Americans froth at the mouth over immigration.

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"Does anyone else see the irony of someone who rabbits on endlessly about their immigrant ancestors, and then several posts later, launches into an epic rant complaining about immigrants?"

There may well be a wee totie bit of hypocrisy there indeed.
They might have started out by rabbiting on, but once they got to the Cheddar chapter, the rabbit turned to rarebit.

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"Does anyone else see the irony of someone who rabbits on endlessly about their immigrant ancestors, and then several posts later, launches into an epic rant complaining about immigrants?"

To be fair I don’t see an epic rant. Just some questions, but I suppose it’s politically incorrect these days to say anything vaguely relating to the fact that ours is a country with a multiplicity of origins, ancient and new.

from a second generation descendant of irish immigrants who were themselves, at least in part, third generation descendants of scottish immigrants

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If there were no racists we would not need politcal correctness and it would be easier to have sensible discussions about practical things like economic migration, working languages, cultural diversity etc.

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All humans everywhere are africans

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"Just some questions"

Some questions leaning towards the rhetorical…..

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and long-winded at that.

what’s the point?
Be concise, man. or woman.

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Thanks for the link, Prof. However, as you can imagine, living where I do, I know all about cheese-rolling in Gloucestershire. Not Cheshire. And not Cheddar cheese. Also not Cheshire cheese.

I’m still interested in any details about this famous Cheddar cheese race in Cheshire. Must be great for all those immigrants to want to go there in their droves.

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"this famous Cheddar cheese race in Cheshire"

The topic has shifted to ‘race’ again……

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I think the cheese thing is the most significant and important part of this whole thread.

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Wait, I’m an immigrant to this country and I have never been to the cheese-rolling contest. I have also been known to have a Turkey on Thanksgiving, at least twice since I moved here. Does that make me insensitive to the culture in which I now live?

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I believe the east of the country also has some major cheese events, dotted along a famous route known as the "Norfolk and Whey".

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They beat their rivals, Stilton…

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Admittedly it isn’t cheddar cheese though.

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5 years? Wow! What a proud tradition.

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"They beat their rivals, Stilton." Yeah, hard cheese to them. I expect they got the blues about that, all right.

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"I think the cheese thing is the most significant and important part of this whole thread."

Possibly…..there does seem to be a strong emphasis towards those "Scots-Irish" immigrants - who were of course mainly Presbyterian with their own policies on cheese. Even the founder of the breakaway Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster, Ian Paisley has continued this policy. He has been known to proclaim "there’ll be no stinking bishop in this church"!

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Stinking bishop being another great Gloucestershire cheese, of course. We’re blessed with cheeses round here. Hence the local exhortation not to take cheeses’ names in vain.

Of course, sectarianism is rife. Why, only the other day I had a whole sector, and I can tell you I was pretty rife after that!

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A cheshire is just too crumbly to roll down a hill, it would just fall to bits

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Nothing like a good rife Stilton.

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"A cheshire is just too crumbly to roll down a hill, it would just fall to bits"

Does a double Gloucester take twice as long?

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I am trying to think if I have every visited a "traditional Irish pub" in Britain. I have been to plenty that were referred to locally as "Irish pubs" but they were just pubs that a lot of Irish people went to. Did there used to be a chain that had Irish theme pubs ? Maybe there still is. But that wouldn’t then be traditional.

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Oh, sorry are we still on cheeses. I don’t know llig. That Chester race had a Lancashire team. If they brought their own cheese I think they would have had the crumbliness handicap.

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If you lay the can on its side, it rolls easier.

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The Lancashire team are quite tasty, though.

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there’s an Irish theme bar right across the road from where we play. It’s a perfect magnet for all those dumb punters looking for Irish stuff.

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Apparently the junior Lancashire team are all yummy and creamy. 😛

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“In real life, Americans know we all come from someplace else, unless your name is Dances With Wolves.”

That’s exactly the kind of thinking I have a hard time getting my head around. It seems self-evident that everyone is from wherever they were born and/or raised. You’re a product of your environment: language, your schooling, the TV programs you watched as a child. You, personally, didn’t come from “somewhere else”.

And for the record, Munster cheese isn’t really from Clare, Cork, Kerry, Limerick, Tipperary or Waterford. It’s American, but named for the city of Münster in Germany, and not to be confused with the Munster-géromé of France.

So confusing, I Camembert it.

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Fidkid - what you say is perfectly reasonable, but I’m sure you would agree there is no American ethnicity and American culture itself is rather diverse. A kid growing up in South Boston has a culture much different than the kid growing up in Cuban influenced Miami, or the Scandinavian influenced Minnesota, or Mexican influenced Los Angeles. I agree that your environment heavily influences your perception of culture - therefore, why do you struggle with the notion that somebody might refer to themselves as Italian even though they grew up in New Jersey? (Apologies in advance to Snooki)

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Do you think that diversity doesn’t exist everywhere else or do you think a person from Clare has the same background as someone from Dublin? That there is no difference between someone from Rotterdam and the person from Amsterdam, that Hamburg and Munich are both inhabited by generic Germans?

You guys should really get out a bit more.

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I never suggested that Professsor. In fact I agree with you. I’ve been lucky enough to travel from Belgrade to Brisbane over the years. I’m speaking directly to those who see Yankee Land as one giant epsiode of Bay Watch in which there can never be a reference to any ethnic culture as having an influence on your current lifestyle.

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@greg sheils & Jusa Nutter Eejit - Thanks for the support.

We feel 100% American, and love to make our music with our friends in public places, but we worry about our neighbors (punters) willingness to support this by buying beer in our hosts pub.

Have you ever sat down with your publican to discuss this?

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No, you suggested there’s no such thing American ethnicity. I think you’ll agree the people in my examples would all be distinctly Irish Dutch and German respectively, despite their differences they also have an awful lot in common. In the same vein, you wouldn’t mistake an Irish American for an Irishman/woman no matter how strongly they identify with their ‘ethnicity’.

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Professor - agreed - you’d never make the mistake of confusing Irish Americans with native born Irish. I always cringe when I hear my Yank brethren claim "Oh I’m Irish too!" every time they meet a person from Ireland. I feel bad for every Irish tourist who has to sit through 5 minutes of genealogy by nearly every American they meet who’s last name starts with an O’ or a Mc. Chalk it up to some Americans inexplicable deep yearning to connect with the Auld Country.

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You’re right. It *is* inexplicable. I don’t understand why such people aren’t happy enough to be Americans. My Sikh friends in Cardiff are happy enough to be Welsh. My Muslim friends in Birmingham are happy enough to be British. (Mind you, there’s a funny thing - you’ll notice - not ‘English’.)

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Is there anyone who is proud to be English?!
I encounter the stereotypical English when I travel out of London and into England (i.e. the other side of the M25) and I am met by the sea of bristling white men with shaved heads in track suits (or football tshirts) and the poppy wearers.

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"It *is* inexplicable. I don’t understand why such people aren’t happy enough to be Americans."
In my opinion, you are missing the point. It is about heritage. I am American, but I also know my heritage and am proud of my immigrant ancestors. Of course, when I say I am Norwegian, I know, as do others, that it is my heritage, not that I live in Norway. I also know that the "Norwegian" foods I grew up with are really immigrant dishes, not always found or eaten in Norway.
I find it inexplicable that folks don’t understand that. and even more so, seem bothered by it.
jeez.

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Ethical - LOL, I’m sure it won’t surprise you that those same people are also very happy if not downright boastful to be American. I’m talking about a separate subconscious need to identify with a romanticized notion of "tribe." I also notice that in your examples, you’re speaking about people of faiths who now embrace a new national identity. I too know Muslims and Catholics and Sikhs and Hindu’s who a very happy to be American. Perhaps if you had said Balochi or Punjabi or Urdu, your example would have been more in-line to what I am referring to.

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OK. I understand the difference of opinion between us. I accept it. Nevertheless, it remains a difference of opinion. I haven’t come round to that way of thinking. I could explain how it’s different, but, even though it’s not, I think you’d take it as being anti-American. Which I’m decidedly not.

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Mine was in response to wyogal.

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Well, my Sikh and Muslim friends aren’t "embrac[ing] a new national identity". Most of them were born here. They’re British.

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"Perhaps if you had said Balochi or Punjabi or Urdu,"

Well, the first two could be taken to mean ethnicity or language, the last is most definitely a language - "Hindu" has not so definite interpretations too - it’s not just a faith - but do carry on.

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Ethical you’re a fair minded sort - give it a try. This topic rears it’s head periodically around here and I personally would enjoy hearing your perspective.

I just simply ask you to accept the notion that in American culture it is common for some to wear their ethnic heritage on our sleeves. I suspect it goes back to the birth pangs of this young country as competing groups of immigrants battled each other for socio-economic footholds. Perhaps if you thought about it in terms of Normans and Saxons both being Britons but still clinging to old mindsets?

Weejie - pardon my ignorance. I was hoping to convey cultural ethnicity.

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We are all just human beings. Citizens of the world and all that!
Patriotism and nationalism (including the nutty belief in any national character) is just wrong! National indentity is just an administrative category to make it easier to run services locally. It’s mad to feel anymore than that .
I may not like Britain’s or the USA’s or Iran’s govermental policies but it doesn’t mean to say I dislike all the people who happen to be living there!

All Hail Mustardia

This is cathartic. Zina would be happy. ;)

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"I suspect it goes back to the birth pangs of this young country as competing groups of immigrants battled each other"

I assume you are referring to the first humans arriving on that continent and wiping out all the large carnivores and other large creatures like the giant ground sloth.

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Fortunately, all the Giant Ground Sloth had been slain by the time the Industrial revolution began. I’m just talking about Irish, Italian, Polish etc immigrants fighting for jobs at the dock in 1880.

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Mine mostly came over to the northern plains, and carved a life out of the dirt. literally.

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Let me throw one more log on the fire for your contemplation. The children of immigrants sometimes can’t escape their ethnic heritage because others remind them of it at every turn. Ethical Blend, you’re clearly an educated and accepting person. You have Muslim friends you see as fellow Britons. However, my guess is if your friends walk down certain working class neighborhoods in London, they will be reminded in the harshest of terms that they are of a different tribe. So it went for most groups in America. If you’re told often enough that you’re of a certain group, it can become ingrained in your psyche and eventually a psychological sheild.

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The only geographical location that matters in terms of how I see my identity is the one I grew up in — Colorado. Couldn’t care less where my ancestors came from, but I feel as if I am connecting with my roots when I go skiing and rock climbing.

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>>>The children of immigrants sometimes can’t escape their ethnic heritage because others remind them of it at every turn<<<
That’s very true. People used to mock my father ( 3rd generation Australian) for his "Irish temper". Which of course made him lose his temper.

And I unwittingly walked into a sectarian minefield when I started working offshore in Scotland, despite never professing any religion to anyone. It was based solely on my name. This ran the whole gamut from petty jibes to blatant job discrimination and (on shore) anonymous death threats from people who’d apparently just looked for an Irish-looking name in the phonebook.

It’s all very well to trot out platitudes about sameness and brother/sisterhood but you can find yourself in a cultural pigeonhole through none of your own doing, and you might then occasionally draw some sustenance from commonality with others in the same boat.

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Yep Bren, I’m disgusted reading you relating that but not surprised. Protestant/catholic sectarianism is the scourge and the shame of Scotland. It needs to be sorted out, ie eradicated, before we start dreaming about any of this pan-Celtic fraternity romanticised crap.

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"My Muslim friends in Birmingham are happy enough to be British. (Mind you, there’s a funny thing - you’ll notice - not ‘English’.)"
‘Is there anyone who is proud to be English?!"

Can’t say I’ve noticed that - people I’ve talked to who are descended from folks from the Indian subcontinent seem to be fine about being English, if they grew up in England. So do people of Caribbean descent.

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Yeah, my Sikh and Muslim friends don’t seem to give a toss how a small percentage of people treat them. But then, admittedly, in my experience both cities I mentioned - Birmingham and Cardiff - are very tolerant, inclusive sorts of places. As is most of the country, to be honest, including almost all of London

And, since you flatter me, JNE, I will try. Here it is - I hope this doesn’t offend, because it’s not meant unkindly, but I have noticed … shall we say? … *sensitivities* about this from some, but by no means all, Americans. So, having been persuade to try, I’d just ask that you give me the benefit of the doubt.

I think the problem is partly language. The words that are used. But then these same words develop a life of their own and become what we in ‘the old world’ fear that they might mean in the first place. "Heritage". That is the killer word. At least for us (I think). It implies to me the notion of some kind of birthright. But there are no birthrights attaching to Americans just because they happen to have European ancestors. The instinctive reaction, on hearing that word, is to shy away, in slight shock - cognitive dissonance, I think it’s called - for two reasons. I - we, I believe - find it hard to see why people can’t make their own birthright and heritage, forged from everything they are, most of which, let’s face it, is about where they themselves were born. Secondly, it’s the thing that was mentioned up above - was it you, JNE? Or was it TSS? "Oh, you’re Irish? (Or Welsh, or whatever.) I’m Irish too." Even worse - the worst of the lot, said in broad Texan drawl - "Yes, I’m Scottish. Have you seen my clan tartan?" (Now, don’t misunderstand me - some branches of the clans have genuinely been perpetuated upon crossing the ocean - I’m talking here about those individuals who suddenly ‘discover’ an identity they never knew they had - which, of course, is because they never did have that identity.)

And, overall, I still don’t get why being American isn’t enough. Being British is enough, for almost all of my fellow countrymen. We are, mostly, fiercely proud of being British. It doesn’t matter where our ancestors are from or what family or religious rituals we may observe that are different from our neighbours. We’re still British. Tell you what, being invited to play baja for the local sikh temple for their services is a truly British experience.

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Several other posts since I started typing that. Bren, the situation in Scotland is shocking. I freely admit that I don’t understand it at all. I’m a catholic - I don’t make any secret of it - and it can get me into trouble too. It’s shameful.

[BIG caveat - I’m not saying one side or the other is worse - I’m just shocked that there are ‘sides’ at all.]

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Ethical, could it be because many American towns and cities look the same as one another? So as there’s no *visible* sense of history, people recreate their own, which might mean rediscovering their "Celtic" roots. From my observations cars are king, people drive everywhere, including down to the shops, or malls.
Mind you we’re only a few steps behind over here, and suburban Catford looks as much like The Isle of Dogs, Barking, Hounslow, Ealing or Finchley, or whatever other species of suburb in London. Although town centres still abound, many of the High Street shop names are ubiquitous. Only public buildings such as old victorian libraries etc mark out a tangible history but these are closing as fast as pubs.

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Ethical Blend - that was well articulated and I appreciate your reply. Cheers

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A good many visiting professional musicians from Ireland like to refer to their ticket-buying American public as being of the forty-million-or so Irish. They manage to say this with straight faces too.

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Sectarianism may well start in the home, but if you have a state education system that supports it there is zero chance of eradication.

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If you have statutes that support it, the chances become less likely - some measures, after 400 years, might be a step in the right direction, but the discrimination still exists:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15492607

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Aye, but note that the monarch may well now be able to marry a catholic, but they can’t themselves be a catholic AND head of the Church of England

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For example, it is impossible to be be a political leader in the UK and promote antidisestablishmentarianism

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"but they can’t themselves be a catholic AND head of the Church of England"

In other words - the role of head of the C of E is retained, so a Catholic cannot be a monarch. The Bill of Rights gave a more explicit reason for the ban:

[And whereas it hath beene found by Experience that it is inconsistent with the Safety and Welfaire of this Protestant Kingdome to be governed by a Popish Prince or by any King or Queene marrying a Papist the said Lords Spirituall and Temporall and Commons doe further pray that it may be enacted That all and every person and persons that is are or shall be reconciled to or shall hold Communion with the See or Church of Rome or shall professe the Popish Religion or shall marry a Papist shall be excluded and be for ever uncapeable to inherit possesse or enjoy the Crowne and Government of this Realme and Ireland and the Dominions thereunto…….]

Blah blah….

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"For example, it is impossible to be be a political leader in the UK and promote antidisestablishmentarianism"

It would seem that it isn’t easy to for a political leader to promote disestablishmentarianism.

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I’ll admit that the word is so full of double negatives that it confuses the feck out of me.

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I like ethical bend’s post.

For many (not all) Americans, "heritage" is something we discover a yearning for in mid-life, after a few decades of moving frequently and ending up feeling disconnected—from family, from a sense of belonging somewhere (anywhere), and from community. For many, being uprooted *is* our heritage (it’s how our forebears came here in the first place). But humans are wired to be suspicious of nomads. So as castaways we invent a tribal or clan identity out of wherever one of our great-grandparents came from.

Silly or delusional or presumptuous, such posing strikes me as fairly harmless, and it likely confers some benefits. In my experience, many people outside of America can be aloof or even antagonistic toward us imperialistic, bombastic Yanks, yet turn friendly when they find one of us has ancestry in their country. And then they find out, as individuals, most of us aren’t imperialistic or bombastic.

It’s a common story for Yanks that you’re just another feckin’ tourist in Ireland until you reveal that your great-great-grandfather was born in County Kerfuffle on the outskirts of Ballyrhallaighmankishferriter. Suddenly poteen is offered. Ireland doesn’t exactly dissuade us from researching such claims: an American with a grandparent from the "blessed auld country" is eligible for an Irish (i.e., EU) passport, which is vastly better than traveling on a tourist visa.

Why isn’t being an American enough? It is for me. My ancestors worked hard, often against prejudice, to assimilate into American culture, eager to shed their accents, manner of dress, and religion. For many, the immigrant experience here also included a sense of bettering oneself and their new country. They went from being poor and oppressed to "self-made" business owners and builders of the American Dream. Within just a generation or two, however, the world quit admiring American pride and accomplishment. Now we’re seen as boastful or gloating (yes, I get that some Americans are in fact too big for their caps). So I can also understand why some Americans try to use their hyphenated heritage to deflect ill will when they travel.

I play Irish traditional music because I love the tunes, not because of any pretense of Irishness. The music has led me to learn about Irish history and culture, including Irish immigration to America. I like to think I would’ve gone down this path regardless of where my ancestors called home. Judging from the wide range of humanity I’ve met playing this music, lots of people—regardless of their DNA’s geo-political pedigree—feel similarly.

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"So I can also understand why some Americans try to use their hyphenated heritage to deflect ill will when they travel."

So long as they support cheese rolling, they are OK in my book.

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"I’ll admit that the word is so full of double negatives that it confuses the feck out of me."

I bet it takes even longer for the word to roll down a hill than a round of double Gloucester.

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I can’t believe that this thread has gone on for so long without anyone warning of the consequences of someone cutting the cheese…

I found it!

All three or four of it;
"First, does the publican own his building and land, or does s/he have a heavy monthly mortgage payment?"
"Is the landlord of the same culture and mentality?"
"Second, if the pub is in an urban area, or community, or small town/village, in what type of neighborhood does the pub exist?"
"Third, how much competition exists in a community or neighborhood for the pub?"

Me too Al.

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Rudall: You mnetion Finchley. Have you ever visited the wig museum there owned by B B King?

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Finchley , Texas tho, innit?

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"I can’t believe that this thread has gone on for so long without anyone warning of the consequences of someone cutting the cheese…"

Well, I knew there was a Communist plot to undertake that very malicious act. It is believed that Red Leicester was behind it.

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I think one problems is when people treat membership of a group that they are in by choice or ‘birth’ as an important part of their identity. By doing that they are potentailly associating themselves with all the values of that group. They are *requesting* pre-jugement which, if negative, would be regarded as prejudice. When I was a student it was noticeable that some students from overseas introduced themselves as from Cape Town (for example) rather than South Africa.

But people sometimes want use the label for only some of its associations, or as a bit of background. Can I assume that if *on this site* someone describes themselves as Irish-American then they come from a family or wider social group that plays irish traditional music in a style similar to that in Ireland ?

Barbed Wire Museum, McLean, TX

Then there is the barbed wire museum in McLean Tx…

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David50 - I think what you’re saying is a spot on assessment for many who choose to hyphenate their identity. God knows I’ve met my fair share of people who say they’re Irish-American as if it is a chip on their shoulder and they’re daring you to knock it off.

I like Will Harmon’s post, and I think his anecdote tells the story for many immigrants to America. I think you can also make the argument that from 1850 to 1950 much of America was built on the friction between competing ethnic groups struggling for economic security. In many East coast large cities, it would not be uncommon for 3 or 4 generations of people to be born in one tight-knit ethnic neighborhood. The notion of "our tribe must survive" runs deep in those areas and isn’t easily washed out in subsequent generations.

OK - I think I’ve ridden this dead horse long enough. Thanks for an entertaining exchange folks.

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David50 et al;

You’re right that the worst was between 1850 and 1950. At least we don’t have lynchings, fire-bombings of entire neighborhoods and signs saying such things as "No Irish Need Apply" as we once had. However, economic separation still continues, partly voluntarily.

In California, the 40 million person population is now roughly 1/3 "European ancestry," 1/3 Latin-American ancestry (mostly Mexican who associate themselves more with the Aztecs rather than much Spanish heritage), and 1/3 "Asian." Besides that, 50% of said 40 million are first generation in this country and state. However, the Latin-American population is mixed, first generation to original Californio descendants whose ancestors were already here when Mexico lost the 1846-48 war with the U.S.

With the exception of the Californio and some pre-World War II Latin American emigrants, all of these groups live in distinctive ethnic neighborhoods separate from one another and very little mixing and cross-over, even for cultural events and normal daily business transactions. In fact we have large state-wide, even national, ethnic gangs who fight with one another and gang task forces on every nearly police force in cities of greater than 100,000 persons in many states.

Also, even in national chains of businesses, when a franchise has a manager from one of these groups, they hire almost completely "their own." If you want to order fast food in many franchises in this state and want the order to come out right, you either order it in Spanish or at least a mixture of English and Spanish. Many local (Silicon Valley) tech businesses are wholly Chinese, or Indian—even those with U.S. or state backed funding. This suits the politicians and an increasing number of them are ethnic politicians promising to give priority to their ethnic communities in everything from local to national government. This same situation largely exists all over the southern and southwestern states, which, together, with California comprise at least one-third of the geographic area of the U.S., have ~50% of the population of the country.
In the more than 8 million person greater San Francisco Bay area, (including the Monterey area of which Santa Cruz is a part), our AmeriCeltic newsletter reports only a handful of sessions.

We observe very little cross over audience generally in most businesses and cultural events, and we worry that soon there won’t be any Irish or British pubs left. Sure there will probably be one or two left in San Francisco, as long as the Irish neighborhoods there continue, but that’s from 50 to 80 miles way from millions of the greater Bay area residents.

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We definitely do not live in the same state, Mr. Becker. At least not by your analysis.

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Crikey ! Have you considered emigrating ?

😏

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AmeriCeltic, I live in LA. Your description does NOT apply here. I’m not sure where you’re getting your misinformation about our state, but misinformation it most definitely is.

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"With the exception of the Californio and some pre-World War II Latin American emigrants, all of these groups live in distinctive ethnic neighborhoods separate from one another and very little mixing and cross-over"

And you say you’re from the Bay Area? You are absolutely talking out of your arse, and you know it.

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I’ve seen some bilge in my time, but AmeriCeltic’s racist spews really do take the biscuit.

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Where are you Jeremy, when a good deleting is in order?

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This is like Jig, only with swastikas.

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Folks have already pointed out that AmeriCeltic’s staggeringly racist latest post is … ahem … wrong. In amongst the rest, it’s perhaps going over the top to point out that even the breakdown of races cited is wildly inaccurate. And that’s going by offical census figures. And the census was only last year.

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What I find odd is that rant is simply racist. They are not even saying anything bad about the ethnic groups. Being different is enough.

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Which of his rants *haven’t* been exceedingly racist? Most of it would not be out of place in 1930s Germany.

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WTF? I leave the room for a couple of minutes and AmerCeltic cut the cheese and cleared out the whole room? (that was for you Al 😉

Damn. I was really enjoying this conversation too.

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"although we have visited the continent several times, no one has ever invited us to visit Ireland, Scotland, Wales or England, and so we have never had the pleasure. I suspect our politics may have influenced this omission. Are you offering us an invitation?"



Well, at least that has been cleared up. Your suspicions may have some ground.

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I’ll let you guess the answer (which I didn’t waste time posting)…

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"The fewer the facts, the stronger the opinion." A. H. Glasgow

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@Babs Gordon, ethical blend & Just a person
"In California, the 40 million person population is now roughly 1/3 "European ancestry," 1/3 Latin-American ancestry (mostly Mexican who associate themselves more with the Aztecs rather than much Spanish heritage), and 1/3 "Asian."

I checked on the US Census website, downloaded the 2010 Census data, crunched the numbers (trickier than it used to be as responders can now self-select more than one ethnicity), and got:

California Total Population: 37253956 persons
Hispanic or Latino but not White alone: 31.1%
Not Hispanic or Latino and White alone: 31.6%
Everything else, including Asian, Amerind, African, Pac : 37.3%

@Will Harmon "The fewer the facts, the stronger the opinion."
Source: U.S. Census Bureau, 2010 Census.
http://factfinder2.census.gov/faces/nav/jsf/pages/index.xhtml
Select "Geographies", then filter "California"

@Weejie (commenting on our politics) "Well, at least that has been cleared up. Your suspicions may have some ground."
We are not aware of being on any "Watch list", as far as we know, but you would have to ask the FBI about that.

As for the epithets posted above, we are still laughing.

In the past week, there were 42 discussion topics posted on this forum with 1019 total responses. We have posted 3 of these with 396 responses, or 38.9%. I think we will give this a rest, but please feel free to carry on without us if you are having fun!

Tony and Celia Becker

Re: On the interest of the Publican

I think the census is off - it should be 33 1/3 % New Spaniards 33 1/3 % French-speaking traders/trappers/seapeople and 33 1/3 % Indigenous Peoples (and some barely perceptible number of muscly Austrian-born politicians). That stupid gold rush ruined everything.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Your arithmetic appears to be as political and biased as the rest of your conjoined persona.

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Re: On the interest of the Publican

"As for the epithets posted above, we are still laughing."

How so? Maybe you could explain the joke. I don’t find that kind of crap to be even a little bit funny.

Was it this bit?

"Agnes, did you see who moved in next door?"
"Yes, it’s a couple of Mexicans. Probably here to take over the country from decent white people"
"Yes, they’ve got the fast food jobs and the janitorial work all sewed up, those bastards. And just you try to get a job picking crops!"
"And don’t you know, they work their way up to supervisory positions, and then they only hire their own, they’re crafty that way"
"Oh, what’s this place coming to, pretty soon you’ll have to speak Spanish just to order a burrito"
"Yes, them and their smelly cooking"
"And they breed like rabbits!"

Okay, maybe it’s a little bit funny, but I think the humor was an inadvertant steal from Python, which doesn’t count. Mostly, it was just disgusting.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

I think the chance of americeltic saying something and being taken in anyway seriously has now shrunk to zero.
It wasnt high to start off with .
It’s about the music and the craic and getting on with people . ….. and having a life 😉 and knowing when to move on .

Re: On the interest of the Publican

"We are not aware of being on any "Watch list", as far as we know, but you would have to ask the FBI about that."

I don’t recall making any suggestion that you were the subject of any vigilance from a US internal bureau. It was the lack of invites from Ireland and the UK that you seemed to be concerned with.

But then again, you seem to be full of misinformation and half truths. You might well find the Census site "tricky", but you seem to find any statistical information difficult, because you have misread so much of it.
Let’s just compare your original analysis with your latest and then the actual stated figures from the census:

Original statement:
"In California, the 40 million person population is now roughly 1/3 "European ancestry," 1/3 Latin-American ancestry (mostly Mexican who associate themselves more with the Aztecs rather than much Spanish heritage), and 1/3 "Asian"."

Later analysis:

"California Total Population: 37253956 persons
Hispanic or Latino but not White alone: 31.1%
Not Hispanic or Latino and White alone: 31.6%
Everything else, including Asian, Amerind, African, Pac : 37.3%"

So now "Asian" has become "everything else including Asian".
That’s quite different from the original category, don’t you think?

Anyway, some of the figures on the census website are as follows:

Hispanic or Latino (of any race): 37.6%

Not Hispanic or Latino: 62.4% broken down to:-

White alone: 40.1%
Black or African American alone: 5.8%
American Indian and Alaska Native alone: 0.4%
Asian alone: 12.8%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander alone: 0.3%
Some Other Race alone: 0.2%
Two or More Races: 2.6%

Clearly, you have misread the figures and your original claim that 1/3 of the population are "Asian" was so wildly out that your competence in analysing figures is highly questionable.
When it is considered that one of you claims to be a professional historian, it becomes a bit of a farce - especially when you see how many blunders you have made in other posts.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Megafauna presumably zero. Just so as not to forget trail of logic that llig started but (tactfully maybe) let drop.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

forget the trail

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Well done, Weejie. I’d been thinking of doing the same thing (with the numbers) but couldn’t be a*sed. You’ve done a service in forewarning the ignorant stumbling on this thread. AmeriCeltic, sadly, is not quite up to that level, so you’re unlikely to get through there.

Posted by .

Re: On the interest of the Publican

>>>Bren, the situation in Scotland is shocking<<<
I hasten to clarify that the incidents recalled were in the 1980s, when the atmosphere was very different to now. There were no diversity counsellors rushing into the media to quell backlashes after terrorist incidents. When I reported the death threats, the police just chuckled and advised me to take my name out of the phonebook, which I refused to do. (as a foreigner who hadn’t grown up locally, how else would people find me in those days?)
When I commented on the discrimination at work, the attitude was "Well, what do you expect with a name like that?"

Jeeez, I mean I can’t help it if my folks named me Feckoff U.Fecking Hunbustards can I?

Posted by .

Re: On the interest of the Publican

I recall an incident in Kilmarnock in the 90s when we were verbally attacked for playing "Fenian music" in a local establishment. It makes a mockery of this guff concerning the ethnic make-up of California and its influence on Irish sessions.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

I was physically threatened, for similar reasons, in Aughris, west of Sligo, in the late 70s. Fortunately Peter, the landlord, bless him, was an ex-boxer and no slouch at that. The guy ‘left’ and his pals slunk away not long after.

Posted by .

Re: On the interest of the Publican

I recall a vodka-fuelled night in a former Soviet Republic about 12 years ago when a bunch of Scottish and NI engineers started singing The Sash and The Soldiers Song, but it was the opposite "sides" singing them.

Then one started on me, with the "I suppose you’re one of these Aussies who think he’s Irish though he’s never been there blah blah blah.." , even though I’d barely opened my mouth by that point, pretty much like some of the ignorant yank-bashing you hear.

I got up on my stool to sing, as was being required at that point, and gave them "Everybody’s Beautiful, In Their own Way …." then they all shouted "feck off you old hippy kant"

Posted by .

Re: On the interest of the Publican

"When it is considered that one of you claims to be a professional historian, it becomes a bit of a farce"

Must be a historian. Who else could take fifty words to say "Pub sessions get axed if the punters don’t enjoy them"?

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Now see, that sounds like a good bit of banter to me, Bren. 🙂

Posted by .

Re: On the interest of the Publican

"Must be a historian. Who else could take fifty words to say "Pub sessions get axed if the punters don’t enjoy them"?"

Maybe - though that might be a sociologist. A historian might say "pub sessions got axed because the punters didn’t enjoy them" in two thousand words. I would expect a historian to at least get some of the dates right, nevertheless.

Misrepresentation on the Discussion Board

Tony Becker, you definitely take the cake for reshaping things to your own prejudicial stereotypes. You respond with such inaccuracy & distortion that I implore you to please reconsider those statements (of fact or fiction?) in the context of your own preconceptions about people.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Sorry, but an historian might perhaps write ‘There is some evidence, both contemporarily documented* and from more recent biographical** and anecdotal*** information, that some public house traditional music sessions were or may have been discontinued as a result of customer dissatisfaction.’

* Sprockett, Sid (1963) ‘The decline in the public house music session’ in ‘Journal of Ethnomusicology’, University of Ballyfeckit Press, IV, pp. 94-294.

**O’Looney, Conchubhar (1982) ‘Whacking the Goat - How to Beat the Bodhrán and Win’, Snipcock and Tweed, London.

***Recordings of conversations with fiddlers Niamh Ní Nubile, Caiomhín Ó Críkaí, Derek Pules, et. al. undertaken and transcribed by Bernice Sprockett in 1927 and currently held by the Ballyfeckit Institute of Folklore.

Posted by .

Re: On the interest of the Publican

And an editor might then have deleted "some" and a referee required that each option of "were or may have been" was linked to the approprite citation.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

I suppose there’s enough cake to go around.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Though the editor would have re-read before hitting ‘post’.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Good post Mac, I was labouring the same point.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Well …

California’s a Garden of Eden, but believe it or not, there are some folks who would rather that you hadn’t got the doh re me.

Posted by .

Re: On the interest of the Publican

I’m sure even the Ballyfeckit Institute would turn out more accurate blurb than a Becker.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

@weejie . I have it on good authority that your concern for "facts" like dates, places, and persons is an artifact of an outdated mode of historical inquiry which privileges a scientistic viewpoint, thereby supporting the dominant narrative and perpetuating the existing power structure. "Facts" obscure the voices of the marginalized, which the historian is able to intuit by some means which have not been made clear to me. I think it involves a ouija board, but I’m not sure.
No word on whether it’s ironic that that power structure, in turn, is what supports the so-called historians spewing that garbage.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

I know it’s not a song website. But, if it’s only one line can’t you try to get the words right, eb?

Re: On the interest of the Publican

"I suppose there’s enough cake to go around."

Cheesecake?

Re: On the interest of the Publican

I like cheesecake, if there’s coffee. Or a nice port, but it’s too early for port where I am. But if you’ve got cheesecake, then yes, please, I’d love a slice.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Too late - Red Leicester’s gang are out trying to roll it down a Cheshire mountain.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

& to think, the webmaster sent me that nice letter explaining why my comments were removed early on in the thread.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

" But, if it’s only one line can’t you try to get the words right, eb?"

Poetic licence - after taking an exam in one of 50 different languages.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

"I know it’s not a song website. But, if it’s only one line can’t you try to get the words right, eb?"

You’ve missed my point, Babs.

Posted by .

Re: On the interest of the Publican

I think Weejie gets my point.

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Re: On the interest of the Publican

O.K., I get it. I happen to like the Woody Guthrie version.
Cheers, Ben!

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Point, schmoint. Where’s my cheesecake?

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Isn’t it obvious why the Beckers were drawn to this forum?

😏

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Yes, obviously it was the cheesecake. (I’m still waiting, by the way…)

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Lyrics:

http://www.bensands.com/lyrics-43.html

"So I sit here in the café and behold the trouser stain

with the cheesecake in my pocket just in case you come again."

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Yeah, I LOVE the Woody Guthrie version. The thing that I really like about it, and which sends shivers down my spine every time I hear it, is the contrast between the apparently cheerful nature of both the tune and words and the chilling underlying reality of the story behind the words. Which just so happens, in my view, to be very appropriate in the context of this thread.

I bet the Beckers think they’re ‘patriotic Americans’ - bring me your poor, your needy, blah blah … ‘s long as they’re not Asians. Or hispanics … or whatever … Ah sure feck it! Just bring me some decent Aryans!

Posted by .

meant to type < an aside about local racism >

Re: On the interest of the Publican

"’Hmm, this makes interesting reading - https://thesession.org/sessions/2960"

I’m breaking my promise for the sake of my current regular session at the Poet and Patriot in Santa Cruz, CA.

I invite you all to take MacCruiskeen’s suggestion, read the comments on the Poet and Patriot posting, and respond on this thread as you see fit.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Thanks, Weejie, I hadn’t come across that one. I’ll have to track down a recording. I’m more familiar with Colm than with Ben, but they’ve both got some great songs.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

I see from the comments on that session that AmeriCeltic (https://thesession.org/members/78968) posted that rant on Facebook before bringing it here. I guess Daily Mail readers, or whatever the American equivalent is, have an easier time on FB. (I don’t use it).

Funny how the racists described in that SPLC piece have managed not to count Spain as part of Europe when defending "European culture". Even the most overt Nazis this side of the pond wouldn’t see it that way.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

"I invite you all to take MacCruiskeen’s suggestion, read the comments on the Poet and Patriot posting, and respond on this thread as you see fit."

Becker, whichever Becker you might be, the fact that your "session" is a circle jerk has sort of become less interesting than the fact that you’re trying to push some sort of white-power agenda on this site. If you’re talking crap about my friends, I don’t think much of you, and there’s plenty of friends of mine that you’re slandering with this stuff, so to hell with the both of you.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

You accuse me of being racist, apparently for my interest in ethnicity, but overlook pertinent personal facts. While I was born here in California, my father was a native speaker of an Asian language, and a first generation American. I also have several Native American ancestors on my mothers side, and had relatives on both sides of the Battle of Goliad, Texas. I would never insult my ancestors, or their other descendants, my cousins.

As for the epithets about interest in genealogy/genetics, unless you’ve had one in four females in one branch of your family dying of a genetic related illness, and half the males in another line on blood thinners from the age of about 2 on, you probably wouldn’t understand—and you shouldn’t be condemning my interests out of hand.

Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker

Re: On the interest of the Publican

"I would never insult my ancestors, or their other descendants, my cousins."

No, but anyone else’s are fair game.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

"you probably wouldn’t understand"

I understand quite well. I’ve met racist scumbags before. Some of them wore suits and talked pretty, too, but they were racist scumbags. You talk a lot like them.

"and you shouldn’t be condemning my interests out of hand."

"Condemning your interests"? I’m just repeating what you’ve said above, in plainer language.
You’re the worst kind of racist - you know you’re wrong, and you can’t help yourself, so you try to recruit others to join your little liberal klavern. "Oh, but if those Mexicans come in, they won’t want to listen to Irish music, and the bars will start having salsa instead of sessions!"

Don’t even try to twist that one around. It’s pathetic. If you don’t like being a bigot, stop. Go to rehab or something, I think they have doctors for people like you. Just don’t waste your time trying to justify that garbage you’re spewing around here. If there’s any takers, you’ll notice they aren’t jumping up to join you.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

"my father was a native speaker of an Asian language, "

He was Hungarian, wasn’t he?

Isn’t that a bit like a Finn saying "I can’t be racist because I speak an Asian language"?

I suggest that you read "The Uralic Language Family. Facts, Myths and Statistics, by Angela Marcantonio.

This might interest you too:

http://www.sci.u-szeged.hu/fokozatok/PDF/Kovacsne_Csanyi_Bernadett/tezisfuzet_angol_CsanyiB.pdf

Not that it in any way makes any difference to that preposterous statement disguised as reasoning.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

One tiny point, Jon: You wrote "liberal Klavern" Huh?!! Klaverns are reactionary. Otherwise, your take on the OP pretty much agrees with mine. @Beckers. These would be my first thoughts: Are you drinking enough water? Do you exercise regularly? Did you play in the Guadalupe creek a lot when you were kids, thereby absorbing dangerous levels of methylmercury?

Re: On the interest of the Publican

That picture of the genetics of the Hungarians is far from new. It’s what Gyorgy Paloczi-Horvath wrote in "In Darkest Hungary" (1944) - he believed that the Hungarians were brought from further east as slaves, with the language being what rulers like Attila spoke. That fits exactly with the genetic picture described in that research. Dunno where Paloczi-Horvath got that - as a refugee writing a short polemic in a desperate hurry he didn’t give a lot of references.

Off-topic

So, in other words, Cecilia, your father was a native speaker of a language not uncommon in Europe.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

I take it you are referring to the first link I posted, Jack. That was posted in error. The second link suggests that modern Hungarians have genetic links more in common with other Europeans and also points out that just a small percentage of the samples taken from ancient Hungarian remains show to be unambiguously Asian in origin.
The validity of any linguistic relationship between Modern Hungarian and the language of Attila is pretty much put in doubt in the book I mentioned.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

My quote from A. H. Glasgow above was misapplied. So i’ll coin my own as it applies to the feckless Beckers:

The stronger the opinion, the more distorted the facts.

Jeremy must be on holiday. Racist, half-witted rot like this doesn’t belong here.

Posted .

Holiday or not I’ve had two comments deleted off this thread.

Still, there is a subtle nuance in the original ;)

"The fewer the facts, the stronger the opinion." A. H. Glasgow
It’s civil, IMHO.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

"One tiny point, Jon: You wrote "liberal Klavern" Huh?!! Klaverns are reactionary."

So are many self-styled liberals these days. "Liberal" no longer describes an ideology or a position, it’s just a team that you join. The ideas in your head are what matter, and on those grounds I really can’t make much distinction between a white-pride Aryan Nation skinhead and a "cultural identity" liberal. As we see above, it’s very hard to tell them apart except by their hairstyles.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

"Isn’t that a bit like a Finn saying "I can’t be racist because I speak an Asian language"?"

Careful now. Getting a little close to home here.

But I guess it’s okay ‘cause I hardly speak any Finnish…

Re: On the interest of the Publican

"But I guess it’s okay ‘cause I hardly speak any Finnish…"

If you did, you’d be speaking a language in the same group as Hungarian - though the grouping doesn’t make it a ‘sister language’ but rather a distant cousin (or even less according to the aforementioned book - there are conflicting theories). I’m sure you get the point, Jon, but I’m half expecting a response from someone who doesn’t.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

"As we see above, it’s very hard to tell them apart except by their hairstyles."

I’m wondering if there are so many bad hairstyles in these klaverns that they have to wear hoods to cover them up…..

Re: On the interest of the Publican

"So are many self-styled liberals these days. "Liberal" no longer describes an ideology or a position, it’s just a team that you join."

I think that is American politics in general these days, especially as it’s portrayed in the media. Mostly how it’s portrayed in the media, actually, because I hope there are some smart people still left in the country who know better. Being "liberal" or "conservative" these days has more in common with supporting one sports team or another than it has to do with having any grasp political ideology. "We hate the liberals!" Why? "’Cause they’re communist scumbags who want to inflict socialism on the country!" Do you know what those words mean? "Evil." That’s about the level of political discourse these days.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Much along the lines of the Becker’s posts: "All immigrants are evil. Oh, except for the white ones."

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Well, as long as they’re not from Eastern Europe anyway.

Posted .

Re: On the interest of the Publican

I hate them bodhran players who come over here and steal our jobs.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

I had earlier being toying with a post, the reason for which has now passed, that needed a lighter phase of the thread. It involved analogies between (and the benefits of) Polish plumbers, Indian computer programers, Philipino nurses and American social scientists 😉

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Well many session musicians are indeed very particular about guarding their territory but they don’t usually tend to discriminate on racial or ethnic grounds.

"Naebody else gets in…"

😛

Re: On the interest of the Publican

😉 from the start

Worst rant ever ~

Cowardly though, or it could have been worse.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

What is he even talking about?

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Here’s a rough translation, Jerone:

paragraph 1: We live in a golden age, racism has been conquered, with some trivial exceptions. Communities are segregated because people prefer to live "with their own kind" rather than for reasons of economic or social discrimination.

paragraph 2: California is now 1/3 Hispanic, with the implication that this is a bad thing. (others, later in the discussion, dispute these figures, convincingly)

paragraph 3: Populations are segregated, and there is gang violence, and these are somehow related in some unspecified way.

paragraph 4: Those cagey, tricksy dark-skinned people keep to themselves, and they somehow manage to acquire positions of influence (at fast food restaurants, at least) and use these positions to benefit "their own".) It’s not explained how the prevelance of, say, black teenagers needing after-school jobs in a particular neighborhood is supposed to be surprising, if, as we’ve just been told, neighborhoods are desperately segregated. Presumably, if a neighborhood is predominantly populated by members of one ethnic group, we’d expect the people working at the local fast food joints also to be members of that group.

Paragraph 4.5: And there are very few sessions. (Again, not surprising: live music as a whole is not popular, Irish music is not especially hip right now, and in most of the country you don’t have either a great concentration of musicians to play the sessions or a great session tradition)

paragraph 5: As a result of all of these brown-skinned people, Irish and British-themed bars are disappearing, and the Irish music is DYING OUT! Imminent death of the tradition predicted. And of course, it’s all because of those tricksy illegals.

Of course, this is all idiocy, premised on the notion that only people with Irish ancestors like Irish music. Just like only black people listen to blues or jazz, and only Columbians listen to cumbia, and only Canadians listen to Bryan Adams and only Germans listen to Bach and so forth.

That’s right: not just bigoted, but dumb as a bag of rocks.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

That’s obsurd! Everyone likes Irish Music! lol! Remember my thread from the other week, "Public Reactions"? My experiences have stated that this is one of the most favored musics on the planet! Probably because it’s a DANCE genre(we all know that dance music is the most popular form of music in the world). It’s upbeat, a lot of it is uplifting. The "Traditional" instruments are also liked a lot, to listen to(but not commonly played cause they are so hard to learn.)

Umm, maybe Irish music isn’t a "Pop" genre of music because most of the good stuff isn’t commercialized and "studiofied", there’s lack of exposure, and therefore not being as accessible. Not to mention, Ireland being one of the smallest nations in the world, and though it does produce very fine musicians, it doesn’t produce as many people, period.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

I don’t think the tradition is dieing. I think it has already been spread throughout the world. I don’t care where the music comes from, if it’s good, it’s good, and the rest of the world is the same way i’m sure.

"African American" musicians and other performers of the arts were likely given a better chance at success than others, during our civil war and rights times, because everyone appreciates some for of art. I could hear it right now, "I don’t care if she’s black, that woman sure can saaaaang!"

The Music will never die. Every genre and style of music has a fan club, even if it is a small(smaller) one.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

I couldn’t agree more, Jerone. But it’s not surprising to find that a raving bigot is wrong on other points as well.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Thanks for the elaboration Jon. Well, since this isn’t about sessions, or instruments, or tunes… or songs… or events? Performers? Well since this isn’t about The Music, i bid this thread goodbye.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

I really hope Jeremy doesn’t strike this thread. I think that the internet is so jam packed with really nasty people it’s important to have something up there where a really nasty person has been roundly and intelligently exposed.

Posted .

Re: On the interest of the Publican

I agree too. If I were Jeremy, though, I would worry that people might point to this thread as an example of how awful they would claim the site is. I would be immensely comforted, though, by the number of decent people calmly resisting the bigotry.

Posted by .

Re: On the interest of the Publican

I think Jon’s summary helps show a difference between these people’s approach and the one that is common in the UK. Here the racists usually attempt to draw more middle of the road people to their arguments by focusing on economic and cultural issues that it can be legitimate to discuss in a democracy. It is only when what they say to ‘their own people’ is exposed that it becomes clear the the agenda in just racist.

These people sneak in with the "We live in a golden age, racism has been conquered, with some trivial exceptions" (from Jon) line. Would it fool people ? Well, it fooled me and I think some others, otherwise I wouldn’t (on the other thread)have mentioned presumed the hair and skin colour characteristics of the tribes of dark-age Brtian (1500 years ago or so) and I think the discussion Shetland genetic studues would have been avoided.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

the presumed hair … Britain … discussion of Shetland.. [maybe others !]

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Well said Llig .
Now only if we could stop descrimination against red haired people 🙂

Re: On the interest of the Publican

"I think Jon’s summary helps show a difference between these people’s approach and the one that is common in the UK"

We have the other kind here, too. It’s this defensive posturing that makes me think they consider themselves liberals.
"Some of my best housekeepers are hispanic, but…"

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Just as an example of what I mean by "liberal", I bet Cynthia knows all of the words to "Deportees", or at least has it in her collection of sheet music.
Woody would have written a song about her, I think, and she wouldn’t have twigged that it was about her.
Phil Ochs did write a song about her… I don’t know if she knows it’s about her, though.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Who’s Cynthia?

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Or whatever Madame Becker’s given name is.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

I agree, racism should not be allowed on this forum.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

"I also have several Native American ancestors on my mothers side, and had relatives on both sides of the Battle of Goliad, Texas." You can read more about them in this book, _The Irish Soldiers of Mexico_, by Michael Hogan, November 1, 2004

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0407f.asp

Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Yep, a liberal, I thought so. "Some of my best relatives are Mexicans…"

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Ms. Becker, I am a bit confused by your reference to the Battle of Goliad. It is not described in the article you linked. The article is about San Patricios fighting for Mexico in 1846. Battle of Goliad was 1836.

& this is all quite a stretch from the OP. Whatever that was about.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

"I am a bit confused by your reference to the Battle of Goliad. It is not described in the article you linked. The article is about San Patricios fighting for Mexico in 1846. Battle of Goliad was 1836."

I have researched many lines of my ancestors. Some were in Texas in the 1830s and fought on the losing side. 10 years later one of married an Irishman who fought with the San Patricios.

"this is all quite a stretch from the OP"

Correct, so lets return to the subject of the OP.

"It’s about the music and the craic and getting on with people . ….. and having a life and knowing when to move on . "

Truer words were never spoken. I’m moving on and suggest we all do the same.

Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker

Re: On the interest of the Publican

It took me awhile to see what the OP was. But in the context of subsequent responses, probably from Tony rather than yourself, I do consider the OP to have been chauvinistic if not downright racist. But yes, as bazouki dave says in your quotation, it’s good to know when to move on. For myself the time to move on will be when I’m convinced that one or both of you recognizes why some here think the Beckers were being racist.

Sorry for referring back to the Chicago Manual of Style, but I cannot make sense of this, "Some were in Texas in the 1830s and fought on the losing side. 10 years later one of married an Irishman who fought with the San Patricios."

I’m not trying to be nitpicky. I just don’t understand what you’re saying.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

"10 years later one of <these> married an Irishman who fought with the San Patricios."

Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker

Re: On the interest of the Publican

I hope you read the Frederick Douglas article. IMHO he has a more insightful perspective of events at the time & the choices to make than Michael Hogan.

I’ll assume you’re saying you have ancestors who fought for Mexico during the Goliad Campaign 1835 - 36. One of these, presumably female, married a Mexican (Irish by birth) soldier (c. 1846).
Sorry for the bother, it’s just that in an earlier reference you specified the Battle of Goliad, & then again before the hyperlink. But the article was not about that particular battle.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

" 10 years later one of married an Irishman who fought with the San Patricios."

One of the soldiers who fought at Goliad married an Irishman who fought with the San Patricios?
I think you’ve got a traditional ballad in your ancestry. Or else you’re just making stuff up and not doing a very good job of it.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

No, the Goliad soldier’s daughter married an Irishman who fought with The San Patricios. I have no idea if he played or sang any Irish traditional music.

Recall too that my primary motive in this line of research is tracing the genetically linked diseases in my ancestors. It has very little to do with the OP, i.e. who I play and sing with on Sundays, or whether the Publican’s interests are served in doing so.

Again, we should all move on.

Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Thanks for clearing up that bit of history Cecilia. Hope you can understand how I wasn’t able to suss it all out.

Re: On the interest of the Publican

"Recall too that my primary motive in this line of research is tracing the genetically linked diseases in my ancestors." I seem to have missed that. Where did tell us ?

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Where did you tell us ?

Re: On the interest of the Publican

Actually she did David.
https://thesession.org/discussions/28766/comments#comment611817
"As for the epithets about interest in genealogy/genetics, unless you’ve had one in four females in one branch of your family dying of a genetic related illness, and half the males in another line on blood thinners from the age of about 2 on, you probably wouldn’t understand—and you shouldn’t be condemning my interests out of hand."

Re: On the interest of the Publican

OK, fine, sorry Cecilia. I hadn’t registered that it was the primary motive.