Now we have this little problem sorted …

… I can show you what can, but should never happen, when a new manager takes over a pub with a well established session.
On Friday 16th December 2011 a new manager took over Malachy’s pub in Quinn County Clare, Ireland.
The new manager signed the lease at 4pm. At 5pm the new manager rang John Lyons (the leader of our Friday night session for 34 years) and sacked him. When the rest of us turned up at 9.30pm for the session we found that a box player from Kinvara had been booked to lead the session. We declared Malachy’s a no go area and as far as we are concerned there is no longer a session in Malachy’s.
Two new sessions have now been started on Friday nights with John at the helm. They are held alternate Friday nights 9.30pm until they finish, in the “Monk’s Well” Quinn co. Clare and the “Honk” Ballycally, Shannon co. Clare (at the back of the airport). Both these venues are great places to play and we have been made very welcome by the managers. The session is better than ever now and this little problem has bonded the group even closer than before. All visitors and musicians are very welcome at these sessions. I have added the two new sessions and a comment under “Malachy’s” to show that that session no longer takes place in the “Sessions” section.
How would other people have dealt with this problem?

Not very nice for the box player from Kinvara though

Are paid sessions fun or what?

“Not very nice for the box player from Kinvara though”

Worse things have happened to scabs in the past. I’m sure the box player will be fine, as long as they pay more attention where they step in future.

Glad to hear things are working out, Bernie.

Wasn’t the box players fault of course. The problem was the new manager wanting her own pals playing or something like that. I am sure the box player in question can handle that sort of situation even though he is a young man, he is well known.
Anyway the problem is solved as far as we are concerned. I just wondered if the situation would have been handled in different manner by other people, after all we are still playing on the the same night in pub almost just across the road once a fortnight.

Bernie, it sounds to me as if you tried to make the best of an unexpected and unpleasant situation.

Laurence

On the face of it, sounds like Malachy’s didn’t properly appreciate what they had going for them. But when money comes into it.. who knows?

You get plonkers everywhere.
I want to know how you can sack the leader of a session.

If he’s paid to run the session you can sack him. I’m surprised you don’t know this Pete - there’s an awful lot of paid sessions in London.

John has anchored that session for 34 years so i’m pretty sure he did recieve some sort of payment, either cash or beer or both, but either way she told him not to come any more as his services were no longer required. During the time i’ve been going there (thats about 14 years on and off) it’s always been a good well attended happy session with plenty of drink passing over the counter, enough to keep any publican happy.

34 years? That’s an amazing accomplishment.

Sounds like both sides of this story are required…..

TSS’s comment FTW so far…

Yes it would be nice to hear the other side of the story. It came completely out of the blue with no reason given.

I’m curious as to what the new manager was trying to accomplish. Whatever John got for running the session sounds nominal at best, and as an open session, no one was being excluded. Was there an issue between John and the new manager? Is it such a luxury to run a session that she thought she was doing something for the box player? If others take the place of the members that left, will any of this make a difference in the long run?

As far as I know there was no issue between John and the new manager, anyway it all happened so fast. The manager did the deed within 1 hour of taking over & before anyone had even gone into the place. I don’t think John has issues with anyone to be honest. It is extremely doubtful that anyone local will take the place of local musicians as we are all extremely upset and angry at what was done and the way it was done, in fact I doubt if any local musicians will even go in there again for a drink now. I think she is of the opinion that by getting big names she will attract a lot of custom. I doubt that will be the case out here with the drink drive laws as they are now.

Ah….. “big names”………….that might be your answer there, Bernie. Also, it occurs to me that if John has been running the session for 34 years, would the new accordion player be younger ? Might there be a bit of “ageism” going on here ? Sorry to hear about this - it’s a sad situation all round, and I hope it turns out well for John, yourself and the other musicians, [ including the guy from Kinvara, who is undoubtedly in an awkward situation not of his making ].

As far as I’m aware there’s only one ‘big name’ accordionist currently living in Kinvara. If it’s who I think it is, I doubt he’ll be too upset.

Exactly what I was wondering too…

Bernie, have you had a chat with the lad with the box? I’m curious to know if he has given his side to it? Are there possibly family connections involved? That woudln’t be uncommon…

The disrespect of how this was treated would have had me doing something similar, going elsewhere. Such a rash and inconsiderat decision without discussion, as this seems to be the case here, deserves little consideration in return.

My initial reaction would be something along the lines of “to hell with them.” ~ and quickly leave it all behind, as best I could, which doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be stewing over it for sometime afterwards. You’ve done the positive, moved forward and onward. Good on you…

34 years? Wow, that’s quite something! That alone makes it a bigger deal than if the session had only been going a few months.

The real story……firstly I would like to point out that I am leasing a pub not musicians. Yes the previous management had an arrangement with John for a music session so therefore….. I didn’t hire John so how could I have sacked him????? However, out of courtesy, I did contact John explaining that I had a lot of expense in starting off my new business venture and that I had friends who are willing to help me out and play gigs for free as they know how hard it is, especially in this economic climate, to start off a business venture. I did explain to John that we could discuss gigs once I was up and running in the business. I find it alarming that claims of ageism and being a scab are viciously accused in this discussion from people who do not know me personally. As a musician I have played in sessions, as a publican I have arranged manys a session and continue to do so…all welcome to Malachy’s Bar, every Fri night for craic, agus ceol. Feel the love for the music!

Well, that’s even better than I’d hoped for, an ‘other side’… Thanks for taking the time. Hmmmm… 😏 (me pondering…)

Starting a new business is always a matter of risks. It’s a shame that one of these ended up in the parting of ways, for whatever the reasons, realized or subconscious, on both sides… Best of health to all ~ from someone who knows well ageism is no fantasy…

Mr Malachys Bar, did you inherit from your predecessor any employment contracts?

Interesting… definitely a case of two sides to every story. It does sound as if the publican was well within her rights if she had friends who would play in the session for free when the longstanding session leader -- or so it seems from what she wrote -- wouldn’t.

My previous point stands… Aren’t paid sessions (and the politics that go with them) fun?

“Well within her rights” perhaps, but not living in a moral vacuum. The other players have done nothing to harm the new management - they’ve just taken their business elsewhere, because they felt that one of their own had been mistreated. Their choice, and nobody can complain to them about that.

Handled correctly, this would not have been an issue. Apparently there was a lesson there to be learned, and I don’t know whether the new owner of the pub has learned it or not. Doesn’t sound like it, though.

It is very easy to get rid of regular customers, and extremely difficult to get them back.

Too often overlooked where business is concerned, but, as mentioned by Jon and gam and others ~ at a risk…

Best not to take sides, eh? I don’t know what exactly the publican said to John, nor do I knew what he said to his pals about it later. Do you? As with most things, lots of shades of grades here but I don’t think it is as simple a story as “Poor Wee Musicians against Big Bad Publican.”

*know

I agree with that. Megaphoned disputes tend to display mucho heat and not much light.

In the UK at the moment, the British Prime Minister is promoting this “big” idea of his called “big society”. what it means practically, of course, is reducing public services to such an extent that voluntary organisations feel compelled to take up the necessary slack.

Now, is running a pub a public service? Not in the eyes of most publicans, it’s a profit making down the line capitalist business.

The whole world is a profit making capitalist business.

So if the publican sees an opportunity to sack an employee and replace them with a younger model who will work for free then the business sense of it is overwhelming.

Hoorah for business. Don’t we all love it.

And all the other musicians are free to go elsewhere to drink and play music. Beware of those unintended consequences.

With all respect, Emily, I think it’s pretty clear what happened, and I think llig and Al have just summarized it. Everyone exercised their prerogatives and the world will adjust to those decisions and move along.

I’ve seen it often enough, it’s an old story.

I can’t see what all the fuss is about. There’s no obligation on the publican to pay a session leader. And there’s no obligation on the musicians to carry on turning up. So what?

One thing I don’t quite understand here is that Kinvara and Quin are not exactly neighbouring villages in Co.Clare. You’d have to make a fair bit of effort and put a good wee bit of petrol in the tank to get from one to other. Maybe an hour each way on not great roads, though possibly detouring to Gort and the new motorway might add a few miles but speed things up.

The point being, our friend in Kinvara would have to be pretty good friends to undertake that on any regular basis, free gratis and out of good will?? Doesn’t quite stack up?

I was a publican for many years, and one of the first things I learned from my associates was a lesson that would serve incoming managers of any business, not just pubs -- don’t make ANY changes until you are absolutely sure of what is going on. The new broom approach may be financially attractive, but it can kill your trade, and pays no regard to the people whose lives you have chosen to affect.
Having said that, while I understand the OP’s desire to have a whinge, I don’t think this is the right place to do it. Be careful not to burn bridges.

John Lyons was well paid for his music sessions over his 34yrs. The new publican explained to John that she could not afford to pay him the large amount of money he had been recieving for 34yrs and if he was a true musician he would play music for nothing. In every walk of life there are changes and okay its hard to accept change sometimes. This girl is trying to make a living for herslelf and we should be wishing her the best of luck not trying to destroy her before she starts at all. There is room out there for everybody. John Lyons knows the real story!!
Malachys is the home of Irish Music in Quin!!

Thanks for giving the other side of story that is much appreciated, but it could have been handled in a much better way. 4 hours notice that someones services are no longer required after 34 years of playing? Couldn’t we have been forwarned that this was going to happen and left it until after Christmas at least. The way this was done has upset and angered the majority of musicians and friends of John.

Well that is the way it was handled the lease was signed and the new landlady took over and that is her business. I think John Lyons has to come out of the woodwork and start telling the real story here, he was not sacked he decided to stop playing because he was not getting his big fee every Friday night and again I say if he was a true musician he would have played anyway even though he was not being paid!! If John is your so called friend he should have told you the real story. But money speaks all languages and it is very unfair of the public to discuss the business that was between John Lyons and the new Landlady!! Here is to the women of the world who run their own businesses!!

If he was a true musician he would have played anyway?

Is that what you’d tell your bar staff? ‘If if you are a true pint puller you’d turn up every week pro bono?’

Sounds like a discussion of the ethics of paid v. unpaid sessions is in order.

Well, we would have to ask the question if the pub would find it acceptable if the musicians wouldn’t turn up because they don’t feel like playing on the night.or go home early if there’s a noisy crowd in that makes it impossible to hear yourself think, let alone play. Or spend the night talking among themselves instead of playing. Or just go for a walk because it’s a nice night.

Does the pub advertise itself as ‘the home of trad music’, is there a sign outside saying ‘trad music here tonight’? Then they’ll have to accept the reality is they will have to provide an incentive of sorts for musicians to turn up in time each and every week.

The sessions I go to now are all unpaid, the session I used to play at in Newcastle was unpaid, and my sessions back in Colorado were all unpaid. Yet they all happen every week, without fail. I suppose there is always the risk that no one would turn up one week, but it never happens. People always turn out for these sessions.

What suits me better is the vibe of the unpaid session, but that’s just my own personal take on it.

A paid session is not a real sessions,its a gig. The publican made the call, and he takes the hit. Seems to me the original “leader”has found a new gig. Maybe the new "leader, might be worthy of support, not silly slurs. There are loads of pubs out there. If I were you Bernie, Id work at geting over it and ignore the nonsensical name-calling.

I’ve often played in “mock” sessions: music played in a seemingly informal way in the manner of a session, acoustic etc. Usually paying well too. These are gigs.

Sessions, I prefer the non- (nobody being paid) -paid type also, just a little more organic. That said, if a couple of anchors get paid to turn up every week and ensure that it happens, thats alright too IMO, especially if there are others turning up to have a tune, those are most certainly still a session in my book. Just mentored or led, or whatever…… It’s what happens in quite a few places.

I tried to add this last night, and again earlier, but for some reason our Internet connection here is tentative…

I’ll start where it finished before it went POOF!

Locally, of the half dozen or so sessions I know of, NONE are paid.

Personally, other than observing from the sidelines, I don’t think I’ve ever taken part in a paid session, definitely not where just one person was paid to carry the weight, or the big stick, figuratively speaking. I prefer group dynamics to single mindedness, and believe it is better to face any problems collectively, rather than dumping it in the lap of one person. I’m also not fond of tyranny, including my own when I catch myself abusing power. So, being a child of nature, I prefer things a little wild, or at least not affected and not so organized that the starch makes things squeak a bit. However, I have enjoyed a few such ‘organized’ things from a distance, enjoying a drink, company, chat - and the music at a distance. There’s something of the obstacle course, not, what is that called, yes, the ‘gauntlet’ about such events. Will one pass the tests or not. I’m also not really good at the art of brown nosing. I don’t like the stink of the usual politics involved. We’ve no shortage of tyrants, why give them extra authority with a wage and all that power.

Actually, I have been involved in what might be called ‘paid’ sessions, but we all benefited and it was drink, and if we were lucky, as has sometimes been the additional blessing, we might be offered a bite to eat too, like one who took orders and provided bacon or chip or bacon and chip butties. That was sweet. As to challenges, the load was spread and not held by one poor sod, and we made joint decisions rather than being directed by one paid person.

However, as Silver has said, that’s another topic we could again raise on site here and have a natter over.

However it’s done, losing touch any side of the divides is unfortunate, and for something so long established - however, that could also mean set in their ways and inflexible. The ‘change’ could be the best thing for all, room to breath, to reasess ones assets and ones failings… I wish both sides success, as the last thing I would ever want is to see another business or session fold… Best of luck…

[ post ] ~ “click!” ~ 😏 will it work this time?

Yes! 🙂 ~ sigh, finally…

I have given the facts as I see them and as far as I am aware I have not made any slurs or done any name calling. It doesn’t matter to me whether John was paid or not. I enjoy his company, his music and his songs. The new manager has given her side of the story for which I am grateful. I am just not happy with the way the deed was done and the speed at which it was done. I wanted to show how this has adversly affected a number of people both musicans and listeners. We have our new sessions now so as far as I am concerned the matter is closed.

’Good communication and understanding between the publican and the musicians is a must, and a tolerant, welcoming and appreciative landlord is a blessing.

One potential problem with something being so well established is entrenchment, inflexibility, the inability to adapt, to accept change, even when such things are inevitable. A ‘new’ landlord is a big change, and for that to mean more changes, well, that should probably be taken as a given. I’ve experienced a few ‘bad’ changes along those lines, so there is a little more sympathy, bias, for the musicians, naturally. But I also remember well how in other situations the musicians took the landlord and situation for granted and there was very little real communication, until that same landlord decided to turn on the tele and raise the volume.

Surely, there must be better and more contructive ways of dealing with such upheaval and reconstruction… And, as here, for me to temper my biases, at least a little… 😉

Yes! 🙁

Someone was lacking communication and people skills…

Now we have this little problem sorted. The circle is complete!

“This girl is trying to make a living for herslelf and we should be wishing her the best of luck not trying to destroy her before she starts at all.”

Nobody’s trying to destroy anyone. She came in, screwed up, lost a bunch of trade. Big deal, she’ll figure herself out. It’s not the first time this has happened, and it won’t be the last.

This isn’t an issue of unpaid sessions, that decision was made years ago in this particular case. This is about treating people with respect as a good business practice.

As for what a “true musician” would have done, anyone who’s been playing this music for more than three decades has a pretty good prima facie case for being called a “true musician”.

CoCo Bell, please don’t act like you aren’t Malachy’s Bar. I find it truly sad that you believe that a “real musician” should feel that his or her music has no value. I also can’t help but note that it’s a conveniently self-serving belief.

“This is about treating people with ‘respect’ as a good business practice.” ~ Jon

Hang on a moment, just rewind a bit here:

“If he was a true musician he would play music for nothing.”

Jesus feckin H christ on a feckin bike. That says it all. I’m not surprised the poor fella told you where to get off.

oooooh I’m fizzing.

Can you picture the conversation:

“Hi, is that John?”
“Yes”
“Hi John, this is the new landlady at Malachy’s … I just signed the lease this afternoon”
“Uh huh”
“Thing is, I know you’ve been playing down here for 34 years, but seeings as you are a true musician, would you mind playing for nothing from now on? It’s no problem if you don’t, I’ve a fella who’s only an hour or so away who can step in.”

(I’d love to hear the next bit)

Here’s the next bit:-

John: “Listen Mary, have you heard of TUPE” ?
Mary: “No what’s TUPE is it like a wig or something”
John: “No, it’s a Transfer of Undertakings Protection of Employment directive where all contracts should be respected and transferred to the new employer”
Mary: “but John,you didn’t have a contract, you had an arrangement”
John “F u c k sake Mary you’re right, ya cute whore ya”
Mary “And you didn’t declare your arrangement with the Tax inspectors neither, John, did ya, I might report you”


and I would love to hear the next bit…

Well I have never heard the likes of it , this really is the stuff of John B Keane so instead of “the field” we have “the Pub” . Now lets make the movie !

Could we get the box player from Kinvara to play themselves? And not pay them?

Hell, we can get the landlady to play herself for free. If she’s a real actress, that is.

TheSilverSpear: “The sessions I go to now are all unpaid”

If you are who I think you are, and if you are still going to the session I’ve seen you at, no they aren’t.

Childcare costs mean some people can’t afford to lead a session every week for free beer.

# Posted on February 2nd 2012 by ceolachan
https://thesession.org/discussions/29261

Llig - I’m confused. So, in your world, true musicians should get paid NOT to perform?

Absolutely, Ben,

Let’s all get paid for not growing alfalfa (pace Joseph Heller).

As you know, Geoff, plenty of people actually do just that, thanks to the EU. Presumably, also, in order to play in the session, you’d have to be mad. But, if you’ve played in the session, you must actually be mad, so you’re not allowed not to play in the session.

On the subject of Heller, have you read Something Happened? I reckon it’s even more haunting than Catch 22.

Jack, if we’re talking about the same session, I know fine well those guys are paid and I haven’t been to that session since 2008.

It shouldn’t need matter what child care costs. True trad musicians bring their babies to the pub. My grandfather owned a bar, they lived next door, & my family visited the relatives every opportunity. Please tell me healthy, happy families, such as ours, are still bringing up their children (& grandchildren) in such a rich environment as I had.
O.K. a couple of the uncles were a bit spooky, but that’s most families. The rest of the aunts, uncles, cousins, & all are (were) grand!

I used to take my kids to the pub tunes on a saturday afternoon. Then the law changed.

I know some musicians who have played in Malachys since the change and they have all been paid. I don’t think the box player is in any position to be driving to Quin for free. Well known doesn’t mean well off. The landlady did make a big slip up in her actions. Thats not to say there isn’t two sides to the story. But if the other side is that she (Malachys Bar and Cocobell) thinks that John Lyons should play for free..well then I think it’s better if she stays away from trad altogether. If a paid musician is bringing in other musicians and they’re buying drinks all night, then he’s worth the money. And maybe the owner should have sorted out an arrangement BEFORE coco took up her lease? I think John got a lucky break myself…he still plays every Friday night just not for someone that disguises soul-less-ness as business conduct.

What sort of people would suffer a law which prevents parents from taking their children into a pub on a Saturday afternoon where they would be able to hear some tunes?

FOR THE RECORD!

I am the owner of Malachy’s Bar Quin Co Clare Ireland.
John Lyons was not sacked!
It is NO ONES BUSINESS, what has gone on between John Lyons and my new tenant(NOT MANAGER!)
Who has the right to make comment & negative remarks about people they nothing absolutely nothing about.
The comments provided by a member of this session.org are incorrect and inaccurate about the details & the history of the sessions in Malachys
Who gives anyone the right to declare a pub my pub a no go area because of “hear say” do you realise that comments like these about my pub are defamatory and they will not be tolerated.
I am a 4th generation publican in the west coast of Ireland who has now given somebody else the opportunity to run a business in my premises. We are in the middle of the worst recession ever in this country and on top of that my tenant has the misfortune of having to cope with comments that are inaccurate & derogatory and that are completely insulting, it’s absolutely disgraceful in this day and age.
Malachys Bar is known all over the world for its traditional Irish music open sessions and we will always endeavour to continue this with the help of talented musicians both young and old.
EVERY musician is welcome in Malachys Bar and they will be taken good care of (this has always been the case) as we love our traditional music, dance, and our loyal customers who travel far and wide to witness brilliance in music song and dance.
“dia libh go léir. is féidir do gloine i gcónaí a bheith iomlán. Oscail do aigne!”
God bless you all. May your glass be always full. Open your minds !
http://youtu.be/DcEKILsorq8

play video

http://youtu.be/0uAFbMZgFqM

play video

“John Lyons was not sacked!”

I thought it was no one’s business.

“It is NO ONES BUSINESS, what has gone on between John Lyons and my new tenant.”
Sorry Gemma, at present your statement is wishful thinking.

I’ll be sorry when this ‘series’ ends. From a musician’s point of view it more exciting than ‘Coronation Street’

Oh, what a tangled web……
Seems to me that a new tenant, taking over a going concern, doesn’t have any special expenses, unless they choose to incur them themselves.
And the argument for not changing anything, until you can see how it all works, is a good one too.
But a new broom always has to find the last bit of dust, that’s just human nature unfortunately. My last H.o.D. was like that. Well, I don’t work for that B’Astard any more, I’m pleased to say.
There are always two ways to walk into a new establishment;
“This works well, let’s keep it this way.”; or;
“THERE’S GONNA BE SOME CHANGES MADE !”.

I thought the whole point was that John Lyons was not sacked, but was told he could keep his job but not get paid? Is this true or not? Saying it’s no ones’ business is just not good enough.

And i’m amused at your rant where there are a couple of sentences that appear to be questions, but their lack of question marks renders them pejorative statements.

Plus, the whole thing about “real musicians should play for nothing” needs seriously addressed.

Just like when there is an accident on the road, I just can’t resist the temptation to slow down and gawk.

Llig, are you advocating for sessions having unions? I would guess the large majority of musicians, in every single session, play for no monetary compensation.

G.P ~ a third way, akin to your second ~ as a gunslinger… The changes ‘will’ be immediate…

“I would guess the large majority of musicians, in every single session, play for no monetary compensation.”


Obviously true. However, they make no commitment to appear. If you’re on the schedule, you ought to be paid.

Cheers, Jon. You’re advocating a particular hierarchy, & that’s fine. ;)

Dear Malachy’s:
What’s the best way to drive away customers when you take over a new business?

Geantraí 2010 Malachys Quin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWviwnpVgys

play video

If not, I’d think you might have found a better recording of the music played in Malachy’s.
http://clarelibrary.blogspot.com/2011/03/geantrai-in-malachys-quin-county-clare.html

“Cheers, Jon. You’re advocating a particular hierarchy, & that’s fine. ;)”

Hierarchy?

Yes, a particular hierarchy.

Not so much hierarchy, if someone is paid to show up, it’s a responsibility.

Thanks, wyo - that’s about what I would have said.

Cheers, Jon & wyogal. You’re advocating particular paid responsibilities, & that’s fine. ;)

No, not advocating anything, just pointing out that “hierarchy” implies power, authority over others. Whereas viewing a paid person at a session as a responsibility is addressing the actual position… that person has a responsibility to show up. Now whether or not that person employs power struggles/plays or holds authority over individuals at a particular session, that might be construed as “hierarchy.”
Not sure where you got the idea I was advocating particular paid responsibilities. It’s word usage that I’m commenting on.

A ‘moderator’ ~ rather than a king, queen, royal family, oligarchy or totalitarian ruler…

So, you’re not advocating wyogal. Sorry it was guilt by association. Earlier I had assumed Jon was advocating; but not yourself. Beg pardon.
“Obviously true. However, they make no commitment to appear. If you’re on the schedule, you ought to be paid.”

Yes, facilitating the session, not lording over it. hopefully.

To be fair I was responding to Jon’s response (quoted above) which to me implies a dichotomy. Hopefully this term does not carry such negative connotations.

That’s about right. I’ve been payed to “anchor” many sessions and you don’t behave any different from anyone else when you’re there. But it’s a pain to “have” to be there.

“Plus, the whole thing about ”real musicians should play for nothing“ needs seriously addressed.”
Posted on February 5th 2012 by llig leahcim

Doesn’t an anchor, hopefully rarely, have certain responsibilities during a session when say a new player, or even one of the regulars, is disruptive to the music? That alone is worth paying someone to take responsibility.

After today’s experience I would be delighted to pay llig out of my own pocket to come along and kill a bodhran owner for me.

Mixing the issue.
Musicians should get paid for performances.
Folks get paid to show up as session “leaders,” meaning they have a responsibility to be there.
I am a musician that gets paid for gigs, but go to a session to play for fun. No one gets paid. Yet, we are all professionals and can and do get paid for gigs (not as a session).
and I would suspect that the person that made the comment, Coco, was wanting something for nothing. It sounded rather bitter.
context, context.

It seems to me the context was specifically about paying a session leader.
https://thesession.org/discussions/29254#comment622373
I’ll admit I was doing a bit of a windup. I can be wicked. I actually tend to agree with Llig, wyogal, & ceolachan.

Right, but the context of the “real musician” remark was IMO, made by someone that wants to be cheap. That comment seemed to take on a bigger context than a session.

Most likely true. In that particular case she was wanting to be cheap. Musicians are constantly being asked to play without pay, or at low rates (gigs). That’s a discussion worth expanding on.

No, I’ve never took it that the paid “anchor” should have any more responsibility than anyone else to “police” a session. All that stuff should be down to the collective common sense and courtesy.

And, of course, the lack of that all so common spineless embarrassment that for some reason prevents the polite asking of bodhran owners to be be quiet.

You’re quite the optimistic egalitarian, mate.
Cheers!

Now it’s down to semantics, the responsibilities expected of a paid leader/anchor/moderator, the definition and terms used, would be down to the individual setting, person and persons involved in the transaction, involved in the activity. In one situation there may be nothing else expected of the paid hand than to just be there and generate music. While in another situation they may be expected to actually moderate, to welcome newcomers, to see that the aims of the whole are at least in focus and some attempt is made to accomplish those ends, which might be open and determined by all present, or at least the regulars, or left to the person paying and the one being paid. 😏

I’m just appalled by a scenario where someone could be sat next to a really annoying noodler or worse and just be glaring at the “leader” expecting “them” to do something about it.

What’s the backstory on that comment, Llig?

There’s no back story, it’s just that where I like to play we don’t have leaders. Everyone looks around at each other and then expects the person sat next to the offender to do the talking too. It’s much better done as a quiet word anyway, less embarrassing for the offender. You try to keep it as polite as possible, but also, you have to do it quickly. It’s just daft to sit for half the night getting wound up. Also, the longer someone gets away with being out of order, the more it seems to them that their behaviour is acceptable.

We never have problems with crap noodlers and thwackers and strummers etc … well … never for longer than half a set.

Cheers! That’s an excellent commentary.

It’s true. It’s not like they’re suddenly going to figure it out. Best to get it over with before they start to feel entitled. Or even more entitled, in most cases (see Jack’s piano lady story!)

I was at a session one night and one of the musicians started to sing a song. Always nice to hear him sing, and everyone is listening, sounds grand - except for this mandolin player who was just plinking away. Not even anything related to the song, which would have been bad enough, and (weirdly) not even a tune of any sort, just sort of “playing mandolin hero” or something. Sort of a mandolin version of a tosser guitar solo, very odd. So I just reached over and put my hand over the strings, which put a stop to that. He kind of glared at me, but when I took my hand away, he didn’t start up again.

The funny thing is, he seemed to have no conception that there might be anything wrong with just playing whatever comes to mind, while someone is singing a song. I think it’s the influence of television, personally. It must be hard to remember that other people can actually hear you playing if you spend your time playing in front of the TV.

llig is pretty much right.

In this case they were never told to stop because it was someone who started out normal and insidiously developed compulsive thump disorder over a period of months. It was a bit like watching somebody you know falling into a drink or drug habit. If it had been a stranger walking in and doing the same, the response would have been immediate.

But I’ve had enough and then some.

Jack, that’s why it’s important to listen. Whoever the player is, or bodhran owner, there’s no good reason to hesitate when you hear their playing is off. If the player cannot figure it out they need to be told.

I trust he or she has been told there is a problem?

Telling a noodler their efforts aren’t appreciated is good, putting your hand on their strings to shut them up is asking for a slap.

What I do sometimes, if the room is really quiet, is to get their attention - a light touch on the knee is often enough - then do that classic gesture of putting your index finger up to your lips.

I pretty good at finding a singer’s key on the box and usually I know the song. Been doing it for years. If i’m doing the backing and someone else starts joining in in a ‘hit and miss’ way I drop out and leave them to it.