To lead, or to be lead, to be host or to be hostage ~ and there must also be, with the good shepherd tales, some horror stories to share from both sides of this, from ‘leaders’ of session, those who’ve suffered the pain and weight of the responsibilities, and from those who have felt the sting of the whip…
Don’t get me started…
Glad to see you, if anyone has tales to tell. 😀
Ok… one time there was this formidable woman who played piano who came in one night when there was a lot of people shoulder-to-shoulder around a table playing away. There were other musicians in the room waiting to find a spot, but it was wedged tight. Well, yur one decided she couldn’t wait any longer and, to everyone’s astonishment, started shoving people aside (while they were playing) from in front of the piano to make room to put a chair down, and she sat and started taking out her frustration on the piano by banging really heavy-handed. The back-up players that were playing suddenly couldn’t hear what they were doing and looked at me as if I should take action… and the people who were rudely shoved aside were also looking at me… and I shrugged… and the back-up players left with a fiddler or two… and I didn’t know what to do.
After the session finished I was approached by people demanding I do something about it… so… I thought about it all week and came up with an idea. Being a man of considerable girth, I decided I would sit in front of the piano… she would have a hard time pushing my chair even though she was built like a rugby player.
So… the next week the session was flying again and totally wedged out just like the previous week when yur one came through the door. She marched over to me… sized up the situation and then demanded that I move. I told her to just wait a bit until the session thinned out and there would be room for her. She stomped off… everyone breathed a sigh of relief… I actually seemed to have sorted it out and we continued playing.
Just as I predicted, the session started thinning out before too long and there was room for her to join us… but she was nowhere to be found. Later I heard from the owner that she marched straight over and told him I wouldn’t let her play, but he could see what the situation was and basically told her what I told her… and she stomped out of the pub.
Next thing I know all these people that weren’t there that night, (and rarely come at all) were confronting me for not letting that woman play in the session. Most of them let me explain what happened and were satisfied, but a few weren’t interested in hearing my side and they berated me without giving me a chance to say anything. She would even fill the heads of visiting Irish trad luminaries with her story… but few of them seemed to give it much credence.
The backlash continued for years until the same woman eventually pulled the same nonsense elsewhere and isolated herself from everyone eventually leaving town all together never to be heard from again. Because of that, and the allies who actually witnessed what happened and defended me… I was absolved.
We had a young man who set up his music book in the middle of the circle, and insisted on us playing along with his beginner tunes for far too long, sounding terrible. Everyone was embarrassed for him, it was truly dreadful, but he insisted on continuing. Kind of like those dreadful singers who appear in the first rounds of the Idol singing shows. We tried to suggest that he practice a bit more before appearing in public again, and never saw him again.
Sometimes there’s only so much a session leader can do. I have been attending a couple of smaller local sessions where the leaders make considerable efforts to accommodate less confident or less developed players.
There have been a couple of other new faces during that time and neither of them have been seen since, which is a pity, because if they don’t learn to play in sessions there, they won’t learn anywhere.
There is a threshold of confidence and to a certain extent, thick skin which beginners need to cross and the best-intentioned session leader in the world can’t do this for them
Some offenders can take the hint, like the large lady mentioned above. but some are unreachable, even with a carefully directed rude remark. Sometimes freezing them out will work, but it might take weeks. Arranging an E flat tuned session is a great device, as long as you remember to tell the box player.
In Galway, many years ago I witnessed a well known box player approached by a youngish man, who after praising the old timer, and telling him he was his hero, asked him if he could try out his box, with the added remark “I’m not that good”. To my surprise the box was handed over, and the interloper played his party piece, which was quite well executed, and maybe at a higher technical level to which the box was accustomed. He got a hearty cheer from the drinkers, and handed back the box. The auld lad said " you’re right, your’e not much f***ing good! Nobody else joined the session that evening.
Is this a “leadership” exam? What’s the “staff solution” to the previous comment?
… the session leader tells the veteran box player not to be so f***ing rude and alienates a long-term regular
… the session leader leads applause from the rest of the session for fear of alienating anyone else who might wish to join the session
… the session leader doesn’t care anyway. Newbies aren’t required here
class … discuss…..
Tuning up a half note can put off a box or dulcimer player. . .
Another leadership aspect is moving the session players along to where the session can evolve and not play the same stale tunes week after week. I really have not been able to figure that one out. We’ve attempted to have ‘learning’ sessions before the normal one but it’s lightly attended and it’s hard to get the tune up to speed to where it flies lightly from the strings. Yeah, meeting during the week with your mates can help but then your basically becoming a band with hangers on, right?
“the session leader tells the veteran box player not to be so f***ing rude and alienates a long-term regular”
In this case the veteran box player was the session leader.
“… the session leader doesn’t care anyway. Newbies aren’t required here”
Probably correct.
I guess being session leader is a bit like being the guy who organises the office Christmas party. Very difficult to please everyone - and not much thanks if it goes well. Whereas if there’s anything people don’t like they aren’t slow in complaining…
So a woman comes into the pub and plays triangle, not the way they do with cajun bands, which is kind of catchy, but very annoying. Makes spoon players sound like virtuosos. So the session leader suggests that it is inappropriate, and she reaches into a box at her feet and pulls out a tamborine. Turns out that she had one of those kits that school teachers have, where all the kids can get something to play. Some folks just don’t get the message…
I find that at most sessions, melody players who venture to start a tune with any hint of delicacy or lift are instant prey for the strummers and drummers who predominate. Like a pack of hounds they chase the tune, run it down, tear it to pieces and stamp the bloody fragments into the ground. There are a few valued exceptions, but as a rule I head for the bar when the first guitar or bodhran appears.
I’ve never been to a proper managed session with a paid leader. Would he or she prevent the carnage?
In some cases they’re the ones left holding the bucket and mop…
Re: Now we have this little problem sorted …
Posted on February 6th 2012 by llig leahcim
https://thesession.org/discussions/29254#comment622966
We had an obnoxious spoons player show up one night, so I dragged him out the back and beat him to death with a bicycle…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_11JDYcZX44&feature=related
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night …
Posted on March 13th 2008 by ceolachan
https://thesession.org/discussions/17030#comment354121
“So the musician who comes to subject us to their inabilities but thinks they can ~ sometimes nothing works and you have to excuse them and show them the way out… Doing that on your own is hell, speaking personally. I hate it, it actually twists me up inside. Having a committee, even if it is only two, lessens the stress and tends to balance it a bit better.”
Sometimes being a leader means you have to tell people unpleasant truths. If they’re grownups, they accept them and try to adapt, or change, or at least stop doing whatever it was that prompted you to have to be honest with them. I don’t worry about the ones who get upset anymore. I have better things to do with my limited time than parent them.
Oh great… I read a bit of that link and saw a post of mine where I already shared the episode I described above… sorry… geesh…
I’m off to start a session with just spoons, bodhran & guitar. No fiddles allowed
As I get older I realize that being kind and being tolerant are more important than having “a good session.” Some of us have been playing together for over thirty years now and we are none of us perfect players. Sessions are rarely the perfect gathering of musicians, and certainly not sessions in a pub. If you want a perfect session then you’re best getting a few like-minded players to get together in your house. Otherwise it’s a public thing and that has some disadvantages, as has been pointed out.
Sooner or later annoying people -- less accomplished players -- feel the freeze and will go away. Subtle ridicule is a very powerful weapon. It’s worse when there are unspoken resentments towards each other felt by regular players at the session.
A good session, of course, isn’t only about the music. It’s about the craic, and there is generally, but not always, more of that when nobody is getting paid and when people are there just for the craic and not because they are paid to be there.
@David Levine:
I’ve had a lot of problems with this sort of thing but your post has shown me the way forward.
In future I will be kind and tolerant while freezing out annoying people (less accomplished players) with subtle ridicule.
I agree David Levine. You have the right attitude.
It’s about coming together for the love of music, havin a drink & a bit of craic. It’s not about ‘excluding’ or ‘removing’ anyone or anything.
Some of you people make me sick with your stuck up elitist attitudes.
now wheres me bodhran?……. 😉
Bernie’s subtle ridicule of Devin Levine’s post was obviously too subtle for palethinboy.
P.B. I wasn’t going t o say, as I believe a good story deserves repetition…
I’ve never thought or expected ‘perfection’, that’s an ideal that can, where people are concerned, NEVER be achieved. Besides, there are as many definitions of what is perfect as there are people on the planet. As to sessions, they are dynamic, living, adapting, fluid, at best, but sometimes someone jumps in and makes a mess of a generally amiable event, ruins it for others, for the majority. Seriously, there is only so much you can take, and while it is a last resort, sometimes, just sometimes, hopefully rarely,the only thing left, after the welcome, after the diplomacy and kind nudging, is to tell themto "F‘k off!’, if not necessarily in those terms… They can always go and start up their own session, drum circle or guitar bashing and crooning session. ‘Kindness’ needs to be considered for all, and the good times of the many should not be sacrificed for one asshole, don’t you think… Of course, assholes do tend to think it’s all about them, and folks should just step aside and let them do their thing, however disrespectful it might be of the whole, and the history, the music, the craic…
Reality is that there are such twits in the world, and some just can’t take a kind hint, and some persist in aggravating others no matter what… At some point those lacking consideration lost their right to it…
At some point those lacking consideration ‘lose’ their right to it…
“Bernie’s subtle ridicule of Devin Levine’s post was obviously too subtle for palethinboy.”
Not true. Bernie’s post was not there for me to read wheni began my reply. It must have been posted just before my own. I was not refering to Bernie or that perticular post.
@Ceol and @other sessionites:-
How would you deal with these situations?
1) Someone playing a 32-Bar AABB format tuneset, but playing inconsistent combinations of it e.g AAB , AB, ABB, AABB?
2) Someone who always repeats *every* section of a tune, even when there are no repeats in it - thus turning a standard 32-bar tune into a 48 or 64 bar one.
3) Someone (sitting in the circle) but clearly not paying attention) starting the same tune that was played by another person immediately before?
Not hypothetical - I’ve observed all of these things at sessions!
You talk about it. You ask “why?”
Yeah, just point out that that’s not how the tune is known to you. You are sticking to AABB, lets try that tune again & see how it goes.
“1) Someone playing a 32-Bar AABB format tuneset, but playing inconsistent combinations of it e.g AAB , AB, ABB, AABB?”
Assume they can’t play and count to two at the same time. Sometimes it is too much for me……
Can’t help you with the others.
1) Someone playing a 32-Bar AABB format tuneset, but playing inconsistent combinations of it e.g AAB , AB, ABB, AABB?"
Assume they can’t play and count to two at the same time. Sometimes it is too much for me……
- must be playing with my 80 yr old father. His repeats keep you alert, thats for sure.
"1) Someone playing a 32-Bar AABB format tuneset, but playing inconsistent combinations of it e.g AAB , AB, ABB, AABB?
2) Someone who always repeats *every* section of a tune, even when there are no repeats in it - thus turning a standard 32-bar tune into a 48 or 64 bar one.
3) Someone (sitting in the circle) but clearly not paying attention) starting the same tune that was played by another person immediately before?"
1) Laugh at them. A friend of mine did this often enough he earned the nickname “Captain B Part.”
2) There is one fellow I play with semi regularly who does stuff similar to this but he always does the same thing on the same tunes. You know he’s going to play the A part of the Jolly Tinker twice and the rest of the parts once. So you try to remember each time through the tune that’s what he’s going to do. Depending on who it is, you can say, “You know, I play that as a single reel. I’ve never heard it double.” Or not, if you know you will get a lecture on why you’re way is wrong and their way is right. In that case, you just play along.
3) I hold up a coaster and shout “yellow card!” at the offender.
4) Listen and play what they play
5) If it really gets on you, play that tune next time you see them, and play it correctly, by your lights. Jump on that tune every time you see them for a year if you have to, just to get it into their head.
1. ) One of my favourite people for sharing tunes and dance with, a fiddler, was erratic with his repetitions, and that included repeating the same tune later in the night. I ‘always’ just followed his lead. He was suffering dementia, and it was evident in his dancing as well. It did get progressively worse, and then we lost him. I miss him. I’d give up a lot to have him back to play music with and dance opposite, however he needed to take things. He used to sometimes get mad at me when I was getting it right, not thinking, music or dance, but I didn’t mind and always gave him time and patience. At his best, and in a relaxed mood, the music with him was grand, but even in the repeats. However, I rarely let hiim play for dancers… 😉
2. ) There’s where you need a group who know the tunes and can carry them despite the lost ‘one’. They will either have to follow or stop. Maybe they’ll then realize they’ve been making a hams of it and ask for directions, help. But, help can always be offered diplomatically before it is requested. But the sooner the better. Like a bad habit, if you let it go on and on it will be more difficult to deal with, and for them to change, as such can become ingrained, like any bad habit.
3. ) That close a repeat, you just don’t join in, lean across and say, we’ve just played that. But, refer to #1 above. I wasn’t alone in giving our friend extra consideration, the whole community were kind and understanding. They are, in general, a lovely bunch. There was the occassional visitor who wasn’t as understanding, but they weren’t to know the situation…
Would that I were always patient, including with myself…
We had one piano accordion player that kept starting tunes they couldn’t play, with all reeds going and bass and chords and an awful choppy rhythm. They’d even interrupt news or a chat to impose their selection on the rest of us. But you couldn’t follow him, he was that bad, and he was too loud to work past. In the end most just didn’t join in. I stopped trying to follow him. It was painful. I guess in the end maybe he started hearing the mess he made of things. He stopped coming. None of us told him to f’k off, but he may have taken the lack of participation in his abuse of music as meaning the same thing. His pushy ways and lack of consideration for others, and lack of ability with the music, are not missed… In this case his absence is probably a case of group responsibility.
I did try, quietly and aside, to tell him to go easy and quiet with the reeds, and to lay off on the bass and chords, and to ease up on his need to start tunes whenever there was a pause, but he just brushed me off and I gave up…
And, also painful, in general he couldn’t just sit and listen, even if he didn’t know the tunes being played, which was usually the case… ‘Not Knowing’ didn’t mean he didn’t have some idea at times about the notes that made up the melody, but he couldn’t hold his own with it, and the stumbling along, on a very loud piano accordion, with bass and chords going, was just too much…
We had a nice little volunteer session at a famous beat tavern here in SF back in the late 80s… and it lasted a couple of years before it fizzled out. The owner loves Irish trad and said he would support it if he had the proper license, but all he could offer was a bottomless pitcher of beer. That was great… for a while… but eventually too many nights went by where people managed to travel to the pub only to find themselves sitting alone or with another player or two that weren’t strong enough players to get the momentum going.
The session at our local Irish pub, where anchors are compensated financially by the publican, started around the same time and are still going strong. That same pub started out as a volunteer session in the mid 70s, but it fizzled out too for similar reasons until the owner revitalized it by offering to pay the anchors. Both of these pubs had in common owners who loved Irish trad and wanted sessions in their pub. Only one of them accomplished that. What did we learn here?
palethinboy, I feel sorry for you that some people make you sick with their stuck up elitist attitudes.
However, I’m heartened to read of the subsidence of your sickness as your kind and tolerant self agrees that the right attitude towards “less accomplished players” is a reliance on the “powerful weapon” of “subtle ridicule”.
Did that make you “feel the freeze”? Are you gonna get your bodhran and go away now? Am I being subtle enough?
Partially agreeing with David Levine, those us of who have soaked up the tradition for a year or two, have something to pass on to beginners (and intermediates) by way of encouragement and repertoire.
Sometimes, we have success and a beginner carries on playing, unfortunately, some people never progress further in a decade. The oldsters have to be able to stop the session stagnating with a few tunes the slow-learners know and lots they don’t.
p.s. I am coming to Ballyvaughan - will be in touch regarding meeting up for tunes.
Nice one PB, and hopefully a publican or two might gain a wider view from that.
Nice on Geoff ~ ‘encouragement’, positive reinforcement, where it works, which is usually the case…
good point about people not progressing. I found last time out that one of the regulars said, “you’ve been practicing” which pleased me rather.
I still sit out at least half the tunes and avoid the rapid-fire Irish stuff for the most part, but I do feel I’m making progress.
As an aside, I find that for the more general sessions a 5-string banjo played frailing style is quite good because you can be quite quiet, quite easily, and still keep time or play drone notes for each phrase. The trick ( as someone else pointed out ) is to avoid the distinctive 4/4 “bump-ditty” phrasing for the most part
I’ve been trying to learn some tenor arrangements and again, with a 5-string tuned aDADE it’s quite simple to pick a tenor banjo arrangement provided it isn’t one requiring the low G string. Obviously this is limited but it’s something that can be done unobtrusively and without fiddling around with capos, changing instruments etc.
https://thesession.org/discussions/29261
# Posted on February 2nd 2012 by ceolachan
I’d forgotten to add a link to this other related thread, which seems to be on going… 😏
