Traditional in commercial music and industry?

Traditional in commercial music and industry?

I noticed recently that the music to the theme to MASH appears to be the same as the turn to the hornpipe ‘The Golden Stud’ raised up a whole step.

Is this a coincedence due to the limited nature of notes and chords in deriving melody and accompaniment, or more likely an awareness of traditional music?

A march that ‘c’ recently submitted reminded much of an airline commercial that I remember from my childhood. Are there other examples of traditional music in commercial industry?

I’m from the US, despite my last name and the priest that baptized me, so I probably should offer to differentiate at this point for sake of my socialization?

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

With only twelve semitones to choose from, and a limited number of combinations that sound harmonious, every new melody has some older one that sounds similar here and there…

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

I just received my copy of the book "A Dictionary of Musical Themes" per the suggestion of Trevor Jennings here, and am looking up various trad tunes to find out which proper composer they were lifted from. Or not. Hey, Father O’Flynn’s opening bar is found in Mozart’s Concerto in C, K299! Sort of. Up an octave. In C. In 4/4. And the rest has nothing whatsoever to do with FOF.

Also, your Stud tune sounds about as much like Suicide Is Painless as Iron Man by Black Sabbath, which btw I always thought would make for a rousing clan march.

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

Though music-hall rather than Pure Drop, the Tyneside song Cushy Butterfield was adapted to advertise Newcastle Brown Ale:

"It’s a good beer, it’s a bottled beer, it’s the North’s biggest sale -
For complete satisfaction, drink Newcastle Brown ale!"

(It’s bottled, but the rest is a bunch of brazen untruths. I wonder if they ever got done.)

Anyway, the song’s theme and tune were lifted from the Cockneys.

Still in musical outer space, there’s The Swedish Rhapsody (now in the Tunes section) which I learnt by ear from an ice-cream van in Langley Park near Durham in or around1980. ceolachan here told me what it was. The ice-cream van did not teach me how to play it, however.

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

"The ice-cream van did not teach me how to play it, however"

Then you might have lost the nuances of the tune, as well as camaraderie and wisdom of socializing with the ice-cream van.

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

All melodies are memes, and they all stem from one source meme that was originally dissonance followed by consonance.

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

That might be a nice little simplification, Earl. Except that there is overwhelming evidence that what we *hear* as dissonance has changed over the centuries. So, thirds were originally dissonant. (Actually, most of them stil are. πŸ˜‰ )

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

I think it was fifth and fourths that were originally dissonant. Thirds and sixths are the original consonants.

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

consonances?

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

Er … your second is right. The only consonances were considered to be the unison, octave, fifth and fourth, in that order. I think what’s important, though, is that it wasn’t just theory - that’s how people actually heard them.

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

Mind, I suppose it depends what you mean by "original" …

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

In the Common Practice Period. when western music writers shifted from writing strange marks on paper to the refined western music we know of today. The CPP includes the Renaissance and the Baroque periods. Musician’s in Bach’s time were huge fans of thirds and sixths but fourths and fifths were thought of as dissonances.

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

I’m not sure that the difference between ‘then’ and ‘now’ was down to people hearing intervals differently, but more to the way they tuned their instruments. In any temperament other than equal, some or all of the fifths are imperfect and can sound dissonant, even to the modern ear.

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

No, I don’t buy that. All of the fifths are imperfect in ET, and most people can hear that even today. That’s why orchestras, string quartets and the like don’t play in ET.

Again, it depends what you mean by "then" and also by "now". ET, and discussion of it, has been around since the 17c, and it was the commonly accepted standard in the 18c, certainly for keyboards, and even for other instruments for a lot of the time, because of the prevalence of accompanying keyboards tuned in ET (or close to ET). Have a look at Quantz’s writings (among others) if you don’t believe me.

And musicians in Bach’s day, especially Bach himself, definitely didn’t think of fourths and fifths as dissonances. I think you may be thinking of music of a time long before Bach, Earl (but still not so early as what I thought, incorrectly, that you were referring to by "original"). By the time of Bach, the only intervals thought of as dissonant were seconds, sevenths and the augment fourth/diminshed fifth. As always, Wiki does a reaonable job of outlining the story, though not with enough detail for my liking:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissonance_(music)#Dissonance


But hey, this is such old ground that it’s been trodden flat (pun intended) around here.

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

Actually Ben, although they have been talking ET for centuries, according to Duffin its only with the advent of modern equipment that they are actually getting it! . Previously they aimed at ET but practically ended up with various Well tempered scales. ( yes as you say its close to ET, but …..).
Also according to Isacoff, as far back as the 13th C thirds were being used and they are used in the Robertsbridge Manuscript, a 14c work.
cheers

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

Oh, absolutely, "according to Duffin". But you’ve got to remember two things about him:

1) He has a very distinct bias and personal agenda. His career depends on him bending historical ‘facts’ to suit his theory;
2) Nobody else agrees with him. (Well, no professional academic, at any rate.)

I really like the Duffin book, flawed though it is. But you have to take the bits that he uses to support his pet theory with a very large pinch of salt. Read Barbour (if you can stay awake!) for a more scholarly look at tuning, since I know that you’re interested in this stuff.

The thirds thing is a continuum, I know. But the fourths and fiths thing isn’t. For a fairly brief period ot time (kind of the 15c really, and maybe bits of the 14c as well) they were considered dissonant. Never before. Never since. People sometimes gets confused about the fourths thing, because they can be used, suspended, to form part of an actual dissonance, arising out of consonance, which then needs to be resolved. In short terms - the use of the suspended fourth.

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

There is a somewhat earlier example of thirds in mediaeval music in the Hymn to St Magnus, written for the dedication of his cathedral in Kirkwall in the middle of the 12th century. I’ve got it in ABC in the modes tutorial on my website.

It seems like thirds-based harmony was mainly confined to Britain and Scandinavia for much of the Middle Ages. It only spread south in the Renaissance.

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

‘Then’ being the renaissance and Baroque period that were under discussion.

Bach wrote on a keyboard tuned in meantone - the thirds were prefect, the fifths weren’t. That is a far more rational explanation to why he favoured thirds and sixths than that people heard things differently then than now.

And the idea that they avoided fourths and fifths is completely wrong. Lutes and viols were mainly tuned in just intonation, with perfect fifths and imperfect thirds. If you look at renaissance and baroque lute music, the chord shapes used are the same as those used on the guitar today - fifths abound.

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

There’s much discussion as to what Bach’s temperament was. Certainly, not all of the thirds could have been perfect - it’s just as much a mathematical impossibility as having all the fifths perfect. The consensus, borne out by Bach himself, appears to be that he used one of the systems of "well-temperament", a sort of modified, adjusted, meantone system. In this system, there were as many compromises in the thirds as there were in the fifths and fourths. Inevitable really.

Seriously, try Barbour. A right rollicking good read it is. πŸ˜€

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

I have Barbour but too many feckin numbers! πŸ™‚

Just intonation is perfect thirds perfect fifths and lutes are one of the oldest’ fretted ‘instruments to be based it ET as far as |m aware.

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

Interesting about lutes. I thought that Duffin mentioned them … Anyway, wherever it was that I read it, I hadn’t realised until recently that they *weren’t* tuned in ET. In fact, that was one of the reasons for having moveable frets (which they used to have, I gather).

Don’t blame you about the Barbour. I have read it all. Honestly, and quite sincerely. Every table. I’ve even tried to understand each one. Bet you’re impressed now. πŸ˜€

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

I just looked that one up on Amazon - ‘ethical’, I’ll assume that’s J. Murray Barbour? The cover for this one looks similar to a print from woodcutting of the metallurgist from ‘De Re Metallica’ that my father kept at his office.

‘Jack’, and I thought the saltarello (14c) was old!

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

Yep. J. Murray Barbour. Essential reading if you’re into tuning systems, but a real challenge to get through. It has to be the hardest read of any book ever.

Re: Traditional in commercial music and industry?

Every table! ok Im impressed. πŸ™‚ Wasnt relevant for my interests, Im trying to get my head around the physics of conical air columns. Im more hands on by nature , theory is of secondary importance in this game its always trumped by practice!
Like you Ben , I like to get into the finer detail.

Id be interested in who argues contrary to duffin and what evidence they have as support . …….

Ben what are your thoughts on the introduction to Dr Reimans Harmony simplified? are you familiar with it? if not I bet its just up your street.
http://docentes2.uacj.mx/museodigital/teoria/Teoria_musica_2/Riemann%20Hugo_Harmony%20Simplified.pdf


It took me a while to get my head around it but I like his ideas.