ABC notation - testing the limits? 😏 Help!

What I’d like to notate isn’t quite what follows, but seems the only option, playing a long d while alternating D & F under it ~

M: 3/4
L: 1/8
| [Dd-][Fd-] [Dd-][Fd-] [Dd-][Fd] |

What I really would like to do, and it’s not the first time I’ve been faced with this, is to show that long d6 as a single note with the stem going up, over DF DF DF with their stems going in the opposite direction, down. Can ABC notation do this, or any other similar variations on double-stops, rather than just two equal note intervals and chords?

Neither of these attempts/fudges work | (d6DF DF DF) | & | ([d6D]F DF DF) |

Any help, even if disparaging, such as "Give up! It can’t be done.", is welcome… 😉

I’ve tried to do that in the past but couldn’t work it out. There is most likely a way to do it. The only thing I’ve picked up that might help is a way to write 2 staves with V1 and V2. Check out the abc in the comments section here https://thesession.org/tunes/11968#comment642680

There’s some info here about merging staves and altering stems up/down http://www.barfly.dial.pipex.com/multivoice.txt but it’s way too complicated for me to cope with, lol.

Thanks Dow. It’s double-stopping, so ideally I want it on the one stave. I’ll check out the barfly link and see what’s up. For it to be ‘decent’ ABC notation, it should be something simple, not complicated… The greatest value of ABC notation is its simplicity, in my mind anyway…

This is actually about a promised submission with additional transcriptions to add to the comments, all the one tune, or related to it… I may just add the basic melody line and discuss the double-stopping in the comments, but I’d love to be able to add some of it in notation…

You could always just notate the double stop on the first note only and put in a comment that it’s a held drone.

This kind of works, but ~ | ([d6D]F DF DF) |

I gather you mean ~ | ([Dd]F DF DF) | ~ with comment…

you need to use the V:1 and V:2 tags
ex
V:1
d6
V:2
DFDFDF

Ok, this works but it is not necessarily the most correct or elegant way. Actually the method of doubling a temporary voice onto a stave with it’s own stems is quite elegant, but It requires breaking to a new line and I’m trying to find a better way to link the two lines together so we can view the standard four bars per line. This the code that I started with in order to get the two voices together. I used abcexplorer and the %%vskip o line tells the renderer that we don’t need to specify any notes for new voices up to this point (my understanding of this is poor). The %%score {(A B)} says we want two voices {A B} but we also want those voices to appear on the same staff (A B). I used sweets of May because it was already open and I’m lazy like that.

X:2
T: Sweets Of May, The
M: 6/8
L: 1/8
R: jig
K:G Major
[V:A]|: d2 c |\
[V:A]BAG AGF |\
%%vskip o
%%score {(A B)}
[V:A]G2 G G2 A | BcB GAB | c3 d2 c |
[V:B]G,6
[V:A]BAG AGF | G2 G G2 A | BdB cAF | G3 :|
[V:A]|: G2 A |\
[V:A]ABA A2 G | E2 F G3 | ABA c2 d | e2 d c2 B |
[V:A]ABA A2 G | E2 F G3 | ABA c2 B | A3 :|
[V:A]ABc |\
[V:A]d3 d3 | D3 D3 | c3 c3 | D3 D3 |
[V:A]G2 D G2 A | B2 A B2 c | ded cBA | G3 GBc |
[V:A]d3 d3 | D3 D3 | c3 c3 | D3 DEF |
[V:A]G2 D G2 A | B2 A B2 c | ded cBA | G3 |]

This however is not displayed by my abc.js plugin installed on my google chrome browser, which makes me very sad.

and this version will display four bars per line in abcexplorer but I’m not sure if it’s correct or if I just got lucky here.

X:2
T: Sweets Of May, The
M: 6/8
L: 1/8
R: jig
K:G Major
[V:A]|: d2 c |\
[V:A]BAG AGF |\ %%vskip o \
%%score {(A B)}
[V:A]G2 G G2 A | BcB GAB | c3 d2 c |
[V:B]G,6
[V:A]BAG AGF | G2 G G2 A | BdB cAF | G3 :|
[V:A]|: G2 A |\
[V:A]ABA A2 G | E2 F G3 | ABA c2 d | e2 d c2 B |
[V:A]ABA A2 G | E2 F G3 | ABA c2 B | A3 :|
[V:A]ABc |\
[V:A]d3 d3 | D3 D3 | c3 c3 | D3 D3 |
[V:A]G2 D G2 A | B2 A B2 c | ded cBA | G3 GBc |
[V:A]d3 d3 | D3 D3 | c3 c3 | D3 DEF |
[V:A]G2 D G2 A | B2 A B2 c | ded cBA | G3 |]

I used this discussion to guide my attempts at doing this. You’ll notice I didn’t have to do anything to force the stem direction.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/abcusers/message/3135

redundant voice declarations are not necessary

X:2
T: Sweets Of May, The
M: 6/8
L: 1/8
R: jig
K:G Major
|: d2 c |\
BAG AGF |\ %%vskip o
%%score {(A B)}
[V:A]G2 G G2 A | BcB GAB | c3 d2 c |
[V:B]G,6
[V:A]BAG AGF | G2 G G2 A | BdB cAF | G3 :|
|: G2 A |\
ABA A2 G | E2 F G3 | ABA c2 d | e2 d c2 B |
ABA A2 G | E2 F G3 | ABA c2 B | A3 :|
ABc |\
d3 d3 | D3 D3 | c3 c3 | D3 D3 |
G2 D G2 A | B2 A B2 c | ded cBA | G3 GBc |
d3 d3 | D3 D3 | c3 c3 | D3 DEF |
G2 D G2 A | B2 A B2 c | ded cBA | G3 |]

that last one displays with abc.js though incorrectly.

This displayed correctly in abcexplorer without the %%vskip o

X:2
T: Sweets Of May, The
M: 6/8
L: 1/8
R: jig
K:G Major
|: d2 c |\
BAG AGF |\
%%score {(A B)}
[V:A]G2 G G2 A | BcB GAB | c3 d2 c |
[V:B]G,6
[V:A]BAG AGF | G2 G G2 A | BdB cAF | G3 :|
|: G2 A |\
ABA A2 G | E2 F G3 | ABA c2 d | e2 d c2 B |
ABA A2 G | E2 F G3 | ABA c2 B | A3 :|
ABc |\
d3 d3 | D3 D3 | c3 c3 | D3 D3 |
G2 D G2 A | B2 A B2 c | ded cBA | G3 GBc |
d3 d3 | D3 D3 | c3 c3 | D3 DEF |
G2 D G2 A | B2 A B2 c | ded cBA | G3 |]

Oh yes and you can’t play the midi file for this, so I would recommend you only do this after the melody is completely set and you no longer need to listen to the abc2midi for error checking, or keep two separate versions.

Oh, ignore everything above this. the "&" symbol works better and is simpler to use. It works just as if we are writing two voices in the same measure, and is much more preferable for our purposes because it is specified on a per measure basis.

X:2
T: Sweets Of May, The
M: 6/8
L: 1/8
R: jig
K:G Major
|: d2 c |\
BAG AGF | G2 G G2 A & G,6| BcB GAB | c3 d2 c |
BAG AGF |\
G2 G G2 A & G,6| BdB cAF | G3 :|
|: G2 A |\
ABA A2 G | E2 F G3 | ABA c2 d | e2 d c2 B |
ABA A2 G | E2 F G3 | ABA c2 B | A3 :|
ABc |\
d3 d3 | D3 D3 | c3 c3 | D3 D3 |
G2 D G2 A | B2 A B2 c | ded cBA | G3 GBc |
d3 d3 | D3 D3 | c3 c3 | D3 DEF |
G2 D G2 A | B2 A B2 c | ded cBA | G3 |]

X:1
T:voice overlay example
M:3/4
L:1/8
K:D
DF DF DF & d6 | EF EF EF & c6 | DF DF DF & d6 | AE AE AE & c6 |

However it doesn’t work so well when the second voice is above the first….

It appears the order which you specify the voice overlay matters. The first voice will have stems up and the second will have stems down.

X:1
T:voice overlay example
M:3/4
L:1/8
K:D
d6 & DF DF DF | c6 & EF EF EF | d6 & DF DF DF | c6 & AE AE AE |

That works in Easy ABC Earl, but not in ABC2mid or ABC Navigator. Thanks for sorting it out 🙂

Here is a version with a whole tune. I didn’t include ties here because I’m saving it for my next post.

X: 1
T: Maids Of Mitchelstown, The
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
R: reel
K: Ddor
| D2AG EGG2 & x6 G,2 | (3ABc Gc cAGE & x2 G,6 | D2AG EGG2 & x6 G,2 | AcGE EDDC |
| D2AG EGG2 & x4 G,4 | AcGc cAGE & x2 G,6 | D2AG EGG2 & x4 G,4 | (3ABc GE EDDC |
| EGAB c2AG & G,4 E4 | Adde f2ed & x2 D2 A4| cAGE F3G & x4 A,4 | (3ABc GE EDDC |
| (3EFG AB c2AG & G,4 E4 | Adde f2ed & x2 D2 A4 | cAGE F3G & x4 C4| (3ABc GE EDDC |

Yes it’s an abcm2ps feature that doesn’t work on programs that are using a different underlying program, I think. abc explorer is built with abcm2ps so it works. It doesn’t display correctly with my abc.js plugin installed in google chrome. The overlay will just be displayed in the measure as if the "&" symbol wasn’t there, with the note stems in autodirection, so in the case of the Maids of Michelstown they will point up because they are below the or low on the clef.

so you can use ties just fine with this method. They will display how you intend them, but the midi playback will just repeat the note. This isn’t a huge deal. I found you can cheat the midi player by making the note’s value play across the line (and not using a tie) but this causes an error with the next overlay in the tune so it basically doesn’t work.

You basically can’t use the midi playback to check how your ties sound, say if you are adding double stops to sheet music late at night before an early lesson or practice and you don’t want to wake the whole family by getting your violin out.

I would perhaps just forgo using ties anyway as they make the music look too busy and it’s good enough to just have an understanding that the string rings until it naturally dies out (where a tie actually suggests otherwise anyway).

And yes these are double stop notes that a fiddler would likely add, I would use different double stop notes on the concertina for example ( I would hold out the one of the low notes that starts the melody instead of adding a low G).

X: 1
T: Maids Of Mitchelstown, The
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
R: reel
K: Ddor
| D2AG EGG2 & x6 (G,2 | (3ABc Gc cAGE & G,2) G,6 | D2AG EGG2 & x6 G,2 | AcGE EDDC |

and triple overlays won’t work (perhaps if you wanted to more accurately show that two strings were ringing at once, which start at different points. You could perhaps use a combinations of the two techniques I explored in this thread to create this effect.

It’s the least I could do for ceolachan, who has posted so many great abc tunes on this site, which I have benefited from for years.

ABC explorer does in fact use abcm2ps, and it also uses abc2midi. I am surprised it doesn’t work with that program because the program I’m using uses it.

One of the most wonderful things about this site is that the Earl Cameron’s can meet the ceolachan’s and I have a front row seat.

I say this with total affection. But you do know you are both a bit insane, right?

Carry on.

I may be insane. I think it’s interesting because I used to use programs like Finale to read and write sheet music on the computer for years before I discovered abc. Through using abc I have discovered that I have another passion in life than music; programming. So now I’m studying web development and it may get me a decent job at some point in my life. I encourage the crazy because I believe in the end, it pays.

I love it… All this homework waiting for me. Thanks Earl. I should have mentioned, I need it to work on site here, the reason for starting this thread here… 🙁

With the half dozen or so notation programs I’ve got on hand it’s not a problem, like with Sibelius for one. But, I was wanting to do it with ABC notation, as ‘double-stops’, and on the one staff rather than as two separate voices / staves. But this gives me some other things to consider and mull over. There isn’t much already on site in this realm, other than notes in interval or chord of the same time value [ ~ ]…

I think I’ll need a aspirin before I go back into all you’ve given Earl, but - the time given and the effort, both are much appreciated. I was asking to be ‘stretched’. 😀

I wish I understood programming better, and had a hand on it, but then ~ I suspect I’d be in worse trouble than I already am, and I’m not sure my dear wife would stand for too much of that nuttiness fidkid refers to. Mind you, we do generally have a good store of nuts on hand ~ peanuts, cashews, pecans, almonds, pistachios ~ damn, I forgot the pistachio ice creammmmmmmmm… 😉

In all sincerity, Earl, I think enthusiasm like yours adds so much to this board. It’s one of the reasons I come here.

Just look at the last full tune I posted. I believe it has everything you need to do what you want within the scope of most things.

Here’s a good solution using "staves" (about the same as "score") and some other useful things:

X:3
T:test
M:4/4
L:1/8
K:D
%%staves (1 2)
V:1 stem=up
d8- | d6 z2|x8|d8|
V:2 stem=down
%%stemdown
DF DF DF DF |DF DF DF DF|DF DF DF DF|DF DF DF DF|

1) Notice the stem=up and stem=down as part of the voice definitions. Obviously you can use these as needed. Take them out and watch measure 3.
2) Notice the x8. x is a hidden rest so the blank in measure 3 of voice 1.

I like to do things with the staves command because you can leave it out and get things right on separate staves and then combine things afterward. I find that easier to use than the & business for combining lines. Different strokes for different folks.

Tested on EasyABC and should work with any up to date version of abcm2ps. I can’t speak for ABCExplorer

So here’s something I’ve been looking to do lately for some students that have come from a classical background and are having trouble wrapping their heads around a cut/tap when it’s written as a grace note…. I want to write a grace note with an x (like a ‘ghost’ note) instead of a dot to show a cut or tap as opposed to a grace note? I was hoping one program or another would work with something like AB{x}BA instead of AB{c}BA but haven’t found one yet - any help?

"Just look at the last full tune I posted." ~ Earl Cameron

??? 😏 ~ "Fitchrona" ~ C: Earl Cameron
Submitted on December 13th 2009 by Earl Cameron.
https://thesession.org/tunes/10106

Interesting idea for ABC notation b.maloney…. I like it…

No, in this thread

Thanks for everything, appreciated…

You’ve had me experimenting, and enjoying your contributions too. I’m about to see if this website can deal with some of the suggestions, the easier ones, like using the ‘&’ that Earl used above, which is a ‘simple’ solution. I’ll experiment more until something looks right and then I’ll submit the tune this is about, and we’ll see how it turns out. The problem with the intended submission is that there are several other transcriptions to add to the ‘comments’, also using double-stops, but I think those are of equal time value, simple equal intervals, so shouldn’t prove any problems… Again, your time and help is much appreciated.

The ‘&’ is basically similar to previous fudges, doubling the bar size, 3/4 becomes 6/4… I will have to attempt the more complicated options, or just do as has been suggested, go simple and mention it in the comments…

Using [V:A] & [V:B] & %%vskip o / %%score {(A B)} results in the same thing as using the ‘&’. I think I will go with the later anyway, and explain the results in the comments, or ~ … 😀

Thanks for the Barfly link Dow, still playing with ideas there…

Good luck with that lol

Submitted on June 24th 2012 by ceolachan.
https://thesession.org/tunes/12014

It’s the 3rd / C-part of this six part waltz that was in part the reason for starting this thread…

It doesn’t double the Bar size. Here is a reel with a metre of 4/4 with default length of 1/8. every measure is written as normal, but the & symbol specifies the beginning of that measure for the second voice (whose stems will face down). It is harder to edit and work with because you can’t write the voices on their own lines unless you use a lot of backslashes and only write a measure per line. I had a lot of fun writing this simple tune and making the midi actually sound cool with voice overlay for double stops.

X:91
T:Belle View
M:4/4
L:1/8
K:A
%% midi voice instrument = "22"
|:efg & B3|\
afec A2 AB & A4A,2E2|cBAc BAFE & A,2E4D2|FA (3AAA ABce &x2D4E2|feaf ecfg & x2A2A2E2|
| afec (3AAA AB & A6E2|cBAc BAFE & x2E4D2|FA (3AAA ABcf &x2D4A2|eBcB A & B4A:|
|:cde & x3|\
feae feae & A6A2|bac’a baeg & A6B2|afec BAFB & x2A4D2|cB (3BBB B2 (3efg & x2E4E2|
| afec (3AAA AB & A6E2|cBAc BAFE & x2E4D2|FA (3AAA ABcf &x2D4A2|eBcB A & B4A:|

sorry it was my intention to put a space on both sides of every "&" that way it is easier to see where the overlays are for editing.

Yeah, that works out nicely, and if the voices are the other way round, the long notes up on top, as here, the 3rd part of the recent submission "Victoria Valse" ~

u(3ABc |\
(DF D.F DF)&d6 | (EA E.A EA) &c6 | (DG D.G DG) & B6 | (DF D.F DF)&A6 |
(DF D.F DF) &d6 | (EA E.A EA) & c6 | B3 (A GE) | D4 ||

For that I think I’d use the & approach too….

Then it should be the other way, to make the d6 stems go up they have to be written first.

u(3ABc |\
d6 & (DF D.F DF) | c6 & (EA E.A EA) | B6 & (DG D.G DG) | A6 & (DF D.F DF) |
d6 & (DF D.F DF) | c6 & (EA E.A EA) | B3 (A GE) | D4 ||

It forces the stems for the whole measure, so if you are using a double stop for half the measure and want the stems for the other voice to switch directions for half the measure, you have to trick it. Say if I’m trying to write down some of the buttons I like to hold out on the concertina? I usually hold out certain notes in the melody to make double stops with later notes from the melody. The notes that I hold out might be at the top or the bottom of the melody, so I have to get creative and flip the voices around to make the stems go back to normal, as I did in the second and fourth bar here.

X:1
T: Maids Of Mitchelstown
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
R: reel
K:Ddor
%%midi voice instrument=22
| D2AG EGG2 & D3 x3 x2 | (3ABc Gc c2x2 & x2G2 cAGE | D2AG EGG2 & D3 x3 x2 | xc3 EDDC & AcGE x4 |

@Earl

That what separate voices with stems =up or stem=down in the voice definition solves. That is also the reason that using %%staves and those definitions is more flexible than the & approach.

Thanks you lot, much appreciated… I’ll give the various suggestions made a go, though too late for the submission here. I should have waited, but I’ve half a dozen related associated transcriptions to finish. And as they include people I’ve known and have great respect for, my heart is more there than for the book sourced transcript. This will help me in future, but the double-stops involved in the recordings are all equal, so not the problem raised here. I’ll continue to experiment.

However, personally still suffering brain fry, worry and lost sleep, can you both more clearly define and explain those additions ~

%%midi voice instrument=22

%%staves

And a couple more examples would also be welcome, if you would…

Again, thanks for the help.

Oh the %% midi voice instrument you can ignore, I started experimenting with that at the same time as the multiple voices. It basically says to use the harmonica sound for midi playback for the current voice (because a voice id is not specified).

I just like to post my whole header whenever posting abc online because it’s easier to cut and paste if your program doesn’t automatically generate headers, and it includes the title key and metre, so you don’t have to go back and type that stuff manually.

@cboody. I don’t think the %%staves with stem direction definitions is the same thing as the particular example I was showing. I was showing how you can use the "&" technique to make the stems for a voice switch direction on the fly, in the middle of a measure. So for one half of the measure, the first voice has stems down, and the second voice has stems up, and then for the second half of the measure the voices switch stem direction. It’s not something you would use much for fiddle double stops, but very useful for accordion players who hold out certain notes and want to communicate it in writing.

The %%staves definitions are probably more stable and it appears so far that it works better across different platforms than "&" but I think "&" is more flexible and user friendly provided you are using a platform that recognizes it.

if %%staves works on abcm2ps it should work on abc explorer because abc explorer runs on abcm2ps. It also works on the abc.js plugin which makes me like it more than %%score which doesn’t

Got what you mean on the stems direction Earl.

%%staves is essentially the same as %%score. Slight difference in syntax I believe. (You can say: %%staves (1 2) to put voice 1 and voice 2 on a single staff, but I believe you must say %%score [(1 2)] to accomplish the same thing with that command. Is that enough explanation?

Thanks again. I was ‘old school’, learned ABC notation before it became an ascii code, and then I relearned it as it had developed for the computer. In the ‘old way’ the comma was a mark beneath a capital letter, the apostrophe was over the top of a small letter. To show length, instead of numbers, you underlined the note, three underlines being a dotted note. I quite like the changes, but I’ve not really got into it as a computer code, though following the norms of that now. It is something I would like to know more about,but with any such desire on my part to understand, I prefer direct contact, living sources…

As yet I still use ABC notation in the old way, like on beer coasters and scraps of paper, and here too, though I also have a lot of it saved in digital form. I did try several ABC programs when they first came out, actually, half a dozen, and the put me off it all together. They were pretty awful, especially in converting ABCs to dots. I’ve tried to get the big programs, Sibelius and Finale, to develop plug ins so I could use it with them. But, so far, no luck… This is where I wish I knew enough to do it myself.

Again, thanks ~ ‘c’

you want to write your own abc program? me too. I like using ABC much more so than programs like Finale or Sibelius. abc explorer is my favorite program so far, although it has some bugs. If you write bad code it has an instant rendering feature so it can crash the program while you’re in the middle of figuring out a more advanced technique and you’ll have to start over. abc.js is a really nice program for making nicer looking sheet music but it isn’t fully developed for advanced options in my opinion. It really takes years of experience in programming to write a decent abc program so maybe I’m almost ready.

Those looking for the good abc program try EasyABC in its latest (and soon to be even greater) version. I think you’d find it quite useful and flexible and essentially bug free.

Thanks for the temptation… My curiosity usually gets the better of me.

Hopefully I am not the self-serving, simpleton that some people take me for (and this is not a hissy-fit or any other sort of fit)….

Colin Hume uses U(pper) & L(ower) voices on one stave (treble) in his piano arrangement of his own tune "Cascade". The upper voice tails point up; the lower, down. The piece also has the bass clef.

Please see

http://www.colinhume.com/abc.aspx?T=Cascade:_Piano_Score

(which should all be on one line, but my computer has now split it when completing this comment box; so I hope the link works)

I amended this arrangement of ABC notation for my tune "Streak", a jig with an A4 Pacific chime (whistle) in the B music (Colin said "how cute", by the way). Tune is available through my website.

Would this arrangement help?

Of course, you may have it sorted by now!

All the best and good luck

Peter Jenkins

Sorry chaps and chapesses, my last post didn’t display much & only the whinge bit shows without clicking "more" - what I hope is useful(?) appears later..

I will learn from this and either keep the whinge for later (or perhaps, not whinge at all).

Again,

All the best

Peter Jenkins

Submitted on June 24th 2012 by ceolachan.
https://thesession.org/tunes/12014/comments

With thanks, it worked for a spell, but it may require more uses of the V: designate? U, L & B?

Check my comments at the tune above….

I needed the ampersand technique the other day to write some double stops for the Scottish tune Farewell to Fiunary. This might be a bit busier than what I end up playing but it is a good example of where you want the chords to have different time values that the melody notes. I’m pretty proud of this. Note that some of the chords in square brackets are only a single note, it just makes the resulting abc easier to read in abcexplorer because it’s easy to tell the voices apart because everything in square brackets is colored in blue. The double stops are meant for a fiddle to drone below the melody.

X: 1
T: Farewell To Fiunary
M: 3/4
L: 1/8
R: waltz
K: Gmaj
|: D2 |\
G4 B2 & [D6 G,6] | d4 B2 & [D6 G,6] | A4 G2 & [A,6 D6] | F4 A2 & [A,6 D6] |\
B4 E2 & [B,6 E6] | E4 F2 & [B,4 E4] [B,2 D2] | E4 D2 & [B,6] | B,4 D2 & [G,4] [B,2] |
E4 F2 & [B,4 E4] [B,2 D2]| G4 A2 & [G,4 D4] [A,2 D2] | B6 & [G,6 D6] | d4 d2 & [B,6 G6] |\
e4 e2 & [G,6 G6] | d4 B2 & [B,6 G6] | A6 & [A,6 F6]| G4 & [G,4 G4] :|