The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

I’m trying to find tunes which flow like The Dawning Of The Day.

It has a march like beat… with a 4 beat crotchet feel in each bar.

Ive looked at polkas and barndances but neither have the same flow and rhythm.

Is this tune a one off in its ‘song like’ 4 beat march feel? Or am I missing a whole category of tunes that are similar?

Cheers
K

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Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

I honestly don’t even understand the question.

Try Scottish 2/4 marches?

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

Its a tricky one to explain … for me anyway!

I could have asked it like this …

Anyone know any tunes like ‘Dawning of the Day’ that have a march like feel with ‘4 crotchet beats in each bar’.

Cheers

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Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

Hey Prof Prlwytzkofski …I have it up again because I’m specfically looking for march type tunes which have 4 crotches in a bar (or 3 crotches and 2 semi-quavers) so you would tap your foot naturally on evey crotched beat.

‘Marches’ on this site dont seem to fit, neither do ‘polkas’ or ‘barndances’ (per se) into this rhythm.

So I wanted to know if DOTD is a ‘one off’ in its construction.

(There is some debate in the comments section of Dawning of the Day whether it should be in 2/4, 3/4 or 4/4).

So I was hoping the time signature bit was cleared up or someone had some marvelous insight into the ‘type’ of tune/march ‘Dawning of the Day’ is specifically…. does it fit typically into a certain tune criteria or its a ‘one off’.

As you know reels nearly always have 8 quavers in each bar, jigs have 6 etc but marches don’t seem to follow any typical pattern. Thanks for the question having explained it better this time… I now understand the issue better myself. πŸ™‚

k

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Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

Yeah, marches.

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

DrSilverSpear ….’Marches’…. yea theres different types… thats like saying…. ‘jigs’.

When there are Double Jigs, Singles Jigs, Slip Jigs , Hop Jigs, Slides etc.

So is anyone aware of different ‘types’ of Marches? …or is it a case of just trawling the marches and seeing what there is? (not possible on this site)… as no specifically designated ‘types’ of marches have been categorised
in Irish Dance Music as of yet.

Thanks

K

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Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

Sounds like a great start for a joke ‘Four crotches walk in to a bar..’

πŸ™‚

Posted .

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

There are plenty of tunes on the site that fit into the op’s parameters rhythmically, but they are not categorized in a manner that makes finding them easy. They could be polkas, or marches, or barndances (or others) in this database.
Two simple examples might be ‘Roddy McCorley’ and ‘The Foggy Dew’

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

Sorry for the redundancy redundancy. Should have looked at the link above by pro p
Oops

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

grossly over-analyzed

match it with something like Roddy McCorley, Britches full of stitches and the like

Kind of a early player piece, so you probably want to make the set match the skill level that it is intended for.

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

sorrry. cross post!

😏 Duh!

First, it might do you some good to LEARN marches, as obviously you’re clueless… LISTEN!!! MARCH!!! LEARN a few from those that do understand the form… In your limited view there will only ever be one "Dawning of the Day", as your understanding of marches seems limited to that one melody, which is a shame. You’re missing so much. It’s a bit like someone thinking there’s only one kind of potato in the world and it can only be served as mash, and nothing else will do. Well, loving potatoes as I do, and having grown them too, I know the endless varieties there are out there, as well as all the many possibilities for preparing them for consumption. But, if all you want is King Edwards and mash, there’s not really much else we can do for you. Best of luck with your limitations…

"reels nearly always have 8 quavers in each bar, jigs have 6"

Maybe taking up typing would be a better occupation than this music? ~ and maybe to a metronome where you can choose which straight jacket you’d prefer to type to ~ like and emphatic and inflexible 4/4?

If it is this music that really has hold of you, then I think you need to get out more…

AND ~ leave that damned dots alone and go out and LISTEN - LISTEN - LISTEN - LISTEN - educate your ears, not your eyes. There are loads of good marches to listen to out there. Maybe, hopefully, some they’ll get through that King Edward mash and you’ll actually start to gain some understanding. We can but hope…

"With Fife & Drum: Music, memories and customs of an Irish tradition"

by Gary Hastings ~ includes a CD and sheet music for 72 fifing tunes. And, since you say you’re in Belfast, no shortage of marches in the North, why not try to chase up some lessons with the man himself, Gary Hastings, who can definitely set you straight on marches, if you’re able to ‘listen’ and take it in…

Best of luck, seriously wishing you the best, feeling sorry for anyone that’s gets stuck in such a rut of ~ …

Two other Northern flute players who are well familiar with marches are Harry Bradley and Cathal McConnell…

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

Danni -
I know and play often with this young lad, ( Kess / Kevin ) don’t know why he’s into this stuff maybe experimenting ???

But you should here his Flute playing with Reel’s and Jig’s.
S^!T Hot,,, And I just hate the way he make’s it look so Damed Easy πŸ˜‰
Must Record Him - jim,,,

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One off? ~ as if… 😏

Thanks Jim, I trust your ears, but there are a slew of folk out there that can play reeis and jigs with loads of diddlin’ fancies and are clueless about everything else, and in this case it seems obvious that where marches are concerned, this one hasn’t a clue. So, suggesting they go to those that do is the best I can offer. We’ve given them comparable tunes to "The Dawning of the Day" but they weren’t able to see that, or hear it. However, it’s not like folks don’t get blocks and walls in the way of their understanding. If they can’t find the march in the tunes we did suggest, then they obviously haven’t the experience or the ears to breath life into thos tunes with understanding. My only other suggestion would be to get off their duff and do some marching - to all the many and varied key signatures that can drive that activity. πŸ˜€

In full kit and with at least a 75 lb. backpack of course. πŸ˜‰

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

%%beginrant

Clueless or not, a mere four days is a short period of time to expect someone to begin asking less questions & suddenly come out understanding everything they just read on a discussion forum.

%%endrant

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Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

Yes and your right there Danni , My playing of Slow Air’s is rather more that just suspect, lol. And also true I’ve never really left those reel / jig’s etc, alone enough and concentrated only on Slow Air’s.Which is the only way I’ll ever play them Kinda ,Right !
I never do things by Half’s : (
Anyway young Kevin is playing Flute ( BTW, Which I want to play at First ) Exactly how I only dreamed of playing it way back then.
But, what get’s me about him is, He pick’s up Banjo’s, Guitar’s Irish Pipes, and dose the same thing with them.Now he is at the fiddle and asking questions on that. ’ I fear my day are Numbered ” - LOL.. Having said all that, if he is Experimenting in other Tempo’s, ( Marches, Barn-dances, is Three’s & Twos ? ) * I’d Say Danni you are the very man to put him Right !
jim,,,
jim,,,

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

Slow news day.

Where’s Llig to put a stop to this?

Is "The Dawning Of The Day" the only true march in the world? πŸ˜›

Yes, where is he? I’m a poor second… πŸ˜€

Ben, it is different when someone just writes it all of as not ‘marches’ and is fixating on just the one melody as the ultimate example, don’t yuh think" 😏

From Jim’s testimony this is obviously a talented soul and hopefully they’ll get through their brick wall, or manage to climb over it and see the variety of scenery that lies on the other side. Mind you, as already said, seeking direct help, not the damned dots, is still the best way. There are many fine players of marches in the North, both sides of the divide…

And part of the joy of playing marches is the fun one can have with rhythm. These too do not wear a straight jacket well…

Seeking direct help

"…this is obviously a talented soul and hopefully they’ll … see the variety of scenery …"

ceolachan, if Kess is as fixated on one melody as he maybe seems isn’t it curious to yourself that he asked, "So is anyone aware of different ‘types’ of Marches?"
As soon as I saw that question I wanted to answer it myself. But I was hoping someone who has been playing marches many, many, many, many more years than myself could provide a much better response.

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Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

I think the next step is for ceolachan to provide some audio of his playing, of said specific marches, to enhance his very valid points πŸ™‚

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One off?

"So is anyone aware of different ‘types’ of Marches?" ~ see the original thread, and then take note of the title for this thread… If anything it all these two threads read more like a wind-up. As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water ~ but ~ …

There are many great recordings to be had of marches and I would always, as I have, direct folks that way before me. But, I have always been willing and able to teach someone one-to-one a good march and how to have fun with it, as I have done in the past, while also directing them to good listens for further inspiration… πŸ˜‰

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

Well I think there’s to many Bl**dy marches in the North, both sides of the divide…lol.
But you have to Experiment As Gerry O’Connor ( Fiddle ) told me year’s ago in music ” Try Everything ” And he even joined a C&W band to prove his point for a Year : ) I think I heard Kevin playing two Lambeg tune’s once in our Wednesday Night Session that he drops into regular..I use to love to play ’ The One Road ’ sometimes down south,but I wouldn’t play it around my home town of Larne. ; )
But to Finnish and conclude ( I’m starting to get like Danni Here ) - lol.. I always know Kevin as a very much an Ear Player and surprise’s me to here him say < reels nearly always have 8 quavers in each bar, jigs have 6 etc but marches etc > Hope he hasn’t Converted to the Sight Reader’s - lol.
jim,,,

But ~ that’s if one-to-one the chemistry was right too, which mostly it has been, with rare exceptions. In those rare instances of incompatability I’ve always offered options, if I know of any, other people or methods they might approach that might be more in synch with their particular needs or ways of learning or hearing… πŸ˜€

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

Lots of polkas become good marches when you play them at 120BPM with a pronounced hup two three four rhythm. Thinking of songs I know, the Minstrel Boy and Wearing of the Green both make nice solid marches.
And I have a friend who learned Dawning of the Day when he was young and marched in an accordion band—I had encountered it as a song first, and hadn’t realized it was so well suited for such use.

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One off?

Yes Jim ~ as already said, they should chase up the local talent and learn one-to-one, by ear. That’s what I’ve done in the past, always my first choice when seeking knowledge and understanding, preferring live sources to anything else, going direct…

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

No Ben, I didn’t say I thought it was a wind-up, or why bother eh?

Good to dance to! That is if you know how, and we do…

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

< always been willing and able to teach someone one-to-one a good march and how to have fun with it, >

I think this is the Right answer to Teaching All of Traditional Music’s, Sadly this approach is at a loss now.
And why Styles even at a County Level are ’ all but disappeared ’
jim,,,

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One ofr?

"Ive looked at polkas and barndances but neither have the same flow and rhythm." ~ Kess

Don’t blame the melody or the category…

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

Ben < If this is a windup don’t take the bait >

No he’s a Quiet Big lad, Deep Thinker, but dose not hold back,
If he thinks he has to Speak up. I just dropped him a message on Facebook there, to get here a put his Ore in : )
jim,,,

""Tom McHale: All Ireland Whistling Champion At Boyle""

Track 1: "The Centenary March" / "Hynes’ March"

Brilliant, clear, winds, in this case the whistle…

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

The Dawning of the Day - One of the first marches I ever learnt in a fife and drum band in the early fifties. Then I heard a singer singing the words and realised it was lovely old song. In later years Patrick Kavanagh wrote a poem called Raglan Road and someone put the air of ‘The Dawning of the Day’ to it. Luke Kelly sang it and the original Dawning of the day faded into virtual obscurity. Incidentally in the fie and drum band we use to follow the Dawning of the Day with Down by the Sally Gardens, The Old Rustic Bridge and Maggie. All well known songs but they all make great marches.

"The Dawning Of The Day"

Marches come in moods too, including in how they are played, from funeral purposes to weddings, peace and war, love and hate, winning, losing, gain and loss… Learning a bit of percussion can definitely help, as too any experience with marching bands. Marching and playing simultaneously is priceless, a bit like patting your head with one hand while rubbing your stomach with the other. Good ears, open listening, that will do you well.

Laments are often treated and played in the way of a slow march. We’ve played marches for marching, for dance, for celebration, as part of mourning, for laughter and tears. They are played in church and at graveside for loss, in memorium, and too for celebration, a respect for a life shared and lived fully. Having known the many colours of marches I have a high regard for them. They also do amazingly well early on as part of the introduction to learning this music, in coming to terms with it in all its variety, with a steady heartbeat, mastering tempo, something to relax into a steady beat with, and to also learn and understand that drive that rhythm can have, and with growing understanding the possibilities of playfulness and variety in that integral element to this music, rhythm, rhythms, pulse, beat, the heart in it.

It often does us better to remember the child’s mind and to just accept some things to start with, and then, later, to start questioning it, when there’s some experience behind the asking. When you have a room full of children and you ask them to march, the readily do, with laughter and joy in it too. When you have a room full of adults and you ask them to march, there will usually be someone that will want to know why, and then they’ll start to analyse it before they’ve even given it a go. "Which foot do I start on?" You could be showing them marching yourself and they’ll still want to know how high? ~ how far? Those that are caught up in that analysis are inevitably off time, and too often lack any humour or laughter, can’t find the craic for the analysis.

I’m speaking from personal experience of my own limitations. I prefer the child’s approach to it, that craic, but I have had moments of being stuck in the analysis. Yes, analysis can also be fun, but I prefer to start with the child’s approach to learning, being open, giving a thing a try without worrying about making an ass of myself. The analysis can come later, maybe over a pint with people you’ve shared the experience with, or with the person guiding you, instructing you, keeping the humour going, being able to laugh at oneself and with others. That too, a sense of humour, is an important part of ‘tradition’ as I know it and have experienced it. And that connection to the heart, the beat, that too is important and so much a part of what makes marches tick, literally…

"The Dawning Of The Day"

As with Free Reed above, it’s also one of the first marches I ever learned, along with some of the recommended others mentioned in the earlier thread, and played together in sets too. Some well known folks like Cathal MCConnell teach it as a matter of course, and Cathal has even included it in the recordings and book he put together for Homespun Tapes ~ "Irish Pennywhistle".

http://www.homespuntapes.com/
"Cathal McConnell Teaches Irish Pennywhistle"
http://www.homespuntapes.com/Instruments/Flutes-Whistles/cathal-mcconnell-teaches-irish-pennywhistle

It has also been among the first few tunes I’ve taught beginners, along with those other marches already mentioned in the previous thread…. With each person I get a chance to share it with I’m learning all over again, listening to their ways with it. I’ve also played it with Cathal and many others. πŸ˜€ There used to be a lovely little gathering where we played tunes from both sides of the Northern conflict, Catholic and Protestant, and there were songs thrown in too, but marches were common, in the singing too. It was great fun, though we did have some big bruisers come in and lay into us for mixing it up.

Whatever you do with this aspect of the music, the tradition, have fun, enjoy, play it up… And do your damnedest not to let the concrete of your mind settle and set. Keep things flowing and open as much as possible.

Hup, 2, 3, 4
on your right, on your right, on your right, left, right

~ and you should hear all the different marching ditties there are out there, some of which are quite lewd, more lyrics too, bawdy included, and raw, and there’s also plenty of laughs too.

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

I was taught to start on the left foot, but then that was in a Highland Pipe band.

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Re: The Dawning Of The Way / The Tao of Marching

with your left, with your left, with a left, right, left…

Left for dance usually too, for the gent anyway… πŸ˜€

A highland pipe band, cool!

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

That Tempo sound’s like something I’ve heard around Here,
To the drum, to the drum, to the Lam-beg drum πŸ˜€
jim,,,

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

Thanks for all the replys guys…. passion lot arn’t you? πŸ™‚

Jim you were right I am experimenting with rythym changes and wanted to look at what results I’d get altering other tunes like DOTD, thats why I was being soooo specific. Didnt realised Id upset folks. πŸ™‚

And for the record ….I know its not the only good march… I play a bunch of others and while DOTD isnt my favourite it works with the well with the experiment.

Lastly I not sure in all that above anyone really answered my original question ….is there different ‘categories’ of marches?

I’ll take it there isnt… or people dont know, I think there should be though and they are handled with as much care as other tunes like Jigs.

God Bless you all!

Kess

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Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

Marches are generally "categorised" according to their time signature, at least in Scotland, where they are much more common than in Ireland. I have a book called "Bain’s Directory of Bagpipe Tunes", published in 1983 in Edinburgh. It lists the following categories of march : -

Slow marches
2/4
3/4
4/4
9/8
12/8
2/2 - only 1 - "The 100th Psalm"
6/4 - 3 examples, including "Farewell To Nigg".
5/4 - only 1, the fairly well-known "Cullen Bay"
15/8 - !!!! Must look that one up - only 1 example, "Delco Highland Games", which I’ve never heard of .
6/8

There are 119 pages of tune titles listed, and 46 of those pages are marches, so that’s quite a significant percentage.
Hope that might go somewhere to answering your question.

PS - the "Dawning Of The Day" is listed twice as a 4/4 march, and Highland bagpipe settings can be found in "David Glen’s Collection Vol.11", and a collection of tunes by "The Royal Irish Rangers".

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Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

Great Kenny!

Thanks for the info and taking the time.

K

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"….is there different ‘categories’ of marches?" - Kess / Kevin

Duh!? The problem is that we kept answering that part of your query but you weren’t able to make any sense of what was being said, or so it seems… Also, if you bothered to do a search on marches in the ‘discussions’, and you explored the ‘comments’ under different marches, such as 3/4 timed marches (one ‘category’ by time) and 6/8 marches (another ‘category’ by time), you’d find out about other ‘categories’, such as ‘advance’ and ‘retreat’, etc. Also, there are many find players of marches on this site, also with fife and drum corp and piping experience there. However, you seem unable to clearly make your point, format yoru question, which we’re generally avery patient with, but asking the same basic thing twice, with little difference and no greater clarity, won’t earn you further patience. After awhile it’s like we’re wasting our time, or, more precisely, you’re wasting out time or winding us up.

Also, if you had actually bothered to follow some of the suggestions made in the previous thread you’d started on this subject you’d have also seen that the whole thing of shifting time signatures is nothing new, aside from the sometimes playful nature in which marches can be treated in the playing. You’d have found that some marches/songs are known in more than one time signature, more commonly a 2/4 or 4/4 march/song that is also used as a waltz, 2/4. And many polkas have an earlier life as marches…

If it’s experimenting you want, well, there’s plenty of folk on this site that enjoy that too.

And then there’s the experience and knowledge of folk like Kenny, who has given you more on the whole idea of time signature ‘categorization’. Others also categorize them by time signature, and there’s also a general practice of lumping 4/4 and 2/4 together. There was a general practice in the past of notating them in 2/4 time, which is very black, ink dense, while nowadays there is a tendency to notate the more notey marches in 4/4 time.

For more marches to experiment with, and not unknown in the North, you can always chase up copies of "Kerr’s Collection of Merry Melodies", which comes in 4 parts…

"Reductio!!!"

It’s not magic, or ‘rocket science’, but ANYTHING can be turned into a march. AND, anything can be simplified to the point of the simplest bersion of "The Dawning of the Day", ANYTHING! It’s often what marching bands to, to simplify in order to make it easier to get in the grove and stay there. AND, ANYTHING can be turned to 2/4 - 4/4 time, easily…

The Dawning Passion - A Lot of?

Yes, Kess. But what are the different ‘types’ of passion? πŸ˜‰

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‘bersion’ ~ and I wonder if we can give that some special definition, a variant or bariant of ‘version’?

Tune type

Funny thing about cataloguing the *Tunes* section on this site. The data has a fixed definition of tune type (as it’s called in this system). Each ‘tune type’ requires a time signature, & only one.

When someone submits a tune she or he selects a tune type. That determines the time signature; reels are 4/4, polkas are 2/4, jigs are 6/8, slides are 12/8 …
But this system is only necessary for the original submission of a tune. Although it does mean marches cannot be submitted as a *tune type*. When marches are submitted they appear in a tune type search as polkas, reels, jigs, slip jigs, or waltzes. (Confused yet?) Hopefully there is information about the tune in the comments section.
If you’re interested in a tune read the comment.

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… The datavase has a fixed definition of tune type …

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Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

Think of tunes like beautiful flowers. πŸ˜‰

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Like flowers

Living wildflowers, not cut flowers sitting in a base.

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Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

Why are you so angry ceolachan?

You sound like a nasty person!

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Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

πŸ˜€ No! But I do find some people irritating, especially if they ask and people generously answer but they appear to be too thick to make good use of the information provided…

" too thick" more often equates to being ‘too lazy and disinterested to bother’…

Re: The Dawning Of The Day - A One of?

Would that be "uninterested"? πŸ™‚

Re: The Setting Of The Way - an A-One PITA!

That too, but then why ask twice if that’s were the case? πŸ˜€

I trust Jim that the lad has substance, but that in the end wasn’t enough to make him not a pain in the asp… That said, I still have hope that something might have gotten through, though I also have my doubts, considering everything… πŸ˜€