Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I outlined some of the changes that are coming to The Session here:

https://thesession.org/discussions/30604

Have a read through that if you want a refresher on what changes are coming.

Now I’m happy to say that you can see some of these changes in action. I’ve put together a beta test site for you to try:

http://beta.thesession.org/

Some things to note:

1. The test site is not using live data: it’s using a snapshot of The Session as it was yesterday. Any submissions or comments you make on the beta site will *not* appear on the final site. So don’t go overboard updating any inaccuracies you come across—wait until the site goes live.

2. I’m still making changes and I might do another reset/snapshot of data from the current site, so be prepared for breakages.

That said, I’d really like it if you could take beta site for a spin and see how it feels. Here are some tasks you might try:

Finding sessions near you.
Updating session information.
Browsing popular tunes.
Adding your own setting to an existing tune.
Editing the track listing of a recording.
Adding your location to your member profile.

You get the idea. But like I said, don’t get too carried away because any updates you make on the beta site won’t be carried through when it goes live.

Let me know what you think. If you have a smartphone or tablet, give it a whirl.

Barring any major stumbling blocks, maybe the new site could go live as soon as next week. Exciting!

Anyway, give it a go. Flip back and forth between the current site and the beta site. See how it feels after a few days.

If you have any feedback (or bugs), leave a comment here. Thanks.

http://beta.thesession.org/

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Hi Jeremy,

Just one from me - but take it as just being a personal thing - I hate Serif fonts on the web, and also (on Firefox at least) somehow the text seems to take up more space. The net result of both of these is that the page looks nice but it’s slightly less easy / quick to read a long thread.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Thanks, Mark. The text *does* take up more space. The font size is larger.

Yes, this does mean that less text is squeezed onto a screen, but on the plus side, the larger size should be a lot more readable.

Give it a try for a few days and see if you still feel the same way. I suspect that the smaller type size here on the old site will start to feel too small.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Jeremy,

It all looks very good indeed, but I think you should use different font colours to differentiate between headers such as ‘Recent Activity’, users’ names and discussion titles.

Posted by .

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Hi Jeremy

I’ve only had a brief look so far, but I don’t see headings for "Links", "Members" or "Shop".

Is this intentional?

Mix

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

That’s right, Mix.

There is still a "members" section but I’ve decided that having a link to the index page of the members section in the main navigation wasn’t necessary: usually you want to go straight to a specific member profile.

I don’t think anyone was using the "shop" part so I’ve decided to ditch it. If anyone really misses it, I can reinstate it but again, I probably won’t put it in the main navigation (a link in the footer would do, I think).

The links section has worked very well for a while now so I’m going to just drop it entirely.

Again, if anyone feels very strongly that the links section should remain, I can reinstate it (though not in the main navigation). I’d be interested in hearing people’s thoughts on this.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

My only initial response is the same as Marks above. I really don’t find Serif fonts easier to read. I’ve not problem with the increased size of the font, but find Sans Serif much easier on the eyes, personally, and possibly more so when there’s a strong contrast like black against a light and lighted screen backdrop..

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Fair enough about the font thing - I’ll give it a try.

For the "add a session" could there be a field for postcode or whatever the equivalent is outside the UK? I realise that Ireland doesn’t have them, but they are really useful when you are travelling to a new one and need to enter something in the satnav!

I’ve noticed that many sites which rely on embedded maps (businesses included) tend not to have the actual postcode anywhere, which means that you have to interrogate the map or the venue website to find out what it is. That would be a useful thing to prompt us to do.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Hi Jeremy - me again - thanks for the reponse!

I do agree that the "Shop" section is of little value, but I feel that it would be a shame to loose the "Links" section.

Regarding the loss of "Members" section, how would you now search for a specific member? It would especially useful if you could search for members in your home town (or maybe in a town that you might be visiting).

A couple more observations:

1) Why do you need a "display password" option? I haven’t seen this feature on any otrher website that requires a login. But if you really do need this option, shouldn’t hiding the password be the default?

2) In session details, is the telephone number supposed to be the contact number of the session organiser or the contact number for the host establishment? This isn’t clear on the old site, and it’s no clearer now.

Mix

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Hi Jeremy (again)

Just spotted your neat solution of using concertina.net to auto-generate sheet music and midi from submitted abc.

But what would happen if concertina.net is ever taken offline?

Mix

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Like it

Tune searches

I like the general look and feel, however, I am missing some search options, or at least the no longer seem obvious? In particular ~

* searching for key signatures

* searching for tune types

& one I would love to be able to do ~ to search by bar count or parts ~ 16, 24, 32, 48, etc…

Duh! The drop down menu for tune types is still there… I need more sleep.

&, I forgot to mention, the tune selection at the bottom:

Popular jigs, reels, slip jigs, hornpipes, polkas, slides, waltzs, barndances, strathspeys, three-twos, mazurkas.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

The new site looks great!! The only thing I have to say is that you no longer have the option to just save your entire tune book in sheet format, I found that really useful, but I guess I could just paste the whole ABC file in concertina.net ;)

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Well, it turns out you can’t do that hahaha but well, I guess not that many people here used that function, I’ll still miss it though!

Recordings

Interesting that there’s a separate link to these lists for tunes. It still would be very welcome to make corrections there, to disconnect and connect where there isn’t or is an actual recording associated with a tune. That would raise the value of that segment of the database considerably.

There is some lovely added value in the new way, such as with the ‘Popular Tunes’ section…

I still find that serif font a bit blobby…

Nice work Jeremy…

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Can’t see anything on my iPod. Link takes me to segpub.net.
What’s that about?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

how do I find the popular tunes list?

Posted by .

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I just get segpub when I click the link. I’m using chrome.

Posted by .

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Looks fine to me.
Haven’t tried it on my mobile yet.

Posted by .

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I only get segpub as well.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Andy, click the **TUNES** tab at the top of the page & scroll … below the *Newest tune settings* & *Newest comments*

Posted by .

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I’m using firefox and just get segpub too.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Some good feedback here. Keep it coming.

A number of people have mentioned the (serif) font choice as being troubling. I understand it’s quite a change, but try living with it for a few days and see if you still feel the same way. Sometimes these things take time to get used to.

Mix mentioned the use of concertina.net for generating sheet music. Actually, that’s just the fallback. Most people (I’m hoping) won’t ever get that: instead the sheetmusic is generated for them in situ. (For the geeks amongst you, it’s using SVG which means nice crisp sheet music)

If you are arriving at concertina.net when you click on a "sheet music" button, I’d be interested in hearing what browser you’re using.

Mix asked: "Regarding the loss of "Members" section, how would you now search for a specific member? It would especially useful if you could search for members in your home town (or maybe in a town that you might be visiting)."

Well, that’s something that’s going to be better handled once people are adding their locations to their member profiles. I haven’t added the "find nearby members" functionality yet but it is coming.

Mix also asked "Why do you need a "display password" option? I haven’t seen this feature on any otrher website that requires a login. But if you really do need this option, shouldn’t hiding the password be the default?"

Excellent question. My answer is "no". Hiding the password should not be the default. For more info, here’s a great post from Luke Wroblewski:
http://www.lukew.com/ff/entry.asp?1653

ceolachan mentioned the inability to search tunes by key. This is a tricky one. On the one hand, I can see how it’s useful (find jigs in D major or reels in G major) but in a lot of cases, the key isn’t necessarily all that accurate e.g. A dorian vs. A minor. Does anyone else use the "key" dropdown when they’re searching for tunes? I’d really like to find out how people are currently using the site so I can make better decisions about what to add and what to take away.

For the people seeing the segpub.net site when they try to get to http://beta.thesession.org/ sorry about that: my host seems to be having issues with even the most basic functionality of serving web pages. I should really move hosts: Segpub are pretty awful.

Malena mentioned the option of printing your entire tunebook as sheetmusic. I’ll definitely look into that but it’s become a little trickier now: each tune might have multiple settings so the sheetmusic could get quite lengthy.

Keep the feedback coming. It’s all very welcome.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Well I’m no longer getting segpub; just a ‘this site is not configured’ message. Is this progress?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

thanks Ben obvious really just couldn’t see popular tunes..not looking hard enough
I like the look of the new site …I find the font easier to read once I get used to the layout
keep up the good work jeremy

Posted by .

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Looks very good.

It is clever (I hope its clever rather than laborious) to have taken the ABC code from the comments for tunes. But it seems that the T: fields in the original have not been retained but have been changed to the name of the main entry.

So will we lose track of which alternative names (or different renderings of the same name) go with which version ? The information is still there in the comments, along with C: fields etc. but it hard to find.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I like it quite a bit, particularly the tune features—print, play, midi, abc, all in one place.

One thing I don’t understand though is why the discussion search always shows results in what appears to be random order, chronologically speaking. Is it showing by relevance or some such? I’d love to have the choice as to how the results are displayed.

The font doesn’t bother me. A lot of sites use serifs these days, it seems. and If i need it bigger I’ll hit Ctrl++.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

How does the settings thing work? Only because looking at say an example of a tune I posted, it only takes the one setting when there is another in the comments.
http://beta.thesession.org/tunes/11682

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

How do you now search for sessions on a given day of the week ? by City/Town etc..

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

SmashTheWindows, I’m not sure why your setting in the comments didn’t get added as a setting. When the site goes live, there might be some more examples of some settings falling through the cracks like that. Worst case scenario, you can always add the setting by hand but I’ll see if I can tweak the algorithm that pulls out settings from comments.

Theirlandais asked "How do you now search for sessions on a given day of the week ?"

It’s true, that functionality has been removed. I was thinking of maybe making it part of the text search i.e. to find sessions on Mondays, make sure your search term ends with "on monday".

Theirlandais also asked "by City/Town etc.."

Just enter the city or town in the search field.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

David50 asked "So will we lose track of which alternative names (or different renderings of the same name) go with which version ? The information is still there in the comments, along with C: fields etc. but it hard to find."

The alternate titles are associated with the tune as a whole, rather than with any specific setting of that tune.

fearfeasog asked "One thing I don’t understand though is why the discussion search always shows results in what appears to be random order, chronologically speaking. Is it showing by relevance or some such?"

Yes, it’s supposed to be by relevance.

"I’d love to have the choice as to how the results are displayed."

I’ll look into that.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Nice work Jeremy, much appreciated.

As to fonts, I’m a fontoholic, and that includes having worked in printing and publishing, and I’ve just a greater fondness for Sans Serif over the old Serif faces and its kind, like the favoured font of newsprint ‘Times New Roman’. It wasn’t so much created because it was ‘easier to read’, but because the type set in the trays better, self-centering with all those damned feet, the little added bits at the end of every line. :-D But the mythology of ‘easier to read’ persists. It’s not big thing though, but I actually find sans serif fonts easier to read, especially on a screen with light behind the black print.

For the laugh in it, Cuneiform is a kind of Serif font and Ogham is a kind of Sans Serif. But please, don’t resort to either of those as a choice.

Just to repeat the only thing most in my mind I’d like to see is to do with the recordings section, to be able to confirm those connections, and to remove those that aren’t correct, and increase the value of that bit of the database.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Nice work. I like the look of the new site although it takes a bit to find your way around. I am sure we will all get used to it quickly though. I don’t have any problem with the new font at all.

I like the way you are displaying the tunes now with the better quality sheet music. Would it be possible to introduce an option to hide the sheet music again once you have generated it or even to collapse different settings? I would imagine, in cases where there are many different settings, this would make it easier to navigate.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Hi, Jeremy. It’s pretty! The feature where I can correct a submission and immediately see the corrected ABC is great. I also like being able to correct typographical errors in alternate names. There are plenty of them to clean up!

On my 1440x900 screen, the sheet music is generated to the right of the ABC and partly cut off. (Firefox) There is no scrollbar at the bottom to bring the sheet music fully into view. I have to ctrl- until the text is uncomfortably small in order to see the music.

I like the font choice.

When searching for tunes, I’m finding it difficult to tell which entries are just renames. They are not necessarily grouped together and the search returns the best matched name in a way that it looks like a different entry. On the old site, search also showed the date the tune was entered and I used the date to weed out duplicates.

Personally I’d find it a lot more convenient if I got only one link for a given tune with the main name and a list of alternate names (and maybe my search terms highlighted in the alternate name list).

I’m not seeing an edit tag when I edit a post on the discussion board. Not having an edit tag is a real problem because it leads to a lot of confusion and misunderstandings.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I also miss the Members section. It seems to be a lot harder on the new site to find individual members.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Personally I don’t like the serif font, the font size or the increase in white space. They make viewing the site on my laptop a pain as I spend all the time scrolling.and makes using the site on my Nexus 7 even worse.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I agree with goldfrog about too much white space and scrolling, particularly in the discussion section.

Oh, also will there be an RSS feed for the discussions? I would really miss having the new message topics in my reader.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

What concerns me Jeremy is that I put ABC for a tune into the comments giving the name that it had in a historical source and it ends up with the T: field having the name the first person to add it to the database used rather than the name that went with that setting.

No big deal in my case, only half a dozen tunes, but some people have taken the trouble to add to comments hundreds of good transcriptions with good provenance information.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

ElaineT, yes there is still an RSS feed for discussions. The URL will be different but I’ll make sure there’s a redirect in place.

"On my 1440x900 screen, the sheet music is generated to the right of the ABC and partly cut off. (Firefox) There is no scrollbar at the bottom to bring the sheet music fully into view. I have to ctrl- until the text is uncomfortably small in order to see the music."

I’ll look into fixing that.

"I’m not seeing an edit tag when I edit a post on the discussion board. Not having an edit tag is a real problem because it leads to a lot of confusion and misunderstandings."

I’m not sure what you mean by this. Could you clarify what you’re expecting to see?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

"I’m not seeing an edit tag when I edit a post on the discussion board. Not having an edit tag is a real problem because it leads to a lot of confusion and misunderstandings."

Presumably a "This post has been edited" or similar - as per Facebook etc.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Hi Jeremy,

Looks fantastic. What a great update. So many things I like. Love the new settings thing and the SVG music.

I’m ok with the font change, though I personally would prefer some sort of clearer divide between posts in the discussions/comments. When reading the long discussions, I find it quite hard to differentiate one post from the next - there’s a lot of space in the text so the space between posts isn’t quite enough for me, and the title font of each post isn’t quite different enough either. A faint underline after each post would probably do it for me if that wouldn’t destroy the aesthetics too much.

I notice when we put tunes in our tunebook it doesn’t link to a specific setting. Would that be possible too? I might not remember in 2 months which setting of a tune I was thinking of learning. There seem to be pretty URLs for settings but no easy way to get at them (to link to them).

It would be really nice to have a user profile setting that made the default for the tune pages to render sheet music rather than the ABC (and a button to show ABC)

The tune submission page still doesn’t have all keys available for the tunes. Maybe a rethink needs to be done on how to use the tune keys. I notice above you said that, at the moment, key isn’t that useful because of complications like Am and Ador. Maybe if you could search by multiple keys it would solve this (so I could search for A minor *and* dorian). Also, if there were options for stuff like F#minor, we wouldn’t have odd tunes lumped in with the A major tunes which are still impossible to find.

On the session pages it might be nice to have how often the session runs (rather than just "Friday" - "Friday every week", or "3rd Friday of the month", etc.). http://folkjam.org/ do this sorta thing quite well. I guess a note saying that to mark the session as dead, just remove all the day ticks. It doesn’t then show up in searches - how would you resurrect it?

I’ve tested it on an HTC One X (Android 4.1) and it looks fine. I spotted one small issue with the SVG rendering on the phone and that’s the 1st/2nd repeat numbers seem too large. Doesn’t seem to have that problem on the desktop.

Couple of bugs in the desktop version (Google Chrome):
When you open the sheet music SVG, the listen and print buttons stop working; When you print the sheet music, if it’s longer than one page, it get split across the page break (here’s a page that I’ve just tried where this happens: http://beta.thesession.org/tunes/653)

Thanks for all the work. Looks great!

Dave

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

ElaineT also makes a great, great point with:

"When searching for tunes, I’m finding it difficult to tell which entries are just renames. They are not necessarily grouped together and the search returns the best matched name in a way that it looks like a different entry. On the old site, search also showed the date the tune was entered and I used the date to weed out duplicates.

Personally I’d find it a lot more convenient if I got only one link for a given tune with the main name and a list of alternate names (and maybe my search terms highlighted in the alternate name list)."

And I’m in agreement with ceolachan about the recordings section - it would make it so much more valuable.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

SmashTheWindows, ceolachan, the issue with directly linking tunes to tunes *in tracks* in recordings is a really, really tricky one.

That’s one of the reasons why it doesn’t say "recordings of this tune", it says "recordings of a tune *by this name*".

80% of the time, that’s good enough. For the 20% of cases where there’s a mismatch, it gets very, very, very tricky to try to come up with some programmatic way of correcting it.

I am aware of this issue. But given the difficulty in addressing it, I’m not going to be able to tackle it anytime soon.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

davedupplaw wrote "(Google Chrome):
When you open the sheet music SVG, the listen and print buttons stop working"

Hmmm… I can’t seem to reproduce this. Is anyone else finding this problem?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Forget my comment about the members section. I have found now how to search for members on the home page.

Any thoughts on my comment on rehiding sheet music or "collapsing" versions of the tune to hide them away? I imagine that would also help with others comments about excessive scrolling.

Looking at the discussion threads I do agree that the posts tend to blur into each other a bit. If more could be done to distinguish one comment from the next then that would be great.

I like Dave’s comment about selecting specific settings. It might be a bit difficult but if there was a way to select a specific setting (perhaps through a tick box) then that might solve that. The chosen setting could appear at the top of the list.

Meanwhile I like the gps/location options that you have introduced. Going into the session section I now have a list of sessions sorted by how close they are - nice! And I imagine this would be particularly useful for mobile devices when travelling to a new area.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

No cause for alarm wrote "I also miss the Members section. It seems to be a lot harder on the new site to find individual members."

Bear in mind that you can still search for members from the front page of http://beta.thesession.org/ — it’s one of the options in the dropdown list.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

No. I haven’t noticed any problem with the midi/print buttons stopping working. I have not tried the print button but the midi worked fine and I am also using Google Chrome.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Yes - thanks Jeremy. Spotted that.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Bravo! Lots of hard work. A few thoughts from the Mac (dark?) side:

1) on a wide screen (taking tunes as an example) The tunes come up with the latest discussions across from them…even though the discussions don’t seem to relate to the tunes they are across from. Same is true in discussions and other places I believe. I’d suggest something to separate the two things from each other.

2) Listen to a tune: Works on Firefox by putting up a play and pause button(and is about the only thing that does work on Firefox these days!). Puts up an empty block on Google Chrome which can be closed but not played. Puts up nothing but some sort of small blue icon on Safari.

3) Download MIDI: My system barfs on attempting to play the file unless you add the .mid extension to the file name. This could be my system, but I think is likely to be a problem for others. Also the file name came across as "Unknown." I’m quite sure the one I used had a name.

Font doesn’t bother me, though I prefer Sanserif in general. An awful lot of screen space is empty though. I wonder in the long run if that is a good idea. Lots of scrolling…

I’ll continue to look as time allows and comment.

thanks for the hard work.

(and for finding a way to keep the color that is much easier on the eyes!!)

Chuck Boody

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I just get "this site is not configured" when I click on the link.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Is there a way to delete versions of a tune that you have added?

In the tune, The Pink Flamingo (http://beta.thesession.org/tunes/7474), for example, when I submitted it I made a couple of errors in the submission. Now it is possible to edit a submission I will do so once the site goes live. I can’t spot a way of deleting inaccurate versions though. In this case it isn’t an alternate version of the tune. It is just a wrong version.

Thanks.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Oddly enough, with this tune I am now getting the problem with the tabs appearing at the side of the ABCs and the sheet music being chopped off on the right hand side.

This wasn’t a problem with the last tune I looked at where the sheet music appeared below.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

And also with this tune the midi doesn’t work where the sheet music has been generated - davedupplaw’s problem.

It only seems to happen when the sheet music is on the right rather than below the ABCs.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

The link for the beta site doesn’t work for me at all. It tells me "This site is not configured." It looks like Randy above had the same problem (hmmmm…..?).

I’m using Firefox on a Mac.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Another little quirk but, a while back you had some problems with sessions disappearing off the website. One of the sessions in question was The Fisherman’s Tavern in Broughty Ferry. It was originally submitted by Jamie and, when it vanished, it was resubmitted by Kevvyf. I see the Beta version of the site miraculously has both submissions. Is there a way to merge them?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

cboody wrote: "1) on a wide screen (taking tunes as an example) The tunes come up with the latest discussions across from them…even though the discussions don’t seem to relate to the tunes they are across from."

Are you sure you’re not seeing the latest *comments* in the tunes section?

Regarding the midi files, there are definitely going to be issues with some older browsers (and maybe some operating systems too). I’m using an out-of-the-box JavaScript plug-in to generate the midi files. I’ve got to be honest: midi files are definitely *not* a priority (remember I was planning to ditch them entirely).

To everyone making comments on the font choice and size, could you please give it some time? Try living with it for a while and see how it feels then. I appreciate all the feedback but kneejerk reactions to type decisions in a redesign aren’t going to be that useful if they’re based on less than 24 hours of interaction.

DrSilverSpear wrote "The link for the beta site doesn’t work for me at all. It tells me "This site is not configured.""

I’m still trying to chase down this problem with Segpub (the site hosts). I have no idea why this issue would be affecting some people and not others …and Segpub are being their usual uncommunicative selves on the matter.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I don’t want to sound too harsh, thesession.org is a great resource. But as a message board the "Discussions" functionality could be a lot better and is certainly lacking in functionality. Take a look here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=465
As a message board it works, easy to navigate, search, with all the functionality of a bog standard message board (and also admin functionality). The beta site has a wordpress template look about it (for a discussion/message board, I wouldn’t necessarily consider that a good thing).

The changes to the score rendering of tunes are welcome.

On the other sections, Events, Sessions, etc. there is a dashboard with New, Recent, Local etc. plus then you have the Search functionality. These are fine but they seem a small bit restrictive, it would be nice to browse these sections with more criteria, an example might be in the events section where the user might want to browse (not search) all events in Ennis in November.
It would be great if everything could be categorised/tagged. For example if all flute albums in recordings was tagged with "flute", a user could then browse based on that tag.
If you were starting from scratch with an undefined database schema would your UI still be the same?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I like it esp. watching YouTube inline and nearby sessions.

Listen and Download Midi don’t work for me in IE9. Putting IE9 in Compatibility View does weird things to the layout, buttons and menus disappear.

I second the above comment that the Tune Search needs to retain the submitted date in order to spot aliases - either that or just return the one tune in the first place.

Cheers

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I don’t know about anyone else but I use the midi everytime I learn a tune or just want to check it out..

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

The point about ‘tagging’ has been raised before. It would be great if that aspect of a database, and potential search options, was wider, especially for recordings. One subject raised previously had to do with musicians too, where a particular musician might have his own albums, but is also featured on other recordings, as a guest, or part of ‘various artists’. It would be great to be able to choose that as a search option, as too, just mentioned, by musical instrument…

No worries with the font issue Jeremy, San Serif is just a personal preference. Serif fonts are common enough in printing and online. For ages the standard font for Windows was ‘Times New Roman’, that old Serif face…

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Thanks for the feedback everyone but please bear in mind that I’m not looking for suggestions for *new* features to add; I’m looking for feedback on what’s there now.

Later on I’ll be soliciting suggestions for new features but for now if you could keep your feedback confined to existing functionality, it will make my work easier.

Thanks.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I think the new site looks cleaner, more professional and is easier to navigate. It’s a massive improvement and a pleasure to use compared to the old site! Everything I tried worked fine. Love the sheet music, love the ability to see sessions and events near by. I’m not a power user though, so I’m easy to please :-)

Thank you for taking the time and effort to do this, Jeremy. Looking forward to it going live.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

When I first logged onto the beta site this morning I enabled the abcjs plugin which places scores under the abcs. (Thank you Paul Rosen) Thus the ends weren’t cutoff. When I disable the plugin of course the sheet music reverts off to the side.

I don’t like all the space on the discussion page. It may look good on short discussions. But when I’m reading, & commenting, on the longer discussions it’s simply more scrolling to read the same amount. That’s not a knee-jerk reaction. I know what works when I want to read online with various forum setups. But it is pretty.

Thanks for the link about default settings for viewing password characters. It’s not bad to have the functionality for viewing or hiding the characters. Although reading in the article about lost passwords that has nothing to do with being able to see the password characters. And it too easily downplays the small bit of security hidden passwords provide. At this point I’m so well trained for entering various password combinations I’d simply prefer to have them hidden. So, that’s one more box I’ll be clicking ~ opting-out of the *default* setting.

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Midi wouldn’t play for me either - using Safari on a Mac.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

A bit too much white space, which requires a bit too much scrolling, is my first impression, but it does look a lot prettier than the current site. And it is more subtle in its use of color, but it can still be called the mustard board—a color scheme change might be too much for some of us to bear! ;-)

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

have not tried all the functions, but the look and layout and font of the new home page are very pleasing to me. i like the empty space and the non-frantic feel of it.

Feast your eyes on changes coming to The Mustard

There will always be the one & only Mustard Board. It is right here, right now. Anything else is After the Mustard, or Mustard Nuevo, or Would you have any Grey Poupon?

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session (on your mobile)

My curiousity got the better of me. Everything about the new design shouted ‘mobile’. So I rotated the beta & the new page layout makes a bit more sense.
http://www.rotateme.org/?u=beta.thesession.org&r=l
Is everyone with iPads or tablets doing that with the test model?

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I like the font — it’s more legible than the smaller font on the old mustard board, but the white space seems excessive, especially in the Discussions. It’s harder to retain the flow of conversation, when each post is a separate block surrounded by so much room.

That’s on PC with Chrome browser. I haven’t tried it on an iPad yet but I’ll do that tonight.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

To answer your question about post edits, Jeremy, a lot of boards start with "Posted on December 3rd 2012 by ElaineT" and then switch to "Edited on December 4th 2012 by ElaineT" if the poster comes back and edits.

Without any mention of edits, it can get quite confusing reading a thread if a post refers to something earlier in a thread that got edited out later. If the tagline at the bottom of the post switches to "Edited by" instead of "Posted on" you know that what people are referring to in a thread may have been changed.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I finally got through to the site.
It wouldn’t let me log in, and my password was written out as I was typing, which is a first for me.
There is too much white space.
The typeface is fine.
To have someone editing a tune on the home page seems a bit pointless, and…
‘their’ is plural, ergo ‘Michael edited their tune’ is bad grammar.
‘Upcoming’ is american slang — ‘coming’ is fine.
I don’t like it as much as the current layout, but then people think that change is good, which it is not always. I’m keeping my fingers crossed.

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

gam wrote: "There is too much white space."

Again, I would encourage you to try living with it for a while. After a week or so of use, I’d be interested in knowing if you still feel the same.

"To have someone editing a tune on the home page seems a bit pointless"

It’s a stream of all recent activity.

"’their’ is plural, ergo ‘Michael edited their tune’ is bad grammar."

That sentence doesn’t appear. It would say "Michael edited the tune [tune name]." But the sentence "Michael added [tune name] to their tunebok" would appear. Yes it is incorrect, but it sounds a lot better than the only alternative, which is "Michael added [tune name] to his or her tunebook."

"’Upcoming’ is american slang"

Citation needed.

"I don’t like it as much as the current layout"

Again, if you could try living with it for a while, you might feel differently.

Just to be clear on this, right now I’m basically discarding most of the feedback about fonts, whitespace, and colour: those are exactly the things that need to be lived with to be judged effectively.

But please keep all other feedback coming. And if, after a few days, you still feel the same about the fonts and whitespace, I’d be interested in hearing about it then.

ElaineT wrote: "Jeremy, a lot of boards start with "Posted on December 3rd 2012 by ElaineT" and then switch to "Edited on December 4th 2012 by ElaineT" if the poster comes back and edits. Without any mention of edits, it can get quite confusing reading a thread if a post refers to something earlier in a thread that got edited out later.

Ah, okay. Got it. Here’s the thing though: you’ll only ever be able to edit a comment right after the comment is first posted. It’s basically just a mechanism to allow people to fix typos without writing another comment just below it (the preview functionality should also help cut down on typos and crossposting).

You won’t be able to edit a comment you wrote a day ago, or even an hour ago. Given that restriction, I’m not sure that showing the edited time rather than the posted time would make much difference.

But we’ll see. If it leads to confusion in practice, I’ll certainly re-evaluate how comments are displayed.

Thanks for the clarification.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Ceolachan said above::

" I like the general look and feel, however, I am missing some search options, or at least the no longer seem obvious? In particular ~

* searching for key signatures

* searching for tune types

& one I would love to be able to do ~ to search by bar count or parts ~ 16, 24, 32, 48, etc…"

Hi Jerermy

I 100% agree with Ceolachan’s comments on search options. Extremely useful when compiling new tunesets.

And if you are playing for dancers (e.g. set dance, ceili, ceilidh etc) length in bars is critical - that’s why Ceol is suggesting the enhancement of having "a number of bars" parameter when searching for tunes.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Jeremy: "If you are arriving at concertina.net when you click on a "sheet music" button, I’d be interested in hearing what browser you’re using."

@Jeremy: Answer in my case:

Internet Explorer v8 (on Windows XP Pro + SP3 platform).

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

After attempting to beef up the mustard,
It now looks more like blood and custard,
It all looks so strange,
Can’t get used to the change,
Let’s hope it all gets re-adjustered.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Mix wrote: "Internet Explorer v8"

Thanks. That makes sense then. SVG support is in IE from version 9, so older versions will get redirected to concertina.net.

"And if you are playing for dancers (e.g. set dance, ceili, ceilidh etc) length in bars is critical - that’s why Ceol is suggesting the enhancement of having "a number of bars" parameter when searching for tunes."

Fair enough. Although this isn’t a feature that most people would use. I could look into having an advanced search page that exposes more options.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Not sure if it’s been covered above, but when I check my profile, it says I’ve submitted 49 tunes whereas it’d be 27 on existing implementation. Looks like it’s adding variations and different settings of a tune to ‘my list’.

Doesn’t particularly matter one way or the other, though would make it harder to look for something that way. Given Ceolachans industrial capacity for adding settings, his figure must be astronomical :)

Posted .

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Ah I see C has 3,867 tunes - sorry, not entirely relevant but does make this figure a bit meaningless, if it had any meaning in the first place?

Posted .

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Hi Jeremy

Thanks for your response. Presumably all IE8 users will need to upgrade to IE9?

Changing the subject, I’ve now found (and tried) the members search facility.

I used "ceolachan" as my test search string:

First four results returned as follows:

1) Donough
2) Dr. Dow
3) browndog
4) ceolachan

Why is this? (I think that the existing site has a similar issue.

Mix

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

"I’m basically discarding most of the feedback about fonts, whitespace, and colour: those are exactly the things that need to be lived with to be judged effectively"
I spent five years at college studying exactly those things. True, you can become accustomed to it, but it doesn’t make it better. There are such things as design basics.

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Jeremy,
On the whole "Editing point in your second last post." ElaineT is referring to "basic" functionality from any message boards worth it’s salt. If you only look at another message board and see the set of functionality you are missing. You really should consider customising an existing message board implementation and using that as the basis for the site, instead of reinventing the wheel.
Just look at your own post, you quote various people, but as a user I have no idea who you quoted and when without searching for that text on the page.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Hi Jeremy (again!)

Much discussion above regarding fonts and whitepace.

Speaking personally, I really like the new layout - much more readable.

(Although the new layout willl take a bit of getting used to).

But why on earth have you switched from numbers to letters in the members’ stats? That’s much less readable.

It’s standard practice to always use numbers (not letters) for statistical information.

Citation: "Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors"

Mix

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Just had a brief stroll through - some welcome improvements definately. Couple of comments-

1. When I look at my ‘history’ the number of discussions/tunes/sessions etc submitted is displayed in words, not digits - why???

2. Is the Active Discussions section listed in order so that the one at the top is the one with the most recent comment submitted to it? (I tried to test this by commenting at random on the 4th listed, but they didn’t appear and the discussion did not bubble up to the top in the Active Discussions section)

3. It may be useful to have the option of (for a particular discussion) viewing comments with newest at top - saves scrolling down to end, which may be lengthy.

Cheers
D

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

oops - X-post with Mix regarding words/numbers

(Great minds think alike………

……..and fools seldom differ!)

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

"Doesn’t particularly matter one way or the other, though would make it harder to look for something that way. Given Ceolachans industrial capacity for adding settings, his figure must be astronomical"

It matters to me. One thing that makes the tunes database such a good resource is that ceolachan and some others have made a huge effort putting into the comments many different settings, their sources and the names in those sources. That information has all been stripped out and what appears among the alternative settings/versions is multiple versions all with T:<whatever the first poster called it> with ceolachan’s name against them.

It’s like someone finding a load of envelopes and postcards from a 100 years ago and steaming off all the stamps to put them in an album. The historical information is lost.

All it needs is to allow multiple T: fields and, at least, the C: S: and Z: fields. :-(

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Hi Jeremy

Just been looking at the member "add location" function …

… but when I click "Open Streetmap" nothing happens!

Mix

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Hmm, partial apology. Those fields can be edited in, with the T: appearing in the sheet music as an alternative name. But the originals are lost.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I am, at the moment, getting 403 - Forbidden when I try to experiment further with editing.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I may have logged me off but left the Edit button there.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

It finally decided to work for me.

I really like the look of it. It’s pretty and fairly intuitive to use.

A few wee thoughts:

I know Jeremy said not to whinge about all the white space and scrolling, but I didn’t like all the scrolling either.

My biggest gripe is that I don’t like how it says a comment was "posted 6 years ago." I’d rather it say that the comment was posted in 2005. The latter seems simpler, since that information won’t have to change every year, and it’s clearer (to me) as well. I quite like reading the actual date a comment was posted on below the comment and I find it a bit disconcerting to see that the dates have been reduced to "5 years ago," "4 days ago," et cetera. I think it’s much clearer and more informative in terms of context to keep it at "December 3rd 2012" type of format than have it the way it is on the new site.

I also don’t like the use of words instead of numbers. I’d rather read that there have been 158 recordings of Cooley’s Reel added to the database than one-hundred fifty eight recordings.

Lastly, I find the way the lists of recordings of a particular tune are arranged to be a bit awkward. I like the way they are done now: fairly smallish font, all bunched together on the one webpage. I usually use that facility when I’m trying to figure out if I own a recording of a particular tune and I can quickly scan through the list of recordings. With the new site, you’d have to click through potentially pages and pages of recordings (depending on how popular the tune is). That’s far more faff.

Other than those issues, I quite like the new format.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

"’Upcoming’ is american slang"

According to the OED (which surely must be considered more authoritative than their writers’ and editors’ dictionary), it is not slang when used as an adjective, in place of "forthcoming" (as a noun, the word has been used in the Middle Ages), but chiefly used in the US. Their earliest quotation is Aldous Huxley, in 1959. Huxley, of course, was English, and an Etonian, but was living in the US at the time he used the word. I’d say the jury was out on that one.


[Yes it is incorrect, but it sounds a lot better than the only alternative, which is "Michael added [tune name] to his or her tunebook."]

A possibilty is "[tune name] has been added to the tune book of Michael".
You could use "Michael’s tunebook" but it might have problems.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

ceolachan is a machine:

Three thousand, eight hundred and sixty-seven tunes
Two hundred and twenty-three recordings
Six sessions
Four events
Two hundred and seven discussions
Twenty-eight thousand, five hundred and seventy-two comments

—- or —-

3,867 tunes
223 recordings
6 sessions
4 events
207 discussions
28,572 comments

I definitely prefer the latter.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Aye, me too. Especially for those four and five figure numbers.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

There might be a fuss over the use or placement of commas - especially from Spanish members!

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

On the general design - white space, lots of scrolling etc. My own humble opinion is that there’s a bit of tension between style and functionality. I can see where Jeremy is coming from - it is essentially a text based site and if you’re going to have lots of text, you may as well try to have the text as graphic elements. In order to add visual interest etc.

On the other hand, people read and process the same text in a functional way and there’s a lot to be said for putting more on the page and requiring less scrolling and jumping pages.

In some ways it now looks more ‘tabloid’ but lots of people read tabloids and they say attention spans are getting shorter so maybe that’s the way its all going. It actually reminds of the feel of the TradConnect site, which has more style than substance. Pity if this went same way? Doesn’t have to follow necessarily, of course.

Posted .

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Displaying all the recent activity on the homepage is not something I would have done, but I’m no web designer and that sort of thing seems to be the way websites are going.

Displaying additions to discussions, sessions, new tunes…. okay, fair enough, I can live with that. But displaying who edited their profile and stuff like that? To me, it’s just white noise on the page because I don’t care and I doubt many others do.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Seemed a bit precious to me too, who just edited …

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I’m not wild about the new look, but the new functionality generating sheet music for multiple settings of a tune is the best thing to ever happen to this site. I’ll be overjoyed when it goes live.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I would love to have the ability to enable notifications for all new comments in both a thread that you have started and also if someone replies to your comment in someone else’s thread.
As it is now it’s really hard to keep track of all the discussions one partakes..
Would this be possible to fix on the new site? :-)

Thanks in advance!

Best regards,
Mattias

Re: The shock of the new

I can only imagine the amount of work that went into the revamp—cheers Jeremy. Overall I like it.

Adding my $00.02USD to comments above:
- prefer numerals instead of words to tabulate data
- prefer dates of entries, rather than contextual phrases like "3 years ago"
- profile update notifications feel superfluous
- I wish it were just a wee bit less ‘airy’, and a bit more compact-1 point smaller font size, tighter leading etc.

Truly incredible job, though. Thank you!

And I never thought I’d say it, but I miss the mustard.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

the wounded hussar wrote "Not sure if it’s been covered above, but when I check my profile, it says I’ve submitted 49 tunes whereas it’d be 27 on existing implementation. Looks like it’s adding variations and different settings of a tune to ‘my list’."

Yes, it’s the number of tune *settings* you’ve submitted. I’ll updated the text to reflect that. Thanks for catching it.

gam quoted me: ""I’m basically discarding most of the feedback about fonts, whitespace, and colour: those are exactly the things that need to be lived with to be judged effectively"
and said:
"I spent five years at college studying exactly those things. True, you can become accustomed to it, but it doesn’t make it better. There are such things as design basics."

But perhaps I should clarify. When I said "I’m basically discarding most of the feedback about fonts, whitespace, and colour", I meant "for now". Of course I will be evaluating all of those thing, but as you know, those are things that can’t be judged in a kneejerk way if the purpose of the site is to be used long term. That’s why any feedback given within the first few hours on those issues just isn’t that valuable.

anpiobaire wrote: "On the whole "Editing point in your second last post." ElaineT is referring to "basic" functionality from any message boards worth it’s salt. If you only look at another message board and see the set of functionality you are missing. You really should consider customising an existing message board implementation and using that as the basis for the site, instead of reinventing the wheel."

Nope. This is one area where I feel quite certain that The Session is getting it right by being so simple. The complexity of almost every other message board is not a good thing. I won’t be adding any of those "features".

Mix asked "But why on earth have you switched from numbers to letters in the members’ stats? That’s much less readable." and domnall asked "When I look at my ‘history’ the number of discussions/tunes/sessions etc submitted is displayed in words, not digits - why???"

Fair question. How does everyone else feel? Numbers rather than words? If so, I’ll make the change.

Mattias said "I would love to have the ability to enable notifications for all new comments in both a thread that you have started and also if someone replies to your comment in someone else’s thread.
As it is now it’s really hard to keep track of all the discussions one partakes..
Would this be possible to fix on the new site?"

Possibly. But as I said, I’m not looking for new feature suggestions right now — just feedback on what’s currently there. I will be looking for new feature suggestions in the future, after the new site goes live, so if you could repeat your idea then, that would be great.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

domhnall.
73 tune settings
27 recordings
2 sessions
12 events
76 discussions
1,381 comments

Ah - that’s better!
I ♥ numbers !

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Yes, please — numerals not words. It is much easier to absorb the information, as not everyone says numbers in the same way, eg "a hundred and twenty", "one hundred and twenty", "one twenty" "a hundred twenty" etc etc.
Good point regarding the time elapsed as opposed to the date added — rather like the "back in twenty minutes" signs beloved of shopkeepers, they aren’t really much use.
Good work, Jeremy. It is appreciated.

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Numbers definitely.

Otherwise I’m with Jeremy (given the complexities pointed out regarding the recordings section, which is my only gripe :-P ) and have found no other bugs other than those mentioned.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Definitely numbers rather than years. And dates rather than phrases like "6 years ago." :)

I for one like that you’re keeping it simple and that it doesn’t look like every other message board out there. I’m looking at one which uses a standard message board (like the one anpiobaire linked to) template and each post includes the number of posts the poster had made, the date and time of the post, the date they joined the site, their location… Too much information! If I want to know that information about someone, I’d rather click on their profile, rather than be flooded by it every single time I read a post. The way Jeremy has done it is so much better.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

"It’s true, that functionality has been removed. I was thinking of maybe making it part of the text search i.e. to find sessions on Mondays, make sure your search term ends with "on monday".

that doesn’t work ……. eg Dublin on tuesday gives no results.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Yes, simple , and numbers, would suite me.

I find the double column format of things like ‘Activity’ hard work. I would find a boring old table with who what and when across the page (in the same font and size) easier, though a single column arranged as now might be better on a small display.

A table would save the problem of widows & orphans - at the time of writing the RH column of Activity starts with a small, itializiced ‘one hour ago’.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Last comment even more so for ‘Recordings’, as Dr Spear said above.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Another note — on my phone, it’s a vast improvement over the current version!

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

It seems that anyone can ‘Edit tune details’. Surely this is open to gross misuse, either through ignorance or even sabotage?

eg I’ve just changed Drowsy Maggie to ‘Jig’ and removed 2 supposed alternative names for it

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

#s & calendar dates

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I agree. Numbers rather than words please and dates rather than time elapses - at least when you get beyond 24 hours.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Duh, OK, I found that it goes single column in a narrow window.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

And I see that a feature of concern to hotvvater bottle collectors has been changed !

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

"It seems that anyone can ‘Edit tune details’. Surely this is open to gross misuse, either through ignorance or even sabotage?"

I would say, people will make errors, however the numbers of errors corrected will be far higher than the errors made.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Yes, elapsed time in minutes is a good addition for the current day :-) . Much better than a clock time when we are often in different time zones.

If password is not hidden Firefox will offer it to the next user in the internet cafe unless we read up on how to clear it.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Well, I fired up the TRS-80 this morning and looked at the beta for NeoMustard. It’s all changed! I hate change!

Seriously, it looks good. I would add to quibble about white space, but I will get used to it. Nice, Jeremy.

Re: editing tune details open to the hordes—that would be a concern. While most people have actual lives and would not spend their time twinking around with the database, it might be naive to think that it would never happen. There have been some strange goings-on here over the years.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Excellent stuff, id just like to say that i do use the key search although its obviously not perfect in its present format i definitely will miss the ability to search fro tunes in A mix!!

query. how do i edit a recent post? is that possible?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

More errors fixed than there are mistakes, now that’s what I call taking tasks to levels never considered possible until now!

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

David50, read the article Jeremy linked regarding the practicality of visible passwords. It’s more important than a person be able to use a password than who’s it is. It’s all about site *usability*.
;-)

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I like it!

One comment: I created a session, then added a comment,. Then updated the session but did not seem to be able to update the comment.

Any possibiliy we could tick ‘ad hoc’ instead of ticking the day(s) of the week on which a session is held? (e.g. we have one from time to time and email people when its on)

Any way to totally delete a session that no longer happens?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

"It seems that anyone can ‘Edit tune details’. Surely this is open to gross misuse, either through ignorance or even sabotage?

eg I’ve just changed Drowsy Maggie to ‘Jig’ and removed 2 supposed alternative names for it"

Easy solution - place a bar on needing to have contributed X tunes or X comments before you can edit such details.

It’s up to Jeremy how he sets the bar, but I’m voting for 3,500 tune setting so ceolachan can become a "power-user"

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

That’s all fine about the passwords - I was just flagging up that the default action of Firefox was to store values and offer them as a sort of ‘autofill’. I have not bothered to find out what the constraints on that are but on a terminal that did not enforce user log-on and log-off it would be offered to someone else if they got the correct first character.

I would prefer it if ‘keep me logged one’ defaulted to unchecked for similar reasons.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

domhnall wrote: "It seems that anyone can ‘Edit tune details’. Surely this is open to gross misuse, either through ignorance or even sabotage?"

Yes, but that activity is tracked (and visible on the front page) making it very easy to catch that kind of sabotage. That member would then be suspended. I’m also planning on implementing a system to keep a history of all changes to any particular item — much like the "History" functionality on Wikipedia articles — which would allow me to roll back to previous info.

"Easy solution - place a bar on needing to have contributed X tunes or X comments before you can edit such details."

That’s not a bad idea. Thanks.

Will Evans asked "query. how do i edit a recent post? is that possible?"

Yes, it’s possible *right* after you’ve made the post. But after a short while, it’s no longer possible. As I said, it’s more about fixing typos than substantially changing the contents of comments.

harmonic miner asked "Any way to totally delete a session that no longer happens?"

Update its schedule so that no days are selected. The session will then be marked as defunct.

"Any possibiliy we could tick ‘ad hoc’ instead of ticking the day(s) of the week on which a session is held? (e.g. we have one from time to time and email people when its on)"

That’s a bit of an edge-case, but you can always edit the session each time and change the day.

David50 wrote: "If password is not hidden Firefox will offer it to the next user in the internet cafe unless we read up on how to clear it."

That’s why the "hide password" checkbox is there.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

David50: "Yes, elapsed time in minutes is a good addition for the current day . Much better than a clock time when we are often in different time zones."

Surely the website can have only one clock reference. I’m fairly certain that Jeremy uses UK/Ireland date/time as the reference

If this is the case, you will still have the problem of the time-zone difference - whether you use absoloute time or elapsed time.

Personally, I prefer absolute date/time - as used on the existing site.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I don’t think you need to know that something was posted at 6:20pm GMT. The date alone is fine, which will obviously vary slightly depending on time zone, but I think people can handle that.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

"That’s why the "hide password" checkbox is there."
Cheers, Jeremy. That’s assuming the next user is polite enough to check the hide password box.
As David50 correctly states (if one does not delete one’s form history, in Firefox) said password, "would be offered to someone else if they got the correct first character."
Wroblewski didn’t cover that detail.

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Sometimes comments are not worth making if the activity has all moved to another discussion. Its a bit like going into the pub and continuing an earlier conversation that everyone has finished with.

Where a discussion has a large element of light banter it can be handy to see that it has all gone quiet when the participants on the other side of the world are all in bed, or at a session, or something. Sometimes a quip is only amusing if it is to someone who is probably still present.

Mix - 10 minutes ago is ten minutes ago whatever time zone you are in. Its ten minutes ago to me, its ten minutes ago to Ben, its ten minutes ago to Dr Dow. No time zone calculations needed.

(just logging off and going to a session)

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

"It seems that anyone can ‘Edit tune details’.

Given the new facilty of allowing multiple settings, why is it necessary to allow anyone other than the originator to alter an existing setting?

And how could you tell whether such a change was down to ignorance or sabotage? Or just a genuine difference of opinion of tune interpretation, for that matter?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I’m a little puzzled as to why there would be any need to alter a tune setting other than one you have submitted yourself. The problem with the existing format has always been the first one to submit the tune decides how the tune is seen. That was partially resolved in the comments where other members could post their own settings, as their own settings. One of the reason I even look at certain settings is *because* of who it is that transcribed the setting. Turn those settings over to anyone & everyone removes that aspect.

Posted by .

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

@David50 - thanks for pointing that out. I now understand the reason for using elapsed time, and retract my comment on absolute time versus relative time.

But I also agree with what Spear said - the date ought to be good enough for most people.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

"I’m also planning on implementing a system to keep a history of all changes to any particular item … which would allow me to roll back to previous info"

I dunno, surely someone determined could make a right mess, random changes here & there. Would it not be tricky to keep track of all and discriminate from legitimate changes? Might be better to allow editing to those who originally submitted a tune or a setting. At least, you’d have to make an effort then?

Posted .

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Ben - I agree with you on hiding password input.

Every OS that I have ever used (Windows, Unix, Linux. DEC/VAX, Mainframe) conceals password input. Not only that, in corporate environments these OS’s are often configured to lock you out after three failed login attempts.

And every website that I have every used needing a login also conceals password input. Are all these webmasters getting it wrong?

The reason for this security precaution is that many people access computer sytems in environments where there other folks around who might be watching their screen as they type-in their password.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

@wounded hussar - couldn’t agree more!

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

" Not only that, in corporate environments these OS’s are often configured to lock you out after three failed login attempts."

Don’t forget good ol’ Lotus Notes, which inserts XXXX for each character of your password, because clearly one X is less secure…

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I think there’s a misconception getting started. On the beta site anyone can change the *Details* on any tune, but that’s only the title and tune type. The individual settings are still in the hands of who ever posted the setting.
Just the same there is a setting I posted in the comments & while I can edit the abc body, which is fine as is, I cannot edit the title which reverts to the title used in the first submission. Normally that shouldn’t be a problem. But in this case my setting was of a related tune with a different name.

Posted by .

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

and for those using firefox try this

go to tools —> options —> security -

Click on "saved Passwords"

Click on "show passwords"

Scary ?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Ben said ""That’s why the "hide password" checkbox is there."
Cheers, Jeremy. That’s assuming the next user is polite enough to check the hide password box."

No. As long as the user doing the logging in checks the "hide password" box, the input is then a password field and won’t be stored by the browser. The next user gets nothing. Just to be clear, when you click "hide password", you are turning the input into a type="password" …no different than if it were type="password" to begin with.

Mix said "Every OS that I have ever used (Windows, Unix, Linux. DEC/VAX, Mainframe) conceals password input."

Mac and Windows now offer you the option to reveal passwords, when logging in to Wifi networks, for example.

"And every website that I have every used needing a login also conceals password input. Are all these webmasters getting it wrong?"

Not necessarily wrong, but it is basically security theatre.

"The reason for this security precaution is that many people access computer sytems in environments where there other folks around who might be watching their screen as they type-in their password."

Hence the "hide password" field.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Jeremy, I checked it out several times. Using hide password, logging in, then logging off & relogging on with the box unchecked (default). Each time typing the first character prompted the autofill & provided the password. That’s in Firefox. There’s a least 2 workarounds.
- delete my form history
or
- use *about:config* & set *browser:formfill:enable* to false.

Posted by .

< browser.formfill.enable >

Posted by .

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Jeremy wrote:
"Nope. This is one area where I feel quite certain that The Session is getting it right by being so simple. The complexity of almost every other message board is not a good thing. I won’t be adding any of those "features".

It’s a shame you feel that way Jeremy, as the site had potential for so more.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

anpiobare wrote: "It’s a shame you feel that way Jeremy, as the site had potential for so more."

Sometimes less is more. This is one of those times. Let’s agree to differ on this.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Ben wrote "Jeremy, I checked it out several times. Using hide password, logging in, then logging off & relogging on with the box unchecked (default). Each time typing the first character prompted the autofill & provided the password. That’s in Firefox."

I’ve just pushed an update. Try it now.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Re font size and white space etc., this does seem to be a usability issue. On the current site I don’t visit every day so typically look at "newest discussions" - with the webpage at 100% I can see 10 discussions per page, no scrolling needed; good design. On the new site with the webpage at 100% I can only see 5 discussions and need to scroll to see the last 5; bad design surely?

I tried fiddling with View, Text size in IE and Ctrl-hyphen to zoom out, but it is a design issue not a local configuration issue.

Also for what it’s worth, I personally don’t find much value in having list "active discussions" or "newest comments" or "recent activity" (not sure if there is any difference between the last two either?)

Cheers

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I tried a search with no results and just got a blank page. Might put something so that I don’t go to drooling while waiting for the missing inevitable ‘no results available’.

Looks pretty good, all in all. A little more frenetic and definitely more ‘wiki’. I kind of liked the old little celtic knot icon- not sure I like the ‘S’ font. Maybe something more ‘enlightened’?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Jeremy, your recent update did disable autofill for the password form. Cheers.
Now you just have to deal with the members who want it back. ;)

Posted by .

Visiting the beta-sessioners again I found some reading material. There is one voluminous collection with the title,
"ceolachan’s twenty-eight thousand, five hundred and seventy-two* comments". You can read every last one of them. If you have any spare time.
That’s a significant change, being able browse &/or read all together every comment a person has made that’s been permanently set ‘in the mustard’.

*How’s that compare with "O’Neill’s 1850"?

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

The more I footer about with it, the more I dislike clicking "next" to get through pages and pages of stuff, be it lists of recordings, tunes, sessions, etc. The current format with getting a longer list on one page that you can skim through quickly is much better.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

mrkelahan said "I tried a search with no results and just got a blank page. Might put something so that I don’t go to drooling while waiting for the missing inevitable ‘no results available’."

Done.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

In the events section is there any point in displaying events for things that have past in the "nearby events" bit? By all means keep them on the site in the background but I have a list of 5 events on mine and they are all from 2006-8. I thought it might be just because they didn’t have an end time so I edited one of them to end the gig a few hours after it started but it still appears.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I agree about having some pagination, i.e., hyperlinked numbers on each page for the next 10 pages - there’s a very handy extension for Chrome called PageZipper which, when it works, turns all the links into one verrrrrrry long page - really handy when you want to do some skimming. FastestChrome does something similar. Neither of these work at the moment, you just get repetitions of the page you’re on.

I’d disable editing of tunes at all except for the person who submitted the tune in the first place - you’re just asking to be swamped with vandals/trolls/bots. "Wikipedia Celebrates 750 Years Of American Independence": http://www.theonion.com/articles/wikipedia-celebrates-750-years-of-american-indepen,2007/ "At 750 years, the U.S. is by far the world’s oldest surviving democracy, and is certainly deserving of our recognition," Wales said. "According to our database, that’s 212 years older than the Eiffel Tower, 347 years older than the earliest-known woolly-mammoth fossil, and a full 493 years older than the microwave oven."

Oh and I assume there’s going to be HTML encoding for links at last? This kind of thing: <a href="http://www.theonion.com/articles/wikipedia-celebrates-750-years-of-american-indepen,2007/">Wikipedia Celebrates 750 Years Of American Independence | The Onion - America&apos;s Finest News Source</a> I’ve tried it and the board just seems to turn it into a plain string of text

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

The search facility for tunes would be much more useful, in my view, if the results listing showed the key and the submission date, as at present.

The key would allow you to home in on a setting that you wanted - e.g. distinguish between the G setting and D setting of "Gillan’s Apples" without having to specify the key you were searching for (in case you didn’t remember that beforehand).

The date would save time clicking and viewing pages only to find out that the result you just clicked was the same as the previous one in the list.

Actually, Jeremy, how difficult would it be to eliminate these duplicates? They are not always caused by alternative titles, as a search on "Gillan’s Apples" will demonstrate - same tune (and setting), several results in the listing with no distinguishing features.

Also, usefulness of searches in both tunes and discussions would be made a lot easier if using quotes around a string forced the engine to return only results containing that particular string. I mean it would be nice to be able to search for mentions of (for example) "Danny Meehan" in discussions without being presented with lots of hits for discussions of "Danny Boy"!

Boolean operators might be taking things a bit far, but strings in quotes doesn’t seem like rocket science.

It’s because of shortcomings like this that I search the (old) site using Google rather than the internal search facility.

I think your idea of an option to roll back or undo changes is almost essential if you are going to allow users to edit tune details.

Cheers!

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I like numbers and dates/times versus text representations of numbers and "x days ago."
On most other issues raised above, I will remain silent, as half of it I don’t understand.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I have to say again I don’t see a problem of any significance in allowing tune *Details* being available for editing at large; especially with a backup plan. It’s just the title & tune type. That’s not even as much control as members currently have to edit session details & schedule;
"New site functionality: update the details of any session"
Posted on May 9th 2012 by Jeremy
https://thesession.org/discussions/29864

Re: Changes coming to The Session
"Might be a good idea to keep a history of the changes to tunes, sessions, etc, so if the crowd sourcing does get a little out of hand, you have an easy way to revert…"
September 24th 2012 by Reverend
https://thesession.org/discussions/30604#comment656625

Really? We may be getting HTML encoding for links at some point? How about italics or bold type first?

Posted by .

It is very helpful in browsing &/or searching tunes to have an actual date of submission. Not just ‘6 years ago’. Given the number of tunes with similar names, the potential for duplicates & such it’s just one more bit of specific information to assist in the process of sorting.
The date also helps when someone tags on an older discussion & it looks as though they’ve submitted to a current discussion until I see the date & do the "ah-ha, now I get it thing;
https://thesession.org/discussions/30604#comment664864

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

@Jeremy in re his responses to me.

Yes I meant the "comments" and not the "discussions" bad word use on my part. I still fined the side by side presentation a problem. I suspect it is due to your planning for smart phone use (as I suspect the font changes are). Not a bad thing that.

As to MIDI: I’ll probably never use it, but it seems to me really bothersome to have the option there and then discover I can neither listen to nor download the file and then play it…at least one two major browsers. If the implementation is not going to get better maybe it should go away until the bugs are out. Otherwise you’ll just be subject to a steady litany of whines.

More to the point: Once you have asked to listen, or view, a tune those buttons disappear. There’s no way to get them back except returning to a previous page. It would be nice to be able to "close the window" of MIDI or dots and return to the page as it was before you asked for the sound or dots.

Add me to those who are concerned that the source field(that is the submitter) for each of the tunes and versions of tunes was not included in the ABC. Of course you can still find it down in the discussion but that seems awkward. You’ve done a marvelous and huge job of getting all those various versions collated and made into useable ABC files. If you never add the source info I’ll certainly understand, but it would be nice to have it there.

Add me to those who prefer numbers not letters and dates not time since.

Thanks again for all this work and for listening and responding to all of us. I’d venture to suggest that we’re all most appreciative of all your work even as we fuss about the details.

Chuck Boody

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

find, not fined!

on two major browsers, not one two major browsers

Oh, and if you are not using abcjs perhaps that could help the problems. I’ll go check their page right now and post here if it seems to work on the browsers I’ve been having problems with.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Having commented that I don’t like the font / layout / white space (or is that pale mustardy space) on the desktop, the new site is good to read on my iPod, though I still think the font is about 1pt too large (that’s not easy to change on an iPod because the width is preset).

Love that you can edit once (good) unless someone has replied to your post (also good I think).

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Just to add - if I read a discussion on this current site on my iPod and double-tap to expand the demiscussion text to full screen width, I can read it pretty comfortably. If look at the same place in the beta site, I can only see a third of the way down from the same start point (ie three times as much scrolling).

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

discussion - sorry, typo

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

@Jeremy

Earlier in this thread, I said:

"I’ve now found (and tried) the members search facility.

I used "ceolachan" as my test search string:

First four results returned as follows:

1) Donough
2) Dr. Dow
3) browndog
4) ceolachan

Why is this? (I think that the existing site has a similar issue).

… and later in the thread, Jeeves Tones said:

"Also, usefulness of searches in both tunes and discussions would be made a lot easier if using quotes around a string forced the engine to return only results containing that particular string. I mean it would be nice to be able to search for mentions of (for example) "Danny Meehan" in discussions without being presented with lots of hits for discussions of "Danny Boy"!

Boolean operators might be taking things a bit far, but strings in quotes doesn’t seem like rocket science. "

Jeremy - do you have any thoughts or responses regarding these search issues, please?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Yes, are a text string in quotes for searching tunes and an exact match facility for members possible ?

Often I go straight to Google rather than use the search if a tune name has a common word. Improving the tune search may cut the number of requests for tunes that are already there.

And only unique entries in tune search returns if possible (isn’t that one easy ?)

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

On the start page, where you have the summary of the recent activity, like this:

"Mark Harmer left a comment on the discussion CDs recorded with stereo mic or stereo pair?"

…I like that the name and discussion title are clickable and take you to appropriate places.

It would be *very* useful if (as with another forum I use) the word "comment" is also clickable, and takes you to that comment. Then you can pick up the thread from there. Particularly on the ipod (see my comment a couple up from here) because it involves three times as much scrolling on the new site as on this current one, so it would be valuable to get directly to the comment in question.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Would it be possible to allow just <em> and <strong> through the filter of the comment text ?

Though I guess a minimal syntax check (which this post would fail !!) would then be needed.

(and I see that passwords are now case sensitive - though I only realised recently that they were not here)

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

No cause for alarm asked "In the events section is there any point in displaying events for things that have past in the "nearby events" bit?"

Probably not. This is something I’m still mulling over. For most locations, there probably won’t be *any* upcoming events so there’ll be nothing to display …but then, is that so bad? Like I said, I’m still mulling this one over.

Kevin Rietmann asked "Oh and I assume there’s going to be HTML encoding for links at last?"

No. If you want a link, you just write the URL, same as with the current site.

Jeeves Tones wrote: "The search facility for tunes would be much more useful, in my view, if the results listing showed the key and the submission date, as at present."

But tunes no longer have a single key. Think about it: if a tune has multiple settings, each setting could be in a different key.

"Actually, Jeremy, how difficult would it be to eliminate these duplicates?"

I was doing some work last night to help alleviate this. It’s still not perfect, but it’s definitely better than it was.

And you can now search by key again. To clarify, you’re actually searching for a tune that has at least one setting in a particular key.

"Also, usefulness of searches in both tunes and discussions would be made a lot easier if using quotes around a string forced the engine to return only results containing that particular string."

I’ll look into that.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Jeremy,

I’ve just looked at it on my mobile (Blackberry) and it displays OK.
1. an odd thing though - the small case letter a displays as A so you get "trAin stAtion" - where it doesn’t do that on the PC.
2. There is a bit too much space between lines so that you don’t get much on your screen.

This might be too much work - but would it be possible to integrate the map function in a different way? That is, rather than take a chance on using the correct search term when looking for a session in a given area, what if they were all viewable on a map in relation to one’s location at the time?
I believe that a certain tax-dodging search engine company facilitates such things very well.

Posted by .

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Regarding the ‘white space’ issue — I keep wanting to shove the whole thing over to the left. Why do you have empty space on the left of the screen? I realize that I’m using a wide-screen monitor; but the current layout has a nice mustardy stripe down the right hand side, where the eye doesn’t mind it. Could you not swap the mustard rectangle with the title in it over to the other side, and / or maybe extend it down the screen?

Posted by .

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I like the location feature. Quite nifty for searches based upon that information. Larger font size is excellent!!

You should have links open in a new tab or window.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Hi Jeremy - Thanks for your reply. I would agree that it doesn’t really matter if there is nothing in that section if there is nothing in the area. You could always expand on the area covered to return more results. Other than that I think the changes to the events section are great. I have barely used the current events section because it just becomes a bit of an info dump. I am sure I would make use of the new section more and post events into it myself.

I suspect that, over time, an effective events section will lead to a decline in the problem of no events showing up.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Hi Jeremy

Just been having another look at the beta site and see that you have reverted to displaying the session stats as digits. That’s good news! :-)

On the home page you show "recent activity" with the option to click for "more recent activity".

"More recent" normally implies newer - not older!

Just semantics, I know, but might (e.g.) "additional recent activity" perhaps be clearer?

Mix

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I think a simple "Show more" would be better still.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Also, is this really intentional for comments posted "Just now"?

http://imgur.com/EQ6Ns

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Mix - is sent you a message on the beta site to find out how it worked.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

For goodness sake. Folk can get a little bit carried away with their feedback. You can read "more recent activity" like that if you want but that is a bit odd. Nobody, on clicking on the website is likely to interpret it that way and, grammatically, there is nothing wrong with the sentence. It all depends on where you put the emphasis. Saying "further recent activity" might clear up your ambiguity but it would be clumsier.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

@David50

Thanks. Yes a good idea to test session email.

However, I didn’t get your message

(Just as a control, it might just be worthwhile resending it from the main site).

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

No cause for alarm, no cause for alarm!

I did say a minor point, and I did say "only semantics"

Ever heard the one about the newspaper small-ad which stated: "For sale - antique table by lady with Queen Anne legs".

Sure, you can work out what the ad really means.

It’s not bad grammar - it’s just poor style.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Jeeves Tones wrote: "The search facility for tunes would be much more useful, in my view, if the results listing showed the key and the submission date, as at present."

Jeremy wrote: "But tunes no longer have a single key. Think about it: if a tune has multiple settings, each setting could be in a different key."

I take your point. But just try searching the Tunes section for "Gillan’s Apples", (I picked that one simply because knew there were two distinct settings, having submitted one of them. I’m sure there are more complicated cases in the database.)

The search lists four hits for the exact string entered. These alternate between the two distinct but related tunes having that name (1 = D version, 2 = G version, 3 = D, 4 = G). But there is nothing else to identify the results listed.

So you have to display four pages in order to discover that only two should really have been displayed. Which is why I submit that, if you can’t eliminate the duplicates, there should be at least something other than the tune name to identify the results (such as submission date of first entry on that page, which would save us two page displays in this case)..

The remaining 13 results displayed by the "Gillan’s Apples" search are unwanted, from my point of view, and could have been eliminated if the search engine took account of exact strings.

Of the 13 remaining results, most are alternative titles and lead to the same two tunes named "Gillan’s Apples" (in D and G). Needless confusion. And several other unrelated tunes that happen to have "Apples" in the title or (in one case - Humours of Drinagh) have "Gillan’s Apples" as what the great majority of people would regard as a mistaken alternative title.

Here are some suggestions for improving the relevance of searches instead of allowing exact strings in quotes:

Provide one series of radio buttons allowing the user to select:
* Match any of the words entered
* Match all words entered
* Exact string match only

Another useful choice would be:
* Search in tune title only
* Search in comments only
* Search in title and comments

I appreciate that this might be technically tricky and/or time-consuming to implement, but it would certainly "improve thesession experience" for me at least and others I’m sure.

Cheers

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

"This is one area where I feel quite certain that The Session is getting it right by being so simple. The complexity of almost every other message board is not a good thing." Jeremy

Whew! Thank goodness. Not that it’s up for debate anyway, but glad it’s not. It’s so much more friendly & comfortable to come to this board — visually, & usage-wise, anyway! — than those "other" boards.

"The more I footer about with it, the more I dislike clicking "next" to get through pages and pages of stuff, be it lists of recordings, tunes, sessions, etc. The current format with getting a longer list on one page that you can skim through quickly is much better." DSS

Couldn’t agree more.

Overall, the new site is not as friendly to look at on my desktop as the old/current one (though you are correct, we’ll get used to it); however, it’s much, much improved on my phone, which is great, as it’s a handy resource when I’m travelling.

As to folks’ concerns with sabotage in anyone being able to edit tunes, I’m certain the benefits of getting thing’s cleaned up & corrected (get to work, ceolachan! ;-) ) — & therefore much more useful — will far outweigh the potential for trouble.

Thanks for all your hard work, Jeremy. Superb stuff!

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Regarding messages, unless you have "Receive email updates" checked on your member profile (under "Edit your details"), you won’t get sent a copy of the message by email. But the message will be sent to you on The Session. You can see your messages by going to your member profile and clicking on the "Messsages" button.

Also, if you have unread messages waiting for you, then when you log in, the "Your profile" link in the navigation will have an unread message count next to it.

If anyone wants to test the message sending, feel free to send a test message to me: http://beta.thesession.org/members/1/contact

Re: Test click the changes coming to The Session

On the present site I can go from the Discussion, Newest comments page to this one; https://thesession.org/discussions/index/comments?comment_start=130 , in 2 clicks; & back in 3.
However, on the new site it’s more like fourteen clicks to get there and another fourteen back.

Posted by .

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

When I haven’t logon for a few days I want to pick up from the last page of comments where I left off.

Posted by .

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

@Jeremy

Just checked my profile on the beta site.

Amongst other things, its says:

Mix O’Lydian
•173 tune settings

- that’s fine :-)

… but when I drill down into those settings, it says:

Mix O’Lydian’s one hundred and seventy-three tunes

(words instead of digits, and "tunes" instead of "tune settings")

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Same here Ben, but we can still cheat by changing the page number in the address bar.

This "22 minutes ago" business certainly shows up how long I can spin out a cup of coffee !

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Cheers, David. I’m familiar with the workarounds; make good use of them too.

Posted by .

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

@Jeremy (again)

David55 sent me a message from the beta site. Intitially, I hadn’t realised that I wouldn’t get any messages by way of ordinary email (as I do with with the existing site) - but I understand that now.

So, I logon to the beta site and click my profile. Sure enough, I have David55’s message, and I click reply. Having done that, I discover that David’s message has disappeared - that’s annoying, as i wish to reference it when composing an answer to it.

So I click my browser’s back-button to go back to David55’s message, but I don’t see it - I just get the system message "Forbidden".

Then I logged off the beta site, then logged back in again. As for David55’s message, I can no longer see it or reply to it.

Mix

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

@Jeremy - forgot to mention - my "recieve email updates" option was *unchecked* when I made the above test - Mix

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Jeremy, thanks for replying about tagging edited posts. If we can only edit for a short time, I understand why there is no indication of editing. I make a fair number of typos so the preview feature and a chance to correct them will be handy.

I mentioned issues with my 1440x900 monitor. Here is a screenshot of the beta site as I see it in case it’s helpful. http://imgur.com/bvDCL

I have mixed feelings about the crowdsourcing as implemented. I love the idea of crowdsourcing. We have some really bad primary settings, tunes listed in incorrect keys, uncommon titles listed as the "main" title, and obvious typos in the alternate titles. It would add greatly to the usefulness and quality of the site as an archive if we can clean all this stuff up. Problem is, right now the tunes seem very vulnerable to ignorant or even malicious editing. Most wiki sites with crowdsourced content have volunteer experts who review changelogs, revert inappropriate changes, and revoke edit permissions if necessary. Perhaps I’m missing it, but I’m not seeing a change history other than the "recent activity" page which has 1100 pages to sort through.

I have changed Drowsy Maggie to Jeremys Folly on the temporary beta database to demonstrate my point. ;-)

By the way, I also picked up a bug as I did it. The title "Jeremy’s Folly" got truncated after the ’ to "Jeremy’".

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Ben wrote: "…on the new site it’s more like fourteen clicks
to get there and another fourteen back. "

Yes, but why would you want to?

Posted by .

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Why does there need to be one correct setting for a tune? It’s partly a rhetorical question, but I think that is what Jeremy, & others, are wanting to get away from. Granted there are some terrible abcs in the so called primary settings. However, it seems the new database is moving toward displaying alternate settings right up front. If these can be credited directly to the person doing the transcription at least you know who is paying attention & who’s just posting bad abcs.

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Yes, my ABC tune list on my hard disk has lots of records such as "N: thesession.org ceolachan in the comments". I see no use for the tunelist here until it can have that, and also the C:, S:, Z: fields that people like ‘c’ and nigelg put into their ABC.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I like the ‘top’ botton at the bottom, quite handy.

Also, having the Tunebook able to organize by ‘Tune Type’ for those that use it, marvelous!

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I just want to see if this works. David these two have the source;
Full trabscription of Paul McGrattan’s version on Music at Matt Molloy’s
http://beta.thesession.org/tunes/87#comment254484

"Cunla" (jig)
Posted by gian marco 9 years ago.
http://beta.thesession.org/tunes/34#comment46995

If I remember correctly Gian Marco might want to do some editing on the repeats.

"Anyway, I hope you can get some use out of the new functionality. And don’t forget you can arrange the tunes in your tunebook by name, key signature or tune type."

"Have fun!"

Posted on July 18th 2001 by Jeremy

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Test edit the changes …

I just edited the titles of the top twenty most popular tunes & gave each one the same name.
No, I didn’t! Don’t be so thick.

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

To jump in at "Jeremy’s Folly", there are several versions to "Drowsy Maggie" with little variance. As a premise, allowing all of the ‘versions’ of "Drowsy Maggie" to show together, regardless of key and setting is an improvement. It allows the awareness of variance of theme, unimportance of key and other important but subtle nuances to identity of tune and similitude.

Allowance for settings and variance is good, but do we want to ‘string out’ the variations and/or settings of each tune, allowing the members to decide the ‘patent’ issue of the idea by happen-stance or comprehensively compile these ideas in some reasonable way for simplicity’s sake. (I actually like the idea of a little arguing of settings for sake of liberty and comment, but am usually a little anxious as to whether there is a ‘common’ or ‘true’ setting.)

At this point, to be honest, I’d say anything will work, but I hate seeing all the miniscule variations as ‘novel’ or note-worthy, yet would like to somehow merit their importance on the whole, as found appropriate.

I know it was somewhat rare, but will there still be the occassional ‘poof” for reasonable instances? Though new and a continent away, I’ll actually miss the old mustard (I picked up a mustard set of towels today just for the reminder.)

Just when the ‘editor’ was going to get out easy?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Sometimes I wonder if most websites aren’t built for the sake of the numbers. Not that I’m saying the mustard is following that lead. But for all the tunes currently in the "db" does the figure grow exponentially once you factor in the tune settings?

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Nah! It’s not even double 11,063 tunes to 19,278 settings

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Ben. Yes, I already worked out that those fields could be edited in - I edited one of my few contributions to check that (hence my apology above). My concern is that information ceolachan and others put in has been stripped out. I can understand that there might be a lot of garbage and syntax errors in there but even ‘c’ may not have the dedication to edit it all back in again !

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Are the changes to tune settings on the beta site to be carried over with the relaunch of the session.org? It’s my understanding this is strictly a dry run.

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

oops, that may read as if I thought ‘ceolachan and others’ may have included ‘garbage and syntax errors”. I didn’t mean that.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

"Veritable similitude"?

I quite like that. Sums up thesession.org very neatly I think

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I’m glad your back Michael. I may get opportunity to defend the tune database as a wonderful resource to offset my grumbles about lost opportunity in the changes made in the beta.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

David50, regarding "lost opportunities": once the new site goes live, that doesn’t mean the end; that’s just the beginning. As I said, I plan to roll out plenty of other features …but not all at once.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Jeremy. I am sure the new site will be an improvement and I hope that most of my comments are the sort of feedback that you have asked for. The missed opportunity that concerns me is that the T:, C:, S: and Z: fields (mainly) that people have put into the ABC settings in the comments have been stripped out. The people who put them in are usually the those with a lot of knowledge.

A second T: field would keep the association between a setting and a name. It would reduce the need for people to submit what they considered significantly different versions as additional tunes and for you to then remove them if you disagreed. Tune ‘families’ would partially document themselves through the names and settings.

I think it is great that ceolachan posts different settings from different sources, and some of his own ideas, but far less useful if they all get lumped under the same name with no record kept of where they came from.

Once people start editing the alternative settings extracted from the comments won’t it be hard to do a fresh extraction with more of the original material included in the ABC code ?

Or have you kept it and got some extra linking tables in mind to allow that (and also things like the setting - track links that people are asking for above) ? If so shouldn’t we be prevented from editing those settings/versions for the time being ?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Jeremy, the music in-line with the ABCs is much better. At least it isn’t cut off. I’m still having screen space issues seeing music though, largely becasue there is too much white space between the staves.

Take The Frieze Breeches. https://thesession.org/tunes/34 On the old website, it fits on my screen and I can see all 5 parts without scrolling. Even the super-long Strayaway Child fits. https://thesession.org/tunes/134

On the beta website, I can’t see all the parts on any tune beyond 3 parts without scrolling. Only 7 staves fit on my screen I have to zoom out to where the text gets small to see Frieze Breeches, and Strayaway child is illegible by the time it fits. My 1440x900 screen is taller than the most common 1366x760 and 1024x768 so I’m in better shape than most.

I really hope you can streamline the site to fit more information on the screen in general. Right now the white space and scrolling is to the point where it will probably dissuade me from using the site as often.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Jeremy, in editing the tune settings will it be possible to merge settings or to delete one of the *settings*? In "The Humours of Bandon"
http://beta.thesession.org/tunes/2193
setting #3 isn’t a setting at all. According to the comments is was intended as a correction for a missing repeat;
|: d |\ ~ Oops! ~ forgot the repeat colon at the start of the B-part

|: d |\
dgg gfg | a-a/b/a/g/ f2 a | g-g/a/g/f/ f d2 e | =f-f/g/e/d/ c2 e | ~

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

An afterthought about tunes, Jeremy. What if, instead of displaying the ABCs and providing a button to render conventional staff notation, you simply displayed the "sheetmusic" for all settings automatically, and provided the ABCs either via a button, or displayed them alongside the sheet image?

It seems to me that the new interface gives you an opportunity to get away from the current paradigm of ABC first and sheet music on a separate tab at some time after the ABCs are submitted.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Jeeves, the beta site does show sheet music as soon as the abcs are submitted. Yes, it is with a button & you get the abcs first. So, unless you’re asking Jeremy to add an abc editor, one doesn’t have to wait for the conversion on the beta site.
If you go to the "Newlyn Reel" submission on the beta site you’ll see already it has the sheet music.
http://beta.thesession.org/tunes/12333#setting20548
On the current site, last time I checked, "Newlyn Reel" hasn’t yet been converted for sheet music.
https://thesession.org/tunes/12337

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Assuming that Jeremy goes ahead with switching the site over in the next few days, as he originally indicated was his plan then I doubt any tunes submitted now will be converted before the switchover. What would be the need?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I’m sure he’s very busy on his current project.

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Well exactly. I wasn’t implying laziness though. I genuinely meant, what is the point of manually converting a handful of tunes when they will all be picked up by the new site shortly.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

@Ben - Interesting - the title of tune that you mentioned is given as "Newlyn" on the old site - but as "Plethen Newlyn" on the new site.

Q. Why is that?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Mix, you’d have to ask Len why he used differing titles for each submission.
Jeremy, when I click the *Print* button for a tune setting it brings up the print window just fine. (this is on Firefox) But along with it it opens a window with only [ object Window] on the page.
I think I found a solution on this site; http://www.tek-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=769387
I tried BillyRayThe PreachersSon’s advice & it seems to work.
Changing line 204 in the source code from
<a href="javascript:window.open(\” + printurl + ‘\’)"class="action button reveal print">print</a>
to
<a href="javascript:var handle=window.open(\” + printurl + ‘\’)" class="action button reveal print">print</a>

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Ben I don’t think you get what I meant. I was suggesting that when you click a tune title to display its page, you see the scores for all settings immediately, without having to click any buttons. And that if logically anything needs to be displayed by clicking a button, it ought to be the ABCs ("logically" assuming that conventional notation makes more sense to more people than ABCs do).

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I thought of something that might be interesting. You put in a tune’s name, and see all the different settings that people have submitted. Then you vote for which setting looks the most like the one you play. Then the software puts the setting on top that the most people have picked. And all the versions have percentages that show what portion of voters thought that was the closest version to what they played. That would help folks see what the most common settings of each tune are. And it would also help to get some of the odd settings or poor transcriptions to the bottom of the list.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I think that is a very good idea Al!

Reveal the sheet music 1st … click to get abc code

Cheers, Jeeves. I had an inkling that was more likely what you meant. Thanks for the clarification. Hopefully others will express what works best for them.
What I find useful about having abcs displayed when I click on a tune is when the tune has several settings I can scroll through say 10 of them & read who has contributed each setting.
The comments section has always been the better aspect of the the tunes section. Certain members have become rather prolific at adding their own settings within the comments. Some very good, though I’m sure there’s a fair bit of dross. Having seen over a few years perhaps only a handful of members build most of this body of previously unseen *scores* I find it fascinating to scroll through the gibberish that is abc code & read their names. If it takes clicking one button to reveal what’s inside I’m in no hurry.
So, you’re probably correct. Sensible people will prefer conventional notation. Just let’s keep who’s written the setting somewhere it’s easy to find. What does everyone else think?

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A beta to get out the vote

Cross posted. AlBrown, let me be sure I get this right.
Let’s say Kenny has a setting, & then ceolachan, a couple from ethical blend, weejie has one, Mix puts in 3 … & you want me to vote on them? … for every tune I play?
Bring it on! The Mustard never dies.

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

@AlBrown - Interesting - I too had thought of the voting idea, but didn’t suggest it for the reasons as pointed out by Ben.

It might just work though, if members were encouraged to do it for the (say) the 100 most popular tunes.

And It it were implemented, something would need to be in place to prevent a member skewing the outcome by voting more than once on any given tune.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I like the voting idea. I wonder what other ways there are of getting not-very-typical original submissions.

I wonder if it would result is a ‘ranking’ of settings similar to that in the list of tunes in most tunebooks. Is that really a good representation of tune ‘popularity’ ? Does it tend to be biased towards ‘fashion’ amongst a particular type of user ? If so does it perpetuate that. Would the settings played by the Corrs rise to the top.

Would the setting first posted rise to the top because that was what people learned after getting the dots here. I don’t think I would vote because of the fringes of the session world a lot of ‘learned it from tune book made up from thesession.org’ goes on and I am not convinced a lot of what I hear has been filtered through experienced players.

I will carry on looking at the names of the submitters.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Aaargh. I haven’t tried posting on the beta yet. Is it possible for the server to check that we are still logged in before clearing the form after we hit ‘Post’ ?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Huh, first line wasn’t all in the copy: "… getting not-very-typical original submissions lower down on the list".

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Jeeves Tones wrote: "An afterthought about tunes, Jeremy. What if, instead of displaying the ABCs and providing a button to render conventional staff notation, you simply displayed the "sheetmusic" for all settings automatically, and provided the ABCs either via a button, or displayed them alongside the sheet image?"

That’s originally how I wanted to have it: have the sheet music displayed by default. The reason why I added the extra click with the button is for performance reasons: when a setting is converted to sheet music, a fairly hefty JavaScript file has to be loaded (for the first one, at least) and then there’s some computational overhead in converting the ABC to SVG. When I had the sheet music was appearing automatically, pages were getting very, very sluggish.

So I very much agree that it would be nicer to have the sheet music display automatically, but in this case the harsh reality of performance means that the compromise is necessary.

Ben, thanks very much for that tip with the print window.

As for voting on settings, I’ve thought about that. I might well implement it. Although, remember that for most tunes, it won’t be relevant at all as most tunes still have just one setting. But yeah, ordering by popularity rather than date would be nice to have.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Since the process is based on the abcs there is a logic in them coming first, then they are parsed, then the image. But that’s the logic in the software. Unless you have an image up front the conversion will always take more time depending on what results you’re looking for.

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Whilst I would read the sheet music and not the ABCs and like the idea of displaying the sheetmusic by default the other problem this would create would be one of space. Sheet music takes up significantly more room than the ABCs and if there are multiple settings on the one page then that can mean a hell of a lot of scrolling.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Jeremy, how do I get my location off my profile? Displaying my neighborhood publicly and without my permission is absolutely, positively NOT OK.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Recent Activity includes "Kenny edited the tune Sweeny’s Buttermilk. 3 days ago ". On going to the tune I can’t see what that refers to. What am I missing ?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Fair point Elaine albeit all we know from looking at your profile is you live somewhere around the San Diego area. I doubt it will lead to you being doorstepped.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

The ‘reel’ version if The Star of County Down has a waltz version in the comments and that setting has been changed to M:4/4 and R: reel from M:3/4 and R:waltz in the comments. (Still 3 to a bar though).

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Oh, I see, my previous attempted post was lost. The reason there is no sign of Kenny having edited Sweeney’e Buttermilk is that we can change the settings without anything appearing to say it has been done. So I changed that tune to a jig and noticed that both settings had changed. S i went looking for a tune that had a version with a different rhythm in the comments.

I changed it back (after seeing what the MIDI sounded like with it as a hornpipe)

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Two of the names given for "Sweeny’s" on this site do not appear on the beta listing; "The McGlinchey’s" & "Scarce O’ Taties"

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

@No Cause For Alarm, the map wasn’t coming up showing greater San Diego. It was coming up centered on my neighborhood. Sure the chance of being doorstopped is small but it’s still a pretty dodgy thing to do to your users privacy-wise. There is no notification saying that if you share your location to find nearby sessions it will be added to your profile. We need a choice in the profile settings about whether or not our location is shared.

Fortunately you can plug in different coordinates to mitigate the problem. I’ve teleported to the lovely Grand Canyon. I’ll be visiting to the Eiffel Tower next, and then perhaps the Caymans?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

So that might be someone ‘tidying up’ then Ben.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

When I saw the prompt in the session section asking if I wished to share my location I knew if I clicked on anything other than *not at this time* there probably wouldn’t be an option to edit that decision. I understand why web designers do things this way. Personally I’d prefer better choices about how I *share* information about myself.

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

David, I was thinking the someone might be Kenny; since you were wondering about his recent activity.

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Yes Ben, I was concurring. I know Scarce O’Tatties as another tune that has an entry here added by a member who should be regarded as reliable.

But then I may have learned it from someone who got it from here, so I don’t have any knowledge to add.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

@Ben, when the website asked me my location, I was on the sessions page. I thought I was sending location data in order to find nearby sessions, not to update my profile with it.

I just checked and you don’t even have to make an account to see someone’s location in their profile.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Yes, the one on the sessions page. That’s the one I was referring to. I commiserate. It probably would have been more clear if I’d said I understand why web designers *think they need to* do things the way they do. As far as I’m concerned the person who’s information it is should be in control from the start & for the duration of their time as a member of any forum. That’s not how the beta site is currently set up. And I don’t like it.

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

ElaineT, Ben; I’ve added the ability to remove your location information from your member profile — that was something I just hadn’t got ‘round to adding when I made the beta site live.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Here we are then :-) I see that a second T: field edited into the setting is now the one that shows in the sheet music. :-)

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Argh this feels weird. I like it though!

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

A few useful bits but, sorry, mostly I am underwhelmed:

1. Far too much white space which results in far too much scrolling.
2. In events near you, why bother to show me things that took place in 2007?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Hello, I don’t like the serif font and all the white space either, I miss the mustard. Not bothered with the recent activity thing either. Sorry, been coming to this place for years and these changes feel weird. I like the edit function though. Not happy about the location thing, we should be allowed to control what location info is diplayed.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Peter wsll wrote: "Not happy about the location thing, we should be allowed to control what location info is diplayed."

You *can* control what location info is displayed.

"Sorry, been coming to this place for years and these changes feel weird."

I think that’s always going to be the case with any redesign: even if the changes are objectively "better", they’re going to feel weird because they’re different to what you’re used to. That’s why I had the beta site up for a week to get a feel for the changes that would be coming. But I understand that change is bound to feel strange.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Far too much white space which results in far too much scrolling.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

johndsamuels asked "In events near you, why bother to show me things that took place in 2007?"

That’s a fair point. I think I will change it to only show upcoming events near you (although that means that 90% of the time, there won’t be anything to show at all).

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I agree with too much scrolling especially in a thread this long. to read this comment takes a lot of scrolling wouldn’t it be better to go straight to my post?

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

You’ll never please everybody Jeremy, so do what you think best. It’s an improvement overall and still basically text based with no annoying pop up adverts etc. I might ask though, I haven’t got the ‘Listen’ to the tune in midi version to work at all - running in Explore on standard Windows etc. Maybe it needs an addon?

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

the wounded hussar wrote: " I might ask though, I haven’t got the ‘Listen’ to the tune in midi version to work at all - running in Explore on standard Windows etc."

I’m afraid the midi playback won’t work in some browsers (and by "some browsers", I mean Internet Explorer). Sorry about that. It’s all down to the JavaScript I’m using to generate the sheet music and midi files. It’s very powerful but it does require a modern browser: http://code.google.com/p/abcjs/

I have a fallback for the sheet music button: you get taken to concertina.net and see the sheet music there. But there’s no corresponding fallback for the midi files, I’m afraid.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I do like the changes..just need to get used to them

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Jeremy, thanks for the events response.

[I think that’s always going to be the case with any redesign: even if the changes are objectively "better"…]

I don’t think there is any objective right/wrong or better/worse in design matters. All that counts is the effect it has on people. In the preceding posts lots of people say that there is too much white space. The best that anyone has to say about it is that they will probably get used to it. Really, it needs fixing.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

On the plus side you can get Google Chrome for free.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I don’t think that there is too much white space.

If you don’t think that there is any objective right/wrong or better/worse in design matters then I would question your use of the word "fixing".

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Hey Jeremy,

Liking the new look of the website! I’m just wondering if you have plans to reinstate the ‘advanced’ tune search option, whereby you can search for a tune by entering a phrase of it in ABC? I found that very handy!

Cheers,
Alex.

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

cool! I like it - Thank you!
Reed in Minneapolis

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Re: Who’s copying who?

Ahh, man. That was the old site. It makes me feel so notalgic.

I quite like it…takes a bit of getting used to right enough. More…."professional"? …..like, you feel as though you should cheque your speling. And your grammar. as well

Re: Who’s copying who?

Ah, OK. Maybe Jeremy sold them the logo second hand.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Great design aesthetically and functionally. Thumbs up!

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Alex said "I’m just wondering if you have plans to reinstate the ‘advanced’ tune search option, whereby you can search for a tune by entering a phrase of it in ABC? I found that very handy!"

Actually, that should just work now in the regular search: try putting in a snippet of ABC in the search field.

But I am thinking of having a separate advanced search form, yes.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Jeremy, I wonder if people are bothered by the white space because it’s just slightly too light. I find it quite hard on the eyes, whereas the old screen was easy to read for long periods - this is important for me when I have other work to be doing! :-) If I try dimming the brightness down a bit it’s ok but the text becomes harder to read. Maybe slightly more of a buff tint to the white would make it easier on the eyes and keep it more "old skool" for those who miss the thesessionII look! It would also look more friendly and less "formal". As Danny said, at the moment you’re made to feel as if you’re writing an academic document or something where you should watch your spelling.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Mustard, we hardly knew ye! Nice work Jeremy.

Dow - there’s an extension for Chrome called "sunglasses" that dims websites for you, might be worth investigating. There’s a whole passel of features for Windows dealing with accessibility that might be of use too, same is true I imagine of Macs/Firefox.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Dr. Dow, you might be right about it being a bit bright. I may slowly dial it down a little over time.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Jeremy, I’d tend to agree with Dr. Dow, but the text for me just isn’t sharp enough against the background.

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Let there be Mustard!

Scroll, scroll, scroll your mouse,
Gently down the page ….

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Ack, this looks pretty but I’ll be visiting the discussion section much less often…it doesn’t show the last posting date. I don’t want to keep looking in the same thread only to discover nothing new is in there.

This does look and function very well on my mobile, but on my computer…boy it’s way too bright in the background.

Eric

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I was giving the font, white space etc a few days trial as requested. But since people are commenting I will say that I *like* the background colour.

Does the subject line need to be in a larger type as well as being in a darker colour ? It usually carries no information. Would the french mustard colour in bold be enough ? Do we need a blank line as well as the faint horizontal line and size and colour changes between posts ? Changing those would cut the white space.

Is it the single line posts that make everything seem to spacious ? Multi-paragraph posts on a narrow screen look good.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

[Scroll, scroll, scroll your mouse,
Gently down the page …. ]

Verily, verily, verily, verily
I’m consumed with rage.

Oh yes, an easier means of quoting from a preceding post would be nice.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Thanks Jeremy, what a professional looking new site! This has been an interesting discussion to read and I’d agree the scrolling does seem long after the previous version of the site. Maybe its just that the leading is so big that it doesn’t read quite like normal ‘body text’ although it is nice and clear. Also the paragraph breaks may stand a little narrowing as a way to reduce the scrolling, and David50 made a smart point that repeating each comment sub-heading takes up quite a lot of space when they are not really the focus.
Never mind feeling like I have to type more accurately now the site has been revamped, I feel like I have to PLAY better too!! Probably a good thing…

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Just newly opened the test site and it seems fine to me at first look, though I probably agree with those who would prefer a non-serif font. I like the clarity of the layout in this new format and can live with the extra scrolling that the larger typeface requires, as my eyes are less sharp than when I was younger! While typing this I do in fact find the screen rather bright, so perhaps a slight darkening of the background might be in order.
So far, I like what I am experiencing.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Oh, and just noticed that down at the bottom of a long discussion like this one, it takes ages to re-find the navigation at the top of the page. Could the navigation be fixed in view across the top like the Session title tab already is?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Oh, and just noticed that down at the bottom of a long discussion like this one, it takes ages to re-find the navigation at the top of the page. Could the navigation be fixed in view across the top like the Session title tab already is?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Press the Home key Ange.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Hi Jeremy
I just tried to read through from the start of this discussion but have run out of time to get through all of it so may poss. produce some repeats here.

The new look is fresh and clean but I am agreeing a bit with not bieng able to read as easily re both contrast and font. I quite like new font but the old was more readable. Ive turned my screen brightness down which helps with the eye strain.

I’ve not yet figured out how to get to the midi files. It’s good to hear the the Quicktime but I need to get the midi file into Realplayer to slow it down to learn as I don’t read music. I used to right click on midi then save on old site but can’t do that now.

When I travel round the country I used to find sessions on the days I was there but can’t now. I tried putting the place and the day in the search box but came up with "no results". It’s quite a hassle when there are quite a few sessions in an area to wade through the details/comments for them all to find what days they’re on. The old day selector was good for me when travelling.

The new zoomable maps are great.
My dream for visiting new sessions when I’m traveling would be to be able to have all the sessions on a google type map so I could zoom into the area I’m visiting and locate all the sessions in reach without having to bother to find what district/town/county name they might come under for me to search. I’ve already started building my own by hand as I visit a new area, but if all "The Session" sessions could be fed into a map for me to wander round .. that would be bliss. Any chance ?

Thanks for all your work anyway
Ken

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Jeremy, thanks for making it so we can remove locations from our profiles. RSS redirect for the discussion topics seems to be working fine as well.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

The definition of ‘Active Discussions’ needs a bit of tweaking maybe. Seems to go by the number of posts and presumably threads in the past couple of weeks - however the second item on ‘Book of New Tunes’ or whatever, clearly isn’t active - it’s a good week since that was flogged to death.

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

"If you provide your location on your profile, it will be much easier to find sessions, events, and other members in your area."

How does this work ?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I think I’d add some entry box border shading. Because I was logged out and had to go through the sign in process I noticed that I had a very hard time seeing where the log in box and the password box were located - and that they were even on the screen. Otherwise, nice job on the overhaul - it reminds me of when a retail shop rearranges the shelves and you discover things that were always passed up.

‘New tune settings’

Under ‘New tune settings’ It would be useful to have some way to distinguish between tunes newly added to the database and new transcriptions added to a previously existing contribution.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Well, the new format seems to be here for me, but the home page is a blank one that says "404 page not found."

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

A couple other things:
- Missing meta descriptions on the pages
- The log out link is not in the expected position (upper right)
- Any chance we can get Markdown in the comment boxes?

Nice job, though, especially on the responsive design.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

mcdevincabe said "Set up some 301s for old URLs to redirect to the new ones, e.g. https://thesession.org/discussions/index.php should go to discussions. You probably need to do the same for tunes, especially."

I missed that one for the index.php page (I’ll fix that) but all the old tune URLs should be redirecting correctly, with 301 headers.

"Missing meta descriptions on the pages"

These are rarely used anymore, even by search engines, but I could add a standard placeholder.

"The log out link is not in the expected position (upper right)"

There is no standard position for logging out. And it’s not a link — it’s a POST request.

"Any chance we can get Markdown in the comment boxes?"

No.

"Nice job, though, especially on the responsive design."

Thank you. And I appreciate the feedback.

ceolachan said "Under ‘New tune settings’ It would be useful to have some way to distinguish between tunes newly added to the database and new transcriptions added to a previously existing contribution."

Why?

Theirlandais said ""If you provide your location on your profile, it will be much easier to find sessions, events, and other members in your area."

How does this work ?"

Well, that’s something of a chicken-and-egg situation. I have to wait ‘till people have started adding their location details before I can start using that data to expose nearby sessions, events, members, etc. But trust me, this aspect of the site is top of my priority list.

Ken said "My dream for visiting new sessions when I’m traveling would be to be able to have all the sessions on a google type map so I could zoom into the area I’m visiting and locate all the sessions in reach without having to bother to find what district/town/county name they might come under for me to search."

This is definitely something I want to work on: you tell The Session you’re going on a trip — the site then gives you a list (and map) of sessions, events, and members in the location you’re headed to.

Angebangsthedrum said "Oh, and just noticed that down at the bottom of a long discussion like this one, it takes ages to re-find the navigation at the top of the page."

There’s an upwards-pointing arrow in the footer that will take you back to the top of the page.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I love the new interface.
Here is a small problem:

The "print" version of the tune I looked at does not show the key signature, though the display version does. Here’s the tune I tried:

The Boys Of Ballysodare reel in G
https://thesession.org/tunes/1354

FYI, the preview button for posting comments did not seem to work.

Thanks for all the work you do. Great site, great job.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

"ceolachan said "Under ‘New tune settings’ It would be useful to have some way to distinguish between tunes newly added to the database and new transcriptions added to a previously existing contribution."

Why?"

Because Ceolachan is our tunes and recordings Quality Control Officer, nothing escape his attention, however if his has too much stuff to monitor, it makes it more work.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Art Friedman said "The "print" version of the tune I looked at does not show the key signature, though the display version does."

Oh, good catch! Fixed.

"FYI, the preview button for posting comments did not seem to work."

Hmmm, really? That’s odd. Anyone else having this issue?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Yes, maybe it’s an IE - Explorer thing - my post just dissapeared when I tried it earlier.

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Hi Jeremy, great meeting you in Belfast. Saw your upcoming RWD conference in Brighton. Wish I could make it. Bit of a trek though :)

Just tried adding a URL to a local session, it requires an "http://" at the start, could it be a touch friendlier and accept just a "www."?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Kudos for the printable notation, looking tidy :)

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

achisholm said "Just tried adding a URL to a local session, it requires an "http://"; at the start, could it be a touch friendlier and accept just a "www."?"

That’s actually a browser issue: if you use input type="url", webkit (not sure about Firefox and Opera) will insist that it’s a valid URL. I might just end up switching it over to being input type="text" to avoid the draconian client-side form validation.

‘Twas great meeting you at Build too. Thanks again for all the feedback.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Jeremy, there’s still the problem of not being able to correct a misspelled town name in the sessions listings. Is there any chance that this could be sorted out, please?

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

1. Hide the password by default, the whole idea is that people that are looking at the same screen can’t see your password when you type it. The purpose of a password (something that only you know) gets quite defeated by showing it.
2. I’d love a setting where I can choose to show the sheet music instead of the abc by default. I’m a lot better at reading the sheet music, and I’ve kinda always hated to use a separate button to see sheet music. Hated? Yes, it never worked that well on my smartphone. On that same note, I’m loving the mobile website.

O, and I love the font.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Hi Jeremy,

Given it a while with the font. I still don’t like it and prefer the serif. Also it takes three screens on my ipod to read the same length of posts that one screen would do on the old site. But mainly because it’s "in your face" - though whether it’s the font or the over-bright page background I don’t know. I know you can shink the whole thing in all modern browsers but that doesn’t help with the amount of white (yellowish) space which is just a bit painful to me to look at. And before you ask, I have a monitor that’s properly calibrated for brightness / contrast / colour with a colorimeter (because I do a lot of video work) and I think it’s because there isn’t that much visual relief on the page, that the mustards / browns make it a bit too much hard work to stay on the page for long - I’m constantly finding myself alt+tabbing to other apps or other sites just to give my eyes a rest. Sorry!

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

robbertzzz wrote "1. Hide the password by default"

No.

"the whole idea is that people that are looking at the same screen can’t see your password when you type it."

And that’s *exactly* why there’s a "hide password" option …for that situation when somebody might see your screen. But that situation is the exception, not the norm. Hence, "hide password" is the exception, not the norm.

"The purpose of a password (something that only you know) gets quite defeated by showing it."

Only if someone can see your screen. In which case, you should tick the "hide password" checkbox.

"2. I’d love a setting where I can choose to show the sheet music instead of the abc by default."

See the explanation above. It’s a performance issue. Loading in the JavaScript to generate the sheet music would significantly slow down the initial page load.

"On that same note, I’m loving the mobile website."

Thank you very much. Improving the usability on mobile devices was a high priority for me.

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^^ First sentence - "Sans" serif - damn!! Hopefully it’s clear that’s a typo!! ^^

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Mark Harmer wrote "I have a monitor that’s properly calibrated for brightness / contrast / colour with a colorimeter (because I do a lot of video work) and I think it’s because there isn’t that much visual relief on the page, that the mustards / browns make it a bit too much hard work to stay on the page for long - I’m constantly finding myself alt+tabbing to other apps or other sites just to give my eyes a rest."

Yeah, I’ll definitely be dialling down the brightness of the background colour slightly.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Thank you, Jeremy, I appreciate it!

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Jeremy said "That’s actually a browser issue"

Ah, really. It’s a bit strict, but strict for a reason I suppose. I’ve just had a hunt around to see if I could pick up anything but it’s seems to be impervious. Great job.

Best part of the new update is the increased visibility of activity. Much easier to hop around and explore the vast amount of content.

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Nope, still not into "5 minutes ago," "2 weeks ago," "3 years ago" date stamping. Pleeeease can we have actual dates back.

Otherwise, I will probably start liking it once I get my head around it. It is very pretty.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Hello.
I like the new page. The only problem that i see is the back of the page, is too white and it shine a lot. Is more difficult to read it. (sorry for my bad english)

Thanks for help me to learn music.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Nice work, some feedback…

The weight of the text is not enough to counterbalance the overall brightness. A darker text might fix it.

The arrow at the bottom of the discussion pages is great for getting to the top but no use if you are half way down. In some discussion topics that can be a long way. An arrow at the top to get to the bottom would be at least as handy and maybe more so.

Cheers

Chris

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

The embedded YouTube links are great. Then it crashed Firefox. That might be my old Mac being a grumpy b*gger. though. Has anyone else had this problem?

(but it’s a Mac…. it should live foreeeeeever!)

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Amazing work! :D

Removing my location doesn’t work… :(

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

OK, now it seems to be working fine, I just need to get used to it all. Being able to call up sheet music for all the different settings is a great addition for those of us who prefer dots to abc’s.
Thanks for all your hard work, Jeremy!

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Where did the Advanced Search go?
I do like the way the sheet music works, and the new print option and the listen option which plays it Quicktime Player. But, I liked being able to search for a sequence of notes with the Advanced search. Are there plan to bring that back?

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Advanced search seems now to be incorporated into the normal search, which is a good idea. You type your abc into the box after "for". It might be a bit clearer if it was worded something like "for abc fragment:" so people know that that’s what you have to type in the box.

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About the text sizes. I think the subject line being the same size text as the comment, as it is in the ‘Newest Comments’ , would work well for the comments in the actual discussion. However, in ‘Newest Comments’ in may be better if it *did* have larger text because that is where it is carrying information that someone scanning the list may be looking at first for each entry.

That is, would they be better with the formats switched ?

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Layout doesn’t seem to work that well IMO - I much prefer a standard layout as on Melnet Chiff… ect. and have read similar comments posted on other forums.

Sessions section - now it takes longer to find what you’re looking for.

I like the serif typeface - it is a fact that serif fonts are easier to read - just try and find a novel thats been printed in a sans serif face.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Can’t agree @Gromit that it’s "a fact" that serif fonts are easier to read. From Wikipedia:

"Serif fonts are widely used in traditional printed material such as books and newspapers. Many magazines employ sans serif typefaces, as some editors state that they are "cleaner", regardless of any impact on readability from the lack of serifs. Numerous studies have been done on the readability of serif vs. sans serif typefaces, without a consistent conclusion. Some studies indicate that serif typefaces may be more readable in print, but there is no consensus. Studies of on-screen use are also ambiguous, suggesting that low screen resolutions make serifs more difficult to discern, with a resulting erosion of readability compared to sans serif fonts."

Since getting my iPod with its retina display, I find Serif fonts on websites easier than they were, but personally I still don’t like them - some of my dislike being that for some reason those old-school Yahoo groups used them. Amazon did too - although they appear to have gone over to Sans now and hopping around my usual sites, I can’t find one that uses Serif fonts any more. Not to say Serif doesn’t have a certain "style" about it.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I only just had a look at the pages on IE8. I currently use Firefox (I am on PC). With the default settings the difference in rendering of the text between the two is, I think, far greater that the difference between serif and sans serif.

Firefox, as downloaded with no setting changes, is not doing any anti-aliasing and the characters are a single pixel thick with very stepped diagonals. IE is nicely anti-aliased and is using three pixels on most verticals. I find the new pages much easier to read on IE. They also display differently. On IE there is a dark line under the subject of the comment but just white space between comments. On Firefox the subject is not underlined but there is a faint line between comments.

So even on one type of computer we are not discussing the same thing. The new pages have driven me back the Microsoft !

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Oh boy. I hadn’t realised the differences between the browsers would be that dramatic. I use Chrome as a matter of course. I just had a look at the site on IE8 and it is nasty by comparison, really clumsy. I don’t know why anyone would prefer that.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Yep, NCfA, I’ve just had a look at it in IE8 and it’s horrific.

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

It’s quite possible that IE9 would be better of course.

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I don’t see any significant differences between Firefox 17.0.1 and IE9. The layout is about the same in Chrome too but I find the font much harder to read.

Part of how the font looks has to do with your ClearType settings in Windows 7. IE picks up your ClearType settings and Firefox is supposed to. Chrome does not. Firefox 17.0.1 looks the same as IE9 on my system but some folks have been having font issues with 17 and 17.0.1 (which was supposed to fix them). If things are hard to read in Firefox, try this fix and make sure you have ClearType set to your liking.
http://www.ghacks.net/2012/11/24/firefox-17-0-1-to-fix-blurry-font-issue-in-the-browser/

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

"I just had a look at the site on IE8 and it is nasty by comparison, really clumsy. I don’t know why anyone would prefer that." (NCFA). Because, in comparison, it looks feeble and hard to read on Firefox.

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Well using Chrome I find the text to be very sharp and clear. Of course that may not be the case with poorer vision but you can increase or decrease the font size by ctrl and + or -.

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Is it me or is the option to edit your posts gone? I noticed a few typos in a post and the ‘edit’ tab isn’t there anymore.

On a side note. I use Firefox 17. with the default settings and the site looks fine. In Chrome though the font is thin and light and therefore hard to read.

Addition - Nevermind about the edit tab. Just remembered there’s a time limit to it. That’ll teach me to wander off without double checking my post.

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

It may be how we have got the zoom set in the various browsers. For me Firefox 17.01 on Windows XP starts anti-aliasing the text only at the first increment of zoom. It is then easier to read because it is less ‘thin’ rather than because of the size.

OK, I will stick with a zoomed Firefox.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

midi still not working on safari or firefox Mac OS 10.8.2

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

I’m running Firefox 16.0.2 on Mac OSX 10.5.8 and I’m not having any trouble reading the site. I also have Opera and it looks okay on that too.

Mac is on OSX 10.8 now? Is it time to update? How do I do this?? Eeek!!

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Can’t agree Mark harmer and don’t believe everything you read on wikopedia - I’ve worked as a print professional and studied book design - the serifs help the eye "flow" across the page and make it less tiring to read which as I said is why most novels are set in serif typefaces.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

This has happened to me a couple of times - I click to preview my post and it reloads the page with no preview and no post. Meaning I have to rewrite the whole thing. Anyone else?

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Hi Jeremy
I can access The Session midi files from the Tunepal site which allows me to save Session midi files to my computer and, coincidentally, plays them automatically with media player .. but it’s still a shame I can’t do this directly from The Session.
I know that The Session is built around ABC but I doubt I’m the only user who had a substantial midi collection before discovering The Session and ABC. I continued expanding my midi collection from The Session (currently 1907 tunes) and have software to handle midis so don’t especially want to switch all files and software (and my head) to ABC. Only you know the technical difficulty of reinstating midi access so I’ll make this my last plea.
Either way..
thanks
Ken

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

"This has happened to me a couple of times - I click to preview my post and it reloads the page with no preview and no post. Meaning I have to rewrite the whole thing. Anyone else?"

Yes
Just happened for the second time with my "Midi" post. I played about abit with back arrows and it came back..
Phew.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

You can also generate your midi files by copying and pasting the ABCs into Concertina.net’s Tune-o-tron converter. This strikes me as by far the easiest way to achieve your end.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Hi @Gromit, I totally agree about text in books, but we’re talking about a website!

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

This lost post on preview/post business. It seems to be due to the old problem having been logged off. Now though the browser ‘Back’ takes us to the page with the edit box still having its contents. But although it shows us as logged in we are not. But we can copy the contents and paste them after logging in again.

At least, I think that is what just happened to me.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

malik, re vanishing posts , A solution is lazarus , both for chrome and firefox [,which has become unmanageable with merely 1GB of memory! sigh….] im trying out chrome again…

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I’ll look into that, Will. That happens to me pretty often on Craigslist because my session expired without me knowing so Lazarus seems like a good option.

David - My browser keeps me logged in. I posted a post or two minutes before so I was definitely logged in. I also posted after that without having to log in.

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Midi files Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

"You can also generate your midi files by copying and pasting the ABCs into Concertina.net’s Tune-o-tron converter. This strikes me as by far the easiest way to achieve your end.
# Posted by No Cause For Alarm 17 hours ago."

Thanks for suggestion No Cause For Alarm. I just tried Tune-o-tron again (someone recommended it to me a year or three back) and got it working this time. Don’t know why not before. 6 and two 3s vs. Tune pal for getting the midi file. Tune-o-tron does show the dots on the same page (which might help me to learn to read them by osmosis) but the Sessions dots are heaps clearer than they were now. If nothing else I now have two workarounds in case one crashes or folds. Who knows .. perhaps a "midi" button may yet appear on the Session.
Whatever .. thanks.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Your welcome Malik, it has saved me a lot of stress, my bestest browzer tool.

looks like there might be a need to reinstate an obscenity filter :-) Thanks To mr Foster for pointing that out…..
Really like the you tube player but Im astonished that google chrome wont let its users download from google you tube! So obviously i will scrap chrome . Sigh, any recommendations for a browser that wont hog all my 1Gb memory? WTF is up with these browsers? There is no added functionality but they are becoming unwieldy unworkable monsters!

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

1GB? Ouch. Have you considered upgrading? 4GB sticks only run about $20 these days. Browsers have a lot of improvements to their rendering engines to handle modern CSS, HTML, and image formats that increase memory footprint. Even so I’m sitting here with Firefox 17 at only about 170K. That’s pretty lean for a modern Windows application.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Yeah 1gb aint much these days. Imagine trying to surf the net now with 256k? It would be like watching cold molasses pour. I bought my laptop earlier this year with 4gb and I’m finding it ancient now. For the same price now most laptops come with 8gb or memory. If you have 1gb in the system, chances are it won’t hold 4gb. Generally, my firefox runs at 400k and the flash plugin (usually streaming music) running at another 200k. This seems to be the case for the past year, in my opinion Firefox is no longer the lean, mean browsing machine it was once claiming to be.

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Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Yeah, I use a netbook as Im on the road a lot with ryan air, and I was fed up with dragging a 17" laptop around with me! Would I be able to upgrade a samsung netbook memory I would for sure! cheers

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Samsung netbooks are upgradable to at least 2GB. I found all sorts of web pages with instructions when I checked with Google.

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

Duh, yes i guess I couldve asked google! thanks!

Re: Test drive the changes coming to The Session

If you’re not sure exactly which memory to buy, Crucial has a system scanner tool that will point you to exactly the right stick. I used it for my Asus EeePC and it worked like a charm.
http://www.crucial.com/systemscanner/

Also doublecheck your manual as to whether the netbook is upgradable to 2GB or 4GB. Some of the netbook chipsets can only handle 2GB max. After I got my memory, I found a YouTube video that showed me how to open the back of the netbook and replace the memory.