~ a balanced, measured, considerate and more open ended approach to this topic…
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa!!! For my previous sins of swagger 🙁 ~
https://thesession.org/discussions/31471
Well I have a relative who can play to a good standard on mandolin and never took one lesson ever . He got it as a gift and has been playing and practicing with out the aid of a teacher so i think the whole self taught thing is true , meaning learning by yourself with the aid of online resources or music on a CD . Of course one has to have resources such as the session , YouTube, music books or fingering charts to learn so technically you aren’t teaching yourself how to play completely on your own , but that’s just my opinion.
Learning to play without formal instruction from a teacher.
sometimes attending workshops, sometimes not.
Personally, I dislike the term ‘self-taught’ because it fails to give credit to all the listening you have to do to pick up this style of music. If you learn sitar listening to Ravi Shankar, or jazz piano listening to Thelonious Monk, you have to credit those individuals for shaping your musical thought whether you ever sat down in a room with them or not. Same with hearing Martin Hayes or Tommy Peoples or Matt Molloy or whoever. In my experience, often those who use the term ‘self-taught’ will have an inflated view of ‘self’ that fails to acknowledge, not only those whom they listened to and emulated, but those who helped them and encouraged them along the way. ‘No man is an island’.
It means learning to do something the way you want to do it by any available means, as opposed to faithfully (or blindly) following set instructions from a third party.
Whether it is a good or bad thing seems to me to depend solely on the outcome, and, of course, the subject: I would hesitate before looking for a self-taught brain-surgeon; but a unicyclist who had just cycled the length of the country would not be ruled out on the grounds that he was self-taught.
tdrury -
what if you listened to more than one artist? when somebody asks how/where you learned, are you still expected to rattle off all 15-20 sources that you like to listen to to help you learn? what if you accidentally forget one or two?
"Largely self taught" would seem like a reasonable compromise to me. I am sure that "doing singing" at primary school - cross-legged on the floor, the words hung over the blackboard, Miss Smith on piano - played a part. But where to you draw the line ?
Currently I am most appreciative of experienced players who take the trouble to put their way with tunes on the web, three of whom (one Irish, one Scottish, one English) have posted on this forum in the last couple of weeks.
To be able to play Irish music, it’s probably about 80% via a learning process (eg copying) and 20% via a teaching process……and of the people who are self taught, the maximum they could possible achieve without external influence, I would say is 70% (unless they lived in an igloo)
and those people that have an external teacher, they probably have about 30% (of the 20%) that is self taught…
Therefore this whole subject of self taught represents about 8 — 10% of the overall effort, so it’s relatively insignificant in the scheme of things.
I have a excel spreadsheet if you want.
My music theory teacher ones observed that many of his students (he is also a flute teacher) were shocked at first at how little he actually taught them and how much it was up to them to practice alone. "The point is" he said "music is always self studied".
To reject outside influence on our music, or any part of our personal achievements sounds weird to say the least, specially when playing a traditional style like Celtic music.
Dont know about this % stuff though. How many % of your language you learned from you mother as opposed to your teachers I wonder.
The most exciting thing of all is to keep learning and developing, the advent of the computer and you tube videos is IN MY OPINION really helpful.
In my profile I’ve said that I’m untutored. I’ve never had a lesson in harmonica playing in my life. I suppose that is untutored. As for learning this music, I don’t live in an area where I can get to that many gigs or what purists might call real Irish sessions, but I have been to a few, and I can play hundreds of tunes that I’ve picked up this way or that - practically always by ear. I suppose self-taught might mean you like the stuff you play, you listened to it a lot and picked up the finer points that way, as well as picking up tunes. Self-motivated or self-taught? Dunno!
Does perusing thesession.org discussions count as educational experience? 😉
"Does perusing thesession.org discussions count as educational experience?"
Absolutely, You could really make a giant step backward, listening to some of the advice on here…
Sorry, I don’t have any precentages this time…
In my opinion, being taught implies that it has been a two way process between a teacher and student. To teach someone surely means that one must be aware that he/she is communicating information to the other party. However, many of us learn from listening to other musicians, from CDs, books, and even "watching a player’s fingers" without their knowledge.
So, maybe "self learning" is a more appropriate description?
As I said elsewhere, you have to learn the basics(at least) from other source before you can go about teaching yourself properly. Yes, you can work things out for yourself" to a great extent but, obviously, the skills to do this are dependent on what you’ve actually learned previously. Of course, this need not be formal tuition.
I’d say that I was mostly "self taught" but I have had tuition in certain areas, of course. I was shown a few chords on the guitar in school and even went to one or two private lessons but the bulk of what I learned was from tutor books, by ear, or I just worked out. Until I started going to Scots Music Group classes, I couldn’t even read music which is a bit ironic as their policy is to discourage you from doing this. However, I found that I had to teach myself to do this to keep up with some of the "smart asses" there!
As for the mandolin, I have never had any lessons at all although I’ve been to a few workshops. However, I did go to fiddle classes and also had a few private lessons. I also attended mixed instruments classes over the years and much of this knowledge and experience was easily transferable to instruments such as mandolin, tenor banjo, mandola and so on.
More recently, I’ve also been receiving a certain amount of tuition on instruments such as piano accordion, ukelele, harp but I still do a lot of work on these instruments myself. Unfortunately, I’m often at odds with my tutors!
🙂
Well, Al, it’s a bit like using wiki. In order to learn effectively from wiki you have to know a little first. You need to have nicely-developed critical faculties and always be ready to demand more evidence and know how to find it. I do think a few people here down the years have been too ready to misrepresent themselves as gurus and proffer "advice" that isn’t very good. Having said that, there are other people definitely well worth listening to (though, sadly in my opinion, the best of ‘em is on a year’s sabbatical, and another good bloke, though he and I went through a phase of not getting on very well, seems to have disappeared altogether). A good dose of scepticism comes in handy at all times. Naturally, any advice I hand out on harmonica playing is 110% reliable! D-)
Cor, bad grammar inside those brackets there…
"on a year’s sabbatical,"
A remarkable way to use an apostrophe.
Huh? What’s wrong with it?
I can’t see any problem either.
Because it is adjectival not possessive, neither are you replacing a missing letter.
A year’s sabbatical i.e. a sabbatical of one year, perfectly OK.
I don’t know if everyone caught it, but I liked Weejie’s comment on another thread, where someone suggested a self tuning bodhran, and he said that the instrument would be ‘self-taut.’ 😉
Hey Al! I already mentioned that earlier in this thread! But I must give you credit because you spotted it just before me. Very funny though (but maybe you had to be there?)
I think you could be up thingie creek sans paddle, Mr Kerryman! Heheh…
Actually, Kerryman’s assertion is quite pertinent to this thread. "A year’s sabbatical" isn’t grammatically correct in the original use of the word "sabbatical". It was an adjective "pertaining to the sabbath", a "sabbatical year" being "the seventh year, prescribed by the Mosaic law to be observed as a ‘Sabbath’ in which the land was to remain untilled and all debtors and Israelitish slaves were to be released" (OED). This idea was adopted by US educational institutions where college professors, or heads of departments could take a year’s leave every seven years, and the concept spread to institiutions elsewhere, and the seven year ‘clause’ was not necessarily adopted with it.
"A year’s sabbatical", in this sense, would be rather like saying "self suicide" (though not synonymous!), and it would also be grammatically incorrect ("sabbatical" being an adjective, and used as a shortened form of "sabbatical year").
Through usage, the word ‘sabbatical’ has come to mean a period of leave from other establishments, including corporations, and not necessarily a period of a year. Some might say that it would be more correct to say "six month sabbatical" or "year sabbatical" etc, rather than place the period (no, I don’t mean full stop) in the genitive. However, common usage as a noun might allow for the use of the genitive when stating the period.
"Self tuition" might also be considered a contradiction in terms, but it is a frequently used expression and (most) people understand its meaning.
Perhaps Kerryman was dropping a hint.
k’s sake. Nobody cares. Academics I know are likely to say a year’s sabbatical. Anyway…..
"Nobody cares"
Kerryman did. Does anyone take the expression "self-taught" literally?
Round here, and quite a few other places, they would say, with grammatical correctness in the local dialect, "he learned himself to play the …"
Some people might still take issue with that, David. Pointing out the ‘passive tutors’ who assisted the learning.
Yes, I was just stirring the mud with the usage of "learned" for "taught".
In (bokmål) Norwegian:
En lærer - a teacher.
Jeg lærer meg - I am learning.
Å lære - to teach.
Å lære - to learn.
This is a good topic, as I have felt the same way so many times in my life hearing people talk about being "self-taught." I never use the phrase "I’m self-taught" for all the reasons you list at the beginning of your other post, even though I’ve unfortunately had to rely on a lot of "self-teaching" to get to where I am. I live in a remote region when it comes to trad. Some people use the phrase because they’re not at thoughtful as you or I and thus could be meaning several things in they are not conscious of. For example I saw this YouTube clip of a girl playing bad tunes and bragging to others in the thread about being "self-taught"- we’ve all seen this. On the other hand I was at an open-mic recently where this kid had chops and a crappy guitar, and made some really beautiful music. Speaking to him afterwards he used the phrase in a sheepish, roundabout way and you could tell he was saying something totally different.
There is something to be said for the extraordinary effort some great musicians have to put forth in order to achieve their deft, who have no good instruments, mentors, tutors, sessions, gurus, or even musical friends nearby to help them edify their musicianship. When I see some of these modest players who play well, and I know they didn’t have these resources, but kept on with their passion to achieve great things, I find them uniquely "good." Juxtapose that with some of the pricks we may know who are brilliant players, but who grew up with all the resources right at their finger tips like spoiled rich kids. Music seems to be inextricably linked to the humans playing it, so the effort or the heart matters in what comes across.
"Nobody cares" ? Perhaps you don’t, Key Maniac Lad, but some of us do. It’s a brain thing.
Out of interest, in the north of England it is common to say ‘learn yourself’ e.g. some manners. It seems the Norse invaders gave us more than our good looks and sunny disposition.
"This idea was adopted by US educational institutions where college professors, or heads of departments could take a year’s leave every seven years, and the concept spread to institiutions elsewhere, and the seven year ‘clause’ was not necessarily adopted with it. "
The sabbatical year was part of the system certainly in Cambridge, and presumably other European universities, long before America was invented. The practice dates back to the middle ages, when the teaching staff were monks. They were excused teaching so that they could devote themselves to religious duties for one year in seven.
Thanks for that very good post, JJShea.
"The sabbatical year was part of the system certainly in Cambridge, and presumably other European universities, long before America was invented. The practice dates back to the middle ages, when the teaching staff were monks. They were excused teaching so that they could devote themselves to religious duties for one year in seven."
Skreech, I was referring to the word, not the practice. If you can provide any evidence that the word "sabbatical" was used to describe a year which tutors took off (as opposed to clergy - the practice in Abrahamic faiths goes back way before Cambridge was invented) in every seven in order to devote time to their faith, then I suggest you contact the OED. I’ll quote from there directly:
"c. orig. U.S. Designating a period of leave from duty granted to university teachers at certain intervals (orig. every seven years) for the purposes of study and travel; spec. in sabbatical year (cf. sense A. 2a). Now freq. used transf. of rest or absence from other occupations, professions, or activities. Also sabbatical officer, one granted sabbatical leave (from work or study) for the performance of a certain office."
The earliest record in the US is at Harvard in 1880:
"[1880 Ann. Rep. Pres. & Treas. of Harvard Coll. 1879–80 19 The Corporation adopted, on the 31st of May, 1880, new rules with regard to leave of absence for professors and assistant professors… The Corporation have decided that they will grant occasional leave of absence for one year on half-pay, provided that no professor have such leave oftener than once in seven years.] "
So, do contact the OED. I’m sure they would be only to pleased to amend their entry. Post it on here too. I would be interested.
"It seems the Norse invaders gave us more than our good looks and sunny disposition."
Yep, it’s nice to see that the reflexive pronoun is still going strong in these islands.
Ah, that owld "sabbatical" chestnut.
I used the word as a wry euphemism for the fact that the chap had been banned. Had I simply said that he is now on a sabbatical it would not have conveyed the required point that it was for quite a long time. I can imagine someone not already apprised of the facts asking me "how long for?" had I left out "year’s". The word is, these days, frequently used detached from its sense of "for a year" or "every seventh year" so, using it the way I did, I was following a modern trend. I don’t think that using "sabbatical" the way I did represents a degradation of language (and I am a bit of a vigilante when it comes to such things), just an evolution. So I’m unapologetic and I’ll do it again!
And I do take the point of an adjective evolving into an noun. I think that’s OK too.
It appears that you are a bit of a radical, Steve.
Good one, Weejie.
Dictionaries follow usage. I know people who have work contracts with clauses using "sabattical" that relate to leaves of absence of less than a year more frequently that 1 in 7 years. Steve’s "modern trend". I guess it saves having to think up a new term for the same thing with different parameters.
Or maybe it is loose usage by self-taught people.
Yep, the OED does suggest that the 7 year ‘clause’ and the one year period are no longer ‘statutory’.
I’m waiting for ‘tautology’ to come into the equation - or synonyms to be brought into the discussion.
😏 Dunno, but it could have been invented for the yellow board.
There you go!
(edits crossing posts again)
I think we should remember that we can write well in a fairly informal way on a message board without necessarily having to conform to the highest standards required in more formal writing. Being able to do that lets us off the hook of the sort of grammar terrorism that would prevent our putting our points across with reasonable facility. On the whole, this is a relatively "literate" board in that respect compared to one or two others I can think of.
"I guess it saves having to think up a new term for the same thing with different parameters. "
Maybe, but at least I thought up a more colourful way of putting it than "he’s been banned for a year!"
I think it was 11 months 😛
Well spotted!
It simply means - you’ve not had any lessons.
My dog’s never had any lessons.
What does this mean? What does it mean to me?
It means one taught oneself "x", in the context of the board I’d take that to mean; one taught oneself to play.
It may just mean that Will Self was once a teacher.
Ha! Just found out I got a little course at York coming up next month…ie, a week’s sabbatical. It’s a brain thing. 🙂 ….well, neuroscience does come into it…..
My wife’s always complaining that I get a little coarse.
"My dog’s never had any lessons."
My dog’s got no nose.
Ha ha Steve 🙂
When did this thread become a grammar tutorial?
Well, Al, you could just stay in self-taughtsville or you could find the path to enlightenment. Or take a year’s sabbatical.
If you make a grammatical mistake all of you own doing, is it an instance of self-taut?
No. Self-tort; a fee will be exacted.
Dammit, got that one arse about face! Yikes!! Maybe the Grauniad will employ me. That’s the kind of error they simply love apologising for.
Never mind sabbaticals, we need weejie to give a definitive definition of ‘taught’. Because as far as I am aware ‘to teach’ means to pass on information or knowledge. Now you can’t really pass on knowledge to yourself, so no one can be self-taught. Perhaps those of us who picked up instruments without the benefit of a teacher should describe ourselves more accurately as ‘un-taught’?
It’s conceivable to gain knowledge through personal experience.
Somewhere I once read that the person who teaches themselves learns from an ignorant person. When you think about it, that makes a good bit of sense. I have spent years gleaning little bits here and there, but if I had it to do all over, I would rather have a teacher and mentor showing me the way.
You can certainly learn on your own, but learning isn’t the same as being taught. I think that to be taught there has to be a teacher passing on their knowledge or experience.
You can learn things you didn’t know before, but you can’t teach yourself anything that you don’t already know.
Or perhaps, to please the grammar police, I should have phrased that first line, "…teaches themself…" But then again, isn’t the word ‘them’ more correctly plural? Perhaps I should have used ‘himself or herself,’ which is singular, but I always found awkward.
Themself is correct The ‘them’ isn’t plural in this instance, it is the third person singular of indeterminate gendre.
You’re always going to be ignorant of things you don’t know. I’ve yet to meet a person who knows everything.
As long as one is not stupid, there’s hope.
;)
"The trouble with the world is that the ignorant are cocksure, while the intelligent are full of doubt"
(Bertrand Russell).
Actually I like Steve Shaw’s distinction between being tutored, and so-called ‘self taught’. Untutored sits better with me. Still, in academia you have to acknowledge your sources. Unfortunately outside of academia my learning sources are mostly forgotten, or dead, or not ever really realised and appreciated at the time. Sometimes they are just too personal to mention (I’ve learned a lot from individuals on this site). But whatever, I have extreme gratitude and would only cringe if I ever heard myself say that I’m self taught.
"Themself is correct The ‘them’ isn’t plural in this instance, it is the third person singular of indeterminate gendre"
Thanks Skreech, you are so right! It makes me mad when my spelling checker keeps insisting that I don’t know what I’m talking about. (I mean, really… how does it know this?)
"we need weejie to give a definitive definition of ‘taught’."
That’s just it. The etymology of the word (in the infinitive, rather than past tense) would define it as "to show", but "self-taught", although seemingly self-contradictory, is an acceptable expression with a meaning identical to that of the expression that Dave gave us earlier with "learned himself". Usage can alter the literal in some instances.
At least Norwegians don’t have a problem with it - but then again, you can stress the "self" aspect of the learning - "å lære seg selv". I hope there’s not a forum across the North Sea where a similar topic is being debated.
I’ve got used to thinking that it’s only our lot who are obsessed with such things.
It is often said that the art of tuition is to show the pupil how to learn. Some people work it out by themselves, and it might involve a degree of observation and emulation, or it could be down to trial and error, depending on the circumstances. The "self" aspect is one of determination along with perseverance. Hopefully, threads like this won’t discourage that.
I think "themselves" is correct. It’s one of those delicious unresolved issues in English: you don’t want to be writing "himself or herself" all the time, but there isn’t really a satisfactory singular-sounding alternative. "Using "them" or "they" as singular has a long and respectable track record, but I don’t think there’s any point muddling things with "themself". If it’s plural acting as singular, go the whole hog and make it all plural, "themselves". Well that’s what I think anyway!
I consider myself to be self-taught. I don’t say it to claim bragging rights, it’s simply a statement of fact. It was largely a question of necessity, as I simply did not know where to get tuition on the instruments I play.
That’s not to say I’ve never had any lessons. I did take recorder classes as part of a group at primary school. Someone showed me a few chords on guitar, and I then learned to play with the help of a book. However to say that Bert Weedon taught me to play guitar would give entirely the wrong impression.
My point is that formal lessons from another person, whether one-to-one or as part of a class, have played a very small part in my musical education. Most of what I know I’ve worked out for myself, but in doing this I’ve relied on the use of books, conversations with other players, or sitting at performers’ feet and watching their hands very closely, as well as simple trial and error. I don’t think this undermines my claim to be ‘self-taught’ or contradicts what most people would understand by the term.
Neither do I think this fails to give credit to my wider influences, which include everyone I’ve ever listened to and everyone I’ve ever played with. However this broader experience is part of everyone’s musical education, whether or not they’ve been formally tutored. No one can become a musician just by having lessons, no matter how brilliant their teacher may be.
Well said Howard.
"The ‘self’ aspect is one of determination along with perseverance." ~ Weejie
If anybody ever asks me I think I’ll avoid the question by responding with the truth, i.e., I’m still learning!
That is one fabulous answer, Gobby.
Gobby, looking at your earlier post, Bertrand Russell, ‘the ignorant are cocksure, the intelligent are full of doubt’, I can’t help thinking of Yeats in ‘The Second Coming’ - ‘The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity’ - as the prelude to the Apocalypse.
Or the Arabic proverb:
He who knows & knows he knows - he is a wise man, seek him.
He who knows & knows not he knows - he is asleep, wake him.
He who knows not & knows he knows not - he is a child, teach him.
But he who knows not & knows not he knows not - he is a fool, shun him.
Which is why most of us, if asked, would prefer to run ourselves down rather than puff ourselves up.
Yes, that kind of relates to my previous response, especially the "He who knows & knows not he knows - he is asleep, wake him."… because I thought of my answer completeley by myself, after spending a sleepless night thinking about what you lot are teaching me here.
But what was it that Mark Twain is quoted as saying on the subject ?
Mark Who?
Well I am Self Taught, ie- no teacher.
But here’s Who, I watched and listened to, from when I started to the present Day.
jim,,,
Well First, its the Dubliner’s done it for me,
at first I just listened to the songs
and skipped over all those Diddle Diddle tunes : )
Then afterward’s it became thes other way around !
Andy Dickson was the First Hero,,, Fiddler with Cap !
http://youtu.be/Mc97M8gNlVs
Then these in Order of ‘Time’ - LOL.
Then I ran about the ‘Fleadh’s’ with these guy’s -
Desi Wilkinson, Dermy Diamond, Tara Bingham
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbmggMOedm0
Later These One’s - Frankie Kennedy & Mairead Mooney
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5nHsW499dU
Then these One’s - Gerry & Eilish O’Connor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD1eqDIQvz8
Influanced big time by these Guy’s -
Tommy Peoples
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAbNV3BaORI
Maurice Lennon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvdqTMdaquc
Frankie Gavin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SoO-mACx1U
Ben Lennon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80Z0P2bcbr8
And now I am Very Big Into This Man’s Music -
Charlie Lennon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWX4cDxN_a4
jim,,,
But don’t you ever wake up in the middle of the night with somebody’s playing going through your head and realise something like, ‘Oh right, I could try it like that’? And the next day you find you’ve made a big step ahead? I mean, I’ve learned from endless people that I couldn’t even list and sometimes don’t even know. If I were to go back to my first truly remembered music teacher it would be my postman who patiently taught me to whistle when I was five years old (the whistling postman).
FIDDLE4- thank you for posting that Ben Lennon clip as you unintentionally reunited me with a few of my early musical influences from a crazy trip to Limerick back in my early 20’s. Man, that was a fun time- and often humbling- but, very fun. Gerry McNamara and Tony O’Connell were two regulars, and maybe still are, down at Dolan’s and Nancy Blake’s in Limerick. There are two fine players I’m still trying to find out in cyberland that have eluded me, that I spent more time with and who were a great encouragement. "Birmingham Dave" on mandolin and his buddy Andy from the Isle of Man…would love to find those fellows someday. Thanks again.
Two clips especially for Gobby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W10ILSTzjA
Thanks Jim for those clips — you’ve given me a valuable clue: — the first tune in that Altan clip is the tune that is playing in the pub "The Steinway Beer Garden" in a video game, Grand Theft Auto, when you go in for a game of darts (I lead a strange life). I’ve been trying to find the name for years without success, so if anyone knows, I would be most appreciative.
Johnny Jay, thanks for those. I genuinely enjoyed Allan Smethhurst (a real singing postman). I haven’t heard him since I was a kid (having left the U.K in 65). Cheers.
Johnny Jay, thanks for those. I genuinely enjoyed Allan Smethhurst (a real singing postman). I haven’t heard him since I was a kid (having left the U.K in 65). Cheers.
I was teaching myself a lot about music until someone decided to teach me that correcting grammar in a discussion is really rude and boring. So I will just move on to further my education
Self-direction is the key surely? You could use information from books or even attend some kind of class as well as learning by ear from others - but you’d still be self taught because you’re self-directed. You don’t have to conform to the rules of others. You can ignore half what a teacher says. You don’t care about passing exams. You can put the apostrophe’s wherever you damn well like.
‘You can put the apostrophe’s wherever you damn well like.’
You just did, Gallopede.
This discussion is leading me to be increasingly sympathetic to the character of the autodidact in Sartre’s ‘La Nausée’.
People who like this discussion may like:
https://thesession.org/discussions/31519 (self-taught musician wins award as tutor - students give lots of good reasons for having a teacher)
Punctuation on this thread appears to resemble anarchy, how about you can put the ap’os’trophes, where you damn well like.
Elvish ‘unctuation?
