New Fiddle Player!

Hi All. I’d like to introduce myself here and maybe get some tips from more experienced members.

Ive been playing guitar since i was 12 (about 10 years), but last year i picked up mandolin. That has opened up many doors for me. I started playing bluegrass but quickly found out that i much prefer the old time tradition. After awhile i realized that many of my favorite old time fiddle tunes were indeed irish tunes, so i started to explore that and i think ive really found my musical home somewhere between old time and irish traditional music.

Naturally after playing the mandolin for awhile i had an urge to take up fiddle. Honestly ive really suprised myself, im only 5 days into learning and have taken one lesson, and im actually somewhat pleased with what im hearing. Im able to play many of the tunes i know from the mandolin on my fiddle already, and i actually quite enjoy practicing. I thought it would take a very long time before i could even play a tune. My teacher also says im doing really well for how little time ive had with the fiddle.

I have a couple of questions about tone though. Although im playing the right notes and i have decent intonation. I cant seem to get a good nice sounding tone out of my instrument. When my teacher hits just one sustained note, it sounds beautiful. Not so much with me, i was wondering how i can work on that.

Im sure at least some of it is that she most likely has a nice violin, but i know mine can sound better than what i get out of it. I have a scott cao scotti fiddle, with helicore strings. Im thinking about trying some different strings, that may be a futile effort if my technique isnt there yet, but strings are something that i really love to mess around with on other instruments so id like to try at least one other set. Probably either Jagars or Larsens. Im looking for a smoother darker tone, but i do want to stick with steel.

Thanks if you took the time to read all that, Any tips, recommendations, or help with anything related to fiddle is welcome as well. I may try to post a recording of a tune that i play when i get home.

If you have a look at the animation at the right of this page
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/Bows.html
you will see (read it all if you wish 🙂 ) that the string is made to move by a series of stick-slip effects which results from the physical properties of a rosined bow.
Now have a look at this, and imagine what would happen if the slipping didn’t coincide with the sideways motion of the string --

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JeyiM0YNo4

play video

You will see that it is easy for the bow and the string to cancel each other out, rather than reinforce each other. The trouble is it all happens very fast, and it is very easy to get it wrong.
If you have good eyesight, you can look along the string as you are bowing it -- the G is easiest -- an see how far from side to side it is travelling. Get this as wide as possible by varying bow pressure, speed, position and direction (not much else can be changed) and try to hold it there. You will hear the difference in tone quality, but keeping it going is the bit that needs practise and experience.
Tiny variations initiated by sensory feed-back after long practise.
Easy. 🙂

wow! very interesting, i will definitley try that. I do indeed notice when my g string is traveling side to side, but ive never seen it get to such a wide range (though i realize in real time it would be impossible to see just how wide it is traveling). That is something for me to work with. Thank you very much!

Ive also found visualization to really help with tone on any instrument (especially violin) so this will be something that i can work on visualizing in my head

I’m traveling down this very same road, man. Well, not exactly the same:P been playing mandolin for a year.
Am now picking up fiddle and it’s interesting. Best of luck!

Indeed very similar blindbard. I read your thread about fiddling awhile back. Good info there.

Funny, I tried to pick up the fiddle awhile back (before I played mandolin) and I failed miserably, I didn’t know what kind of music I wanted to play, and I certainly didn’t know the notes on the fingerboard. It wasn’t fun at all

This time I know just enough to keep me encouraged and stick with it. Plus I know tons of tunes from mandolin that I can transfer over. It’s been lots of fun so far

New Fiddler’s Club!!!

seriously, it’s a roller coaster ride. Still struggling with tone production myself. I highly recommend recording yourself, making videos, watching and listening to them without fear. Post them here for crits--I have received some great advice here (still trying to put it to use.)

Best of luck!

ff

Hope this Video I made once, might help.
I to started from Mandolin to Fiddle just like you.
But it was Banjo-Mandolin 😉
Still as you say, same fingering, Getting Tone, using a very slight Vibarato.
Is indeed harder to do on fast tune’s, but start first on a Jig or
slow played Slipjig. It’s just take time .
Although, learning Fiddle, is much easier than understanding my accent 🙂
f4
http://vimeo.com/41731130

On a less theoretical note (hah!), I recommend practicing long, smooth bow strokes on open strings. Use the whole bow for each stroke, and let it move fairly fast to begin with-- it’s easier to produce a good sound with a fast bow than with a slow one. Experiment with how much pressure you’re putting on the string until you find a pressure that sounds good to you. Work on producing an even sound over the whole length of the bow, both up and down. When you’re comfortable with that, start slowing down the bow. Eventually, you’ll be able to produce an even tone at any speed, in any direction, with any part of the bow. Good luck!

If you want to help you fiddle playing come on much more.
Try this Woman idea’s, especially on the Right and Left Hand/Arm movment’s etc.
Don’t worry about her Pa, Pa’s , and singing the note’s.
What she say’s ‘ Really ’ helped me a lot, in Traditional Music. esp ‘ Tone ’
Take it from the Gypsy’s, likely why there among the Best Fiddler’s in the World.
Her book on this subject, is good too.
f4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOE0xH88ESE&list=PLBDF845B2B698DA77

play video

Thanks fiddle4

I wish I could hear her though, it’s very hard to make out what she is saying. It’s not so much her accent but that she’s very quiet in the audio mix, I’ll have to try when I have access to some louder speakers.

I said I would post a recording, so here it is. Like I said I think it’s really good for having a couple of days.

I might have been going faster than I really should, I’m just trying to work on controlling my bow, that’s what’s giving me the most problems

http://soundcloud.com/user715050806/swallow-tail/s-9U8sO

I love criticism both positive and negative, so please share! Thanks if you listened, I know listening to a beginner fiddler play is not what most people like to do so I appreciate anyone who actually did listen to it

🙂

Overall. it’s pretty amazing for the amount of time you;ve been playing. Your tone isn’t as bad as you think, especiallty for trad. I would say that I think you need to learn a bit more about Irish ornamentation(articulation) and there are points where you get out of time. Also sometimes your string crossing could be cleaner, but all this will come with time/listenimg/practice. You’ve certainly made a good start.

TexasRed : < I wish I could hear her though >
There are subtitles at the bottom, just give it
a wee minute to come on .‘ Kato Havas ’ is Hungerian .
* Bio. 1st link.
http://www.katohavas.com/page4.html
http://katohavas.com/
f4

I agree with 5string that your tone is not as bad as you seem to think. Given that it sounds worse to your ear than to someone who is a few feet away, and it has survived the mastications of the recording and uploading processes, I wouldn’t worry too much about tone.
Like most beginners, your left and right hands are not in synch. You often start to bow a note before or after your left hand is in position, which leads to a sort of ‘double start’ to some of the notes. As long as you are aware of it, it will eventually sort itself out -- it’s the ‘thinking time’ needed for your brain to keep track of the various positions, speeds and directions of the requisite body parts. Don’t forget to breathe as well.
Otherwise, well done. Keep posting and listening to your own recordings, and pretty soon you’ll have them dancing in the Isles (I just made that up).

I don’t recommend blaming your instrument. The vast majority of your bad sound is that you aren’t very good yet. Fortunately, that can be fixed by proper practice. Need proof? Ask your teacher to play your fiddle.

Thanks guys. There’s also road to lisdoonvarna and red haired boy on that soundcloud profile.

Gam I’m very aware of the problem your talking about. If you listen to red haired boy (well for the a part at least) it seems like the notes flow together better. You don’t hear that second start like you say. Does anyone happen to know any exercises to help me work on getting my bow and my noting hand in sync?

Thanks fiddle4 I’m going to watch that again now.

And you are right of course hot sauce, like I said I just know I’m not making my fiddle sound as good as it can. My teacher has a wonderful tone, but he started out playing classical for years so I might have a more traditional tone :P

btw does anyone have an album they would like to recommend to me? preferrably on itunes.

I really like albums that arent too cluttered so that i can hear what the fiddle is doing. I have Martin Hayes self titled album, very good so far. But thats about it.

https://itunes.apple.com/ie/album/ego-trip/id431715032

thanks! ive seen that one recommended here before, ill have to check it out.

its always helped me in learning an instrument to do as much listening as possible. I truthfully havent listened to that much ITM music, ive only played the tunes thus far

gam beat me to it; all you could want from a fiddle recording

Hi TexasRed,

I think you’re doing pretty well for the length of time you’ve been playing. No doubt your teacher will help you greatly, but since you asked, here are some observations / recommendations from me (a teacher too).

First comment I’d make about general tone - you said your teacher has a wonderful tone, probably achieved through good classical training. The principles and mechanics of producing a good tone are the same for playing any genre of music, and Irish trad is no different, regardless of what anyone may tell you. If you can get a good tone at base level, then you can ‘rough it up’ if you so wish. It doesn’t work the other way round, though 🙂

About your left/right hand mis-coordination - it sounds like it’s happening more on string crossing than anywhere else. The note from the previous string is still sounding while you are crossing over to the next string to play the next note, when the two notes should be distinct.

There’s a little isolation exercise you could try. Focussing solely on left/right hand coordination, with both hands doing as little as possible.

A simple scale in D major - starting on the open D-string, play D-E-F#G, then cross to the A-string, and play A-B-C#D. Very simple, but the point is you need to make a clean crossing from one string to the next. So clean that a listener can’t tell you’ve crossed a string … now do the same thing going back down the scale.

Now try more crossings - D-A-E-A-F#-A-G-A G-A-F#-A-E-A-D-A

You could try recording that and playing it back - see how clean you can get it. Remember - your listener should not be able to tell that you’ve moved to another string. Ever. 🙂

I reckon there are enough string crossings built into the tunes themselves that one could comfortably bypass scales altogether. As a well respected teacher of the music once pointed out, a scale is really just a crap tune. 😉

And yes, Ego Trip is a desert island pick!

[*As a well respected teacher of the music once pointed out, a scale is really just a crap tune.*]

You mean a well-respected comedian 🙂

thanks for the Kato Havas clips Jim[fiddle4], excellent stuff .

Wow thanks Jim! That’s the kind of criticism I was looking for.

I have to say I’ve gotten quite a bit better already. I felt like I was really burning it today practicing. The fiddle is the most fun instrument I’ve picked up. And that’s saying something as I’ve spent almost my whole life picking.

I’ve also found out I really enjoy a gold e string. Makes for a much cleaner e string

…oh, and I meant to add … if you play around the mid-point of the bow, it should make things easier (if you hadn’t already worked that out) !

thanks jim. my teacher said the same thing. Said i was stretching too much to play with the tip of my bow. It did help, i like the sound up there by the tip but she said i could get to that after id become a little better with basic bowing

Further to Jim’s advice, playing too much in the upper third of the bow won’t help you to learn to produce a good tone that carries. Playing at the tip naturally produces a quiet tone - generally too quiet for folk music, imo - so use the middle third as much as possible. Then you’ll get the best balance between tone and bow control.

Another point that occurs to me. Sometimes you’ll see fiddle players holding the bow not at the frog but way up the stick. My advice is not to copy this exaggerated bow hold unless you’re really advanced, and then you’ll probably not find any good reason to do it. What is sometimes seen, though, is a hold that is a short way up the stick - by no more than the width of the thumb at the most. This particular hold may have certain advantages for some players in some types of playing, but even then it’s debatable. If you see a shortened bow hold being used it could be an indication that the player has not yet fully mastered control of the balance of the bow by using the fingers; or it could be that he is trying to cope with a bow that has poor balance (in which case the remedy is obvious).

What isn’t sometimes appreciated is that if the bow is held too far up the stick - and I’ve seen instances where it was being held a third of the way up the stick(!) - then the volume of tone that can be produced is dramatically reduced. Not only that but there will be other serious limitations on what can be done with the bow. It’s worth noting that the present violin bow was designed 200+ years ago and the placements of the leather thumb grip and the wire winding on the stick right down by the frog were chosen for very good reasons.

From Trevor’s comments above, plus the recent thread "Tin whistle to help playing other instruments‘’ to me, highlights the divide between the music (Irish traditional) and the instrument (fiddle, aka violin).

Players who hold the bow 1/3 way up the stick can still make a good sound playing ‘the tunes’, but it limits the player in what other music they could otherwise play well. Even slow airs suffer (notes cut short because the bow is effectively shortened).

Just for starters 🙂

Kato Havas is great! I was fortunate to attend a few of her weeklong workshops in the US before she ‘retired’ at 80 from traveling the world. She is now about 94. She was born in Transylvania, and moved to England when she was about 20. OBE = Order of the British Empire, a great honor for her great work.

I recommend her Video (DVD) that can be purchased from her website katohavas.com

For playing classical and folk musics in the ‘time-honored’ physical way, her New Approach to Violin Playing is the best way. The most relaxed, the most musical.

I personally play in a (‘my’) new physical way that is very different than this, some of which I have described in posts here. I believe it is more released and more musical than the ‘time-honored’ way. I hope to make a DVD about this soon. I will let you know when it is available.

To directly address the OP in the moment:
I could not connect to hear your recordings.
With experiment, you will notice that you create better tone playing lower notes when your bow speed is slower, and for higher notes when your bow speed is faster. This relates to the speed of the vibrations you are producing at different pitches. (I am not the first person to recommend this.) The most common mistake is to play too slow a bow for higher notes, which constricts the sound. Experiment with doubling your bow speed at each octave, for example: ‘a’ on the G string, ‘a’ on D or open A string (twice as fast), ‘a’ on E string (4x as fast).

The more you relax (release) the bigger and more musical your sound is naturally. Tensions and muscular playing make the sound loudest to your ears, but smallest to your audience’s perception. You can never really hear your own sound.

Happy musicmaking,
vlnplyr

Kato Havas is great! I was fortunate to attend a few of her weeklong workshops in the US before she ‘retired’ at 80 from traveling the world. She is now about 94. She was born in Transylvania, and moved to England when she was about 20. OBE = Order of the British Empire, a great honor for her great work.

I recommend her Video (DVD) that can be purchased from her website katohavas.com

For playing classical and folk musics in the ‘time-honored’ physical way, her New Approach to Violin Playing is the best way. The most relaxed, the most musical.

I personally play in a (‘my’) new physical way that is very different than this, some of which I have described in posts here. I believe it is more released and more musical than the ‘time-honored’ way. I hope to make a DVD about this soon. I will let you know when it is available.

To directly address the OP in the moment:
I could not connect to hear your recordings.
With experiment, you will notice that you create better tone playing lower notes when your bow speed is slower, and for higher notes when your bow speed is faster. This relates to the speed of the vibrations you are producing at different pitches. (I am not the first person to recommend this.) The most common mistake is to play too slow a bow for higher notes, which constricts the sound. Experiment with doubling your bow speed at each octave, for example: ‘a’ on the G string, ‘a’ on D or open A string (twice as fast), ‘a’ on E string (4x as fast).

The more you relax (release) the bigger and more musical your sound is naturally. Tensions and muscular playing make the sound loudest to your ears, but smallest to your audience’s perception. You can never really hear your own sound.

Happy musicmaking,
vlnplyr

Oh sorry I forgot to fix the link. I changed my soundcloud user name.

Here is a playlist of quite a few fiddle tunes I’ve recorded. Road to lisdoonvarna and swallow tail jig are the only irish tunes.

I have to say I’ve already made some good progress since I made these recordings, but I’m not a whole lot better yet

http://soundcloud.com/coltons7/sets/fiddle/s-Ccq8E

Sorry about the double post above. If at first it doesn’t go thru, post, post again. In stereo.

Thanks for the working link! You’re getting the idea of fiddling.
Your Soldiers Joy is the version for singing the words. The fiddling version has twice as many notes.

Playing will be easier once you know the tunes better. Learn them slower, so you will know just what notes on what strings you will be playing.
Sounds like your right arm is stiff. If you are playing in the upper third of the hair, try playing with the strings in the middle of the hair length.

Also, timing and rhythm are not generated by the right arm. The arm motions are the result of the timing generated in your body. This is why, in the youtube video in this thread, Kato Havas bends her knees and claps her hands to demonstrate this point.

BTW: The sound in this video is poor. On youtube is a series of videos from this same workshop, with subtitles in English, so you can know what she is saying.

Your Time should be generated in your body from your Dan Tien, below your navel. Look up Dan Tien online.
Happy playing,
vlnplr

Thanks, I’m actually very aware of the issue you mentioned in soldiers joy. I’ve been working on it quite a bit lately and I’d say it’s one of my best songs now. Yes it does have twice as many notes.

That is one thing I’m having trouble with right now is the strange way rhythm works with a fiddle. Of course moving the bow faster doesn’t really speed up the tempo, it’s just a strange thing that I haven’t quite wrapped my head around yet