Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

We do an open session, but recently I’ve come to realise that there are a few players who come from other sessions that have certain tunes they won’t entertain at their own sessions. Are there a standard list of tunes that should not be played at a session (or at your session?), and is there any regional variation in this list?

On a related point, what is your "line" for non-traditional sounds? (as in, what tunes make the cut, and what tunes are just not "traditional" enough). And is there a different standard for songs and slower tunes; is there a quota, and what songs should never be heard at a traditional session?

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Absolutely not. There is no list of tunes that is not allowed to be played at any session I’ve ever been to.

Let me give you an example from church music. My rule has always been that nobody gets a veto. Anybody in the congregation can always write in their favorite hymn, and we’ll try to accommodate it. Write in a hymn you never want to hear again and I’ll throw your note in the trash. Because it might be somebody else’s favorite. And for the same reason I’ll never tell somebody else we can’t ever sing your favorite hymn, I’ll never let you tell somebody else we can’t sing hers/his.

As to where the tradition line lies, at the session I frequent we play Irish tunes. There’re a couple Shetland Islands tunes that turn up every now and again, and there’s one old-time (that means American trad - not sure where you’re from) song our flute player sings sometimes, but mostly Irish. As far as I can tell (and I’ve only been coming a couple years to a session that had been going on for a decade before I showed up) this isn’t a rigid rule, just a description of our evening. We’re all there to play Irish tunes, so that’s what we play. If a crackerjack Scottish fiddler started showing up, I bet we’d learn some of his/her tunes.

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

"somebody else’s favorite"
That’s a great name for a tune! xD

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I played a highland last week and got eyebrows, but then folks joined in anyway, maybe I’m too sensitive. Then I explained it was from Donegal, not Scotland, and maybe that made it better.

No there’s no banned list here. If someone is sick of the tune you start that’s their problem they have to deal with and hopefully get over soon. But, in encounters with folks from outside my local area (more urban areas not to be specified) I have encountered some particular folks who will openly express distaste and aversion to some tunes when someone starts them. I think that’s rude; go to the bar or something if it bugs you that much.

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Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Just, Danny Boy & Bodhran Solo’s 😉
f4

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

any Brian Finnegan tunes…

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Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Oh yeah no bodhran solos unless they’re in the key of Dmix.

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Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Nothing explicitly banned at our home session, (Providence RI, USA), but there are certain tunes that get the frown cause folks might be tired of playing/hearing them. Dingle Regatta seems a popular choice in this, and maybe the Irish Washerwoman or whatnot.

As for "the line", I had a friend tell me a great one: "For me, Irish starts at Miss McLeod’s and Saint Anne’s and ends at Paddy O’Brien." He would also certainly be inclusive of Paddy Fahy, Brendan Tonra, and many of O’Brien’s contemporaries. Just his take, but that’s a pretty good swath there. Basically up to "when folks in bands started composing their own tunes to differentiate themselves"…

-K

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

And how, pray tell, does he think we ended up with all these "traditional" tunes in the first place?

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Any tune can be good or bad depending on the mood and the way it is played.

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Nothing banned.

What would the consequence be for playing a banned tune, anyway?

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Garryowen can make some people very uncomfortable as it was brought to Custer’s cavalry by Irish soldiers and is still played by that military branch to this day as well as used as a name for military bases & opps. The tune has somewhat innocent beginnings ( Ownen’s Garden ) but some people are very offended by being reminded of the death of many innocent Native American men, women, & children. That being said, most musicians I play with are either oblivious or don’t care, so I still
hear it played as sessions.

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If someone shows up playing Polish mazurkas, and another person sings a Peruvian folk song, and another plays some Bill Monroe on a Gibson mando, you better believe we’ll enjoy all of it and try to join in. If any of them expects to spend a good amount of time during the session devoted to their music, then you have a problem. If they play this music and refuse to learn and play ITM, then you have a problem.

Sessions are such a great opportunity to share musical expression with others, I don’t think anything should be off-limits. It has to be clear, though, that the core and the primary focus is Irish music. If someone starts a general music sharing session, that’s awesome, but it’s not an Irish session. Anyone who wants to play a bit of their own music should be made to understand that, if they don’t already.

I introduce a lot of Newfoundland music to the sessions I attend, which is obviously very strongly influenced by and related to Irish music, so is that more acceptable? I think so. Others might not.

The point is, I think you solve the issue by focusing rather than restricting. Work to keep the focus on Irish, and the rest should fall into place.

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

If someone starts a tune you don’t like, do what you would want them to do if you started a tune nobody joined in with.

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Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

A tune may have political or religious associations so (regardless of the merits or demerits of the tune) it’s wise to avoid it unless you’re absolutely sure that it won’t offend anybody.

Here’s one example:

Lillibullero
https://thesession.org/tunes/1069

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Ah. Uncle Toby’s favourite tune. 😉

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Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

… and some tunes are considered to be so daggy/hackneyed/overplayed you’ll find that some folks won’t join in even if they know them:

Here’s one example:

Winster Gallop
https://thesession.org/tunes/3570

If you start up that one at your local session and everybody joins in you can probably assume that no tune is banned there! 😉

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@Ben Hall: Q. Who is Uncle Toby?

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Tristram’s uncle. (Laurence Sterne.) Tristram Shandy, pub 1759-1767.

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Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Tune types from the tradition, e.g. reel/jig/polka/hornpipe/slide/slip jig/march/waltz/barn dance/highland/mazurka/strathspey/schottische, no problem. And this includes more or less any kind of reely/hornpipy/jiggy kind of tune - e.g. Shetland, Cape Breton, French-Canadian etc., if a person with such a repertoire shows up.

I probably won’t join if someone shows up at our "Irish" session and plays "something completely different", like:
polska (of whatever type)
bluegrass
old-time
klezmer
Eastern European
a "groovy" chord sequence to which we’re supposed to improvise
an improvised melody to which we’re supposed to play harmonies on the spot
a song in which we’re supposed to play "solos"

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Some people have no sense of humour. I’ve had dirty looks and nasty comments at a session I used to attend, for doing some silly harmless stuff on the box, such as preceding a set of mazurkas with "How Much is That Doggie in the Window?" or ending a set of polkas with "Yankee Doodle Dandy" - either of these just once through, mind you. Then again, even playing mazurkas or waltzes at some sessions is barely tolerated. One of the reasons I no longer attend said session.
As has been expressed above, one or two forays into foreign territory can be a nice wee walk in the park, but just now and again. I’ll probably get shot down for this but the occasional frivolous stuff is light relief from set after set after set of dreary depressing rain-soaked East Galway Dminor reels.

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Ooh! I use How Much is That Doggy, at the end of a set of waltzes. I generally only do it in ‘foreign’ sessions (foreign to me, that is.) 😀

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Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

@Mix:
"If you start up that one at your local session and everybody joins in you can probably assume that no tune is banned there! 😉"

I surely remember the title from somewhere (maybe some tunebook from my early days), but didn’t have it in my active repertoire… I had to try it, and cracked up several times during the 20 seconds it took playing the tune. :D

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Ben - I wouldn’t have thought "Doggie" fitted in with waltzes. But slowed down I suppose it would….
BTW, I meant to add: ……set after set after set of dreary depressing rain-soaked East Galway Dminor reels - *especially for people listening*.
On the link to the superb sessions which Ralex added here, Jackie Daly messes about with The Tennessee Waltz then goes into The Maid Behind the Bar. But then again he’s Jackie Daly and can get away with such shennanigans….

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

For those too young to remember it "How Much is that Doggie in the Window" was a big song hit for Patti Page w—a—y back in 1953.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AkLE4X-bbU


However, the melody of the song is based on a very much older tune entitled, "The Carnival of Venice" - so perhaps it does just qualify as being traditional ….

@Danny Mackay; @ Ben Hall - Q. What do you do play for the "barking" bit? 😉

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

I do a sort of growly repeated portamento type thing on the G string.

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@Danny, all well and good. Just don’t add *the* words to the Ash Grove 🙂

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Mix - what a cringe. No wonder it was so easy for Bill Haley and the Comets to get a No.1 with "Rock Around the Clock" shortly afterwards.
I don’t really do anything for the barking…but I might just start now you’ve mentioned it…..

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How can you call that "a cringe"??!?!! It’s a classic! 😀

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Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

@Danny;@Ben

Well, the Patti Page rendering is very syrupy, isn’t it?

… Maybe they should have called it, "How Much is That Daggy in the Window! 😉

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

The Kesh woop woop

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I really *really* like Patti Page. Phenomenal voice. "If you’re fond of sand dunes and salty air …"

Ahhhhh ….

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Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Looks like "Doggy" could fast become one of those "Must Play" tunes at sessions…..

As for "Yankee Doodle" (sorry not Dandy - that’s a film I think) - every time I come to the end of that I look up to see a line of kids wanting to buy 99s with raspberry sauce…..

Tunes Whose Names We Dare Not Speak:

The Kesh
The Irish Washerwoman
Music for a Found Harmonium
Tam Lin
The Rakes of Mallow

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

I’ve been known to kick off a set of jigs with ‘Take Me Out to the Ballgame’ during certain Octoberish times of year.

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Am I the only one who still actually *likes* the Kesh?…

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I find it a lovely tune!
I don’t really "dislike" any tunes, they all sound so nice and make me want to dance sometimes.
Especially at 3:30 in the morning with not much sleep.

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I like to play it, too.

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Winster Gallop and Rakes of Mallow ("Rigs of Marlow") don’t belong in an Irish session any more than Klezmer or Balkan tunes do.

The Kesh seems to suffer a high degree of snobbery.
As paul95 said 11 years ago….
https://thesession.org/tunes/55#comment28986

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Mix O’Lydian:
< The Winster Gallop
https://thesession.org/tunes/3570 >

I like that wee tune, and even have been asked to play it sometime’s,
by Folk’s around the East Antrim coast. Although I do put a wee bit of lift in
it, maybe that make’s it sound more Irish to them ???
🙂
( It’s a Morris Dancing Tune I was Told ) But, once at a Mudcat Session in Portaferry,
with English Musician’s there too. I called it, The Winchester Gallop… One of the
fine English lad’s corrected me, I just said ” ah, but you’ll get plenty of Winchester’s
around here ” and his face went white. Maybe not the right think to say to a bunch
of English Lad’s, over here at the near End of the Trouble’s 🙂
* But later they saw the Funny side of it…
And It was another session of , ’ Good Friend’s, and Good Music ’
f4

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BTW - I like ’ The Shepherd’s Hey ’ too.
It’s nice if you play it like a Barndance !
Something like this.
f4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v😲75hhiROsM

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Shepherd’s Hey is a great tune. Winster Gallop is, erm… somebody else’s favourite. But I still *try* and enjoy it when it comes up.

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Sliding up into double stops whilst having a bit of rhythmic fun rather than playing the alternating notes can make Winster G more enjoyable on fiddle (if good taste allows in the circumstances.)

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I’ve always found it curious how some tunes have developed such a bad rap over the years, and based upon this thread, even across continents! I’ve seen noses turn up at The Kesh, Jig of Slurs, Harvest Home, John Ryan’s Polka, Rakes of Mallow, Dingle Regatta, and so on and so forth. How does a seemgly innocent little ditty make it’s way onto the Session’s Least Wanted list anyway? Overplay? Unfairly branded as a "learner’s tune?" Comically featured on Spongebob Squarepants? If you’re a tune hater, I’d love to hear your sordid tale as to how you came to such a state…

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Spongebob Squarepants music comical ? Isn’t it just English in style ?

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*sticks hand up sheepisly…..

I quite like the Winster Gallop…….

But then I’m not fussy- I’ll play a tune that I like and not worry too much about where it comes from.
I suppose we’re lucky here (Shetland) in that the sessions don’t have a single, set style. It all depends on who is there….. ( and W**** G****** isn’t really too bad after you’ve heard umpteen two-steps blasted out by by a hoard of accordians?)

Jim

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

I wouldn’t want to be at a session with people that look down on so-called overplayed tunes. Personally I would rather have an overplayed "learner’s tune" Irish Washerwoman where everyone joins in and makes music together, then an obscure tune that only one person knows. Both are fine in a session however.

@joe I’d like to hear your motives for banning that list.

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Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Njugglebreck :
Talking about Shetland, here’s a nice wee tune I Love to play also.
( You may say it’s a wee simple thing ) But I find some of the easy/simple
tune’s, are a nicer melody,plus you can also do more with them if you like ?
f4
X:5
T:Donald Blue
R:Reel
O:Shetland
M:4/4
K:D
dB AF AF AB | dB AF E2 D2 |
dB AF AF Ad | BB2A B2 d2 :|
|:AB de fa fd | fa fd ed B2 |
AB de fa fd | BB2A B2d2:|

P.S. -
If you ever run into Bearnard Smith Sheltland fiddler/trad and other’s , musician.
He use to be on youtube. Tell him, Jim McAuley from Co, Antrim was asking about him.
This Guy Here :- Thank’s !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzB4p8CuSB4

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"Am I the only one who still actually *likes* the Kesh?…"

HERESY

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@Fiddle4
Yes thats a great wee tune- part of the ‘Auld Five’ reels…
Jack Broke da Prison Door/Donald Blue/Sleep Soond ida Moarnin/Lasses Trust in Providence/Da Boannie Isle o’ Whalsay
I’ve got a hard enough time keeping up with them all, let alone trying to play around with them 😉

I know of Bernard, but don’t know him. Usually drive by Vestinore a few times each week and my family is originally from very close by.

To wander off topic a bit more….- what about banning tunes played in a defferent order or rythm? I get really confused when folk start a ‘Shetland Set’ and then play a completely strange mix of tunes, most of often with a bit of ‘swing’ to them!! I have to concentrate so hard then……… 🙂

Jim

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

@ Boyen: In real life I will happily play anything I can manage, actually, and a little more besides. Just having a bit of fun so please don’t take me too seriously. So: The Kesh is famous as the poster child for badly played beginner tunes. The Irish Washerwoman is the default Irish tune cliche for people who know nothing about Irish dance music, and often gets played by people who know very little about Irish dance music. (Of course, it gets played by people who know a great deal about Irish dance music, too). Music for A Found Harmonium somehow got confused with actual Irish music and keeps getting played by Napoleon Dynamite fans. Tam Linn is the bubblegum pop song of Irish tuneology, the first crowd pleasing showpiece some folks learn, ah but the girls in curls do love it so. The Rakes of Mallow is simply a repetitious ball-peen hammer to the skull. I have kind of learned to like it.

😛

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Njugglebreck: < Jack Broke da Prison Door/Donald Blue/Sleep Soond ida Moarnin/Lasses Trust in Providence/Da Boannie Isle o’ Whalsay > Yes ! I got around to learning the Whole set, about a month ago
now, and there still played most Wednesday Night’s, in the Crown and Shamrock Pub, in Newtownabbey.
And That way too 🙂
f4
* But this was a very quite night, in this wee video .
http://vimeo.com/42011968

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

I like the Kesh. Adapts well to most skill levels. I am not a fan of Rakes of Mallow perhaps because I am not a fan of John Wayne. More likely because it was the first tune I was asked to record when I first started learning box. Worked every hard at that and it sounded like shite. It still sounds like shite when I play it. I like the ball peen hammer comparison.

I don’t know if there is a specific banned list. I actually don’t thinks so. But I have seen Galway Girl and Galway to Graceland meet resistance, though the level of inebriation of the requester and propensity for the requester creating a ‘Rakes of Mallow’ episode might have something to do with playing it and getting it over with.

Though once in a while and with the right crowd in the right mood and not taking it too seriously, Galway Girl can be fun. Really an abused tune.

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

@Fiddle4
thats exactly what I mean…. I have a hell of a job playing Miss McLeod but can play Da Broon Coo even when I can hardly see where the strings are 😉

T: DA BROON COO, (OR MRS MacLEOD)
S: Leslie Hughson, Uyeasound
R: reel
B: Haand me doon da fiddle, 1979
Z: 2012 John Chambers <jc:trillian.mit.edu>
M: C
L: 1/8
K: A
|:A2a2 fefa | c2cB c2cB | A2a2 fefa | B2BA B2cB |
A2a2 fefa | c2cB c2ce | f2f2 fefg | afec B2cB :|
|:A2(cA) eAcA | c2cB c2cB | A2(cA) eAcA | B2BA B2cB |
A2(cA) eAcA | c2cB c2ce | f2f2 fefg | (af)ec A2cB :|

I lifted the ABC from another site; I have no idea if it’s formatted right, but it’s the out of the book I learned the tune from about 30 odd years ago…..

Jim

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Njugglebreck : Yes I’ve heard Jackie Daly Play something
like this before in A major ,,, I Like it !
&
BTW - Damian:
There’s a Kesh jig variation in A Major, we use to call it
The Kerry Kesh. But now they have renamed it, but I
cannot remember the title now ( someone on here may know the one
I am talking about ) It’s has a lifting way with it . And with stop’s and stuff in it ?
You Might Like It !
f4

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Thanks Fid

I will check it out. On the B/C, playing in A is a nemesis for me. It feels like playing in G or D upside down and backwards.

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

There’s a tune called Sean Coughlan’s Kesh.

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

I like the Kesh, it’s a good tune for a hammered dulcimer. Better still when you’re hammered!

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@ Danny Mackay - I love the idea of Doggie In The Window at the end of a waltz set.

In fact, I like the idea of putting a silly / fun tune at the end of a set - maybe only once round but just as a fun way of capping off a set.

I add a snippet of Barwick Green (The Archers Theme) on the end of a set I do and am always looking for new ideas to add. There’s definitely a time and a place but at the same time I have had requests for the set I refer to above because the person knows it’s the one I end with the fun tune.

Back on topic, no banned tunes in any of the sessions I am aware of. Winster Gallop is one we do regularly as it is one that the beginners can join in on and that makes them feel welcome and that the session is accessible to all abilities. We often take the tune into Bear Dance (polka) - a fun tune that you can messa round with a bit, which has the added bonus of introducing newer players to the concept of key changes in sets too (though I guess that Gmaj to Ador is not technically a key change).

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Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Who wants to have a fight over whether G major to A dorian constitutes a Key Change? I can argue either side. Any takers?

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Not me, but I’ll hold the coats and buy the winner a pint!

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I go to a number of different sessions and they really are all different. At some of them the musicians like to play the same tunes in the same sets every session - things they know - and they hate people who show off with new tunes or funny keys or rhythms. I can live with that. I put together a list of the best of what they play and that’s what I play. I remember when I first went to a southern English session and the only tune we had in common was Winster Gallop and this amused them so much that they kept throwing it in again - and again - and it was impossible not to laugh because they were being so friendly.

At other sessions you get people who like to hear some new tunes - but really mostly only want the things they already play.

There’s at least one session I go to, however, where Winster Gallop, Rakes of Mallow, Salmon Tails and various Kerry Polkas - what you might call "beginner’s" tunes - will put a very bored expression on certain people’s faces. No-one’s banning the frequently played tunes - but people who have been playing for a long time and/or have more time to go to sessions more often do feel the standards have been done to death and they’ve come out in search of a bit of interest. Occasional showing off is usually OK with them as well and you’ll get the Australian version of a tune or one of the better TV or radio theme tunes thrown in sometimes. You can test a session by finishing a tune on a discord. The odd tunes people laugh. The standard tunes people commiserate.

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My favorite thing in all these threads about overplayed tunes is the stunning number of overplayed tunes I’ve never heard of.

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I’m with you, hotsauce.

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"Who wants to have a fight over whether G major to A dorian constitutes a Key Change?"

I wouldn’t bother to fight about it. The answer’s so obvious. 🙂

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Which side are you taking, Ben? I’ll take the other. Put ‘em up! ;)

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Ah well now, I’d be taking the blindingly obviously correct side, now wouldn’t I? 🙂

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Ben, you obviously know nothing about traditional music if you think your side is correct. The other side is clearly correct, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a second-rate musician at best.

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Not bad, bigsciota. Not bad at all. You wouldn’t happen to be a "true Scotsman" would you? By any chance? 😀

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Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

(Context reminder : "Doggie in the window", as a previously mentioned silly end to a set)

[*I do a sort of growly repeated portamento type thing on the G string.*]

@Ben, I think it’s meant to be more of a puppy ‘yip yip’, rather than the menacing growl of a fully-grown Group 4 Alsatian 🙂

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[*Who wants to have a fight over whether G major to A dorian constitutes a Key Change?"*]

G major and A dorian. Interesting. Everyone’s right, up to a point :

"They’re the same because they both contain the same notes. I’m a monophonic tube-tooter, and they both sound the same to me."

"They are totally different. I’m a polyphonic strummer, and it’s obvious they are totally different because they sound totally different."

"I’m a professor of music theory. G major is a scale, and A dorian is a mode. The concept of key change is nonsensical."

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Ben, if you were a True Scotsman, you’d know.

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I’m all three, Jim. That’s the problem.

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

free speech is a great feature of this discussion - in my neck of the woods most of the really good ITMusicians are from Ireland and care less about music theory - they seem to know what to do when someone suggests a key change - I am too novice to be able to hear the key changes or much else and can only rely upon tunes I am familiar with after years of set dancing - so great discussion even though it is mostly over my head

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Music theory is just thinking and talking about how music works. Plenty of magnificent musicians who play all kinds of music don’t have any use for it, and plenty others do. It’s up to you. Jim up above nailed all the viewpoints I can think of for that particular question, so we’re probably done here and I won’t have to fight anyone.

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Well, I do say, good sir, music theory is rather essential to being a musician of any worth.
*sarcasm*

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

It seems to me that fluther was asking a sociological question about regional variations in "frowned upon" tunes, but I don’t think it has much to do with regional variation. As far as I can see — and note that I need glasses for distance — the real issue here depends on purpose. I run a slow session and a couple of regular sessions. In the former I think it’s important to teach the easy, common tunes to learn by ear that’ll encourage people to learn to play. The reigning idea is to keep the tradition going, and that once people get the "bug" they’ll find other tunes to play, work on the pulse, and eventually find interesting ways to express a tune (hopefully). In some places there may be sufficient momentum in the trad community that the idea of encouraging others along is not really needed. In some sessions I’ve been to it’s really about challenging and keeping up the interest of seasoned players. That’s a great high! The reigning idea being to push our abilities and find the flow. No one wants to be a teacher all the time. I think both have a place and so, in short, it’s just myopic to think either that (1) there are tunes that are daggy at any session, period, or that (2) tunes considered daggy, twee, or naff is geographically based. If players come in from somewhere else and are nonplussed about certain tunes, it just shows that they have a different set of expectations.

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

"G major and A dorian. Interesting. Everyone’s right, up to a point : "

You’re wrong Jim. The traditional method is to simply shift the tonal center up a whole step.

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

[*You’re wrong Jim. The traditional method is to simply shift the tonal center up a whole step.*]

I didn’t make a specific statement as to whether G major and A dorian are they same, or different keys. I just expressed different peoples’ understanding of their relationship.

But yes, I agree that the tonic of G major is G, and the tonic of A dorian is A (a whole step difference).

G major = G A B C D E F# G …. and
A Dorian = A B C D E F# G A, which is a G major scale “started from the A”. Agreed?

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

"But yes, I agree that the tonic of G major is G, and the tonic of A dorian is A (a whole step difference)."

Good. As long as we both agree that you’re wrong and I’m right.

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Jim Dorans: "G major is a scale, and A dorian is a mode."

But you overlook that fact that G-Maj is also a mode (i.e. G-Ionian) …

… and that A-Dor is also a scale:
A-B-C-D-E-F#-G-A

So here’s the best way to explain it, IMO:

G-Maj - Ionian mode with G as the tonal centre
A-Dor - Dorian mode with A as the tonal centre

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Gallopede said

‘I remember when I first went to a southern English session and the only tune we had in common was Winster Gallop and this amused them so much that they kept throwing it in again - and again - and it was impossible not to laugh because they were being so friendly. ’

Wouldn’t it be nice to think that an ITM session would have the same welcoming approach to an English musician who only knew The Kesh …

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

So is going between the two a Key Change? Or not?

This music lives in a gray murky place on the outskirts of Western Tonal Music, neither really in nor out (and the fact that someone below will dispute this, either saying ‘it’s in’ or ‘it’s out’ only proves my point), so you could argue either that once you start talking about modes that you’re no longer in the realm of Tonal Music and so the concepts of key and key change are moot, or that what happens when you go from Temperance Reel to Congress Reel is close enough to a Key Change that it will be experienced as such by anybody who knows what one is and therefore it’s OK to call it a Key Change and not be subjected to a music theory teacher’s ramblings about it, and be right either way.

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

sfmans: "Wouldn’t it be nice to think that an ITM session would have the same welcoming approach to an English musician who only knew The Kesh …"

The Kesh isn’t so bad a tune - it’s just that it’s suffered from being overplayed.

Far worse, IMO, is the Blackthorn Stick
https://thesession.org/tunes/702

The second and third bars in the first section of the "A" part are the same as the second and third bars in the second section of the "A" part …

… and the second section of of the "A" part is the same as the second section of the "B" part.

Q. How boring is that?

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

"Q. How boring is that?"

"The Battering Ram"?
🙂

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Re: Tunes That should Be banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

It would be a shame, to ban trad music. Yeah I’m all for doing something different, but where do you draw the line.? I have bent the rules here a few times. I will admit that straight out. My debates went down very well. I was happy with that, and maybe I might have a few more different debates in the future. Here is my opinion. Maybe I’ll be shot down for it. However, what the hell.? Now regarding tunes being banned, I would have no problem banning anything by Sharon Shannon or Mairtin O’ Connor. Their tunes are not traditional, in the true sense of the word. Any music from Riverdance, would also get the hatchet from me. That said, where do we really draw the line.?

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

@sfmans:
"Wouldn’t it be nice to think that an ITM session would have the same welcoming approach to an English musician who only knew The Kesh …"

The fewer tunes a musician knows, the more cheesy (or exotic) the tunes are. I once played in a session where one of the two (!) tunes a guy knew was the Irish Washerwoman. But I’ve been to stranger sessions than that.

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

@michael dineen:
"I would have no problem banning anything by Sharon Shannon or Mairtin O’ Connor. Their tunes are not traditional"

Their own compositions, or the tunes they regularly play?

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Also, the tunes which Sharon Shannon and Mairtin O’Connor might play in a session will not necessarily be the same tunes as they play on recordings or on a stage to make a living.
Would you apply the same to Brian Finnegan, or Michael McGoldrick, for instance ? Tommy Peoples ?
Please provide us with a list of which tunes are "not traditional, in the true [ true ?? ] sense of the word". I’m sure none of us would want to cause offence and be thrown out of your session, Michael.

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Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

"Now regarding tunes being banned, I would have no problem banning anything by Sharon Shannon or Mairtin O’ Connor. Their tunes are not traditional, in the true sense of the word."

Do you play any Charlie Lennon tunes? Or Vincent Broderick tunes? Or Paddy Fahy tunes? Or Ed Reavy tunes?

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Well.
I did say, that I’d probably be shot down for it. I didn’t want to say too much, except leave it up to the members. Now I still won’t mention names of tunes here. However I still maintain, tunes composed in a continental style and played by trad musicians, don’t fall into the category of pure trad tunes. However, here is the good side. If Steve Cooney turned up at a session, I’d have a great welcome for him. His newly composed tunes, drew from the trad well.

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Ah, Steve Cooney’s tunes. You mean like "Skidoo", made famous by Sharon Shannon? 😉

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Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

The thing is, you have to be joking because, Steve Cooney is great, of course, but nothing I’ve ever heard him do is remotely trad. Whereas t’other two you mention actually are. You have what seems to me to be an inverted sense of things. Or you’re just not serious about any of it …

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Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Ben
I’m always serious about music. I was talking about the "other" skidoo. The One Made famous by Stocktons Wing. Yes, I have a very black and white way of looking at music. If I’m not impressed by someones style of music, nothing can change my mind. We are all the same. We just know what we want in music, and who we want to perform it.

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

I’m not the same. I have quite a flexible way of looking at the music.

FWIW I never thought that Stockton’s Wing were particularly trad. Enjoyed them and all, but still … Mind you, Maurice is trad enough, and a great musician, of course.

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Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

I like Stockton’s Wing and I think ‘Skidoo’ is a fun wee track. But it traddy? Uh, no. I wouldn’t learn it for a session (although if I get my brother to learn the didj part, we might be on to something).

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

As for Skidoo or any other tune, I’m not too fond of just playing one part (like Stockton’s Wing do). Sharon Shannon plays both parts, and that way it makes more sense as a tune.

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

I have on occasion been a snob and refused to play egans polka…..and John Ryans … (the one that was in the titantic movie)…

Maybe because Egans was the first tune I learnt way back… and because in some sessions they automatically think ‘polkas’ that must mean these two tunes …. (maybe cause they dont know anymore) ) but they are so utterly played to death there is hardly a scrap of merit left in them ….particularly when there are loads of brillant polkas out there.

Oh and that other tune that I was once asked to play ’ The Lonely Postman’.

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Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

I’m genuinely curious here, Michael. Which tunes written by Steve Cooney are you referring to ? Apart from "Skidoo", I can only think of one other, although I’ve a feeling I may have heard some airs composed by him. I really can’t think of any tunes which would fit into a session that he’s written, but would certainly like to give them a listen. If you could tell me where I could find them, I’d be grateful.

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Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Kenny.

Here are a few, that come to mind The Kangaroo Polka, recorded by Begley And Cooney, on their album Meitheal. That tune is certainly written in the trad idiom. With A love That’s True, is another one. Vinnie Killduff recorded that one.

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

I could understand certain people being banned from playing certain tunes but not the tunes themselves being banned. If a tune has made it into session playing it’s rarely a bad tune, if ever. It’s the human aspect that’s the problem.

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

I’ve had at least one cup of coffee every day for over fifty years. Should I drink something else?

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Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Once played with a fiddle player who, when playing tunes for a Siege of Ennis, always threw in ‘There once was an ugly duckling’ and ’ O the moon shines to night on Charlie Chaplin, his boots are crackling for the want of blackning’ just to watch the expressions on the faces of the paid up Ceoltas members…..

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Just a newcomer here, to the session I mean.
I never realised there was so many under currents in a session.
The politics of music.
Oops, sorry to use that ‘P’ word.

Can I ask what may seem a slightly off topic question please?
If someone turned up with, oh let’s say an Alto Sax, would he/she be allowed in?
Assuming he/she joined in with the general style of course.

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

Very interesting.
Thank you.
Wonder if it would be as well received at Ma Murphy’s.

I sure it would.

Re: Tunes banned/ frowned upon/not allowed in your session?

"If someone turned up with, oh let’s say an Alto Sax, would he/she be allowed in?
Assuming he/she joined in with the general style of course."

The simplest answer:
It depends on many things, but most of all your attitude.

While the world is full of critics, bigots, and myopics, I suspect that someone
of friendly and courteous spirit will be made welcome most anywhere, generally
speaking. Such a person tries to be sensitive to the room they just walked into, and
desires to fit in and participate, as opposed to marching in and taking an ego trip which
may upset the mood that was on before they arrived.

At my most regular session, I believe a person could walk in with a tuba and, if they
were polite, might be encouraged by most there to give it a try.

I believe this would be true at many other sessions, FWIW.

My two cents, also off topic.

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