flute breathing vs tin whistle breathing

Hi. Well, first off I wanted to say I’m new here. I’ve browsed the site before quite a few times. Thought it was about time I made an account.

Now my question: So I’ve been playing the tin whistle for a bit under a year now and while I’m alright with fingerings and some ornamentation (slides and trills), I sound absolutely horrid. I didn’t think that was the case until I recorded myself playing for the first time. It sounded very screechy. I don’t know why I couldn’t hear how bad it sounded, think I have a bad ear or something. - Anyway, with that aside, if I have this sort of trouble with breathing too hard and heavy for tin whistle, will it be the same for flute? - Oh, and don’t get me wrong, I’m not going to quit playing the tin whistle because of the breathing factor and switch completely to flute. I fully intend on learning both to the point where I can perform them solo or in a band.

I remember the first time I was recorded - to me it sounded quite terrible. It was years ago when I was studying music, and they recorded everyone. I did notice that everyone sounded horrible, and it was the recording equipment that was making it sound so bad. These days you can get home equipment that sounds much better than what that stuff did back then, but even so, you can sound a bit tinny and shrill on a recording, more so than live. It might even be picking up your breathing too much if you are too close to the mic. Try recording somebody else and comparing the recording to what the original sounded like. I find it more useful to listen to things like timing/phrasing etc on a recording and ignore the actual tone.

Flute or whistle, the correct breathing is all the same. The first thing to do is to pick up your instrument, then take a deep breath from your belly, NOT from your shoulders, leaving the rib cage and shoulders as relaxed as possible, then blow into your instrument to get ONE easy-to-play tone and then get that one tone to play to perfection. Then, get another tone to play just as perfectly, then another tone and then another tone, and soon enough you will have mastered an entire octave. And that octave then becomes the “building bricks” of which music is made. BTW, your own ears will tell you when you have the tone just right.

Thanks for your input/suggestions guys. I will keep on practicing and hopefully I’ll get better at it.

Breathe normally. The trick is in expending the air, not taking it in. You must learn to phrase each tune the way you do when you sing. You’ve been talking all your life, so your body knows what to do. You might try singing (lilting) the tune to more easily find where you naturally take a breath and then apply the breathing to your playing. No one should be able to hear you breathe. If they can, you’re either taking in too much air or not breathing at natural phrase intervals and are thus running out of air. Singing will help you find the places to breathe and then you can stop thinking about it.

Wonderful advice here. Absolutely true and succinctly stated. Finding the right place to breath is essential as is diaphragmatic breathing. It’s been my experience that the whistle just takes more air so proper technique is doubly important. But then, I’m a lousy whistler. Lotsa luck!

Keep in mind too that while the music calls for an infinite supply of air (there are no convenient “rests”), you can’t possibly achieve that. So you have to “make” spaces to breath in. JS Bach used to make it hard for flute players too. Easy for him playing the organ and the clavichord!

With flute, you will probably expend more air than with whistle, so you’ll need more spaces. Listen to and watch good players to see how they find and exploit such places. Try to avoid the obvious places, like at the end of parts. Nicer to have an anacrusis than a slurp there. Look for long notes that can be replaced with a short note and a slurp. So EA ABA can sometimes be played like that, other times as EA A~, or other times as EA A slurp.

Don’t think of these slurps as a necessary evil. Think of them as intentional commas, helping phrase the music.

They shouldn’t be audible. If they are, double their number and halve their depth. If all the glasses on the table at the session move towards you every time you breathe, you’re breathing too hard.

Always breathe before you run out of air, not after! It’s too late then, you’re technically dead.

You know when you’ve arrived when people come up to you after a performance or dance or a four hour session and say “do you ever have to stop for breath?” The answer of course is no. You can’t afford to.

Terry, I love the comment about the glasses. Sudden entry to a cartoon world.

I find breathing challenging on the tin whistle once the jigs ‘n’ reels start flowing at a session, and breathing can put me out of step. Even more so on the Low whistle, which requires more puff. Deep breathing from the diaphragm and planning the breathing as part of the piece helps. Fortunately many tunes that suit the low whistle are slower, so there is more opportunity to breathe.

Us mouth-blown aerophone players have an additional significant challenge that doesn’t apply to those on mechanically blown aerophones, cordophones or membranophones!

At least two topics here

1) learning appropriate breath control for each note, so that it sounds strong and clean with no breaks or squeaks.

2) learning to arrange traditional tunes to create the breathing-gaps.

For #1 I might suggest putting aside tunes for a time, and do exercises. I know these are widely scorned in the ITM world! Yet I think beginners make more progress faster with exercises.

If you’re having trouble finding the correct amount of support each note needs, do this exercise:

D E D F# D G D A D B D C D d D e D f# D g D a D b

all with no tonguing, only using correct breath control to switch notes. Believe me, after you do this a hundred times you’ll have no trouble hitting all the notes of the flute or whistle. It’s especially useful for the flute, on which the exercise develops a powerful Bottom D.

About #2, the Irish whistle or flute player must learn to be his own arranger in regards to finding the breathing spots. There are spots that nearly always work in jigs and reels, such as a Long Roll:

A(cut)A(pat)A > A’A

(A comma ’ in flute music indicates taking a breath.)

In other words, an entire eighth-note of the tune is removed to create the place to breathe. More than that, really, because the eighth-note before the breath is cut short, just touched on, and not held to its full value.

A good whistle player or flute player can play the same part of a tune several times in succession taking a breath at a different spot each time.

Which brings up a point: some players do it like that, breathing at a different place each time, so that the listener has a notion of the entirety of the tune, while other players have fixed breathing-spots which for them are part of their version of the tune. A fiddler or boxplayer or piper learning a tune from the latter sort will have to create the missing notes.

Many good trad fluteplayers turn the necessity of breathing into a powerful rhythmic device, giving their tunes great drive and lift. Others, like Paddy Carty, played with a fairly even flow which minimized the effect of the breathing-spots.

Here’s Paddy Carty. You can hear the full support for each note, the breath control, the effortless breathing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BQ34XyzOxc

play video

Here’s Tom Morrison in 1927. It’s quite amazing. Note that there are times when he’s taking far more frequent breaths than would be needed, sometimes three breaths closely-spaced. Also note the cool variations he throws in from time to time, a passage all played staccato.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-blZR7M-DI

play video

Comment: the OP’s post was about tuning with respect to blowing pressure, not where to breath within tunes, as vital as this topic is.

Firstly, sit down with a tuner and get a feel for where “in tune” is for your instrument (and get it in tune!). If you’re not hot on the ins and outs of equal temperament and just intonation, only do this for the D and A notes (because magic & reasons).

Secondly, either spend some time playing with good players one on one or recordings. Modern studio recordings may be soulless, but they are in tune.

Another tactic is to somehow set up a D drone and play along with it. This gives you the constant background reference. I think there are MIDI files, or there’s one here which is in perfect tune: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bCgHBSdf5Y

play video

PS - on the topic of not being able to hear it, the ear adapts quite quickly to “out of tune” sounds, and since intonation isn’t a topic much covered in the early stages of whistle playing, it’s hardly surprising you took a while to notice.

I’ve been playing whistles for 25 years and it often comes down to the whistle as much as the breather… I play Michael Burkes, session bore is best for me, but Albas make me feel faint, Susatos never sound right (that might not be my breathing though), small Overtons are a bit too breathy for comfort, and Generations can be amazing or awful. I’m female, of relatively small stature, trained as a singer, smoked and am asthmatic (and totally metal mouthpieces make me dribble!)… All of these factor in my breathing. I prefer a whistle that takes less breath to get a decent tone so I can increase pressure for tuning/expression if need be. Some people struggle with an instrument that requires a small amount of breath as they naturally ‘blow’ too hard (I breathe into the instrument, and I teach breathing into the instrument but I know some player ‘blow’, a concept I struggled with when I switched to the flute). Some instruments will never have a decent tone (no matter how much blu-tac you take to a generation) others seem to be impossible to play badly. What are you playing?

Loved the Tom Morrison tunes, thanks Richard, who today uses such a wide variety of techniques in their playing? Ps what the name of the first tune? my memory is not as good as it used to be, sigh 🙂

The first tune is The Dunmore Lasses, isn’t it?

And the two that follow are The Galway Rambler and The Laurel Tree.

Thanks Colman, yes , oh dear, my memory really is going if I cant remember that I play it in Dm for some obscure reason , and I play the Galway rambler in F as well 🙂 Too many yrs on the East Clare/Galway border perhaps!

Here is all my Tom Morrison in one place:

https://app.box.com/s/vggp7a5ppc7s1e25dzj7

Anyone who thinks you shouldn’t hear a player’s breath should listen. And listen to Harry Bradley, Conal O Grada, Desi Wilkinson and on and on.

Also one of the best bits of advice I ever got was to treat whistle and flute as being different instruments and learn to play them as such.

“Anyone who thinks you shouldn’t hear a player’s breath should listen. And listen to Harry Bradley, Conal O Grada, Desi Wilkinson and on and on.”

Too bad they didn’t learn to play without the breathing being heard, however good they were otherwise, then. I don’t get the point of the quoted statement. Can you clarify? As Terry McGee noted, you know when you’ve arrived when people ask if you ever stop for air.

“Too bad they didn’t learn to play without being heard.”
This type of statement just makes me wonder whether you have any grounding in traditional music at all.

Listen to the above mentioned players. Listen with a critical ear based on countless hours of listening. Listen with an ear educated to the aesthetics of traditional music. Don’t be that guy coming from outside the tradition telling the great players where they are going wrong with their technique.

I promise not to be that guy. I’ve been playing for over 30 years and will put my knowledge against anyone’s. What I am asking for is a qualification that justifies hearing the taking of breaths regardless of the player’s ability, otherwise. All I can think of that makes sense is that you think the sound adds to the desired affect. If so, you may be right in some cases. If not, I still don’t get your point.

Yes indeed. Hearing Conal, Harry, or Tom Morrisons breathing is part of the desired effect.

Please have a good listen to all the Tom Morrison I shared above.

My comment is far from silly, dunnp. Consider the larger point that I was making and I think you can see that. No flute teacher would advocate playing flute like Ian Anderson when in full Jethro Tull mode, but of course one might incorporate some of his techniques to get a particular affect. So it helps to know the rules before you break them. I would not advocate using the examples you cited as models until one is competent enough to control the use of breath as a technique as opposed to doing so because one hasn’t the control to do otherwise. Do you agree?

BTW, it occurs to me that what you are pointing out with Morrison are the little explosions of air he uses to punctuate a phrase, which is fine and I do it. What I am talking about are the little gulps of air some players take because they can’t use the air they have to complete a phrase. I can’t think of an instance where one would want an inhale to be audible, can you?

Ailin, by audible do you mean (more) easily perceived on a recording (i.e. ~ amplified)? Recording or not it seems I can still distinguish between when a player is inhaling, exhaling, or pausing in breath. Though it can be more obvious (or amplified?) with a recording.

If you have it listen to track two of Top of the Coomb……….
I was struck by the amount of breath taking I could hear the other day.
Then Harry’s First of May…….
Listen for the breath noises and how to use them.
Also be aware that there was a fashion in recording to minimise this effect that thankfully is less prevalent.
Recently I was asked to record something on one row melodeon (I am not a great player but I did what was asked).
Afterwards there was complaint about the clacking. The person did not understand that the clack was part and parcel of the one row sound.
And I do differentiate between a glottal pulse and breathing noise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYWp2T1AOSA

play video

Just listen closely……
I would be wary of telling beginners they should not ha e any audible breath sounds when many very accomplished players do.

Using a microphone easily does amplify the sound of inhaling especially on flute as many players place the microphone close to their head joint, often directly or nearly directly across from the flute’s embouchure hole, where sometimes even the air used to power the flute can be heard!

For long on flute and now at taking up whistle, I use an inhaling technique that I once learned from one of my flute teachers which also works more than perfectly well on a whistle, too. On flute it leaves the embouchure undisturbed and on whistle it keeps the whistle from flipping out of the fingers. Simply open the left and right sides of one’s mouth to breathe in while lightly holding the whistle. It is just that easy!

I think there is some overthinking going on here. My simple point is that in normal life, we generally have little awareness of someone breathing in normal conversation unless there is something wrong. That doesn’t mean that it isn’t audible; it is just not very noticeable. In playing a wind instrument, noticeable intake of breath is, to me, indicative of a problem in the player unless it is intended. I don’t think the point need be belabored beyond that. Whether so-and-so is great, and after all HE can be heard to breathe is neither a justification nor is it relevant. To me, it is splitting hairs to somehow dispute the simple point that if you can easily be heard to breathe, you likely have something to learn about breath control.

An interesting discussion. I can’t give any value judgement because I don’t play wind instruments.

All I can say is that I’ve always noticed breath noise in good players, live and recorded, but it never has been obtrusive. I haven’t listened to any of the clips above, as yet.

I wonder if it’s like that kind of ‘signal-to-noise’ analogy - eg on fiddle if you don’t bow heavily enough you don’t produce enough tone to be heard about the natural ‘scratch’. Is it the same with flute? If you’re blowing properly you’re getting enough volume to make the breathing noises barely noticeable? Does it work that way?

Plus of course human breathing ranges from quiet and normal to loud and wheezy anyway …

Jim, what I was originally trying to get across is that, style aside, breathing to play a wind instrument does not differ from breathing to talk or sing. If a student keeps that in mind, the sound of the intake of breath will be at an appropriate level. Breathing will no longer be a strain or a conscious effort. Because some tunes are very difficult to play smoothly without taking a breath where there are notes to be played, one can skip a note or otherwise use an ornament to disguise taking a breath, but all other things being equal, the flow of breathing should be natural and more or less unnoticeable unless the player is trying for a specific breathy quality. But for the purpose of learning and mastering the instrument, a player should strive to make breathing an unforced, quiet process that does not require thought or effort. Anything else can be added later once that level of control is mastered.

@Ailin, OK, I see what you mean. Thanks.

<< more or less unnoticeable unless the player is trying for a specific breathy quality>>
might this be the crux of the issue? A traditional sound , as exemplified my Conol and Harry etc has certain characteristics , that makes it sound ‘human’ while a classical player trying to play trad sounds more like a machine IMO, souless and mechanical.
Just as a Classical fiddler will always sound like a classical player trying to play trad unless they Incorporate techniques specific to the genre, which would be incorrect in a classical scenario but are correct in a trad situation. Its these fine details that a players sound is formed.
Its like language ;correct Spanish uses the present tense to indicate the future often, which would be incorrect English. Saying that the sound attained and techniques used by our examples are incorrect or bad technique etc etc is like a native Spanish speaker speaking Spanish[castellan] being informed pompously by an non native Spanish that they are useing incorrect terminology and phraseology when they Speak Spanish . According to the laws of English Grammer they are, but its Spanish!!

Good suggestions above.

Ditto what Bredna says about comparing a recording of yourself with that of another musician (using the same equipment), considering whether or not your mike is accentuating some sounds over others, but especially the comment, “I find it more useful to listen to things like timing/phrasing etc on a recording and ignore the actual tone.”

Terry McGee’s post is excellent. I’ll just quote the 1st bit, “With flute, you will probably expend more air than with whistle (I concur. A high D whistle requires less air than a concert flute), so you’ll need more spaces (hence phrasing may be effectively different on flute than whistle).”

Thanks, Mr. Cook, for introducing the idea of two different topics for discussion.

"1) learning appropriate breath control for each note, so that it sounds strong and clean with no breaks or squeaks.

2) learning to arrange traditional tunes to create the breathing-gaps."

… skipping ahead a bit, in Richard’s response, I also appreciate your point regarding wind playing,

“… Which brings up a point: some players do it like that, breathing at a different place each time, so that the listener has a notion of the entirety of the tune, while other players have fixed breathing-spots which for them are part of their version of the tune. A fiddler or boxplayer or piper learning a tune from the latter sort will have to create the missing notes.”

Jim Dorans, even though a wind players’ music is intimately connected with their breathing I tend to think other musician’s breathing is also reflected in their phrasing; if not also one’s tone & rhythm.
http://www.fiddlehangout.com/topic/39541 ~ Question About Breathing and Phrases

Will, let me explain something about players of classical music. If they decide to play trad, they will sound anything but soulless and mechanical. They will incorporate the best of what each discipline has to offer. I offer Chris Norman as an example. What I think you are referring to is a classical player playing trad in the classical style (for example, James Galway). Even then, it is neither soulless nor mechanical; it’s just not what you want to hear.

The crux of the matter, as you say, is the difference between what is done for the sake of style and what is done for the sake of not falling down for lack of air.

Here we see James himself banging on about his flutes, his style, and himself while completely misunderstanding Irish music (in this case ornamentation and the wooden flute itself).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZkyr8HXJmk

play video

Will have you listened to Seamus Macmathuna? If you like Morrison’s music.


http://www.comhaltasarchive.ie/search?q=person_id%3A793&tab=images

“Comment: the OP’s post was about tuning with respect to blowing pressure, not where to breath within tunes, as vital as this topic is.”

I should point out that the word “tuning” does not appear in the OP.

“Screechy” does; I took the post as being about trying to get better breath control.

“Too bad they didn’t learn to play without the breathing being heard, however good they were otherwise”

The whole point is that many fluteplayers WANT the breathing-spots to be heard; the breath-taking gives the tunes drive and rhythm. It’s taking a necessity and turning it round into being a powerful expressive tool.

About the sound of the actual intake of breath, that’s another thing, and I suppose would vary with somebody’s anatomy and health.

“Here we see James himself banging on about his flutes, his style, and himself while completely misunderstanding Irish music (in this case ornamentation and the wooden flute itself).”

Yes that’s a bit painful to watch.

Of course Matt can leap from any note to any note just fine.

Sir James is a bit off on his flute history too, because in England the orchestral players, in the main, went straight from the sort of flute Matt plays to the sort of flute Sir James plays. The wood flute loaded with a plethora of keys that Sir James refers to was a 20th century German thing, and didn’t happen in France, Britain, or the USA.

I will say that when trad Irish players squirm in their seats listening to Sir James play trad music, that an audience of orchestral players would feel the same listening to Matt play Classical flute literature. Both men would sound like fish out of water when dabbling in sorts of music outwith their expertise.

Well things like the Radcliffe and Pratten plateau keyed cylindrical flutes did happen in England…… And every firm had their own “old system” models. Even if they were more marketed at amateurs they were plentiful.
Amadio famously played a Radcliffe.
But you’re fairly spot on as usual in this thread Richard.

<< They will incorporate the best of what each discipline has to offer>> exactly my point Ailin! by incorporating classical techniques they are combining 2 cultural approaches, just like speaking Spanish with English grammatical rules, its simply wrong within the limits of form, just as useing traditional styles to play Classical[western art] music would also be wrong .
Style , by its nature, is a statement of/by culture that it is different from other cultures . Traditional styles have ideas, concepts boundaries and limits that defines the form itself . The decision itself of what is ‘better ’ is a reflection of culture, nothing more, there are no rights and wrongs outside of a cultural form. To suggest that there are , or that one cultural approach is better than another is just arrogance or hubris for want of better words.

we agree here;>>The crux of the matter, as you say, is the difference between what is done for the sake of style and what is done for the sake of not falling down for lack of air.<<

>I should point out that the word “tuning” does not appear in the OP.
>
>“Screechy” does; I took the post as being about trying to get better breath control.

Breathing on a tin whistle, as in finding enough room to take breaths, shouldn’t really be an issue. It seems fairly clear to me that the OPs problem is he’s blowing too hard and wondering how to fix it.

He then meanders into worrying about flute, which I’m not too concerned about because he isn’t playing flute yet.

hmm, well I searched out C Norman as per recommendations and ,IMO, he exemplifies my point; Technically Competent but to my taste of no interest whatsoever . Granted a couple or three youtube clips are not going to show much, but enough to get an idea . Now this on the other hand is what its all about 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTo5Ae7Vz3c

play video

Granted this blending of styles and ‘evolution’ of musical form is ubiquitous [and Ive been guilty to an extent myself, as a professional musician Ive been bound by commercial considerations which is why its the amateurs who often are the ones who stay true to the traditional Ideas and forms and are essential in the maintenance of tradition. ] but by doing so it becomes something else. It has broken the barriers of the cultural form as defined by the general consensus of the people within the culture. By the very nature of culture those outside of the culture can not define the culture . For example , take a traditonal form of music such as ‘gnaoua’ gnawa music, it has a particular sound that is what defines it, if the music doesnt sound like Gnawa , it isnt gnawa . Just as in traditional Irish music, they have certain characteristics that are essential. remove those characteristics and it isnt the same thing anymore. So this then beggs the question ; what characteristics defines the particular sound of traditional Irish flute? Well we have excellent examples linked here as to definitive sounds and its been pointed out that one aspect of this traditional sound is a certain breathy quality that is incorrect from a classical perspective but correct from a traditional perspective.

I am a lousy whistle player. I own handful of the usual $1o whistles (my opinion is that the Oak is best), a couple of tweaked whistles (including a hard to find Shaw), a Sweet, and a Park. I have no low whistles. None of them seem to use less air than any of my flutes. I’ve always assumed that because I control the amount of air through embouchure I get the best sound with the least amount of air. When I turn to whistles I lose most of that control and have to use more air. Everybody else seems to think otherwise. So….what am I doing wrong? Note: thanks to my previous profession I have enormous lung capacity to start with. A little help here…somebody…anybody?

Two comments …

Years ago I heard that of all of the woodwinds a flute can require more air than any of the others, and from my own experience I could agree with such a statement although I have adapted to such breath requirements.

My having said that, one of the things that kept me away from a serious study of the whistle, and away from the recorder, too, was that, to me, playing whistle and recorder was more like an exercise in holding one’s breath. Yes, a flute indeed can consume a lot of air although a flute can also be made to sing softly and sweetly with a very economical use of breath, too. Anyway, I have now taken up a more serious study of the whistle just because I like its qualities as an instrument.

“So this then beggs the question ; what characteristics defines the particular sound of traditional Irish flute?”

Good question, albeit not germane to this thread. I would offer in your criticism of Chris Norman that there isn’t a flute player alive who plays like the old players did - certainly not Matt Molloy, whom we all revere. So while you believe that my example of Chris Norman proves your point, I would agree only to the extent that, for you, it validates your personal aesthetic. I would not agree that Chris’ playing somehow runs afoul of what it means to be a player of Irish trad. That playing has evolved and whom you like and whom you don’t has more to do with taste than any right or wrong about the playing. Let me hasten to add that I recognize a difference between incorporating different influences to create an individual style of trad playing and simply playing a trad tune in a classical style. That was why I talked about both Norman and Galway in my previous post.

Regarding the relevance to this thread of my post, its of the utmost relevance to this thread, after all the traditional sound is defined by people who dont use classical breath control, which is possibly an essential part of their sound and this discussion is about flute and whistle breathing in the context of t‘trad’ . Thats why people who use classical breath control dont sound like the trad players such as exemplified above.
Regarding Matts playing, well speak for yourself, revere? not at all, It doesnt interest me either. particularly. Remember the Bothy band were a bunch of young long haired hippies breaking new ground, though they are old hippies now with rather less hair , rather like me 🙂 I much prefer Christy Barry for example as a flute player or Conol O’grada. yes personal preference of course.

Regarding Chris Norman who Ive never met, but from what ive heard, albeit very little I wouldn’t consider his playing in any way traditional either Scottish or Irish . It just sounds nothing like it on those clips. Perhaps I just need to listen to more,but life is to short and I heard enough!!
My point is simple, by incorporating techniques from other genres of music , such as western art music automatically , by definition , its not trad any more. Style is a reflection of culture, an exemplification of culture By its nature it include and excludes. Of course his music reflects his own cultural understanding, just as all our music does, unless I suppose its merely rote learnt or computer generated! We cant but help sound like who we are, unless we are trying to be a clone but thats not art now is it? Chris Plays his own music, in his own style and is presumably not attempting to replicate a traditional sound. He may well be a fabulous flute player, just as is Ian Anderson but inevitably one cant sound traditional by using non traditional techniques.

I disagree, but to debate further would be only to repeat myself, so I’ll leave your post as the last word unless someone else wants to comment on what we’ve been discussing.

I do think, though, that you make an odd argument in questioning whether or not flute players revere Matt Molloy. Pretty much anything you can find about him will state that he is the single most influential and respected trad flute player now living. But your statement does let me know where you are coming from, and I don’t mean that sarcastically.

All,

I’m still a newb in these parts, but I wanted to offer a bit of experience for the original poster. My original instrument was flute--specifically, keyed flute in school band, as well as piccolo. But as I’ve gotten into trad music, I’ve found myself gravitating to smaller, keyless flutes that are more appropriate for a session. (The larger keyless flutes I’ve found tend to be harder for me, due to my fairly small hands.)

I’ve also been experimenting with whistles, since it seemed like a reasonable extension of my previous flute experience. But a thing I noticed is that the amount of breath necessary to power a whistle is NOT the same as the amount of breath necessary to power a flute. Or even a piccolo.

My first whistle was a Meg, a very narrow-bored thing, and I have a VERY hard time pacing my breathing on that--and I say that as someone with years of experience playing piccolo. On that whistle, I often find myself way overshooting where I should breathe on the thing, because I’m used to pacing myself on the piccolo or piccolo-sized keyless flutes.

I’ve since picked up a couple of better whistles, one that’s a carbon fiber from Carbony Celtic Winds, and another that’s a gorgeous-voiced one from Sweetheart. The Sweetheart in particular is closer in weight and diameter to some of my smaller flutes, so I find that I have a way easier time pacing my breath on it.

My overall point here being--don’t immediately assume that if you have breath pacing problems on flute, that you’ll also have them on the whistle, or vice versa. You may need to experiment a bit to find an instrument that’s best suited to you and your playing style. Not to mention your own breath capacity. Bigger instruments, like a bigger flute or a low D whistle, have different requirements than higher D whistles and smaller flutes.

Cheers all,
Angela

“If you’re blowing properly you’re getting enough volume to make the breathing noises barely noticeable? Does it work that way?” ~ Jim Dorans

Depends. You do have to play at a minimum volume for it to be flute music, not merely the sound of one’s own breath. Still breathing, at least expelling air, is necessary for there to be sound; for there to be music. Noise, on the other hand, seems to occur not so much from insufficient volume or ‘intentional’ sounds occurring with exhalation but rather squeaky bits (perhaps due to unsuccessfully attempting wide intervals), exaggerated inhalation on strong notes or expending too much air such that taking the next breath feels like a desperate, anoxic gasp.

Bottom line is wind players & vocalists make choices as to when breathing/blowing is considered music & when it’s noise.

AB Steen - You make a good point, but I’m not sure it answers Jim’s question. I believe you’re talking about using air to create tone rather than wind, yes? What I think Jim is asking is whether the sheer sound of flute playing should be enough to cover the sound of breathing. My answer is, not really. Normal breathing is just not very loud, even if you’re taking in more air than just enough to sustain life. The inexperienced player tends to take in an exaggerated breath which then tends to be noisy. That is what one must train to avoid.

Sorry, Ailin, if I failed to answer Jim’s question adequately. My response was based on his reference to “blowing properly”.
I appreciate your point regarding noise due to exaggerated inhalation. I’m pretty sure I covered this in my response; as have others before me.

I hasten to add that a simple fact‘ one can not attain a traditional sound by useing non traditional techniques ’ does not reflect on anyone’s ability to play Irish music. Ive been a very strong defender of peoples rights to play music as they feel and not be bound by external constraints. Im effusive with praise in relation to players who have been dismissed by others here in the past because they dont play in a traditional manner. Where would we be if people did not stretch and play with these bounderies?
Neither , when i said a player might not understand the basics of attaining a traditional sound, because as someone pointed out, it is not so common these days, was I insulting anyone. Rather a small attempt at helping anyone who does aim for a traditional sound /style. Im Sorry my point was misconstrued as a barb, i accept my approach is somewhat blunt 🙂 .
I fully support anyone who wishes to play their music in their style useing whatever influences they choose to incorporate. Irish music is played in many styles by many people. A commercial sound by its nature has to comply with certain standards as set by the consumer who have their ears entrained by modern music with it ET and refined techniques . People like Martin Hayes, Liz Carrol etc etc dont play in a ‘traditional style’ they play in a ‘modern ’and highly personal style heavilly influenced by their traditional back ground and they have developed their own style over many decades.
Style changes , but fortunately for those who do aim for a traditional style we have recordings from old to refer to. If we can hear it, then its part of the overall musical sound, like the clacking mentioned earlier. Its not possible to reduce something and still maintain its fullness because by the very nature of such a process one must remove certain facets. One can say that the essence can be maintained but that depends on what exactly the essence is.; ie what audible aspects of a sound define it. Can one remove the clacking or breathing etc and still produce a traditional sound. I maintain it is not. That the fine detail is essential and not extraneous.
This is why many fiddlers despite their competence dont sound like the old boys , because they/we are obliged to play under different social conditions whereby a particular sound is now classed as unacceptable due to the ubiquitous cultural hegemony of the ‘Western World ’.
Fortunately we can still refer to the older recordings and players for direction if we do aim for a style that is traditional as defined by the gestalt of Irish musicians and people , old recordings and players. Of course experimentation occurs and has stretched the boundaries but IMO the general feeling now is that its gone too far in some cases and there is a ‘swing back’ to a more earthy, raw, wild, rough and ready sound , not due to lack of technique as has been suggested but due to a deeper appreciation of the music and ‘different’ techniques.
The classical technical approach is not better, it is different and in the ears of many the result is, infact inferior to the sound produced by the older players . If one wishes to attain a sound comparable to these role models then one must use similar concepts and approaches. If someone is happy playing in a modern style then more power to your elbow but please , leave out the cultural imperialism. What is better or worse is a matter of culture and style, ie opinion.

Hiyah Will,
Glad someone is trying to say the same type of things I have been thinking on nearly every flute related thread in the last while.
I do like and appreciate the technical mastery of Chris Norman’s playing and recordings. Here is a nice article where he expresses some of his thoughts on these matters:
http://www.robertbigio.com/norman.htm
I particularly like his album of early Scottish music on baroque instruments with harpsichord.
Did you have a listen to the Seamus Macmathuna I linked above?
I wish I could get my hands on a mp3 copy of his cassette.
I will add that who knows if what we have on old recordings (78 era) expresses what is a traditional style or a highly individualized style as well, but what you’ve expressed above is well expressed.
All the best,
Patrick

<<will add that who knows if what we have on old recordings (78 era) expresses what is a traditional style or a highly individualized style as well,>> hmm good point 🙂
Icould only get to hear a few clips from your SM.. link but yes I liked it. are you familiar with Eddie Cahill’s stuff. I found his playing riveting both solo and with John Vesey.

IMO there are bound to be many ‘traditional styles’ as each player uses his/her influences experience and upbringing . Its hard obviously to define something as ephemeral as music yet there are certain things that come across in the many old recordings of , not just flute, but pipes fiddle etc that set the ‘ground rules’ for want of a better term.
Traditional in one sense means ‘long standing’ possibly its easier to use examples outside of ‘trad’ such as Gnawa because there are many traditions that are still ‘ pure’, from very conservative societies and we have no personal bias in examining them.
I also understand how ‘traditions’ can change rapidly for many reasons, ie defeat in war and social collapse, whereby the ‘loseing’ culture decides to adopt the habits of the ‘winners’ due to internal and external pressure.


But my point is in relation to the technical mastery of someone like Tom Morrison whos playing is lively, inventive, interesting , dynamic and exciting in relation to a more modern sound like that of Chris Norman, who uses different techniques that by their very nature creates a different sound that to me sounded polished and refined but yet completely uninteresting to my ear. Im trying to be polite here 🙂 what aspects of their sounds create such a different perception? What is it in the playing of Tansy that entrances me to a point where i can happily loop it for hours yet have no interest in even hearing a whole clip of Chris? what is it the Seamus has that Chris doesnt. Ok my personal taste tends to the pure drop but im a very broad minded musician and delight in many forms of music from Rai to metal to Baroque to jazz etc .
I find a certain flair and delight in the music for itself in Tom and Seamuses’ playing , a single minded pursuit of excellence within a cultural context , while I simply dont hear that in Chris’s playing possibly because he is playing within his own cultural milleau which by its nature encompasses a broader range of influences and different constraints.
My approach is somewhat analytical in that I feel that by understanding where these players differ we can learn to appreciate the mastery of the old players with an open ear that might allow us one day to achieve similar sounds.. As it is , if we disdain certain areas of their playing in preference to the more modern polished sound we have no hope of ever getting close, Of course this is again only relevant to people who wish to do so.! Many players are quite happy to have a polished and refined ‘classical’ sound when playing trad and indeed have no choice because the techniques they use inevitably produce that result. Only by incorporating similar techniques can one hope to produce a similar sound scape.
If a classical player wishes to sound like a trad player they must learn to use a different bag of tricks so to speak and broaden their technical command and if their understanding is that a technique is incorrect then of course they will disdain it as being ‘amateurish’ or mistaken, without realizing that it is in fact based within another cultural context, with different aims and concepts of right and wrong.

[*What I think Jim is asking is whether the sheer sound of flute playing should be enough to cover the sound of breathing.*]

Yes, that was it. Thanks for the answers, AB and Ailin.

AB - the fiddlehangout link above was hilarious!

Will, I cannot dispute your opinion since it is based on a subjective judgment that you are entitled to make. However, I strongly question the number of knowledgeable practitioners of this music who would define pure drop as narrowly as you do. Going back to your comments about Matt Molloy, he was a trad player long before the Bothy Band and has recorded many solo trad albums since. I sincerely doubt that he would consider himself a modern player (as you call it) or someone trying to break new ground beyond simply being the best at trad that he can be. One can even argue that his use of piping techniques makes him more trad than those who don’t because flute as a trad instrument has a relatively short history in comparison to pipes and fiddle.

“AB - the fiddlehangout link above was hilarious!” - Jim Dorans, Worldfiddler

http://www.fiddlehangout.com/topic/39541

Oh, no! Not hilarious at all but rather goes directly to the heart of music. On that link a group of string players discussed how playing a whistle to study the phrasing of a tune or first singing a tune would considerably enhance their fiddle/violin playing. And that is so true. As a flute player I once spent a year as the student of a woman who not only was a very capable flute player but who lived for music, easily one of the most if not THE most musical person I have ever known. And over the course of that year she rarely ever used a flute to demonstrate what she had in mind. But rather, she would sing it. And those singing demonstrations had, and still have, a profound impact on how I play a flute. She taught me how to make a flute sing.

. . .And I suggested that in my very first post in this thread. Seems we’ve come full circle.

I would indeed agree that useing piping techniques would sit very well within the context of trad but thats my opinion alone. As you point out personal taste is key in any discussion of music, I find matts playing too polished and refined, too ‘civilised’ 🙂
I would disagree that my points are subjective, There are many objective differences in sound style and approach, the only thing that is subjective is if we like their use or not . Our personal opinions hold no sway whatsoever in a culture defining itself within it musical style[s].
Regarding my conception of ‘pure drop’, well that was formed by 30yrs in Ireland playing with all sorts of people. Its probably the only place bar none where the gestalt is formed not just by players I hasten to add, but by the community itself including dancers players and listeners, the ‘man on the street’ . I found that there is quite a tight definition and understanding of what is traditional and what is not .

This does not mean that one is better than the other which is subjective, just as your opinion that chris norman uses the ‘best of both worlds’ I disagree; he has superimposed ideas from his classical background and by doing so lost the traditional ‘edge’/ sound. But factually, objectively, he uses different techniques and achieves a different sound as a result which again is objectively , factually, inevitable as many techniques of playing can not be dissociated from the sound produced and vice versa.
He , in his own words, was/is looking for a more ‘refined ’sound which was exactly my criticism and why his playing doesnt sound traditional in relation to the actual traditional Irish players we have discussed here.
You appear to consider his tone and approach as superior [ best of both worlds] while I find it severely lacking in many facets and techniques that, though they might appear to the ‘classical mind’ as wrong, are not as this is simply a cultural projection…. it could be called a form of cultural imperialism . Im just glad that there are players who can sense this and have stood up to defend and define in their own way the cultural treasure we have that is exemplified by the old recordings and older players and styles.
Anyhow, Ive enjoyed debating this with you and others and I hope that between us all we can help clarify some of the issues even though we may be destined to never agree on our subjective musical tastes, though saying that, I also like Ian Anderson, who’s techniques are so ‘wrong’ 🙂

I have no issue with what you are saying here, Will. A point of clarification, though: When I say “the best of both worlds,” I mean that one can adopt both traditional styles and classical styles to great affect; however, that does not per force make the result superior, nor does it make it any less traditional, IMO. And although we may disagree, at least I know where you are coming from, as I said earlier. That makes a difference to me because debates are always best when it’s about advancing a viewpoint, not playing a game of one-upmanship.

Cheers.

[*“AB - the fiddlehangout link above was hilarious!” - Jim Dorans, Worldfiddler

http://www.fiddlehangout.com/topic/39541

Oh, no! Not hilarious at all but rather goes directly to the heart of music. On that link a group of string players discussed how playing a whistle to study the phrasing of a tune or first singing a tune would considerably enhance their fiddle/violin playing. And that is so true. As a flute player I once spent a year as the student of a woman who not only was a very capable flute player but who lived for music, easily one of the most if not THE most musical person I have ever known. And over the course of that year she rarely ever used a flute to demonstrate what she had in mind. But rather, she would sing it. And those singing demonstrations had, and still have, a profound impact on how I play a flute. She taught me how to make a flute sing.*]

Hi o‘muirgheasain, just a couple of points about this one. First off, whilst I understood the well-used analogy of wind instruments / the human voice to explain phrasing, I just thought the thread was funny because it was clear that some of these fiddle players were misunderstanding the use of the word ’breathing‘ in the various contexts where it was used. Some were confusing ’breathing‘ (as in letting the music ’breathe‘), with ’breathing’ (inhaling and exhaling). It starts with the second post. Human breath control while fiddling, and then it goes on from there 🙂

I entirely agree that listening to good whistle and flute players can help, or at least inform fiddlers on alternative phrasings in music. Sure, many of the great jazz violinists have had their style heavily influence by wind players.

I’d agree that a fiddle player who also already played whistle or flute, might have an expanded perspective on phrasing, possibly more so that someone who only played strings. However, I think it’s a complete nonsense to suggest to a fiddle player ‘get yourself a tin whistle and learn a few tunes on it’, to help with timing and phrasing issues with your fiddle playing. I know that you didn’t actually say that, but it has been suggested here in the past. A bit like trying to reduce complexity to simplicity by adding yet more complexity 🙂

I’ve taught many fiddle workshops, and I’ve never found the need for analogies with other instruments - all points can be demonstrated on the fiddle itself. OK, maybe the odd vocal non-word to imitate a sound (rather than interrupt the verbal flow by putting the thing under your chin to actually make that sound). Analogies can be useful at times, funny at others, but not really necessary, imo. OK, I’ll shut up now …

Sort of back on topic, re phrasing on flute and fiddle - the one that sticks in my mind is “Quilty Hills” (or is it “Quilty Town”?) - on an album with Matt Molly on flute, and Frankie Gavin on fiddle. I don’t recall the name of the album .. anyway, it’s been quite well recorded, and is a great example of two great players showing their different phrasings in the same tune at the same time.

@JD « “Quilty Hills” (or is it “Quilty Town”?) - on an album with Matt Molly on flute, and Frankie Gavin on fiddle. … a great example of two great players showing their different phrasings in the same tune at the same time. »

I think you’ll find the “two great players” were clones of each other, i.e. Messrs. Frankie fiddle Gavin & Frankie flute Gavin, playing “Kilty Town” on their “Up and Away” album. So clones _can_ have different phrasings, it would seem. 😉

[*I think you’ll find the “two great players” were clones of each other, i.e. Messrs. Frankie fiddle Gavin & Frankie flute Gavin, playing “Kilty Town” on their “Up and Away” album. So clones _can_ have different phrasings, it would seem.*]

Thanks for that, Stiamh. I only have that track on a compilation cassette, and whoever made it had credited fiddle to Frankie Gavin and flute to Matt Molloy 🙂

Hi Jim Dorans, Worldfiddler

OK, thanks for saying so. I was thinking of breathing in terms of musical phrases.

Doug

Jim, I think the point regarding whistle to help fiddling is in relation to achieving a specific stylistic approach .not per se to play the instrument , rather a way of attaining a particular sound. I would say the same to any fiddler , and box player etc etc that wishes to sound ‘Irish’ ie within the bounds of stylistic convention.
Unless one has been through a process one can not really comment on the internal results of that process apart from that of an observer.
I think you would be the first to acknowledge that you have a unique personal style with many influences outside of Irish music and do not aim for a particularly ‘Irish’ sound. But for those that do, its well worth taking the extra time and effort required for many reasons which have already been discussed numerous times in these mustard pages..

In this discussions I learn things all the time, Just the process of formulating my thoughts allows me to see things more clearly let alone reading other peoples views! We all carry unconscious baggage so to speak, all the myriad influemces from decades at this game, our teacher and theyre influences! , the way someone played a tune , a particular recording , personal temperament . Some of these influences help and some hinder our progress and of course we all aim for different results.
What I see as one function of this place is to allow us to make conscious the unconscious. Eg , we listen to a particular fluter and enjoy the music[or not] and through our discussions we notice things we might never have noticed before with the help of others viewpoints . It can allow us to clarify concepts and idea we have held and re-examine them in a new light.

I think fiddlers should learn some whistle first if they want to play Irish. Just a bit.

Pipers have to do it.

Fiddlers are obviously better than pipers [/sarcasm] but they should still do it.

I did it.

Interesting if Frankie flute Gavin plays the same tune differently to Frankie fiddle Gavin 🙂 be good to have a listen again and see how and perhaps why he plays so differently on the 2 instruments. Anyone care to analyse it and make a few comments? Id be interested. I admire his fluting , anyone care to comment on his breath and technical approach? just out of curiosity…

[*I think fiddlers should learn some whistle first if they want to play Irish. Just a bit.
Pipers have to do it.
Fiddlers are obviously better than pipers [/sarcasm] but they should still do it.
I did it.*]

Hi Ian, I disagree, but I can understand your thinking (I think), and wouldn’t argue with you, although I find discussion interesting. Pipers have to do it? Fair comment, but pipes and whistle are both wind instruments, obviously, and have much in common. Fiddle is not, and there’s a universe of difference there. That’s where I’m coming from.

Actually, some of the fiddlers I teach play the whistle anyway, simply because they like it, plus it’s portable, and easy to ‘whip out’ and transfer a ‘head’ tune to it. No one to date has ever made the ‘phrasing’ connection.

Pipers *have* to learn whistle first?

Balls. I missed that day in class.

Why should fiddlers learn whistle?

you know, I don’t advocate that fiddlers should learn whistle….but, I got a better understanding of cuts from playing whistle. I also figured out that there were tunes I played on fiddle that didn’t fit on the whistle, and so in learning how whistle players manage that I learned some new ways of playing tunes I already knew from the fiddle

This all said, if I were playing any-bloody-thing at the moment, it would be a change.

[*Why should fiddlers learn whistle?*]

I think it’s to do with the idea of understanding phrasing. I only play whistle a bit, but fiddle a lot. I’ve played with many whistle and flute players over the years, and I know what the good ones sound like, how they play their tunes, and how my fiddling interacts with them, etc. So, I’ll have stab at what I think the pro-whistle-learners meant in recommending that fiddlers should learn to play whistle.

Forgive the possible over-simplification and to some, stating the obvious. Please correct me if I say anything wrong 🙂

For the sake of simplicity, for now let’s assume that on both instruments, you are playing the simple melody - no ornaments, no tonguing, no staccato, ricochet etc.

Whistle - you blow and finger the holes to sound the notes. Soon, you’ll need to pause momentarily to take a breath, so you can continue to blow and sound more notes. That punctuation can be used to help phrase the note clusters you are playing. The duration of the breath is variable as well - in other words you don’t have to play until you *need* to take a breath, so there’s a lot of scope for different phrasing. Also, that ‘phrasing’ needs to be used cleverly to get some substitute for ‘volume’ dynamics and help the rhythm, because by and large the volume of the notes is fixed and cannot be altered. Something needs to be done bring life to your stream of notes (remember - no ornaments or special effects, yet!).

Fiddle - totally different. You can pick any tune a whistler plays, and you can simulate the whistler’s phrasing in your bowing, by using ghost bowing (the rhythm is preserved, but the note is silent, just like the very short silent gap when the whistler takes a breath. You have the added advantage of a wider range of dynamics using varying bow pressure and bow sounding-point. Finally, you can additionally phrase any note cluster several ways by different methods of slurring groups of notes.

So, yes there is something to be learned from listening to whistle players and the way they phrase notes. Of course there is. Should you buy a whistle and learn to play it, so that you can transfer that phrasing to your fiddle playing? If you want to, go ahead, if the idea appeals to you. It will be another musical experience.

Do you really need to? No, you don’t. I could show you in 10 minutes, face-to-face, with your fiddle in your hand.

Since we seem to have completely abandoned the original question, taken some turns, and finally wound up discussing the value of fiddlers learning to play whistle I’ll add my two cents ( and likely stir the pot a bit). As a lifelong bassist (dog-house and electric) I think everybody should have a working familiarity with it. What you can learn by playing bass (or at least lilting a bass part) will only add, in spades, to your understanding of every part of musical performance. Feel free to disagree. After 55 years with that instrument you won’t change my mind, but I am open to learning how you feel about it. No intention to start a fight, just curious.

Jim, I’m happy to hear you’re playing a bit of whistle. How do you like it?

[*Jim, I’m happy to hear you’re playing a bit of whistle. How do you like it?*]

Well, it does nothing for me, and I don’t do much for it, either 🙂

‘Should’ is perhaps not the choice of words i would have used but I agree in principle. I highly recomend it for many reasons. but not just for fiddlers , for anyone interested in playing Irish Music .
https://thesession.org/discussions/1011
https://thesession.org/discussions/34420

To digress from specifically the whistle, I think its agood idea to have a working familiarity with each area of the genre, to simply have a better understanding of where other players are coming from , So being able to sing a song, batter out a few steps , beat the ole drum in time, accompany etc etc because this knowledge can but help us appreciate and find our uniques position within a musical ensemble. So I agree with Ross, but then Im a bass player too since I was a boy. 🙂

Back to the whistle, well as jim has pointed out partly its to do woth phraseing, but its also very usefull for other reasons such as you might find in theose other threads. But basically, by learning to play the whistle we change our brain, litterally , we change . By going through a process, such as , say , learning to stand on one leg, after we have accomplished them all sorts of changes in ability and undestanding occur as an inevitable result. Some of these changes cant be named or labled [by me at least ] but the result is that our mind expands to deal with the new ‘skill’ .
Its not neccassarily something we can pinpoint , its more a feeling. We know, having been through the process, that we have changed, our perception and abilities have expanded and as a result we see things and hear things in a different way. We learn to approach the music with a different ear. So even if we cant ellucidate clearly we know that it has helped us in some manner, otherwise we wouldnt recomend it .

In this day and age of achivement and specialisation and analysis, intellectulalisation and head work , there is still a place for syntheses , feeling and the heart. As well as aiming to achieve the hights of skill in a particular field we can also aim to broaden the bass of our understanding and I feel that by doing so we actually allow ourseleves to ‘raise higher’ by havinga more stable bass from which to operate.
To put it in terms of my other ‘proffession’ its all very well being a master boxer but if the game becomes a wrestle all those boxing skills come to naught. A complete fighter needs to be able to operate comfortably in all ranges and as they say‘ if you cant wrestle you cant fight’. in that area of life ‘specialisation’ can be a disadvantage Ok that perhaps is the limit of the sporting analogy.
Back to the music. I know some amazing musicians but at some point we all come to limits . Attaining skill in another instrument allows them in turn to progress further on their first instrument, to circumnavigate their previous limits and grow exponentially.
But at the end of the day , perhaps the best I can say as a recomendation , is that its a fun thing to be able to do. Keep at it Jim, I bet that at some point you will find that somehow , something has changed . if not I will buy you a pint . 😎

Quite, Will. I’ve picked up bits of various instruments over the years, am approaching proficiency on only a few, but all have contributed vastly to my knowledge.

@AB and Will - just to clarify - in my previous post I should have said “I *can* only play whistle a bit, but fiddle a lot.” Meaning, I can knock a simple tune out it of a whistle, but it’s not something I like to do. I actually dislike the instrument, OK?

Anyway, that in no way detracts from AB’s well-wishes or Will’s interesting and very informative post above. btw, Will, you looking for a cage fight gig? I know a cuppla chicks that may be interested at the right price. (joking) 🙂

Ross mentioned how the value of playing bass in understanding musical performance. I’d agree with that.

I play guitar and piano too. I’ve found that these have helped me to get a better understanding of keys, modes, harmony - composition too, more so than playing / learning another melody instrument.

I posted a video of me playing my tin whistle in Bb on youtube. If anyone can see what I’m doing wrong can you please tell me? I didn’t use any ornamentation for this video since I’m just gonna delete it later, but the song I played was Coulter’s Candy.

Video >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wnt1mZ61jKA

play video

Thanks for the video, Sal. After playing less than a year I’d say you’re doing very well.
I don’t think your tone is screechy. It’s not perfect but it’s obvious you’re working with it.
Relax a little bit & maybe don’t lift your fingers so high.

About the second or third phrase you go from a high note back down to the low note (all holes covered). The low note isn’t as strong as it could be. Probably because the fingers on your lower hand are higher than they need to be & then don’t go down exactly right.

Keep breathing, as they say, and with time you’ll work through the roughness.
I understand why you’re going easy on ornamentation but you might want to experiment with things like sliding up to a note here & there; if you like.

Thank you for your suggestion, I’ll keep working at it 🙂

And yeah, I do need to work on my fingers. I always end up lifting them up higher than necessary. Kind of a bad habit I developed when I first started to teach myself 😏

You’re doing fine Sal, but as mentioned above, you don’t actually need to lift your fingers so high off the barrel of the whistle. Try to keep them closer.
Also - “Coulter’s Candy” is a well-known Scottish children’s song [ and to avoid confusion with occasional current usage, by that I mean literally - a song has words and is sung ]. It’s always a good idea [ IMHO ] to learn tunes like this by listening to the words , and listen to where the singer takes a breath, which will give you a good guide to where you can take a breath when playing the tune on the whistle.
Here’s a recording of Hamish Imlach singing it - there are several more versions on “Youtube” [ including one by Donovan ! ] Give them a listen, and best of luck with your whistle playing.
Kenny

https://youtu.be/8uO9aeERILI

play video

Commenting here just to be able to find the Tom Morrison recording again.

thanks good discussion..