Drive. what is it?

Drive. what is it?

Dow asks:

"Am I the only person who has a problem with the word "drive" when applied to music. I hear it used to mean so many different nuances that it’s almost like it’s totally lost its meaning. And it’s often used by people who don’t know what they’re talking about. So what’s wrong with being a safety net? To me it just means that you’re on the beat and not doing anything too flash. Isn’t that what you purists always say you want from backers? It’s like: make up your minds for god’s sake!"

I reply:
If you’re strumming away on the beat and not doing anything too flash, chances are you might as well just put that ol’ guitar down, start up your metronome and retire to the bar for a pint. I’m not saying you should play out of time with lots of twidlly bits, it’s more subtle than that. When played well, these diddley tunes have an inherantly powerful pulse that defies the rigour of mechanical timekeeping, so if you play mechanically, as Arty does,the best you can hope to be is inofensive, but you are more likely to be holding back the drive. (And I don’t mean stopping people from speeding up, of course)

The thing about good diddling is it is ensemble stuff, everybody contributes. You keep your ears constanlty open to the subtleties of the music around you and you respond accordingly. That’s where the drive comes from. From a tention created by the give and take of the constant response to diddley stimuli. Throw in someone who just sits "on the beat" and you’ve ruined it

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Re: Drive. what is it?

I suppose ‘drive’ is what changes a ‘good band’ into a ‘WOW! band’(if you get my meaning). If people always stuck to what the music says, no one would enjoy it.

Re: Drive. what is it?

Give Arty some credit. Have you heard him play on that early Keenan LP? Magic. He played quite agressively in my opinion, and was pretty much in tune with Keenan’s style.

If you want driving guitar playing mixed with sweet subtlety, Steve Cooney is the man. Have a listen to his work on Meitheal with Séamus Begley.

Re: Drive. what is it?

One example of a "flash" thing to do is to insert passing chords, and to apply jazz-type chord substitution. A talented player such as Martin Cahill can do this very effectively and contribute to making a wonderful arrangement of a tune for a stage or recorded performance. But these flashy touches are very powerful and, in a session context, can completely hijack what the melody players were about. In other words, the guitarist can end up dominating the tune - not the result most sessions are after.

Have I missed your point? Were you only referring to "drive" in the context of rythm?

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That’s Dennis Cahill, of course.

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Re: Drive. what is it?

I think drive is all rhythm. I don’t mean playing on beat, (That’s for granted) but making accompanyment interesting, changing and dynamic - sometimes emphasizing, say, in a reel, the off beats, or one and seven, then five, not always the same beats each measure. I think that’s what gives such bands as Solas or Dervish "Drive". It’s like pushing the music forward by using different rhytyms.

Re: Drive. what is it?

I for one make a big deal about *drive* as Michael calls it. You can have x number of guitarists who come along to a session, and simply follow the tunes with chords (not always the right ones), chugging along with the beat (or lagging behind), keeping the same tone and volume throughout. That can be wearing on the ear, and I thing that’s what Michael means.

Now imagine a guitarist (or other string player whose sole purpose is quality accompaniment) turns up at the session. He plays powerfully but not too loudly, and his drive is noticable (some call it pushing and pulling the timing, no hint of a metronome here), his dynamics are good (load to soft to loud to suit), and his choice of chords add colour to the overall tone of the melody. He can play *fast* and still sound un-hurried, and he has complete control over and a deep knowledge of his instrument and the music.

Having said all that, there is still a place for accompaniment which is relatively unskilled, but in time and in tune with everything else. By relatively unskilled, I mean competent enough to blend in without adding or subtracting much from the session as a whole.

Then there are all the types either side of these two types of player. I should also add "she" beside "he" in the previous lines, as there of course are great girlie as well as bloke players. :-)

Jim

Re: Drive. what is it?

"Drive" in the context of Bluegrass was explained to me as the way certain instruments in the band will deliberately come in a hair ahead of the beat, so that in a really good band, the effect produced by the tension between the instruments which are spot-on and the instruments which are ahead is what creates the drive. Or so I was told. Which really, I think, just backs up what Michael said. You can’t be always metronomically precise. Sometimes that tension comes from the interchange between the players, or sometimes a good player can have it all by him/herself. But I think it comes from a skillful manipulation of the steady beat, not a lazy disregard for it. :-)

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Re: Drive. what is it?

It’s interesting that grego makes a distinction between "drive in the context of rythm" as opposed to what I asume he means as drive in the context of melody. I think that one of the great strengths of diddley music is the rythmic drive within the melodies. This is one of the reasons it’s hard to accompany. Look at it this way, I like to play "with" people rather than have people accompany me.

And, yes. So as not to be too negative about Arty, I really like him on that early Keenan LP

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Re: Drive. what is it?

I know what Michael means but what’s the best way to describe it? Maybe, something like the guitar and/or other backing instruments representing a "rythmic engine room driving the jigs and reels" as opposed to just "keeping time" or following. It’s this pulse that keeps on going throughout the set and is so effective that a few "bum notes" from the melody instruments or even gaps will be less signicant if not going unoticed.
If you listen to the opening bars of "Kesh jig" by Bothy Band and Donal Lunny’s playing, this is a perfect example of "driving" accompaniment. Another band who always excelled in this was Shetland’s Hom Bru and there are many others.

Re: Drive. what is it?

No. The tune is the engine, infact the whole thing is the engine.

Once you start aloting different people/instruments different jobs (like the person who starts the tune is at the steering wheel and the accelerator and his more sober mate is the brakes) you loose the whole ideal of the ensemble. The strummers must be with you at your shoulder. Give and take

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Re: Drive. what is it?

Drive simply refers to the forward momentum of a tune. For my money, Scottish bands tend to have more "drive" than Irish ones because they create more of an arrangement around a tune, rather than just play it as they would at a session. When I see a concert by the Tannihill Weavers, The Battlefield Band, or Silly Wizard, I feel like I get more of a performance than a band like Altan, that plays the stuff in a pretty straightforward manner.

Of course, playing ITM as if you were in a session rather than concert setting does not preclude playing with a great deal of drive, but I think the examples I gave of Scottish bands shows what drive is all about in Celtic music.

And before you get all hot about your favorite Irish band that you think trumps any Scottish band, remember that I am just giving my opinion on bands I think exemplify drive, and I don’t want to start an argument about Scottish vs. Irish, okay?

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Re: Drive. what is it?

Drive is the momentum inherent in the music. If a musician can successfully get inside of its mass they can move forward in perfect synchronicity and apply pressure on the leading edge. If the musician is successful it will increase the inertia and the music will feel un-stoppable. This is where the “high” comes from – you feel like you’re on a ride or flying. The energy that’s generated will make some of the musicians feel like they’re surfing a wave or riding an up-draft in a hang-glider. When a session is in this mode everyone feels the momentum together and the shared experience is a public performance. (Just kidding… simmer down now)

Re: Drive. what is it?

The problem is though, half of the melody players want you to be a safety net, and half
want you to play with more "drive"

You can’t please all the people all the time.

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Re: Drive. what is it?

Drive begins long before any backers enter the picture. Good players (maybe I should say VERY good players) can summon up "drive" playing on their own. Great examples I can think of are Seamus Quinn, Harry Bradley, Frankie Gavin, Tony MacMahon, etc. If you need backing to achieve a sense of drive, I would say this is pseudo-drive! Ha!

Good backing can be great, of course. I’ve found that the more I play, though, the more I enjoy playing without backing. There are very few that enhance the experience for me.

Lots more to say about this - but it’s Fri afternoon! Time to go drinking. I mean to play - whoops.

Chris

Re: Drive. what is it?

The difficulty with some guitar accompanyists is that they’re happy to play quietly in the background if they’re not too good. But then if they’re really good rythm guitarists, they feel their great strumming has to be heard at the same volume as the melody.
Recently, my husband’s started to play my discarded mandolin. He’s been a great rythm guitarist but has tended to drown everybody out by bashing it out enthusiastically, but now that he plays a melody instrument too, he’s beginning to appreciate that a guitarist, no matter how good can wreck things if he/she’s not careful.
As for guitar ornaments, it’s like everything else, they’re used sparingly.

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Re: Drive. what is it?

Johnny Gaughan, when he’s the driver with Kane and Christian and MnaG and occasionally me when they’re *really* stuck, is a great force to be reckoned with. Apart from that, Johnny’s effusive and ebulient personality are just worthy of note in any case - and no, Cath, he doesn’t drive his guitar sparingly, it’s in yer face, and begod does the the big fella not just add to the sound?

Like myself he’s a fambly man these days, so we don’t see him out so much. His time out is band stuff rather than session stuff. I think I knocked out a tape to you with Kane, Christian, some John, and some of ‘yo’ - some of that has now gone to sandy’s archives…whether any of it is worthy of freezing for posterity is another matter (the recording quality is poor - but for archivists it might be worth hanging onto for K+C’s efforts. And where they’ll be 5 years from now.)

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Drive is great. The bow is the drive for the old fiddle.
Michael are you involved in the OranMor/Western Festival??
thanks

Mike

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Re: Drive. what is it?

ah,the great johnny g & his performing newts amidst the thermos of tea and the digestive bikkies.here’s to him!

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oh,& pat kilbride is a graet backer for if it’s the drive you want

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Peerie Willie!

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Re: Drive. what is it?

hello michael,
remember the old adae-bouzouki-discussion…?
my favourite is: bouzouki or guitar playing
between melody and accompaniment. drive doesnt
need ear-jumping bass-lines necessarily.

ciao, gunther

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Re: Drive. what is it?

DRIVE is what the member from Alice Springs, Australia has to do to play a little music with a like-minded individual. Now: if drive means "heart and soul", then she has both, and I bet the music’s good after a long and dusty road…

Re: Drive. what is it?

Looks like this thread has "driven" my point home. Have we agreed what drive means? If so then I haven’t picked up on it yet.

I shall be watching this thread closely to see what’s fashionable amongst the melody players as to how backers should back tunes so that I know how I’m "supposed" to be playing. Hey somebody out there please tell me how I should be "pushing and pulling" the beat, as in slowing down and speeding up, as opposed to keeping in time. What’s up with that?

As a rhythm player, I see it this way. In a session you’re playing with melody players who have either good or crap rhythm. If they have crap rhythm, it seems they consider that your job is to *supply* the rhythm for them so that they don’t have to bother listening to each other properly. If they have good rhythm then you get to *follow* the rhythm and play off what they’re doing which is what backing should be about. Where this "drive" comes in, who knows? Is that what you’re talking about? Or is it playing ahead of the beat? Playing trendy syncopated rhythms? Playing a bit louder so that you’re dictating the beat to everyone else? Playing jazz substitutions? How does that mean drive? Does it sound cool so it lifts the melody players’ heart rates and makes them play with more oomph?

I still think it’s a bunch of meaningless scheidt, but maybe I just don’t get it and all the melody players do, so please enlighten me.

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It’s good to be able to lay into melody players once in a while :-)

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So you didn’t agree with anything anyone said Dow… or are you just commenting about the negative ones?

Re: Drive. what is it?

drive is simultaneously playing the 15th fret and the bass notes with while banging on the banjo skin with a spare left arm. Only aliens can do this! haha

drive is laughing at one’s own jokes

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What negative ones? No! I’m just saying: please someone explain to me what the issue is. "Drive" is just such a vague expression and it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up when I read it or hear it spoken. So I’d like all melody players to agree on what it means so I can go ahead and make my playing "driving".

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I’ll make that clearer. Please explain to me what this thread is about, because it looks like "driving" is this secret term that everyone knows the meaning of but me, like that swearword you heard in the school yard that you had to ask your older brother the meaning of when you got home from school. Because from here it looks as though different people understand different things by the term. What’s the point in that? What descriptive power has an adjective got when the speakers of the language can’t agree what concept it represents? (it’s like "performance" —- no no only kidding (-:)no it’s like saying "can I have a cup of tea please", "what’s ‘tea’?", "it’s the stuff in the cupboard above the cooker", "what, you mean plates?", "no, I mean tea. Oh never mind I’ll get it myself"…

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With the acception of my humorous reference to an earlier brief thread, I tried to do that in my entry, Dow.

Re: Drive. what is it?

See Jack reading that it makes sense to me, because from your description I have a reference point. Yes, I’ve been to a session, felt that momentum, that feeling where the music is playing itself and you don’t have to make any effort with it, because it’s like a ball rolling down a hill, you might just have to give it a nudge now and again to keep it going in the right direction, and it makes you want to dance but you can’t cuz the pub’s too crowded to play an instrument and dance at the same time, so you stamp your foot.

But is that what drive is? Isn’t that a more abstract thing than drive? If it’s drive then thanks, now I know what it is. But do other melody players agree with you?

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Ok, I re-read mine and I suppose I was talking more about what the groove is. Maybe by "driving" it’s when you level off the rhythm, take out any swing so it sounds like a steam locomotive at full throttle, as opposed to putting a lift in it where it sounds more like a horse trotting.

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*seriously* I think michael, zed and others are discussing a lovely fine thing..that split second that reveals itself when both melody and back-up player know they can either delay or push the beat a hair. The core rythem has been laid out, is "alive" because everyone agrees to it’s existence. It has been placed there by either one really strong player, or two concurring medium players, or a whole roomful of sensitive beginners. The beat has been agreed on, has been recognized. The players are tuned in to the same pulse. The music becomes driven when the players are comfortable, so that they may make metronomic adjustments to the common beat, adjustents which act as signals: "I am listening to you", "I hear your push, or delay". At the same time this shifts ask questions like: "Are you listening to me?" It makes the music come alive because the message is sent from player to player, as a living ebb and flow. The more comfortable and experienced the musicians, the more they are able to play with this rythmic tool. I believe the most blatent examples might be with singers, and called phrasing..any comments? I am sure vocal phrasing and flute breathing-commas (my lingo is deteriorating)…….


According to Western Theory, there are three "elements" of music. In order of importance, they are considered to be:

Rhythem
Melody
Harmony

Rythem is first! yay the winner! then comes Melody on the inside track and throwing up turf, and then comes ba-by-in-the-ba-by-carriage haha

Re: Drive. what is it?

Do other melody players agree with me? Hell if I know, but if you want to talk about "drive"; at our last gig they threatened mutiny because they said if I didn’t stop stomping my foot it was going to "drive" them mad. :-D

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Ahhh… Ronnie trots out the ‘ol three legged stool theory.

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So is "drive" the opposite of "groove" then? "Groove" to me means the effect you get when you have a solid, swung rhythm, and it just makes you wanna "shake that ass! hmm yeaaaah grooveh hahaha!" So is drive just a different take on it, like the Donegal/Altan/full-on take on the tunes?

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Stomping my foot. I can’t help it! It’s that grooveh rhythm just sets it going and it just gets louder and louder until I’m practically putting my foot thru’ the floor. Thank god our pub’s so noisy no-one can hear anything anyway so my stomping just merges in with everything else. Hey Jack if I ever come to one of your public performances at the Plough we have the potential to really irritate a lot of people :-)

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Hmmm… uh… yea, I guess. What ass were you wanting to shake Dow? I don’t know how well that would go down in a sesh really… talk about bad session etiquette. I would think you would wait until you went home with her, or got a hotel room or something first. Persuming she was willing to let you do such a thing.

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If you come to the Plough, Dow, the public might perform something on you if you’re not careful. :-D

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Duh you missed a great opportunity to crack a lame English concertina joke there Jack, and I fed you the line and everything. Okay I’ll do it for you:

Me: "…if I ever come to one of your public performances at the Plough we have the potential to really irritate a lot of people"

Jack: "yeah especially if you play your English mousetrap :-D hahahahaha"

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I preferred to be unpredictable and pick on you for not being able to accept you were wrong on that other thread. I am impressed however with how you have adapted the "mousetrap" idea into your English concertina lexicon.

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yea! kin i come I is a foot stompin mama.. AN i wear HEAvy boots…

umm.. ohh.. what was it,, something important and relevant.. oh yea,, about the groove.. thats the core rythem i talked about 2 posts back.. now the drive is the manouevering of the groove

Man - oeuvre a person (well, a guy actually, but doncha know its historically a mans world.. not a small world.. haha noticing "oeuvre=eye"

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Sure, you can be a foot stomping mama if you want, Ronnie, but I’d be careful if I was you should you find yourself at a sesh with Dow or he might get an inkling to shake your arse.

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Ronnie? Veronica? Male? Female?

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Uh oh… look out Ronnie.

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This thread is so confusing. Michael Gill, come and explain it all to me!

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Who’s Ronnie?

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Ah now I see. And I thought you were talking about an imaginary person called Ronald. I realised that you’re a bit funny in the head because you play anglo, but I never thought you’d go so far as to talk to imaginary people.

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sorry….i was way-laid in another thread

my name is Veronica Janice Boyd, but i have a wee shtick as ronnieboyd, a footstompin’ mama who sings the aulde stuff in a new way.

haha its often dow jack and vboyd at this late hour. you two definetly have a push-pull drive regarding your various bellows.

moo

this is a good thread that Gill proposed. I found it’s source in a slightly earlier "Are Guitars Trad Enuf?" post.michael is adept at pasteand cut and thankfully rescued the kernel of what I believe is a very good discussion. Good because, as I mentioned earlier, (grunt grinff unghh), my experience (in the material world - we are in the cyberworld now) is that museos (i like that term) are reticent to verbalize their musical experience….

i have gone to hundreds of parties but what do we do? well we don’t do what the non-players do, which is talk..ie sort out their psyches, align themselves, solve their inner riddles,(or maybe complicate them) no, we would find a spare room in the back and play music. But would we talk? No not much.

So here we are now, here i am now, with a forum, and a lifetime of bottled energy..look out!!!

umm what was the subject?

gotta go scroll…

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ah yes.. the three legged theory.. well as ol bucky fuller said,, its the mos stable form ..

stable=

1. place we keep our horses (racehorses too)
2. secure, solid

therfore..stable means most secure, um safest place on the homestead?

Re: Drive. what is it?

My interpretation : A band has drive when you can listen to an entire track without your mind wandering from the music.. if there’s something in the playing to keep you continually interested. Perhaps. Drive is energy, I suppose.

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So if drive is energy, what’s the difference between drive and lift?

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The Bothy Band

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Dow, a ‘lift" is what you’re giving someone when you "drive" them someplace in your car.

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That’s the best definition I’ve heard yet :-)

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So is it an Anglo lift, or an English lift? grrrrrrrrrrr :-)

Jim

Re: Drive. what is it?

From what I see (or remember from the above ) various terms have been used to describe "drive" ranging from "forward momentum" or "push/delay from the beat".

Another term that may be useful in describing drive is "angle", which Martin Hayes once spent the last bit of a Willie`s Class commenting. You get a good drive if everyone at a session plays with the same angle, i.e the same understanding to whether the tune has forward or backwards angle (or momentum if you like).

Re: Drive. what is it?

I’m an ex-professional guitarist who has picked up several other fretted melody instruments over the past decade. i’ve played in bands of all kinds and sizes for the last 25 years.

I think Jim Moran summed it up pretty well. Drive is something all good players, and certainly the best, develop. Drive is as important to dance-based Celtic music as tempo, dynamics, ornaments, and tone. A top player jumps in, tunes up, and drives a tune immediately. This is what dancers seek out in musicians and bands too. It’s not about ego, although one has to have confidence to play with drive. It’s about the music, ultimately. It has nothing to do with playing fast, or playing in like a metronome—any good player should be able to play at a steady tempo—but it has everything to do with the tune and its authentic, heartfelt performance, particularly within an ensemble. Listen to a really good ceili band—they drive the tune, and the dancers respond. Listen to any of the best Celtic players—they’ve all got it.

Drive can really make a session come alive. I can drive a session pretty hard, but only when the players are weak and they need someone to lay down the tempo and feel of the tune. (Just for the record, I’ve also made the mistake of playing way too strongly in a session. Now I try to lay back more often.) Strong players I follow in formation, just like a set of demonstration airplanes or jets at an airshow. Ideally, the whole is greater than the sum. The ensemble drives the tunes, the sound is transcendent and danceable, and the average listener goes "Wow!"

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Dow, good descriptions of it so far:
"Drive begins long before any backers enter the picture. Good players (maybe I should say VERY good players) can summon up "drive" playing on their own."
Chris McGrath

"Maybe by drive is when you level off the rhythm, take out any swing so it sounds like a steam locomotive at full throttle, as opposed to putting a lift in it where it sounds more like a horse trotting."
Jack Gilder

"I follow in formation, just like a set of demonstration airplanes or jets at an airshow. Ideally, the whole is greater than the sum. The ensemble drives the tunes"
stevieguitar

"Yes, I’ve been to a session, felt that momentum, that feeling where the music is playing itself and you don’t have to make any effort with it, because it’s like a ball rolling down a hill"
Dow.
You almost have it here. Except the ball is’t rolling down hill with just the force gravity pulling it. There are engines in there, all pushing and pulling against each other in formation.

Maybe your lack of understanding of drive is that you have this "feeling where the music is playing itself"? It ain’t. it is well and truly being played. Try to focus on this.

There’s another good one here: "You get a good drive if everyone at a session plays with the same angle, i.e the same understanding to whether the tune has forward or backwards angle" Halldor.

This is good because it shows how the ball is not just in freefall. The word Halldor is looking for here is "torque". A mechanical engineer might be able to explain this better, but torque is basically an angular force on, say, a drive shaft. It is the measure of a force’s tendency to produce torsion and rotation about an axis.
The axis is the tune and the force is the musician

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Re: Drive. what is it?

Thanks Michael. I’ve looked at your list and I promise I’m trying really hard to understand, but I still don’t see how they’re all saying the same thing. Is it what Jack says where you take out the swing and level off the rhythm, or is it the momentum thing? I think you can get momentum even when you play stuff with swing.

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I’m not sure that drive and swing are mutually exlusive, but they generally appear to be opporsites. If a tune has a bounce to it, it makes it much harder to drive, that’s for sure. Good drive can come from accentuating different areas of the tune, so if everyone is just sitting on that back beat it can kind of drag.

Momentum is just a part of drive though. Momentum on its own is just the ball rolling down the hill. To give the momentum drive, you need to apply torque.

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Re: Drive. what is it?

So if a tune is swung it can have momentum, but it doesn’t have drive… is that what you’re saying? So, that would mean that Altan and Lunasa are driving because their swing is minimal, whereas Dervish aren’t driving because their reels and jigs are always played in more heavily dotted rhythms? So why do bands like Dervish get described as "driving" then? This is all very confusing. It’s no wonder people use the term in all different ways. I think you could be the only person in the world who understands the detail of its semantic domain, Michael. Respek.

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I think "driving" is just a word reviewers and other people use because it sounds better and cleverer than "playing fast". I still think it’s pretentious and sounds like namby-pamby meaningless jargon.

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I hope this thread isn’t over - I am unplugged on weekends and missed the whole thing!

Consider this - in a session with more than five or six musicians, it really becomes impossible to listen to everybody as an individual and focus on playing yourself. Big sessions like this can get messy, or often any rythmic subtlety is sacrificed for some common denominator. But I’ve been in big session where the whole thing "clicked" and there was that thing that this thread is about. This is my theory -

Since it’s too difficult to listen to five+ other players and try to react to all of them, I think that all of the players tacitly decide on the same "version" of the tune. What I mean by version is this (sorry if this sounds a little new-agey): imagine a tune, some reel, say the Five mile chase or something like that. Now imagine all the different possible ways of playing it. Maybe it helps to think of different people playing the tune, the Martin Hayes to the Paddy Glackin. So I imagine that all of these versions are floating around and when someone goes to play the tune, they try to grab hold of one of these versions. The firmer their grip, the better. The best you can do is fully articulate the "version" you were trying to go for. When your rythm falters, even a tiny bit, this is your grip loosening.

So when a bunch of people play together, they don’t necessarily have to listen to everyone - they have to figure out which version everyone will go for. If they can decide on the same one, all each individual has to do is grab that version. So when it all comes together, I imagine that each person has a "hand" on that version, which is sort of hovering somewhere in the middle (I warned you.) It’s this idea, or tune concept, or whatever you want to call it, that keeps everybody together.

And I like the idea of torque, I think this is a big part of what characterizes a "version." Swing and groove are really the same as this, I think. So here’s the taxonomy - at the top is groove. This is how much swing there is, how much backbeat, how much ahead or behind the beat (angle). Drive is a sub-category in that you need the groove first. I think we mean drive to describe a certain high energy, on or a little in front of the beat kind of grooves. How’s that?

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I never said it can’t drive if it’s swung, I said it was harder to drive. You can supply torque to a swinging tune but it’s very difficult because of that monotonous back beat. If you have anything rythmically monotonous it has a tendancy just to roll along. Please try to understand this Dow. I don’t wan’t you to be that kid in the play ground who doesn’t get the joke. This may all sound like namby-pamby meaningless jargon when it’s writen down, but it’s more than that, believe me.

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So, seeing we’re busy rendering the meaningful meaningless: it if has "drive" and/or "swing" can it also have "lift"?

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Re: Drive. what is it?

Okay Michael I’ll give you a break :-) You’re making sense. My point about drive was that a lot of people overuse and misuse the word. I’m still pretty sure that a lot of people who use the word wouldn’t be able to talk about what it really means as eloquently as you have. Surely you must agree with that?! Well, that’s why the word annoys me.

Re: Drive. what is it?

Yes Dow, the term is overused by people who don’t know what they’re talking about. And you had the decency to put your hand up and call in the emperor’s clothes

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Re: Drive. what is it?

What does "to call in the emperor’s clothes" mean? Man, youse all need to start speaking Geordie so that thickos like what I am can understand.

Re: Drive. what is it?

Yeah I’ve heard the story before, but…?

Re: Drive. what is it?

Did I ever say that "drive" doesn’t exist? All I said was that the term annoys me because it has been overused to the extent that it’s become/becoming meaningless, and if it does mean something, nobody seems to know what that something is apart form Michael Gill. Maybe you could write us a thesession.org dictionary of meaningless trad jargon :-)

Re: Drive. what is it?

Great idea Dow. Lets start with

Traditional:
noun/verb/adjective, Bla bla bla … 2,500 words later …

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Re: Drive. what is it?

Michael you crack me up!

Re: Drive. what is it?

I love Lewis Carol too

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Re: Drive. what is it?

When Alice tried to enter a "closed session":-

`It wasn’t very civil of you to sit down without being invited,’ said the March Hare.

`I didn’t know it was your table,’ said Alice; `it’s laid for a great many more than three.’

Re: Drive. what is it?

Isn’t it what we do when too many bodran/banjo/spoons/fiddle/gitter/bogpipe…..(choose according to your pet hates)players turn up at good sessions. Best to avoid the local constabulary tho’.