Are these two melodies / tunes the same??

Are these two melodies / tunes the same??

Here’s an auditory puzzle - are these two following melodies / tunes the same??

First up, the well known and very fine (though hackneyed some might say) Raglan Road by Luke Kelly. Apparently sung to the march tune known as the Dawning of the Day or Fáinne Geal an Lae.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuafmLvoJow


Second, the aforesaid Fáinne Geal an Lae sung by Iarla O’Lionaird and becoming better known perhaps due to increased exposure. The march tune version recorded by Liam O’Flynn some years ago, popularised now by Steve Cooney I think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKIYyY67yM4


Clearly the languages & lyrics are quite different. But are they the same melody, I ask your experienced ears. No tricks here, just an opinion sought :)

Re: Are these two melodies / tunes the same??

Luke Kelly man, what a legend.

Re: Are these two melodies / tunes the same??

If I heard the second one without being pre-warned it would have immediately have brought to mind the first one. Aren’t they variants of the same melody ?

Regarding them as ‘the same’ might result in loss of information though.

Re: Are these two melodies / tunes the same??

I’d think myself that they are of the same family but dissimilar as well. Share the same basic opening and closing phrase but different structure in that the standard ‘Dawning of the Day’ has a 1221 structure whilst ‘Fáinne Geal an Lae’ as presented above has a 1121 form. The ‘answering’ part has a different shape as well.

I’m curious as to what others think as when I hear Iarla O’Lionaird sing or Liam O’Flynn play - I don’t really connect with ‘Raglan Road’ for want of a better description. If I play the Liam O’Flynn version though after listening to ‘Dawning of the Day’, I could slip into the latter easily enough, as they share a similar opening.

Re: Are these two melodies / tunes the same??

I was taught the second one as an air by Aoife Granville at our Irish Festival in June. She said that it was the early version of the song. I think I prefer it!

Re: Are these two melodies / tunes the same??

I was taught An fainne gael an lea by Josephine Nugent from Clare 25 years ago in the Crescent Arts Centre in Belfast. It was exactly the same as Raglan Road. Maybe this performance is being "tradded up?"
Josephine also began teaching us "the walls of limerick." When I told her that tune was "the rattling bog" she said she’d never heard of the rattling bog.

Re: Are these two melodies / tunes the same??

They are undoubtedly related tunes, to some degree. But I would not consider them *the same tune*.

It is the nature of traditional singing that one tune may be shared between different songs (i.e. words) and one set of wors may be sung to different tunes. As an example, the nursery rhyme ‘Jack and Jill’ (nursery rhymes are, in my opinion, an important part of traditional music) is sung to two tunes that I know of, one of which is also the tune to Blaydon Races; the other one is also the tune to ‘Little Bo Peep’.

AG: "I was taught An fainne gael an lea by Josephine Nugent from Clare 25 years ago in the Crescent Arts Centre in Belfast. It was exactly the same as Raglan Road. Maybe this performance is being "tradded up?"

…so, no, I don’t think this performance is being ‘tradded up’ - it’s just another tune for the same song. The Raglan Road is no less ‘traditional’ - just better known and therefore perceived as being a bit ‘pedestrian’.

Re: Are these two melodies / tunes the same??

Well that’s what I would have thought too Creadur. The Iarla O’Lionaird / Liam O’Flynn song/ march has had quite a lot of airtime on RTE1 radio this last year or so - you hear it popping up in various guises. I picked it as you do on the whistle and after hearing a nice version this Sunday gone on Sunday Miscellany, chanced to look here to see if it in the Tunes section.

I found that it had been submitted by member ‘boydp’ a year or so ago under the regular ‘Dawning of the Day’ in both 3/4 and 4/4 versions but as a comment and not as a setting.

Since the tune/ march version is quite clearly not the ‘same tune’, I thought to enter it as a new tune and took the time to add the appropriate comments, links and note re ‘boydp’ above. The version I put in reflected what I’d recorded off the radio.

However conservatism is obviously at play here and I was quite surprised to see it taken out and put back in under the regular ‘Dawning of the Day’ as a version of that. Which it isn’t - it’s the air and march known as Fáinne Geal an Lae.

It doesn’t particularly bother me, I know the difference. But when I think of the undocumented self penned rubbish that is often posted in the tunes here and left for eternity and consider that I’ve submitted a useful traditional piece, complete with source comments, I’m not too impressed and wonder why anyone should bother to make the effort??

Re: Are these two melodies / tunes the same??

@Kilcash: That sounds like a case of ‘too many tune submissions, not enough time’. Jeremy probably saw the similarity in the first couple of bars and assumed the rest would follow. A quick email to Jeremy ought to sort it.

Re: Are these two melodies / tunes the same??

Thanks for the clips: more info on Wikipedia: seems the tune is a lot older (17th C) than the "Raglan Road" song, hence potential for change over the years (much as Bredna said.)