Yes, in my last topic, one of the sessioneers mentioned about using the tailpieces with built-in tuners over the ones with separate ones…
I use one with tuners added on, and sometimes it is a bit of a pain to tune occasionally, but it’s ok.
SO
::Makes poll::
Tailpiece with added tuners
VS.
Tailpiece with built-in tuners
And if you use a built-in, could you please tell which one ye have? ^_^
ThankS!
Armand0o
The pegs on my fiddle have this nasty predisposition for popping loose and the strings all go limp and the sound post falls over. I like having fine tuners because I don’t like messing with the pegs, lest one string goes *boing* while I’m trying to tune its neighbor. I used to have tuners that were added to the tailpiece, but now I have a tailpiece with built-in tuners. I prefer the tuners that are bought separately and put on, because they do wear out and need to be replaced occasionally. And even more than fine tuners, I prefer playing mandolin.
I’ve never seen a tailpeice with tuners built in. Interesting. As for me, I use added fine tuners on all the strings, for the same reason that rocking bow just stated. Every now and then, when I come to the end of my fine tuner, I have to use the peg, which is annoying, but most of the time I can just use the fine tuner. I have been told that it would improve the tone of the fiddle to remove the fine tuners, so they do have disadvantages.
-Max
Fine tuners and I have no idea what any of this is about but they came on my tailpeice.
The higher quality tailpieces with built-in tuners allow you to replace the tuners when needed, but they also are quite durable. I have a Pusch on my main fiddle, and a Bois D’ Harmonie (double the price of the Pusch) on another fiddle. Both have the fine tuners built in.
The tailpieces themselves are ebony, and the fine tuners are hi-tech carbon fiber. They work well, and if you’re careful when first tuning up (so you don’t end up with the fine tuner screwed all the way up or down), you won’t need to mess with the pegs. Well, hardly ever. Fine tuners are especially helpful with steel core strings (like Helicores), but I like using them even with synth core strings--they good for a quick tweak on the fly in a session or gig setting, and they allow for very small, precise corrections in tuning.
The advantage over the built-in tuners is that they preserve the proper string length, specifically the ratio of the distance from the tailpiece nut to the bridge with the distance from the birdge to the fingerboard nut. This can significantly affect the tone and intonation of your fiddle. I’ve found the improvement to be big enough that I won’t use add-on fine tuners--it’s either built-in, or no fine tuners at all. String length is more important than convenience of tuning. Since the Pusch tailpiece is only $35-$40 USD, it’s painless enough to put a good built-in tuner tailpiece on any fiddle.
BTW, the fine tuners on the Pusch seem to have a larger range than those on the Bois D’ Harmonie, which combined with the price difference is why I prefer the Pusch.
I had a fiddle once that came with a Thomastik metal tailpiece with fine tuners, and when I put a Pusch on it (even re-using the old strings), the fiddle gained in both volume and richer tone. The same has been true, in my experience, of converting fiddles with add-on tuners to Pusch tailpieces. To me, it’s a basic, essential upgrade of any serious fiddle.
Hmm, that’s interesting. I’ll have to look into one of those tail pieces. I had no idea that it would effect the intonation, but I see how it would, due to the change in string length. One thing that bothers me about the non-built in ones is that sometimes they buzz while I’m playing, which is annoying.
-Max
Will, I agree with it being un upgrade. There are also fine integrated tailpieces by Wittner. I use the standard Wittner on both my acoustic and electric.
It does good to discipline yourself to use the pegs regularly, to keep them from getting stiff and slightly oval through lack of movement.
Jim
i don’t actually have and tuners on mine apart from the E string. However, my pegs are just about right, so i can tune them without much effort, and they dont slip out of place either. I find it easier to tune the lower strings with pegs rather than tuners, becuase its a lot less fiddly…but thats just me
Rockingbow, your soundpost shouldn’t fall over if the strings go down, otherwise there’d be a big problem if you needed to replace the tailpiece 🙂 I’d guess that your soundpost either needs readjusting or replacing - probably the latter. Pegs shouldn’t “pop loose” either. Two possibilies:
The string is wound incorrectly onto its peg. To wind the string correctly, start the string at the middle point of the peg and wind towards the inner face of the pegbox so that the final angle of the string from the peg to the nut will try to pull the peg into its hole. This may be difficult with the G and E strings, depending on the detail layout of the pegbox, but do your best. The E-string is almost always adjusted from a micrometer adjuster so I put its peg in fairly tight. There is much less tension on the G-string so I like the G-peg to rotate easily for peg tuning - the mirco adjuster tends to have little effect.
Try not to let the last winding of the string jam up against the wall of the pegbox - there should be a small space to allow the peg to move freely. A string jamming up against the wall of the pegbox is more likely to break at that point.
The second possibility is that the pegs need to be refitted. Unless you’ve got the expertise I’d recommend you take the fiddle to a competent repairer - the same advice aplies to soundpost replacement (NOT a job for the amateur!)
Finally, make sure the strings move smoothly through the grooves in the nut and bridge. It makes tuning lot easier. A lot of players apply a soft-lead pencil to do this.
Trevor
The detail point about the after-length of the string between the bridge and the tailpiece is that the vibration frequency of the after-length should be equal to the second octave harmonic of the next string up. So, for example, the note of the after-length of the D-string should be the same as A1760 (two octaves above the open A440). This all helps the instrument to resonate properly when it is accurately setup and in tune.
To get this fine adjustment the after-length should be exactly 1/6 of the string length between the bridge and the nut. It is indeed a fine adjustment - we’re talking 0.5mm or less, and is only possible if you’re not using adjusters (except on the E ’cos there’s no string above it) or are using adjusters integral with the tailpiece. If you have add-on adjusters you’ll find that the string after-length varies as you tune, so you can’t get that magic 1/6 ratio on the three lower strings.
A correctly positioned bridge shouldn’t be moved, so the only way the 1/6 ratio can be got is by adjusting the position of the tailpiece. There should be some sort of screw adjuster on its underside.
All very detailed stuff, I grant you, but somehow I have my doubts whether most people would notice the difference in a noisy session 🙂 May be a different matter in the recording studio or live on stage, though.
Trevor
Thanks for the detail, Trevor. I notice the difference in my own ear, playing at home, and that’s important enough for me. And anything that helps the fiddle sing more clearly in a session just improves the overall sound of the session, right (unless you feel about fiddles the way you do about piano accordions 🙂?
Wow Trevor, I never thought to wind the string that way. I’ve always done it the other way. I’ve not had any problems with slippy pegs, but I’ll have to try your way next time I replace my strings.
On topic; I do use built in fine tuners. The fiddle came with them, so I don’t know what my instrument would sound like without them. I only have one fine tuner on my viola (on the A) and that string doesn’t sound as rich as the other three.
Given a choice between the two, I think I’d definitely go for built in fine tuners.
Thank you, Treabhar. I will take your advice about winding the strings, but it will likely be forever before I can afford to take it to a professional for repairs. Actually, the sound post doesn’t fall every time, but it has happened enough times that I handle the instrument extreeeeeemely carefully when the strings are all loose. Kate
Thank you very much for all the detail on the after-length, Trevor. And thanks Will for your tailpiece advice. I guess I’ll have to go buy me a Pusch 🙂
Yes, I already have purchased a boxwood Pusch online ^_^;;;;;;;
::Bent on making his Violina look as Baroque as possible::
hi
I have a pusch tailpiece with built in tuners on my fiddle, I like the way that it looks, but the tuner on the e string hit the top on my fiddle and makes a mashy.
But worse than that, when it hits the top it starts to rattle. I paid $50 for the tailpiece and I like it but its not working right, I could use a little help?
First use the built-in tuner to loosen the string as much as possible, the leg of the tuner should now be well clear of the top of the fiddle. If it isn’t, there is something wrong and you should show the fiddle to somebody who understands them. But if the leg of the fine tuner is now clear of the top, you can tighten the tuner slightly, to give you some room for adjustment. You now tune up the e-string using the peg until it is nearly in tune, and make the final adjustment with the fine tuner.
You may need to repeat this procedure from time to time.