Heard this tune, A Pinch of Snuff at my local session and fell in love with it! At the same time I’m trying to learn ornamentation on the fiddle (I’m a classical player) So I found this version on YouTube. Now this is a very novice question but is this what a roll sounds like, or how can I make the beautiful sounds in the first part of the tune? Sorry for the very basic question.
Thanks in advance
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F4iwKH_kKRE
Welcome to thesession, Beatles!
You are correct, those are rolls that you’re hearing. Here’s a video tutorial that talks about how to do that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjESgPOag0k
Let me also point out that, as a banjo player, I have a bit of ‘roll envy’, because that effect is difficult to achieve on a plectrum instrument. There are some ornaments that I do occasionally that mimic that sound, but in general, banjo players usually end up throwing a triplet in place of the roll.
I’m sure some fiddlers will join in the fray here a bit with some more advice and discussion (and telling the banjo player that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about) 😉
And welcome to the wide world of Irish traditional music! I hope you find it as life-enriching as the rest of us do!
Thank you for the prompt reply! I’ll have a look at that when I get a chance. It’s such a beautiful sound alright. I’m fairly hooked!
If you’re a fan of rolls, I’d suggest listening to Kevin Burke.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZQ9DQ0tCXs
Wow thanks for all this info. Dying to get stuck in, will give it a go over the weekend.
This is a bit of advice that is commonly offered on here to novice fiddlers with questions such as yours;- buy yourself the Matt Crantich book (and CD) on Irish Fiddle. It’s an excellent tutorial, and all the various rolls are explained and demonstrated in the tunes as you progress.
rolls are very similar to a baroque mordent. Or at least I thought it was called that until I googled to verify. I mean this ~ the lying S thingy. you’ll get the hang of it quickly if you’re used to those.
The technique isn’t drastically different but the sound and effect you’re going for are. I’ll second the advice to watch that tutorial video. As I remember it was pretty decent. Kevin Burke also has a couple of tutorial videos on YouTube. They’re well well worth watching.
The exact notes in a roll can vary a fair bit, but the basic principle remains the same: play a note; interrupt it with a higher grace note; play the note again; interrupt it with a lower note; play the note.
So, for example, c(d)c(b)c. Or b(d)b(a)b.
That’s the so-called ‘long roll’. It usually covers three quavers.
On open strings it’s obviously very tricky to drop down below the main note, so typically people kind of ‘cheat’ by doing open string rolls. Basically they just play two higher grace notes. Like a(c)a(b)a.
If people want to ornament a crotchet, especially in reels, they use a ‘short roll’. (Remember the ‘long roll’ covers three quavers or a crotchet and a quaver.) that’s basically the same thing without the first note.
So maybe (d)c(b)c.
It might be worth adding a note of caution that in a sense ornamentation is the *least* important thing about traditional music. Playing the right notes in the right order isn’t sufficient.
It’s nice to be able to drop in an ornament somewhere in a tune though, even if you can only do the one easiest ornament in the one easiest place - because the ornamentation is a big part of what makes Irish music sound Irish and Scottish music Scottish and so on. It makes it feel right.
“Ornaments” in Irish music are in fact rhythmic articulations and as such are essential getting the right feel. Llig used to insist on this point, and he was absolutely right.
@5stringfool Some times I miss Llig!
Some interesting points there. Thanks for the links also, I’ve watched the lesson a few times, am itching to try it out (2 small kids, just haven’t managed to take out the fiddle in the past few days!). I’d never heard of Kevin Burke to my shame. I like his style and I like how he references Michael Coleman, as someone who finds the soul of the instrument.
I’m interested, Calum, in your comment that playing the right notes in the right order isn’t sufficient. If it’s not the notes, and not the ornamentation, then what is the most important thing? I’m guessing rhythm, is that what you mean?
Anyway thanks for all the input, I’ll keep you informed when I finally get to try all this out!
I can’t speak for Calum, but for me, yes, rhythm is paramount. Firstly in the actual rhythm of the tune type which generally emphasises the one. Then in the rhythm of the phrase which can be slightly different and needs to be sort of reconciled with the main tune type rhythm.
That’s where the bowing comes in. Partly to play that strong pulse but ideally not in an overemphasised way. And partly to suit the vagaries of the particular phrase you’re playing.
Again there’s a good Kevin Burke video where he explains one of the typical patterns that crop up in reels. Could be interesting for you.
But there are also simpler tendencies worth looking at like slurring into emphasised beats. Or playing groups of notes like open a, g, open a, on one bow.
Above all don’t fall into the trap of bowing reels in slurred pairs or groups of four. Or bowing jigs in slurred groups of three.
Another little point on playing rolls - a 1st finger roll is often fingered 1-3-1-0-1 , but you can get a snappier sound if you use your 2nd finger, 1-2-1-0-1.
If you do this, the sound is a little different. You’re playing a different note, plus your 2nd finger is the strongest one.
So a first finger roll in the key of Gmaj could be either 1-3-1-0-1 [b-d-b-a-b] , or 1-2-1-0-1 [b-c-b-a-b]
You could try both and see which one you prefer.
Beatles, here is a link to a “tune of the week” for “Pinch of Snuff” which Fiddle4U (Jim McAuley) posted a few years back. http://tradconnect.com/group/irish-fiddle-tips-irish-traditional-music/forum/topics/5-tune-s-of-the-week-the-pinch-of-snuff-reel
I would have posted it earlier but I was busy looking for an archived version of Jim’s playing the tune in one of the videos which has since disappeared ( http://tradconnect.com/video/pinch-of-snuff-at-larne-harbour ). Regardless though I thought you might like to see the rest of the discussion.
Re: what Calum said:
The ornamentation/rolls shouldn’t take over the tune. In my mind, the best ornamentation isn’t even noticed by a non-fiddler - it just enhances the overall feel and flow of the tune. If a casual listener heard this set, he/she might not even notice the ornamentation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TABSf0AcdVQ
PS - what you’re looking for is something called “lift,” although it goes by many other names as well.
“Above all don’t fall into the trap of bowing reels in slurred pairs or groups of four. Or bowing jigs in slurred groups of three.”
Whoops!
Imagine the exercise of playing each half of the tune with a single slow continuous bow-stroke. How would you articulate the rhythm with your left hand only?
Different players do this differently, but I think it’s best to think of the ‘grace notes’/cuts as articulations rather than notes. As the duration of a sound becomes shorter it looses it’s sense of pitch and duration, and is perceived as a ‘click’ rather than a note in the usual sense. Along that line a roll can be considered a 3 note ornament where the first is articulated using a ‘cut’ and the second with a ‘strike’ - to use flute/whistle terminology. The effect is the same on the fiddle but the finger actions used are effectively opposite of a wind instrument.
Note (cut) Note (strike) Note.
A roll is not the same as a classical turn, at least given my current (limited) understanding of classical music. Given my understanding a turn is 4 or 5 notes of equal duration. When cuts/strikes are considered articulations there duration can be assumed to be constant regardless of tempo. Thus at slow tempo the duration of the 3 notes of a roll are considerably longer than the finger articulations separating them. As the tempo goes up these notes get shorter and the sound may begin to approach that of a turn.
As the pitch of a cut/strike is not easily perceived it does not have to be a clean tone, it’s more an interruption of the sound.
Depending on the player rolls and bowed triplets can sound somewhat similar.
Thanks for all the detailed replies and tips. I’m working on the rolls and they’re sounding good (ahem!) Now I’m trying to fit them into tunes… It’s all a work in progress and I suppose I’ve years to master it!
I’m now really self conscious about my smooth classical bowing, I’m convinced everyone at the session is whispering behind their hands about my “slurred pairs”!!!!
Anyway. I’ll keep on listening and keep on practising. I’m pretty happy with my progress so won’t get discouraged for now!
