Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Hey everyone, I’ve just made a change to the site that’s quite small in some ways, but I think will be very much appreciated by the people who care. :-)

So, the way things have worked up ‘till now with the track listings of recordings is that they link to tunes with the same name (or alias). Most of the time—80% to 90%— that works just fine, but of course there are occasions where the link is wrong. Recordings with tunes entitled "Paddy Fahey’s", for example, are almost certainly going to the link to the wrong tune entry.

Well now you can edit those links.

If you go to any recording in the recordings section of the site, you’ll see the track listing as usual but now there’s a little "edit" link next to each tune name (I’m not entirely pleased about how this clutters up the page, but I’m struggling to come up with a cleaner way of showing the links). Clicking that link takes you to a page where you can edit the title of the tune, but more important, you can edit the ID of the tune it links to.

This means you’ll have to enter the ID from the tune’s address, which is a bit of a pain, but I’ve tried to ease the process somewhat by showing some suggestions (based on a search for that tune).

Here’s an example of a recording with lots of "Paddy Fahey’s" tunes which could probably do with updating:
https://thesession.org/recordings/252

The recordings section is filled with comments saying "Such and such a track is linking to the wrong tune…" and now all of those false positives can be fixed. But I need your help. If you know of any recordings that are linking to the wrong tune entries, please, please, please go ahead and update the links. I’d really appreciate it.

I know this addition is a loooong time coming; sorry I didn’t get around to it sooner.

Hope you like this new feature! Let me know if you come across any bugs when you’re doing your editing.

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Very nice Jeremy!

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Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Thanks a lot! Now we won’t have discussions like "Tune names are useless because all the Paddy Fahy’s lead to the same one anyway" ;)

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Great news Jeremy! Thanks for everything you do. I must say, though, that I thought it would be simpler just to have the title field be able to tolerate both a straight title and HTML addresses, but this is definitely a fantastic start.

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

nice! Used it already!

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Thanks - that will save a lot of confusion. I’ll see what contribution I can make to tidying things up.

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Hello, I just woke up and haven’t had my coffee yet. But once I do if this thread is still here and not just something I dreamt then it’s brilliant.

Cheers, Jeremy, grand.

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Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Not a dream Ben. Just edited "Paddy in the Smoke" and some of "The Star of Munster Trio". It works really well.

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Nice feature, I updated https://thesession.org/recordings/252, except for one Paddy Fahey tune, however now I forget which one and I’m not sure I did all of them, if it’s easy to do, it could be useful to highlight the tunes that were changed from their default mapping, that way you know by looking at an album if it’s got a chance of hitting the right tune, of the tunes that need changing eg someone hasn’t already changed them before you got there eg all the Paddy Fahy or Fahey, Sean Ryan tunes etc…

I’m not sure either how the mapping worked as all the original Paddy Fahey’s links didn’t all map to the same tune, I thought they would all have mapped to the same tune.

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Someone might have edited the recording after it was originally uploaded, that’s probably why the original tunes didn’t all map to the same tune.

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

> I’m struggling to come up with a cleaner way of showing the links

Suggestion: when you go into edit album mode, just let people add tune numbers to the titles, something like this:

The Trip To Galway[4269]/Crabs In The Skillet[1082]/The Fly In The Porter[4225]

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Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

I tried at one point to resolve all of the various Paddy Fahey’s on thesession with the Maria Holohan list (listed in https://thesession.org/links) and couldn’t achieve much correlation. Too many versions and too much mixing within threads. Paddy Fahey neads an entire crew to untangle his tunes.

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Is there a way to fix incomplete recordings where a track hasn’t been added? One that I’m thinking of is the first Danú album, where one track is missing (however, Kenny has added it in the comments).

https://thesession.org/recordings/612

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Jeremy, I am impressed. I am finding some bugs though overall it’s an improvement & I think it will obviously take time to sort. I’ll let you know about the bugs after I’ve checked everything out more thoroughly.

I do have one question now if anyone would like to brainstorm.(?)

I just edited https://thesession.org/recordings/1284 ~ "Johnny O’Leary of Sliabh Luachra" track 5, 2nd tune: ‘The Cobbler’. But I did not edit Julia & Billy Clifford’s recording of a polka they also call "The Cobbler" track 19, 1st tune on https://thesession.org/recordings/1291 The Clifford’s* ‘Cobbler’ is in the 4th setting of the link I used for Johnny O’Leary’s ‘Cobbler’ except it’s different from the first three settings.

My dilemma is mainly due to the fact Julia and Billy Clifford have two different polkas** on their recording and each or both of them could be linked to thesession.org’s listing for "The Cobbler’s" (polka), which has settings for 2 different polkas. (?)

* https://thesession.org/tunes/1841#comment788879
" O’Keefe’s, X:4

From Julia and Billy Clifford’s "Ceol As Sliabh Luachra," called "The Cobbler." "

** track 16 & 19. first tune on both tracks

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Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

AB, if you’re saying the fourth setting is a completely different tune, it looks like you need to add a new tune called "The Cobbler" with only the fourth setting and then link to that, it’s not really a problem with the new functionality for the recordings section, more a general problem with the tune section.

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Thanks, Theirlandais, yes but that’s only one part of the dilemma. For me posting a new tune with the same name would resolve a single issue yet potentially create a few others. I’m afraid I’ll decline. First, because I don’t know the Clifford’s setting well enough to prepare a transcription which would serve it justice. Second, because the site already has settings for their version listed, both under the title they used and other titles. Lastly, because I don’t want to create another dilemma if I don’t need to.
If I can do something useful and which makes things more clear, that’s what I want to do.
Easier said than done.

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Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Great stuff Jeremy.

Observations: it is possible to link a tune on a recording to a particular tune, where the name given on the recording is not among the names attached to that tune. Example: I just linked a tune listed as "Casey’s" on Danny Meehan’s album Navvy on the Shore to the correct tune, which is https://thesession.org/tunes/934

So when a user clicks the link on the recording, they might be puzzled to find themselves looking at John McKenna’s polka, not something called Casey’s. They might assume that there the link is erroneous (which it isn’t). But I don’t think it’s a good idea to add the name "Casey’s" to that polka. Another example, from the same recording, is "Herlihy’s Rant" which I just linked to the jig Mac’s Fancy.

What do you think about this situation?

Could we edit the titles given to a tune on a recording like this: Casey’s [John McKenna’s polka]?

Could links be "confirmed" so that users know when a link has been created intentionally and not via a random name match done by the system?

What about the possibility of linking a tune to a particular setting? If for example, I were to add a transcription of Danny Meehan’s playing of that tune on the recording, which is more elaborate than the settings currently posted, would it be better if the user, on clicking "Casey’s" were taken directly to that setting?

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Jeremy, This is really a great move forward! Thanks!
Bill

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Excellent Jeremy. Thanks.

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Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

I hope there’s a backup at just prior to implementation just in case something goes horribly awry. Several years as a unix system administrator urges me to mention that precaution.

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Another thing to ponder, Jeremy, related to my comments above. When you add a link from a tune listed on a recording to the correct tune in the tunes section, and the name on the recording is not among the titles already listed for the tune, the album is automatically added to the listed recordings of that tune. But when a user follows the link from the tune to the list of recordings, to the album concerned … the title of the tune he or she has been looking at is not there on the album!

Noel Hill’s The Irish Concertina lists a tune called "Farewell to Ireland". I linked this last night to the correct tune, whose primary title is "The Flying Column". (https://thesession.org/tunes/5462). As of this morning, "Farewell to Ireland" is not among the listed titles for that tune. The page now tells us that "there are 13 recordings of a tune by this name". When you follow this link, and then click on "The Irish Concertina", there is no sign of a tune called "The Flying Column" or any of the alternative titles currently shown.

Obviously if all the links between album tracks and tunes were correct, you could alter the wording "by this name" - which is only there to warn users that the recorded tracks might not actually be of this particular tune. In the case of Noel Hill’s "Farewell to Ireland" and "The Flying Column", it is incorrect at the moment to say that one of the links is to "a tune by this name".

Possible solution: automatically include the names from the recorded tracks when a link is made manually, e.g. add "Farewell to Ireland" to the titles for the tune "Flying Column". Which might be the best course, although it will generate a lot of unhelpful names e.g. "Casey’s" for "John McKenna’s polka", see above.

Your "by this name" will then be correct, although perhaps it should say, "by one of the names of this tune shown above"… :)

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

I think it’s fair to add a name to the tune page that someone called the tune on a recording (or publication), even if we know it was a mistake - a comment pointing out the error or just explaining the addition would be enough to correct it.

On the other hand, I agree that perpetuating known mistakes isn’t great…

All that said, I’m very happy about this addition!

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Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Steve - I’ll add that I don’t know if I like your idea of adding the tune page "main name" in brackets as a blanket or standard implementation (and I don’t think you specifically suggested that either). For an example, we recorded the Rambler’s Rest specifically with that name because it was the name used in O’Neill’s. Upstairs in a Tent is the "main name: on the tune page, but I don’t think it should be associated with our recording…

Important Question:
Is it possible to link to a specific setting, rather than just the tune page?

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Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Following up on the Rambler’s Rest, I’d like to link to:
https://thesession.org/tunes/136#setting12753
Which I found by looking at the source code.

So, thank you for adding this Jeremy, now can you make two more changes:
1. Make it possible to get the link to the specific setting more easily from the tune page
2. Make it possible to use that link when editing the tracks on a recording

Thanks!!

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Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Great solution, Jeremy.

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Nice, Jeremy!

If you want to reduce the clutter, why don’t you just hide the edit link, but make it appear on mouseover of the link? (and then disappear upon mouseover of another link, or mouseout of the edit link itself)? Just a thought. Then they’re readily available, but don’t clutter the page, because there is only ever one showing at most…

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Reverend wrote:
"If you want to reduce the clutter, why don’t you just hide the edit link, but make it appear on mouseover of the link?"

I thought about this, but there are a few problems. First is that many devices don’t have a hover state (phones, tablets, etc.) and it’s difficult to detect (or infer) the presence or absence of that ability. Secondly, it makes the functionality a lot less discoverable: most people don’t hover over something until they’ve already decided to take an action. I realise I’m looking to have my cake and eat it too: I’d like the functionality to be clear and discoverable, but I don’t want it to clutter up the interface too much. I suspect those two things can’t be reconciled, so for now I’ll stick with keeping the discoverability clear.

Nico wrote:
"Make it possible to get the link to the specific setting more easily from the tune page"

Speaking of discoverability …you can actually get the link for any tune setting by clicking on the "#" symbol at the start of the line "Added by so-and-so on such-and-such a date." (just as you can get the link to any comment by clicking on the "#" symbol under it), but I agree that this isn’t very discoverable. It’s awfully subtle.

"Make it possible to use that link when editing the tracks on a recording"

Well the purpose of the tunes section is not to be a repository of specific recorded versions of tunes, but rather all the variations that people play, whether that’s on recordings or in sessions. Most of the settings on recordings wouldn’t have a specific setting in the tunes section—so linking to *all* the settings makes sense. There are instances where there’s a specific setting in the tunes section that matches up to a particular setting on a recording, but that’s the exception rather than the rule. In that situation, I think it’s better to make the connection clear with a comment: either a comment on the tune saying which setting is on which album, or a comment on the album linking to the specific setting, or both.

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Thanks Jeremy! I understand your point, and the comment is a good workaround. I think it would be nice to have the option of either linking to the tunepage or to a specific setting, but I will follow your suggestion!

Just to explain my wish, my thought process is that there’s a spectrum between:
1. Same tune, small differences (few notes, ornaments, key change, order of parts)
2. Same tune, big differences (different number of parts, many bar differences, endings, modes, rhythm/type)
3. Similar tune, but different enough
4. Different tune
And when tunes fall in category 2 (which is broad), sometimes the settings get lumped into an existing tunepage, and sometimes they don’t. It’s a matter of opinion, and not everyone agrees with the decision. Rather than argue with the decision, the direct link let’s people specify where they think the setting is different enough that the distinction is important. All that to say, that I know I’m asking you to put in more effort now, but I might be saving you some discussion time later :)

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Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Also, Jeremy, I’d like to know what you think about a few points I raised:

1. When a manual link is created, should the name given to a tune on a recording automatically be added to the list of titles on the tune page? If not, should the person creating the manual link make a judgment call as to whether it is necessary, and if so, add the title manually to the list?

2. Is it possible to show where a link from a tune on a recording to a tune page has been created manually - which might make others look carefully before changing such a link? To avoid clutter, perhaps this could be done in the Edit page. You could even show who had made the link - which might or might not add credibility!

3. Where an unusual name is given to a tune on a recording, especially one that is highly unlikely to be used elsewhere, is it a good idea to add the common name of the tune to which it is linked, say between square brackets? (Actually you could do this automatically whenever a link was created manually, adding the primary name on the tune page.)

Thanks!

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Yeah, Jeremy, point taken about the mobile usability. I was kind of thinking that people wouldn’t necessarily be doing that kind of editing on a mobile device, but I guess people do everything on them these days ;-)

Another thought might be an in-obtrusive little pencil icon (maybe to the left of the name instead of the right to keep the look cleaner). The problem with that is that small buttons can be tough on mobile as well. But just another thought…

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Stiamh asked:
"When a manual link is created, should the name given to a tune on a recording automatically be added to the list of titles on the tune page? If not, should the person creating the manual link make a judgment call as to whether it is necessary, and if so, add the title manually to the list? "

That’s up to the person. Sometimes a tune is recorded with an "incorrect" title. Whether that mistake should then be propagated in the aliases of the actual tune …that’s a good question. I think it needs to be tackled on a case-by-case basis so I don’t think the automatic creation of an alias is always the right move.

"Is it possible to show where a link from a tune on a recording to a tune page has been created manually - which might make others look carefully before changing such a link?"

But 90% of the time the match (as done by name) is absolutely fine. If someone thinks a track is linking to the wrong tune, they’re free to change that regardless of whether the original link was done by someone else or by matching names.

"Where an unusual name is given to a tune on a recording, especially one that is highly unlikely to be used elsewhere, is it a good idea to add the common name of the tune to which it is linked, say between square brackets?"

Definitely don’t add aliases in square brackets! That would get very ugly very quickly. Clicking through to the linked tune will show other titles. I think most people understand that there isn’t always a single name for a tune—the tunes section is the place to document the aliases; not the recordings section, I think.

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

OK, Jeremy, thanks, will work with that.

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

I think alternative titles are OK (even "incorrect" ones). If people want to look up a certain recording, it makes more sense to base the track list on the actual album. The links will lead to the right tunes anyway.

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Well done, Jeremy, great improvement to a great site.

Regards
David

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

Jeremy, another option for the edit functionality would be simply to add it to the "Edit Recording" page instead of having all the "Edit" links on the main page. If there’s some way of detecting the number of tunes in a track (should be easy as they’re all separated by slashes) then you could either put the "Edit" links after every tune, or you could put them all after the track. In that case you could use a template like "Edit Link for [tunename]".

Re: Editing links between recordings and tunes (finally!)

How do you add multiple tune names to tracks which have single overall name now? In the old system I think I’m right in saying you just put in the list of names seperated by slashes. Could that not apply to the new system, just put in the list (to replace the single name) and automatically parse the input for slashes creating multiple tune entries. You could then go back to them seperately to correct any linking problems.