How to make this sound on my fiddle (part 2)

I posted a while ago asking a very newbie question about how to make a lovely sound (roll!) on my fiddle. I got great advice thank you all, so I’m asking again about another sound. This time it’s in the Chieftains version of ‘ Nine points of roguery’.
The first ‘D’ is a straightforward note but in that phrase the second time round it’s a sort of double note, maybe even a triplet? Is that what it is, a really fast triplet? And if so, how do I do that, what bowing do I use etc?
Just hoped I might get a few pointers here. I’ve learned the tune but those details really bring it to life.
Thanks

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qvWx_KLDfuE

play video

Sounds like a fast triplet.

It’s a bowed triplet (or treble*) or scratch triplet - playing the note three times in rapid succession with separate, very short, bow strokes. I am not much of a technician on the fiddle, so I will leave it to others to give more detailed advice on how to execute bowed triplets.

*Some prefer the term ‘treble’ for this and similar ornaments, since the three notes are not of equal length and therefore it is not a *true* triplet according to the classical definition. In Scottish fiddling, in is known as a ‘birl’.

Being a classical violinist I assume you‘ll be willing to put in the approximately 10‘000 repetitions to get these right?

Me too.
Been at it for about a year and a half and can get about one in 5? to ‚crack‘ - on a down bow.

There’s a couple youtube videos.

Do you guys (meaning you fiddle players) ever do that thing where you repeat a note by bouncing the bow multiple times in the same direction? That’s my best description.

Re: the treble/triplet/birl - or what we call a ‘cut’ in Cape Breton. It’s one of those things that some people get almost right away - and others don’t. A couple of approaches: 1) start slow, and gradually speed up; 2) start fast with a jerking movement like you’re flicking something disgusting off a stick. There are different ways of doing it. Ideally, I suppose, you want the movement to be mostly in the fingers, with a bit of wrist. To start out, you might try a ‘spasmodic’ stiffening/relaxing of the whole forearm, elbow down.

Others may feel that I’ve got it all wrong, and they may be right. Works for me, though.

Before moving the bow, press it into the string, then slowly ramp up the downbow pull until the bow suddenly slips. As soon as it slips, change direction. Once you’ve got this working, add a third change of direction.

For advanced points, also practice it starting with an upbow.

Arthur Figgis,

I think you mean ricochet. I don’t think that’s what one is supposed to do, I was shown alternate bowstrokes.




p.s. if this turns into a repeat post apologies, my first attempt appears to have been lost.

Bowed triplets can be fast and “scratchy” or they can be more controlled-sounding, depending on the player and the tune. I once got a lesson from Liz Carroll and she said that no matter how you do them, you (the player, not the audience necessarily) should always be able to hear the three notes.

Here’s a nice example, from a fine little series on Sligo fiddle. The tune starts at about 9:10; the bowed trips are down/up/down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyPJa68NvG4

play video

I’ve always felt that trebles were by far the hardest ornament to master on fiddle. Maybe it’s because I grew up playing mostly classical, and you never see trebles in classical playing (I think all the other ornaments, like cuts and rolls, are ones that you can find in the classical repertoire). My goal is to make them sound like Ashley MacIsaac does, and I’m a long way from that goal.

Anyway, here’s a question: It seems like trebles are easier to do when you start on a downbow (DUD). So should I 1) plan my bowing strategically so that the trebles always fall on a downbow (even though there are certain tunes where this is hard or impossible to do), or 2) practice doing them on the upbow until I get better at it?

To answer your question, some fiddlers can play them with both DUD and UDU, but I find that DUD is easier for me, so that’s how I play them. I also find that “lining up” the bow for a DUD trip is very easy to do - again, once you’ve mastered the triplet itself. It comes naturally. If I’m thinking “triplet here” the bow adjusts automatically - I don’t have to tell it what to do.

Alex, I would keep practicing until you can do it either way, it it were me. Actually it is me, and I’m not there yet, but hopefully will be soon.

Arthur, I do not ever bounce my bow.

The vast majority of [Irish] fiddlers only do DUD for the bowed treble. Learn it both ways if you like, but IMO it would be better to focus on doing it one way correctly. A fiddler doesn’t need to do it both ways, he/she just need to do it one way well.

specifically @ Alex: I know little of Ashley M, but I submit you would be better off sounding like you instead of somebody else.
“ So should I 1) plan my bowing strategically so that the trebles always fall on a downbow (even though there are certain tunes where this is hard or impossible to do)”
Yes, and it’s not “hard or impossible” on very many tunes. You can always just play it without the bowed treble. Substituting an open string roll or a DED-type figure or a double-stop or just a long note is fine in many cases. Bottom line: get good at string crossings so that landing up on the bow before a treble becomes automatic.

Thank you all so much again for taking the time to reply. That’s all very helpful. I’ll give it a go. And again. And again, no doubt. Yes alpinerabbit I’m a great believer in multiplying by 10,000!

Interestingly, the fiddle player only seems to play these trebles in the first round of the tune, when he’s clearly heard. He seems to just play a straight D every time once all the other instruments join.
I think this is a beautiful tune and has a great/interesting name!

It’s all in the wrist. To get your triplets really fast your arm keeps moving continuously in the same direction, as though you are playing one continuous note, but your wrist and fingers briefly throws the bow the other way to make the middle note.

There is another way of achieving a very similar effect, something the Sheland fiddlers call a shiver, where you suddenly tense up your bicep, which causes the whole arm to shake.

Yes, and let me also add my thanks for the replies on this thread-- always interesting to hear how other people approach the problem. @Aaron, I agree with your point about sounding like yourself-- it’s just that I think different fiddlers play trebles with a different sound, so I was trying to be specific about what kind of sound I wanted to produce. (Not a big fan of the Tommy Peoples approach where it sounds like a phonograph needle skipping, even though I admire the guy in other respects).

I am not a fiddler. But, is this the same sound that led to the notorious “Bang your Frog on the Sofa” reel?
perhaps a quick glance at the comments would help.

“Interestingly, the fiddle player only seems to play these trebles in the first round of the tune, when he’s clearly heard. He seems to just play a straight D every time once all the other instruments join.”

This happens often, when a single instrument is starting a tune “solo,” before other joins in. Before the band gets in the single does some personalizing via ornaments, then strips down to make room for the others.

“is this the same sound that led to the notorious ”Bang your Frog on the Sofa“ reel?”

Yes