When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

This happened to me once with Si Beag Si Mor, I think. On that occasion I appealed and they saw I was right. In this case they’re claiming to own the copyright to this video from when we were kids (lol): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTViQRlC8mA


Specifically, they’re saying it’s a music composition called "Oh! The Breeches Full Of Stitches" which was automatically matched to the 0:09 - 1:11 segment of our video. Here’s what they’re saying:

CONTENT:
Oh! The Breeches Full Of Stitches
Music composition
0:09 - 1:11

CLAIMANT:
ECAD_CS
BMG Rights Management
ARESA

POLICY
Monetized by copyright owner

The only thing I can think of is I think we learned this set of tunes from The Chieftains (The Best Of album), so maybe they might be claiming their setting?? But they’re saying "Music composition", not setting…

They’re feeling compassionate so they’re saying they’ll share the profits from the ads with me. But it’s NOT about the money. This video has given me the amazing amount of €0.14 this year. It’s not about that. I just hate the fact they’re doing this to traditional music. This, and the fact that they may start doing this to all of my videos, is what makes me think of filing a dispute. If they see I’m right, they take off their claim. If however they think I’m wrong, the whole TinWhistler channel (12 years of videos) could be taken down. What would you do?

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

It’s not the Breeches (or Britches) Full of Stitches, which is a polka. It’s The Old Favourite a.k.a. The Kilfenora.
They’ve not even got the right type of tune, let alone the right tune.

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

The tune you play is a jig called The Old Favourite, sometimes played as a slide, and has a few other titles. It can be found here:https://thesession.org/tunes/56 As far as I’m aware I’ve never heard of anyone claiming authorship of the tune. The only "Britches Full Of Stitches" I’ve ever come across is a polka, and neither tune is under copyright.
Sídh Beag Sídh Mór is generally attributed to O’Carolan(1670-1738) and would have been out of copyright about 200 years ago! I’m no lawyer so I’m not certain when copyright laws came into effect. Welcome to "the music industry"!

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

Wondering if that €0.14 was before or after taxes? :)

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

Maybe that Chieftains set included the polka so they called the whole set that but I don’t remember. It’s true it’s pathetic these people don’t even know what a tune is. This is what makes me so mad about this.

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

Actually those cents are transferred to my bank account from Ireland. ^^ But I’ll keep the tax stuff a secret…

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

You can claim copyright to Shakespeare’s plays if you like. It’s you that has to take legal action to defend your "copyright" and if it can be shown the work existed before your claim, you’ve lost.

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

These companies have done the same to me. I just appeal it, and it usually ends up de-monetized. Doesn’t always work…YouTube is pretty friendly towards people claiming copyright. If you appeal it, the first time it ONLY goes to the people making the claim to decide.

If you push it further, I think you can get your channel deleted.

Interestingly, on a slightly different note, some music publishing companies have completely nixed any covers whatsoever. (Hard to find Eagles covers on YouTube now, for instance)

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

I think I’ll let them win this time. Whatever.

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

This has come up frequently for me with tunes in the public domain. I’ve always clicked the button to say the claim is erroneous and if given the opportunity say that the tune is in the public domain and I haven’t had more trouble. I know sometimes the company refuses to drop the claim, though. I know others who have just removed their video rather than have the phoney claim monetize the video. Good luck!

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

Same here; when I’ve gotten a content ID match notice, I contest, stating that a tune is in the public domain and I’m not basing my version on a particular recorded arrangement. The flag is lifted pretty soon after I contest. If a tune has a modern composer, I wouldn’t contest — but they haven’t yet targeted my videos of 20th-21st century compositions.

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

Well, I thought it was possible to copyright arrangements of even ancient "public domain" tunes, and then you might run into trouble by not seeking permission or crediting the arranger, but I guess if you make your own arrangement of a centuries old tune you could be OK. Obviously, if there is a living composer, whose work you want to use, it is only right to ask for permission to use said tune and any arrangement you might wish to make of it.

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

I just think YouTube is afraid of getting sued, so they play it safe on everything. Probably the Eagles record company and similar have particularly nasty lawyers. I’ve always understood covers to be perfectly fine as long as royalties are paid properly (through the licensing agencies).

Even ridiculous lawsuits cost millions of dollars. Remember the lady who sued McDonald’s when she spilled hot coffee on herself? McDonalds won the lawsuit, but it cost them $30 mil in legal costs, IIRC. As annoying as it is, I don’t really blame YouTube for protecting itself. Remember, it isnt a right to post a video there. Don’t hate the player, hate the game, I guess.

Posted by .

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

I once got a "Cease and desist" message from Youtube because of including a bit of "I’ll tell me ma" in the soundtrack of a video I had put together. I was doing a Creative Imaging degree course at the time, 10 years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18yYKpONu2A&t=2s

The video is nothing special, it’s mostly a try-out of pan and zoom effects and really just banged together. The offending piece of music starts at about 2.50. I replied to the Youtube message, telling them that "I’ll tell me ma" is played in every pub in Ireland, the band in question doesn’t, couldn’t, have any rights to it, and that it’s just about the worst version of the tune I’ve ever heard. The only reason I didn’t record myself playing this tune was down to lack of time, otherwise I’d have had a better rendition in place. Ten years later it’s still there.
Alex.

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

I’ve had these notifications a couple of times, though not for the past two years or so. Same as the people above, I always contested the claim, explained that the tunes are public domain and played by me (if you include a recording from someone else it’s different because composition and rendition are two separate "works" and can be copyrighted independently from each other) and the claims have always disappeared a few days later.
And indeed, probably YouTube is just playing it safe, whereas these "music rights companies" are basically backstabbing semi-criminal vultures who are a stain upon the world… frustrated, me? Nah.

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

"What would you do?"

Tell them to p*ss off :)

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

The thing to remember is that these claims aren’t generated by people, they are generated by computers using pattern recognition software, and sometimes (or quite a lot more than sometimes) the computer gets it wrong. When you dispute the claim a human gets involved and it all goes away.

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

« When you dispute the claim a human gets involved and it all goes away. »

I don’t know whether humans do get involved, at least on the YT side, and it doesn’t always all go away. I had a copyright claim against Lord Inchiquin, to which I responded with the facts of the case. The claim was withdrawn. I had another against Return from Fingal to which I responded with clear evidence of the tune’s public-domain status. The claim was not withdrawn and I was warned that persisting could lead to my account being deleted.

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

> I thought it was possible to copyright arrangements of even ancient "public domain" tunes

It is, although it’s a bit of a legal fiction. In order for a court to actually accept an arrangement as worthy of protection there has to be a substantial element of transformation/originality. What we do in the trad world rarely comes close.

> Remember the lady who sued McDonald’s when she spilled hot coffee on herself?

She suffered third degree burns, required skin grafts, and was disabled for years. She initially asked for $20k to cover medical costs; it was the jury that decided to award large punitive damages.

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Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

SURPRISE! I just got this email:


Dear TinWhistler,

Your video "Tabhair Dom Do Lámh (Give Me Your Hand) - Low whistle & guitar", may have content that is owned or licensed by ECAD_CS, but it’s still available on YouTube! In some cases, ads may appear next to it.

You are still making money from this video, click here to change your monetization settings.

This claim is not penalizing your account status. Visit your Copyright Notice page for more details on the policy applied to your video.

- The YouTube Team




From Wikipedia: Give Me Your Hand" (Tabhair dom do Lámh in Irish) is a tune from the early 17th century by Ruaidri Dáll Ó Catháin (c.1570-c.1650), perhaps in honour of a lady.[citation needed] It is one of the most widely recorded pieces of Irish traditional music.

They declared war. I’m not going to let this pass.

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

Good luck with this. Please be sure to ask them who "ECAD_CS" are, and how they think they can "own" a tune which is over 300 years old.

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Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

I suspect what’s happening is that someone previously has recorded a piece of music and has copyrighted their performance and arrangement, but not the composition. This is standard practice for commercial
recordings.However at some point in the process, almost certainly programme sourced, a tune title comes up and bingo! a breach of copyright is generated, confusing the copyrighted ARRANGEMENT with COMPOSITION COPYRIGHT of a song title. I’d be contacting my local Performing Rights organisation((e.g in Australia this is APRA/AMCOSS) and discussing with them the issue. I know some years ago when I published a guitar book that the bluegrass tune "Texas Gales", when doing a search for copyright ownership, showed that the tune was composed by Doc Watson when in fact it was composed by Molly O’Day and on one of Watson’s LPs he specifically said he learnt it from a recording of a fiddler called Charlie Bowman. I’m pretty sure Doc himself had no inkling of this attributed composer error. I’d certainly be lodging some form of a complaint about their behaviour.

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

It’s worth repeating that YouTube’s ‘Content ID’ system is at least semi-automatic and certainly not infallible. Unfortunately YouTube are very secretive about how it actually works, but my understanding is they send out algorithmic ‘spiders’ to crawl through all the uploads and see what matches their data.

In the case of an arrangement of a traditional song, which in the UK absolutely can be copyrighted (but to be discussed properly should probably be in a separate thread) almost certainly there will be multiple examples. So the question is then, how does YouTube decide, however incorrectly, which version to match it to?

Again YouTube’s secrecy doesn’t help us, but I suspect it’ll be a combination of how closely your version matches one of the copyrighted arrangements (time length, dynamics, sonic similarity etc.), with how much YouTube ‘trust’ the claimant. Over time, bad or dis-proven claims stack up against copyright claimants just as much against the uploaders or, in YouTube’s words, the "users".

It’s not unknown for record companies and music publishers to get a bad press, and in this case I’d say it’s to YouTube’s advantage that impression continues. But ask yourself, is it really the ‘music publishing company’ that’s at fault here, or is it, as has already been noted, the system? In this case the system of UGC (User Generated Content) which lies at the heart of YouTube’s business model, and which is rooted in the fiction that users only upload what they own.

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

If somebody in the UK copyrights a trad tune, does the copyright apply in the United States according to Youtube’s policies?

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

In the USA it’s simple

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain_music

The way that modern music publishers in the UK claim "copyright control" over tunes that are hundreds of years old, and have no known composer, is puzzling. It don’t fly here.

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

They’re at it again. Ruaidhrí Dall Ó Catháin wouldn’t like this.

Dear TinWhistler,

Your video "My new Tin Whistle, a Generation in Bb", may have content that is owned or licensed by ECAD_CS, but it’s still available on YouTube! In some cases, ads may appear next to it.

You are still making money from this video, click here to change your monetization settings.

This claim is not penalizing your account status. Visit your Copyright Notice page for more details on the policy applied to your video.

- The YouTube Team




CONTENT:
GIVE ME YOUR HAND
Music composition
0:05 - 1:28 play match

CLAIMANT:
ECAD_CS

POLICY:
Monetized by copyright owner

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

This just isn’t right what Youtube is doing. Even the idiots at Youtube must clearly see that "Give Me Your Hand" is 400 years old!

Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

"ECAD_CS" - would appear to be the copyright collection organisation in Brazil. I found this on "Wikipedia" :

Escritório Central de Arrecadação e Distribuição
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
The Escritório Central de Arrecadação e Distribuição (also known as ECAD; can be translated as Central Office for Collection and Distribution) is the national copyright collection agency in Brazil. It is made up of six partner organisations: BRAMUS, AMAR, SBACEM, SICAM, SOCINPRO and UBC, as well as associate member organisations ABRAC, ANACIM, ASSIM and SADEMBR.[1][2]

ECAD also produce a Radio Ranking of music based on radio airplay.[3]

Controversies
In 2012, fifteen officials were indicted after an investigation by the Brazilian Senate found that some at ECAD had allegedly taken money intended for artists and had engaged in price fixing.[4]

Ronaldo Lemos, an academic from Fundação Getúlio Vargas, has said he believes ECAD used legal pressure on their critics and described them as a "litigation machine". Lemos claimed that leaked documents from ECAD showed that they planned to sue him.[4]

Their right to "ownership" of traditional Irish music I would think would be very hard to justify.

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Re: When music publishing companies claim to own the copyright to traditional Irish tunes

Interesting, Kenny, thanks. Then I’m screwed, because these nationwide companies are like a mafia. The one from Spain (SGAE) was also convicted for corruption and all this. They have 30 days to respond to my dispute. If they agree with it, they can release the claim. If they disagree, "they can choose to uphold it, and the claim will remain active on your video". And then I’d have to respond back, and then if YouTube decides I’m being fraudulent, they can terminate my channel. I’m guessing these guys will decide to fight to the end.

Once a guy started re-uploading a lot of my videos without my permission, I asked YouTube to take them down and they said I was being fraudulent and threatened to terminate my channel. Can you imagine? Some videos were over 10 years old when that guy uploaded them on his account but YouTube didn’t think I was right!