The blurry border between classical and traditional European music.

The blurry border between classical and traditional European music.

There are more examples in Irish music of composers and compositions the expose the classical quality of traditional music. John Field for example wrote "A favourite Irish Dance arranged as a Rondo" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_d2rOBxNbA. I’m interested to find Paddy Moloney’s dissertation on Irish music, which includes many references to these parallels.

Re: The blurry border between classical and traditional European music.

Since no-one else has replied, I’ll attempt to! I think there are parallels in Scottish music, with some of the 18th century composers such as the Gows, William Marshall, where some of it sounds definitely "trad" (albeit the new music of the day) and other compositions almost classical.
And Burns took an interest in the music of Haydn and Beethoven, I believe.
It’s late, but I’ll try to look up some more specific examples tomorrow!

Re: The blurry border between classical and traditional European music.

In India, traditional music is known as classical music.

Re: The blurry border between classical and traditional European music.

Yhaal, traditional music as a term is not used much in India. There’s classical music and folk music, which is as diverse as languages there, so every state usually has it’s own variety.

Re: The blurry border between classical and traditional European music.

trish santer said, "I think there are parallels in Scottish music, with some of the 18th century composers such as the Gows, William Marshall, where some…compositions almost classical…"

Can you give me some examples, Trish? I wouldn’t have said that Marshall or the Gows composed anything outside the traditional box, but I’d like to hear your thoughts. There are better examples: James Oswald, for example, and William McGibbon, even Robert Mackintosh a bit later.

And Burns taking an interest in Beethoven? I may have missed that one, but Ludwig had hardly got started by the time Burns died. A wee bit later Beethoven and Haydn did compose settings of Scottish songs. Something in my memory tells me that money was the main drive in that, but I might be wrong; at the beginning of the 19th century Scotland and all things Scottish enjoyed a major vogue in Romantic Europe.

As to the original post, I would point to fiddlers John Sheahan and Kevin Burke, both of whom studied classical music and have produced music influenced by both traditional and classical/baroque styles. The latter’s "Irish Session Suite" in four movements (on his 2010 album Suite) might be a good starting point. Other musicians worth chacking out include Derek Bell, Sean O’Riada, Michael O’Suilleabhain, and Charlie Lennon.

Let us know, Brendan, where your investigations take you.

Re: The blurry border between classical and traditional European music.

I think because much of our fiddle music was performed in "polite circles" in the 18th/19th centuries, there is tendency to think of it as "classical" as opposed to traditional music even although, as Nigel states, its actual structure suggests otherwise.

Also, just because a musician may have had formal musical education and/or or even some classical training, this doesn’t necessarily mean that his or her compositions are "classical" as such although there may well be some influence or overlap.

Re: The blurry border between classical and traditional European music.

I should clarify that the above post was specifically in relation to Scottish fiddle music and composers of that particular period as opposed to fiddle tunes in general.

Re: The blurry border between classical and traditional European music.

"A wee bit later Beethoven and Haydn did compose settings of Scottish songs"

there’s some interesting background on Beethoven’s "folk song arrangements" here: https://www.triovanbeethoven.at/cms_site_en/Programmes/Folksong-Arrangements-by-Haydn-and-Beethoven/Folksong-Arrangements-by-Beethoven

according to this page, the arrangements were requested by a Scottish folk music collector, George Thomson, who paid various composers including Beethoven and Haydn to compose them; at the same time Thomson commissioned poets, including Burns, to write new lyrics for the traditional songs, although it doesn’t mention any direction connection between Burns and Beethoven.

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Re: The blurry border between classical and traditional European music.

Sorry, my late night posting was a wee bit inaccurate, with certain things mixed a bit in my senior memory! Nigel, Johnny and ft have it more correctly, the boot being on the other foot, so to speak!
And, yes, some lovely tunes from the Irish composers mentioned by Nigel: in one video I saw of John Sheahan playing, he was complimented as "Mr Baroque Sheahan". Add to the list Shaun Davey.

Re: The blurry border between classical and traditional European music.

Beethoven studied Irish music more than any other European folk tradition. Ode to Irish Airs is a fine album. Mozart & Frank Kelly had collaborations. John Field invented the nocturne and exploited Irish music normally. Henry Flood has an important study on these connections going back to St. Gall’s monastery where Irish music was at the heart of classical forms.