Ancient Celtic/Druid music BCE/AD

I’m a film producer in Los Angeles and now working on pre-production of a film called BRIGANTIA, a drama about early England during the time of Christ, the Druids and the way of life. I am seeking any information on MUSIC from that time period, even music that has been handed down but the origin comes from the early AD/BCE time or earlier. This is very difficult but i know there are many songs that were passed down that originated from that era. Please HELP post and/or email us asap and THANKS,

Hi! OK, which songs do you already know that were passed down from around from that time? Just to get us started?

Interesting. If you really want historical accuracy, I would think you’d be best to approach a university music department, and find out who the authorities are, and take it from there. You might get some leads on that here; there are a few pretty knowledgeable characters hanging around.

On the other hand, if you’re looking more for something vaguely plausible that will create the effect you’re after, you’ll quite possibly get some workable ideas here. Someone may know of a band or ensemble that purports to specialize in Druidic music ….

Just to be sure, you’re not saying it was aliens?

From the website:

‘Brigantia’ brings to life the true origins of Britain whose ancient history has been wholly ignored in film, educational institutions, and in general history. It proves that ancient Briton had a well organized and advanced civilization with buildings, roads, ships, an thriving economy, a strong army long before the invasion of Rome, and that this advanced civilization existed long before the empire of Rome, the philosophers of Greece, and the pyramids of Egypt. It proves that the Britons prior to most ancient civilizations even had mathematics, philosphy, science, and metaphysical abilites that has been lost through the annals of time. but even more, the real spiritual connection of humankind and powers of the universe..

A golden age of Briton civilization without mainland influences. O dear.

Yhaal House 3: There is only an old chant Druid recording from the 20’s that purports to be ‘real’. the other was ‘Greensleeves’? Again, I need help. I am familiar with brythonic and ancient hostory, just not music ‘Songs’.
meself : Universities have been as much help as a horse turd in a field! this is why i need to go to true enthusiasts of the time.
shaketree; NO ALIENS! Angels YES, God, YES! Even early christendom, yes. And YES ‘O dear’, this is why I need help.

I do appreciate the quick response THANK YOU. Can anyone in their knowledge give me some sort of lead for the earliest songs they know, be it from Ireland, England, Wales, etc.? I know some that are dated 600AD and back were passed down thru story and melody memory from a much earlier time.

Apparently this project involves a concept of ancient Britain that’s just a wee bit off the scholarly track. From an interview about the upcoming film in "Ancient Origins Magazine," Thomas Bond says:

"Also, a little secret, Druids DID master vibration of energy and proof dictates they did move giant stones by only the fingertips through sound vibrations from instruments, and ‘Bent’ the air, also we firmly believe ESP too, there are many accounts of this. Today, we know all of this is very possible through modern quantum physics. But, to sum it up, this WILL be shown in the film, and much more."

https://www.ancient-origins.net/Ancient-Origins-Magazine/56/

Hey, it’s a movie, what are ‘ya gonna do. It’s an interesting thought experiment though. Which trad instrument would you use to vibrate the air and move giant stones around? It’s too early for fiddle and pipes. I’ve heard a bodhran played in a way that physically removed me from a session. So maybe that’s a start.

Maybe try:

www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/

or metaphysics as you see fit…

Thomas, to say we’re enthusiasts of the time is rather funny. I would say that for the majority of us the earliest British/Irish things we play are from the 17th Century AD at the latest. Even modern Welsh crwth music is of questionnable antiquity although I know next to nothing about it myself.

Daniel, thank you, just reaching out to whatever sources I can find.

Also, for the record, bagpipes came to Scotland no earlier than the 15th or 16th century AD, so that won’t help you much either. I would recommend looking at Welsh crwth and bagpipe music (although I don’t know how ancient that stuff is), or Gaelic harp music (although the stuff played now is mostly not ancient) for inspiration. I would think the universities would be the most helpful - might you be able to give us some idea of why they aren’t?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azo7mSt8o9M

play video

Pure speculation…..the quote from the Ancient Origins Magazine, in my opinion, says it all in more ways than one.
Anyway, I should, I suppose, remind myself that this is ‘a drama’ and it is ‘Hollywood’ Perhaps John Williams might be better able to help out for this project in terms of supplying the ‘music’. Alternatively any ‘New Age Celtic’ stuff would fit the bill? More economical than hiring John Williams I would have thought.
Any sources purporting to be original music from that time without credible evidence would be surely be questionable and would leave the project open to all sorts of criticism/trollery.

Good luck with the project though, hope it makes a fortune for you - you never know. Perhaps the next Game of Thrones…..?

‘would be surely be questionable’ ???

I’m tired and my brain has had it for today…..

john knoss: Thanks for the comment, glad you brought this up so we can be clear on the film. YES there is ‘Speculation’, but not ‘Pure’ speculation. As we can say the ‘Bible’ is pure speculation then this would fall under speculative on the parts and gaps that are missing. The film is and will be backed up with many references and we will be publishing a bibliography to that effect. we also want to be as historically correct as possible. there IS and WAS music from that time obviously, but just trying to find the accurate type. On a ‘Hollywood’ film, this film will be shot in Yorkshire UK and will be a BRITON film. I do not like nor to I lean towards fictional jibberish such as THE MUMMY, even GAME OF THRONES, etc. This is why we will not have ‘Celtic’ new age music, but only the music that is as authentic as we can obtain.

On Patrick’s video, the description never states where they got the recording, whether the melody itself is ancient (I’m guessing not), or even the factual accuracy or context of any of the information. Also, it’s just a YouTube video. I wouldn’t hedge my bets on it, that’s for sure.

Cicero wasn’t that sure there was any worthwhile music.

“The result of the British war is a source of anxiety. For it is ascertained that the approaches to the island are protected by astonishing masses of cliff. Moreover, it is now known that there isn’t a pennyweight of silver in that island, nor any hope of booty except from slaves, among whom I don’t suppose you can expect any instructed in literature or music.”

Thomas, when I say ‘Hollywood’ I am using it as a descriptor for the origins of the type of project. ‘Shot on location’ is entirely another thing. It will still be a ‘drama’ (your own description) and the comments made in the interview from the Ancient Origins Magazine are still speculative without, so far, any solid irrefutable evidence. I can’t help but be reminded about Erich von Daniken’s ‘Chariots of the Gods’.
I realise you have a lot riding on this job and the time and effort involved are considerable, also that you are committed to the project on many levels. It’s just that it seems to be bordering on the edges of the fantastic.


Questioning the authenticity of the Bible (whether you believe in it or not) is not really helping your cause. That’s just distraction.

As I said, good luck with the project….

"fictional jibberish such as THE MUMMY, even GAME OF THRONES"…. I object! Game of Thrones is not gibberish, it’s entertaining fantasy and most people enjoyed it for that. That’s what fictional is. It wasn’t pretending to have any actual historical connection, such as my unhesitating first choice for gibberish, i.e., Bray-fart;- though that was not so much gibberish as total inaccurate crap, Irish pipe music being about the least of it.
You say that,"Universities have been as much help as a horse turd in a field!" Well as an ex academic (archaeologist) I would suggest that if they don’t know then nobody else does. Okay you could easily find some individual who claims to know, but if you can’t authenticate it then is just can’t be authentic (Greensleeves? HA, ha!). So you may just as well make it up. I mean, who would know? I’m also interested to know what musical instruments you think they had.

I took his comment about universities to imply that they had not been forthcoming with information or advice, not that they didn’t know …. I don’t know how you (Gobby) handled such matters in your working life, but the one time I cold-called an academic for some specialized help, that comment about the horse product would apply.

Wait, now - there was another time, and that particular academic was quite helpful … !

Didn’t some folks record music on reconstructed bronze lurs a few years back? I’m looking for a link.

@meself, Well I guess that academics come in all varieties. Most of the ones I worked with were only too eager to share their ‘knowledge’. The problem is that quite often such knowledge itself amounted to horse droppings (Most of it in my experience), but my point is that if the specialised professionals at universities can’t point to where to obtain whatever information is available then nobody else can. Myself, meself, I would just do my own research at the appropriate university libraries. Even then, you have the personal obligation to sort out fact from ‘historical’ fiction, which is why I took on archaeology over history. There are some questions which must still be answered with "Nobody knows" and I suspect that this is one of them. Keep in mind however that I am a total sceptic when it comes to historical depiction. I have been kicked out of movies!

Re the bronze lurs. I am not sure that I would class them as a musical instrument. Lurs (which, by the way, were so-named by archaeologists) were, as far as I know, used as a horn to call warriors into battle. I am not sure how a large single note horn could be used to play music. You can, of course get a tune out of a bugle, and you can get different noises out of a didgeridoo, but it is the function of the lurs, which, given the archaeolgical findings I suspect was held sacred, that would render it not a musical instrument, at least,not in the minds of the people who knew. All of this is speculation however, because none of us were there.

It’s funny how time distorts the veracity of historical knowledge. I mentioned the digeridoo. It is commonly held to be a ‘musical’ instrument played by Australian Aborigines. In fact it was only traditional to the area of Arnhem Land, a part of the Northern territory, and there it was a sacred instrument only ever played by men. Whether they regarded it as a musical instrument or a sacred ‘story teller" I am, from my own experience, unsure. I would favour the latter. But I lived with a remote family of these people through 1990-91 and I experienced them using the didge in their ceremonies. They would have been horrified if they were able to see the lack of understanding and respect given to it by the ‘Ballanders’ (ie., ANY outsider, whether Aboriginal or white), yet I have commonly witnessed such people pretending that they know. I once pointed out that a woman shouldn’t be playing one and I was accused of both sexism and racism. The point is that these people were from their own world and only they knew the meaning and reality of it. We just have no way whatsoever of understanding the Druid world. You may as well treat it as fantasy from the very start.

Since ShakeTree mentioned Ask Historians on Reddit, here’s an overview of the issue with ascribing "Celtic" music to the "Celts:"

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/58c43q/celtic_music_is_a_popular_music_genre_nowadays/

This might be what the OP is looking for, focusing mainly on bronze and wood horns that were apparently the big thing in Bronze Age Ireland:
http://www.ancientmusicireland.com/

Soundcloud recording of a replica horn from 100BC (and there’s that bodhran again…):
https://soundcloud.com/ancient-music-ireland-1/01-ar-aghaigh

Another link that may be of use:
http://irisharchaeology.ie/2014/03/five-ancient-musical-instruments-from-ireland/

First, I want to thank EVERYONE for their input and I do APOLIGIZE for stepping on toes. I understand that so little is known and that is what we are trying to piece together. I do believe that the Bible and also some history HAS TO have some fill in conjecture, this is not a BAD thing, just needed. We were VERY fortunate to have alot of substantial and verifiable information about those times for our screenplay. However, the MUSIC is what was lacking. As for the modern ‘Fantasy’ films that are fictional, to ‘Me’ they are hard to udnerstand, though I know that they bring great entertainment for those who do understand, so please do not take offense with my one-person opinion.

Here is what we need, actual MUSIC passed down, written, etc., whose origins go back to the BC./AD era (Bronze and Iron age). I need your HELP and i do truly thank everyone. So, please send whatever leads, information or thoughts you have, and ALL are GREATLY appreciated.

We have some evidence for bird-bone flutes/whistles. These actually pre-date the Era you are pointing at. As to the ‘music’, your guess is as good as anyone’s. The Carynx video is only an attempt to show the possibilities the reconstructed horn COULD produce.

Not the genre you’re looking for, but related to the general idea … these people tried to re-construct ancient greek music through their old texts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vVN748-GJ0

play video

And this site is usually good for finding origins/dates of tunes:
https://tunearch.org/wiki/TTA

Perhaps you could stumble onto some old music there.

Pretty sure it’s English, here’s an old one … Haste to the Wedding (jig)

While probably not appropriate at all,
I would go for a droney but well played Crwth
Like in the video at 7:50 or thereabouts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svci-AA6ycw&app=desktop

play video

Intersperse the melody with blasts of a horn to be the lur. And Bobs your uncle.
In a film purporting to prove druids moved rocks with vibrations, any old sounds will do.

Barnaby Brown makes great music on Aulos type instruments :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6_hKK06hSs&app=desktop

play video

Triple pipes, aulos, pibgorn, duduk

These are the type sounds i’d be aiming for.
Accuracy be damned.

"Here is what we need, actual MUSIC passed down, written, etc., whose origins go back to the BC./AD era (Bronze and Iron age). I need your HELP and i do truly thank everyone. So, please send whatever leads, information or thoughts you have, and ALL are GREATLY appreciated."

Don’t think you’re going to find any ‘magic bullet’ solution for this. You’re not going get ‘actual MUSIC passed down, written, etc., whose origins go back to the BC./AD era’ - impossible. All you can do is conjecture and make a passable attempt.

As regards Ireland, whose history wouldn’t differ all that greatly from Britain (despite what some people would have us believe) - most of what we have in written texts about the early centuries AD comes from various ‘books’ written by the church in the following centuries. The likes of the ‘Book of Leinster’ 11th/12th century, ‘Lives of the Saints’ etc. So the info is filtered through the new religious perspective.

So you might do worse that look at some of the religious singing tradition that has been handed down. Gregorian Chant and the like which was probably influenced you’d think by the music of the day. Singing with whistle and harp would be reasonable, I’d think FWIW.

Thomas
I have sent you a private message on the subject.
Munro

> I am not sure how a large single note horn could be used to play music.

The same way the Baroque trumpeters did, by being able to play up as far as the 24th harmonic.

As for the OP: no historical records exist, we do not know what instruments, if any, they had and we do not know anything about their music of any kind. What you have found so far is made up gibberish.

We deal with contemporary music here that is occasionally informed by historical practice.

"Also, for the record, bagpipes came to Scotland no earlier than the 15th or 16th century AD …"

Well, lots of scholarship on this issue. Roderick Cannon, Hugh Cheape et. al. You’re painting a broad brush here. Depends upon the kind of pipe we’re talking about. My understanding (and I’m no scholar) is that certain more primitive forms of pipes we’re around pre-15th century. But the Highland pipes in modern form? No.

Thomas: I’m afraid you will find that there is actually no real evidence of individual, extant pieces of music or song that can be traced back to the era of your interest. You may well have come across someone claiming to have uncovered such a lineage, and if you want to use that to tell a good story, you can do that, of course, but if you do want historical accuracy, the best you will be able to do is informed (somewhat), reasonable speculation.

You may want to take some of the instruments that do seem to be of the time and place - flutes/pipes, harp, for example - and create, or have some musician create, music for them, with the appropriate feel for your movie.

Thomas Bond -if you are setting your story at the time of Christ, better not call it early England as the Angles didnt establish themselves here until c. 400 AD - the Britons and the few remaining Roman Legions tried to keep them out, but unsuccessfully, and here we are 2000 years later speaking English…………..

“The Return from Fingal” is sometimes cited as the oldest known Irish tune, supposed to have been the march played by Brian Boru’s troops on their return home from their triumph over the Danes in 1014, in which Boru was killed. But even if this tune’s provenance is true and not just wishful thinking, that’s a thousand years after the period you’re interested in.

Some of the first-century music in the northeast Atlantic archipelago was almost certainly influenced by Roman and Greek music, of which a bit more is known. You could plausibly take a Greek melody and play it on aulos, cithara and carnyx. That probably happened more than once in the court of Cartimandua.

https://youtu.be/qAXzzHM8zLw

play video

Ok!
Mr Bond, everyone has an opinion but, definitively, no-one knows.

I really enjoyed PatrickJWK’s video. That’s a piece of work all right.

Some-one is obviously hoarding a treasure & they aren’t putting it’s contents online. That or it’s carefully hidden in a secret trust…or a buried time capsule. Has anyone ever played a Micho Russell LP backwards?
"…i know there are many songs that were passed down that originated from that era."
Passed down how & to whom?

If you are using the bible as a historical text you might as well just give up on any other pretense at historical accuracy too, you are already in way too deep to get close. As for any uninterrupted hand me down melodies, tunes, rhymes or songs, forget it. A preliterate age has none of these, you might as well go an ask an inhabitant of Cairo what Cleopatra was sung for a lullaby. You’ve no hope at all. These Islands haven’t even got an uninterrupted musical history in the majority of the contemporary folk instrument traditions.

The only starting point I can see for historical accuracy in your case is to see what kind of beat up, peat covered, potentially instrument shaped objects the archaeologists have pulled up and see what you can do from that. My guess is you are so far into that New Age Christian, mumbo jumbo in this proposed project you’d be better off with a loop of Enya and a gospel choir doing your soundtrack. Shove it together with a bit of 10th Century Latin choral music an no one in the good old south will be any the wiser. History be damned.

One further little warning, whilst you and the team are rooting through the archaeology for ancient wig glue recipes and V.A.F. tunes, I believe the Beaker People had rudimentary plumbing. Watch that the pipe you’re trying to play a 4th B.C. jig on isn’t actually intended for a Bronze Age cesspit. Such an inaccuracy would really cast doubt on the ground breaking research already done into pre-Roman esp in Western Europe, we wouldn’t want to portray our ancestors as a bunch of mud hut dwelling savants now would we?

"Universities have been as much help as a horse turd in a field!" That should be your clue. If what you are looking for actually existed they would have bent over backwards to help you.

Hey Thomas. I’m fascinated by the concept but you must understand you’ll be pressed to find much. Written music wasn’t close to being invented until well into the Middle Ages. . the 1200s. . and even then there’s no concept how it ACTUALLY sounded. What was handed down was church choral music. What might have been handed down from the common folk was probably altered little by little, bit by bit. Let’s face it, so many of us like to jazz up bluegrass tunes simply to give them a boost and some individuality. Within just a century or two, a tune might have been unrecognisable from the original.

But there are some who try to go in search of ancient music like archealogists digging in the dirt. One is a musicologist names Iren Lovasz. She’s Hungarian and she’s compiled a collection of ancient Magyar music from central Europe called "Rosebuds in a Stoneyard." It’s not just beautiful stuff. It’s also somewhat creepy at the same time, and listening to it, you get the feeling that these songs truly come from the soil. Although Magyars are not Celts, you might get some idea of what the music MIGHT have sounded like. If anything, I suggest you contact Iren and maybe she can provide some further direction. KEEP US UPDATED!

https://www.amazon.com/Rosebuds-Stoneyard-Ancient-Hungarian-Folksongs/dp/B00000B0BT

Agree with Steve T. The Druids were wiped out by the Romans the early part of the common era and since theirs was an oral tradition basically nothing is left of it that was not adulterated by the Romans who had a political axe to grind and the Christian monks who later wrote things down. Look to the old stories for the words of ballads but be aware they’ve been through a tight filter. Examples of the earliest sounds might be something like Corwen Broch’s instruments.

Want to thank everyone for the information and thoughts. PLEASE keep it coming with any information you have. I want to be CLEAR that so much of ‘Actual’ history cannot be verified except by the writings that exist of people at that time period, and how can even those be verified as ‘Truthful’? The only thing that does substantiate ANY history is archaeology and that is only a small percentage. So, it is agreed that to recreate history we must plunge in to a point and try our best to disseminate the stories, writings, etc. that SEEM to go with a realistic flow and comparison to other writings/stories of the time. NO ONE CAN BE COMPLETELY ACCURATE or even very close, we do our best. If we did not rely on that, then there would be few history books ever written. But we are ‘Trying’.

LOTS OF CAPITALS THERE THOMAS. Trying to make a point so bold isn’t always a good thing when also crying for help on a magical mystery tour. I personally think you are deluded and the cause you espouse is pretty much doomed to sound like every other christian/new age celtic bull that gets disseminated as "history" on the back of some very dubious and slewed notions of what is and what is not evidence. You’ve less than a cat in the hell you probably believe in chance of getting a sensible answer here. Frame a reasonable question to an informed bunch of academics, without the new age bull, you’ll probably get somewhere eventually. Best to start listening to Enya and The 16 though I suggest.

I just googled an interview with Thomas Bond on the making of Brigantia - ‘my own family traces back to about 580AD, from Cornwall on my dad’s side’………………wow, anyone else on these islands trace their family back 1400 years?

Why should we care? No one is under any obligation to pay any attention to T. Bond, his question, or this thread.

I think your comments are a little harsh and a little uncivil there Steve T.
Thomas,- as you know ‘actuality’ of the past is ALWAYS unobtainable. That, however doesn’t bar your movie from being entertaining and believable to those who just want to enjoy whatever inevitable level of fantasy is created. As an archaeologist who is sceptical of most archaeological and historical interpretations, I am a fan of historical fantasy as long as the movie is entertaining and isn’t and insult to the intelligence, like "Bray-fart". So I applaud you for your efforts to research as best you can, and it is of course possible to create fantasy with a sense of realism . But the music??. Well my best recommendation would be to use some thing from Vangelis. A lot of his stuff has a sense of timelessness about it.

> I think your comments are a little harsh and a little uncivil there Steve T.

I think someone has to explain that the historical method is a little bit more exacting than his approach, since he has said that he wishes to *be* historical. To that end I don’t think Steve’s words are over-egging the issue.

You may well be right Calum. I tend towards over-sensitivity. Of course Thomas’ wishes to be historically correct is impossible, not the least reason being that most of what he wants to know occurred in pre-history. I am just a little uncomfortable with how close some of the response to this this guys request for advice and help have had tones of personal ridicule, and that is how I interpreted Steve’s comment. And what, for example, has Christy Taylor’s latest comment got to do with anything? The guy didn’t come here for that. He is just trying to make a movie. Okay, if I read Steve’s comments wrongly I retract what I said. I will take issue with him one one thing though. He wrote, "Frame a reasonable question to an informed bunch of academics, without the new age bull, you’ll probably get somewhere eventually"…. Well no actually, he would get no further than he has here.

In the end, if I ever get to see the film (and I hope I do) I will judge it on its entertainment value and not on its inevitable ‘historical’ unreality. That was the intended point of my initial comment when I objected to the O.P.’s put down of "Game of Thrones". I enjoyed Game of Thrones, and my point was that If we are to fabricate history,which is all we are ever capable of, then at least make it entertaining. "Game of Thrones"… Like The Tudors on steroids! Yes, good stuff. And filmed in Ireland of course. Where are you filming your movie aboutDruids by the way Thomas?

You’re right, Gobby. Thomas seems to be a guy who has a dream of making a successful, low-budget movie - I doubt he is a high-rolling, Hollywood power-broker (are you, Thomas?). I would save the mockery for those who really deserve it - there are plenty enough of them.

Wow! Cheers, Thomas. What music does the film currently have? I saw the (Ancient Origins) magazine article & the twitter fed. Something about a composition for the movie’s theme?

Gobby, it’s filmed in Yorkshire, UK & Thomas is based in L.A., USA.

Keep us posted, TB!

@meself
" I would save the mockery for those who really deserve it - there are plenty enough of them."

I live in a town where people promote things like "touch healing" and other New Age nonsense, so I have an immediate knee-jerk reaction to someone promoting Druidic ESP. People can actually be harmed by pseudo-science. But in this case I tried to tamp it down, and offer some historical info.

My personal view, is that if we want to live in a world where we all respect the benefits of a scientific world-view that makes our current lifestyle possible, then we have to spend some effort defending it. And that means no ESP, no moving neolithic stones with musical vibrations. It’s all in fun until it isn’t, and too many people start determining public policy based on pseudoscience.

I know it’s "just a movie," which is why my initial reaction is "what are ‘ya gonna do." But at a deeper level, this stuff matters.

Yeah, I getcha. I seem to live at a safe enough distance from all that - so far, anyway …. But I’m still not sure that mockery is the best response - but I’m not sure what is, either, having, over the years, wasted too much time both on the internet and in real life arguing with people whose minds are made up ….

@Conical bore, I once lived with a remote Aboriginal clan in Arnhem Land, Northern Australia. Those people knew nothing of scientific methodology and belief. Their belief system really was based on magic and a totally ‘spirit’ world. FOR THEM it was a functional reality which had worked FOR THEM for thousands of years. The trouble is that even though I lived in their almost stone-age life-style for over a year, I am still unqualified to interpret it, let alone explain it to somebody who is from my own world (it literally did my head in when I came back ‘home’). I do know however that like all human cultures (including science), these people held metaphysical beliefs but no matter how they tried, had no ability to control the world with them. The Druid led world is even more unreachable and untranslatable to and from our world(s). AS far as movies go, well I don’t believe in dragons so put dragons in it so that I know it’s intended as fantasy. It will be fantasy whatever.

Gobby I am not mocking the guy for the sake of mockery but doesnt claiming to trace your family roots 1400 years back to Cornwall invite just that? Was Merlin his great-great X 1000 grandaddy? Come on lets be sensible! I personally wish the guy success with his movie and hope whatever music he comes up with is at least believable, I hope to watch it when its released and might even enjoy it. Final word.

I can’t but feel a small twinge of sympathy for the poor fella. He came here looking for some help to fulfil a dream. Perhaps a simple ‘there ain’t no such thing as extant Celtic music written or played’ would have been all that would have been needed.

Life isn’t like that however and ‘faithholders’ whoever and of whatever kind can end up being taken apart for want of a better expression. That’s not to say some beliefs aren’t heinous and need to be called out, disingenuous or just plain harmless fantasy.

But I guess the internet has made us all less kindly to a greater or lesser extent despite our best intentions or in some cases deliberate intentions.

All I can do is to wish him well in his pursuit of life, liberty and happiness. Sounds sort of familiar doesn’t it? Or am I getting maudlin’ in me dotage?

Back to the music……yeehaaa!

I’d like to congratulate THOMAS BOND for being such a good sport.

Contemporary sources are always the best. Writing in about 50 BCE Cicero said of Britain: "It is also now ascertained that there isn’t a grain of silver on the island nor any prospect of booty apart from captives, and I fancy you won’t expect any of them to be highly qualified in literature or music!".

Perhaps if you want music in your film you should write some Romans into the plot. They at least had some instruments you could reconstruct, though you still won’t know what music they played on them.

Hello everyone, thnak you for the input, will TRY to refeain from CAPS lol :)
First to Steve T.

Being skeptical is a good thing and having an opinion is everyone’s right. This film, out even here in the usa has alot of very talented and capable people working not only on research but story development, not just me. I also am not a fan of "new age celtic bull that gets disseminated as ‘history’ on the back of some very dubious and slewed notions of what is and what is not evidence.", and we have taken every measure to avoid this. However, the "Christian" part connected with Keldanes "Druids" (Not today’s church, but very early Essenes, Druids, prior to church control, etc.) is often overlooked but is historcial fact, so that is not the "normal", which is a very good thing. Also, very happy to announce we are acquiring the help of a "informed bunch of academics, without the new age bull" which we will be announcing soon. But I do believe knowledge can come from all sources, so you listen to all with discernible but open mind, which I will continue to do. Also, I think it would be wonderful to have a "magical mystery tour" film style, factual yet intriguing.

Christy Taylor - Even though my comment was just a non-important added post, thank you and yes the family goes back aways.

Callum - Yes to be " ‘Completely’ historically correct is impossible" is more like it. I will clarify, we are in pre-production so to ‘be’ historical was used, but to clarify again, we (As in a collective effort) ‘are’ historically correct, moreso than any other film done on this subject, and that is factual. Again, having a companion ‘historical’ bibliography book that will be for the film. Also, ‘yes’ it will have ‘good entertainment value, which is very important.

Gobby - Thank you also.What is special about the film is that we took the time to do full research and we have quite a bit of non-Roman information that can be cited (Hence, the historical and bibliography companion book that will come out when the film does). I agree some are stories and some cannot be fully verified, but alot is and we are very fortunate for this. On the music, we have already have great leads on "authentic" music of the time, but we still welcome ALL information (Sorry for CAPS). Also, we may be filimg some in Ireland and definatley have strong reference to "Inis Ealga" in the storyline. Some of the ‘Druids’ escaped Enez a’Buoch (Anglessey) and made it to Inis Ealga across the Irish Sea to what is now ‘Dublin’ area, and there we found a wealth of verifiable information. Also, fascinating you once lived with a remote Aboriginal clan in Arnhem Land. You are correct for ‘them’ but again if I went on with citing facts I would be here for 10 years, but yes there is factual evidence of the metaphysical, and I am not a spiritual person nor soothsayer, I’m a skeptic.

meself - I will clarify in all CAPS "HOLLYWOOD IS A DUMP, AND FULL OF TWATS" This quote is also from my Leeds-Yorkshire brn and raised wife, and I completely agree,. I was born here in LA USA and it is not the same, so completely agree with, so please be cheeky to the ‘Hollywood’ swamp bunch! I am not one of them.

AB - Yes we are working on music, but i insist that the score be at least ‘based’ on the music of that time. We also will be using all the instruments of that time too, along with a regular orchestration. Also, we are filming in Yorkshire ‘not’ in the usa because that is where is all began, and also I to love north UK.

Comical bore - Too much to say here and cite about ‘Metaphysical’, (Remember, it is not just me, we have a group on this) ‘But’ wait until the companion book comes out, and ‘yes’ This stuff matters :)

To all the rest thank you, and I think from here we found our music. But, please keep any new information coming.

They didn’t have any modern instruments other than basic flutes (which were extant in Europe by around 45,000 BC— there are a bunch discovered in Germany) and probably basic drums. Pipes, fiddle, mandolin etc etc are all 1500s and later.

The harp isn’t mentioned before about 1045 AD (by a Norman who visited Ireland).

They would have almost certainly had religious music played at ritual times (they were a settled civilisation) and probably also had the enormous variety of popular songs typical of pretty much anywhere, most of which would have told bawdy, historical, romantic and fighting-type stories. :-)


If I were doing a film on these, I would write the music as variations on Irish or Scottish traditional music, though for all we know the modes typical of these musics— Aeolian, Mixolydian, Dorian primarily— were imported by the catholic church (who had very set views on how music should be played— they even had banned intervals!)

I’d be happy to contribute. My time is worth $100/hr.

(With all due respect to Cicero, by ‘highly qualified’, he would seem to mean Royal Conservatory trained, with framed diploma on the wall, ready to be spirited off to continental soft-seat concert halls and up-market dinner theatres. We’ve all run into his type, haven’t we?).

Thomas -

The problem, for some of us at least, is that you are continuing to refer to terms such as "historically correct" and "historical facts’. Those comments are nails-on-a-blackboard to those of us with degrees in history, or read deeply in serious history, et. al. At least in the US, modern historiography is generally thought to have begun with Francis Parkman in the 19th century. Moderns scholars concluded, long ago, that ancient historians, scribes, etc. did not distinguish between fable and facts. The Bible and other similar ancient sources cannot be taken as "history" in the modern sense."Verifiable information" from the period you are referring to is a contradiction in terms, and suggests that, however well intentioned, you fail to understand you are on very, very shaky ground. And as to your "great leads on authentic music of the time", again it’s a bit of a strain to take you seriously.

Your project sounds interesting, and I/we wish you well. But please stop talking about "facts" and authenticity.

"yes there is factual evidence of the metaphysical"
Factual evidence of the metaphysical, blimey not only a film, sound track album but a Nobel prize in physics in the offing too. We are indeed blessed. If anyone does find an ancient relative with a sense of these things perhaps we will all benefit from the Euro Lottery numbers next week too. Please post them as soon as you can, my family obviously need to spend more time connecting with our roots. A few million would help there massively.

Thomas, I feel a bit penitent that you came to this forum looking for advice and got some useful answers, but also a bunch of smartass remarks [and yes I have to plead guilty to being part of it] . I dont know what music you’ll end up with,
but I would suggest a skin drum , probably more like the Mongolian/Siberian shaman drum than the modern bodhran, a cane fife, something like what they use in North Mississippi, maybe a reed pipe and a 5 string lyre. No one knows what music of the Druids sounded like but if you stick to pentatonic or minor scales it should sound fairly funky and tribal. Looking forward to the opening.

"yes there is factual evidence of the metaphysical"….
Well okay, science acknowledge the metaphysical realm and quantum physicists wouldn’t work without that acknowledgement (in the same way that mathematics doesn’t fully work without the CONCEPT of zero). And philosophers such as Wittgenstein argued that all belief must have a metaphysical ontology. But all that this is acknowledging is there is a vanishing point to what we can know. We can’t presently know things such as what we currently call ‘empty space’ (though the micro physical exploration continues). Or, what was there before ‘the big bang?" To a physicist that is the metaphysical realm;- i.e., beyond physics (so far). So in that, yes, there is evidence of the metaphysical, in fact it is invisibly obvious. But what you seem to be suggesting Thomas, is that these Druids etc, could manipulate the metaphysical. What you are talking about is’magic’ and outright superstition. Once a person tries to explain the metaphysical realm they are just applying a superstitious explanation. You may as well have said,"there is factual evidence for superstition". It’s the same with so-called ‘miracles’. There is no such thing as a miracle in actuality. It is just a word that points to an event we cannot explain, and only a superstitious person would jump to an unqualified conclusion as to why it happened (e.g., it MUST have been a ghost). If you show in your film that the Druids believed in and practised metaphysical superstition then that would likely be factual. But if your movie depicts that their superstitious beliefs could actually have effect on the physical world then that is just pure… let me think of a polite word…. well BOLLOCKS, really!
Also, Tervis and Tunes was exactly right about your claim to facts being out of line with contemporary historians. you really need to read some historiography before you can even understand what modern historians think about ‘historical facts’. I find it a bit gob-smacking that you claim to be a sceptic!!

Quantum physics has absolutely nothing to do with metaphysics. End of. I have never heard a scientist call the event horizon "metaphysical". Whatever Wittgenstein might have said he was not a physicist.

Going back to Christy’s last comment, I’m currently in a world music class where we’ve done case studies on made-up world music that was manufactured in a studio. It was on a Delta Air Lines ad with dolphins or something, and they gave it an African-inspired drumbeat and the lyrics were in a made-up language. I kid you not. They used a choir of women’s/children’s voices and a lot of soaring strings and other synthesizer work. And so they completely fabricated a track that was supposed to sound exotic and primitive and at the same time removed from anyone’ else’s factual tradition. Doesn’t have much to do with TB’s quest, granted, but that comment brought it back to mind.

Steve T have you ever heard of metaphysical realism? What you say is just not right. And no Wittgenstein was not a physicist but all science has an underlying philosophy and Wittgenstein, though admittedly not focussed on science, stepped up the concept from Russells positivism to metaphysical realism. Metaphysical realism is an acceptable ontology for quantum physics. Prior to that was physical atomism, where the smallest particle was accepted as the atom and the underlying philosophy of science was positivism. That all died out in around the 1920’s (or should have). When Einstein and other physicists talked of God do you think they were talking about a biblical God? No, it was a metaphor for both the unknowable upper and lower limits of the present knowledge of physics, i.e, metaphysics. Most quantum physicists acknowledge that what we call empty space is loaded with energy but they can not as yet account for what ‘fills’ empty space. It is therefore acknowledge as metaphysical, i.e., BEYOND current physical observation . Quantum physics cannot work without that acknowledgement. There has to be a zero! Metaphysics is perfectly acceptable to science. It is when people try to explain the unexplainable without scientific investigation that it becomes superstitious clap-trap.

@Gobby
"Most quantum physicists acknowledge that what we call empty space is loaded with energy but they can not as yet account for what ‘fills’ empty space. It is therefore acknowledge as metaphysical, i.e., BEYOND current physical observation "

No, physicists don’t talk like that, using the term metaphysics. There is only a difference in scale with what physics deals with, and it’s understood that complex systems like weather systems, consciousness, the Big Bang, and the physics of quantum gravity are not understood. That’s not metaphysics. The scale in which we humans operate is perfectly understood. That’s important. There is no room for ESP or telekinesis moving neolithic stone monuments with musical instrument vibrations.

This lecture below is my favorite clip from an actual physicist explaining how scale works, and why we’re allowed to say "No, that’s crazy" when someone brings up something like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Fel1VKEN8

play video

Sorry for the diversion from enjoying tunes together here, but I have this notion that it helps if we all agree about the consensus reality with live in, and what is BS and what is not BS.

Steve t, again…
From https://www.researchgate.net/post/What_is_the_relationship_between_science_and_metaphysics
“ Metaphysics and science go together in search of knowledge. This position (Putnam (1992)) states that metaphysics is possible but only when understood as “a posteriori” activity, i.e. the division between science and metaphysics is not that one is empiric and the other “a priori”. Metaphysics goes side by side with science. While science deals with specific situations, metaphysics deals with general matters, e.g. While a scientist talk about “nature laws”, a metaphysicist will study what are the characteristics that make a statement to qualify as a law. In this way metaphysics is -like everything else- “a posteriori”, but with a peculiar abstract character.”

And from Wikipedia,
"Metaphysics is the branch of philosophy that examines the fundamental nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, between substance and attribute, and between possibility and actuality."

The relationship between possibility and actuality was Wittgenstein’s speciality. You can’t separate philosophy metaphysics, or either of them from science. I am not, of course a physicist myself but I do have certain outdated qualifications in the philosophy of science. I could give you a long list of suggested readings on the subject except that I didn’t really join this site to argue such matters. I just got sucked along.

@ Conical bore, There is not much that I would wish to argue with you about that (I don’t wish to argue whatsoever)). The relationship between metaphysics and science is complex and there are thousands of various books on the subject. But what is undeniable is that there is a relationship. When you say, "There is no room for ESP or telekinesis moving neolithic stone monuments with musical instrument vibrations"… I totally agree with you that sort of metaphysical belief is unfounded rubbish. In quantum physics metaphysics and physics are inseparable in the effort to verify actuality.

The following link should be enough to end my argument. Whatever, I will end my argument here because (A) it is not what this site is about, and (B) I think most of us are in agreement that what Thomas means by metaphysics would be laughable to science. But regarding my claims on science and metaphysics, just read this - you don’t have to read the whole book, just the intro should suffice:-https://ndpr.nd.edu/news/quantum-ontology-a-guide-to-the-metaphysics-of-quantum-mechanics/

"what Thomas means by metaphysics would be laughable to science", and, I must add, to any historian.

You list your film as a drama, Brave Heart was a drama set in the 11th century Britain, in the music score the pipes that were used where not invented until the 18th century. Viewers loved the sound track, I do not believe the modern audiences would be appreciative of an authentic sound track even if you could come up with one. It would probably take away from its appeal sad but true.

Boy I’ve disagreed on so many different points in this thread! I’ve been trying to give that up. But Wandering piper, you are two centuries out with William Wallace. All that took place in the thirteenth century. Re the use of the Irish pipes in the soundtrack you said that ‘Viewers loved it’. Not this viewer! It really annoyed me.

The use of Uilleann pipes in the Braveheart soundtrack is worth griping about, but doesn’t it kind of pale in comparison with the idea of Druids moving giant stones with ESP and vibrations from their musical instruments? C’mon, traddies… focus! :)

I’s very difficult.

Romanticism of any sort is ofcourse firmly traditional for this genre. Most if the times we just don’t go as far back as the OP is trying to. As an historian I too long for prehistoric music, Greek paintings, an actual image of Christ etc, and it saddens that those things are lost forever to us. Luckily we have our imagination to fill in the gaps a bit. This has nothing to do with facts and science. It would be a very boring movie if the OP would stick to the facts. And a very boring discussion if he wasn’t trying to be ‘scientific’ about it!

https://bigthink.com/did-einstein-pray-what-the-great-genius-thought-about-god

Daniel Parker, I think you referring to "Adiemus" by Karl Jenkins, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiemus_(song) ?

I must say I am quite touched by the veracity of the members here. I came to try to obtain help on instruments and music from the early Iron Age BC/AD alone. Hence, the entire film has been scrutinized to the utmost degree from every detail, which in a way is complimentary, removing any derogatory comments. Because of this, now I must make my statement. If I listed the entire bibliography (In the WORKS - there i go with those damn caps again) and citings and research that has gone into this film, it would take of 5 entire blogs and ‘God’ knows how many pages, I digress… On historical ‘Facts’ and other items brought up that really have nothing to do with ancient Music, I will respond and will try to be as brief as possible. This statement is relative to the ‘Facts’ that are most known and recorded. A ‘Fact’ is still deluded by one person’s perception or bias, and to another it is not a ‘Fact’ and unacceptable is still deluded by that person’s perception or bias. Very true, you need to fill in gaps with storyline that is dramatized, but at least try to stick to the basic history that is known. One can say certain things ‘Did’ happen and/or exist in that time, some say those things did not. To be absolutely sure, was anyone living there at this time of BC/AD living today? I think not. So, the facts that are included are as well known as possible and/or written facts from that time and from that source (Obviously ‘Not’ Roman, since they were prejudicial to the Brits), but as stated ‘All’ facts are deluded by the person’s perception, the one who writes them down. I can go into the extreme with a very few ‘Modern’ revisionists, yes a segmented few, that go to the extent of denying the ‘Holocaust’, as unthinkable as that may be and that bothers me. So, when I state ‘Facts’, the facts are the best to ones knowledge and documented as possible and best attempt to verify at least the rudimentary accuracy. Continuing, to be as brief as possible, I could list another 40 pages on quantum physics, electromagnetic fields and sound frequencies, the ‘God’ particle, that Einstein was in latter years found his mistakes and errors and all that, but I do not pretend to be a Physicist (And many are ‘Theorectical’), or an expert on ‘Spiritualism’ which half the world ‘Does’ believe is ‘Fact’. I do not defend, nor do I negate unexplainable occurences and there were plenty in BC/AD, just that unusual things did happen. The old adage ‘All myths are loosely based in reality’, is true to a point, but we also negate that by having all research documented (See the book from the movie ‘Brigantia’ coming soon). I end on this note, that we have found some great sources for ancient ‘Music’ of the time and we proceed with our endeavor, and I truly hope when it comes out that everyone here can go see the film and enjoy… Cheers!

Thomas, or anyone, is there any evidence or knowledge of Druidism being practiced during the same time period when Stone Henge was originally constructed?

Thomas, where is the henge site for the photos in your Ancient Origins article?

Nobody ACTUALLY knows!

We might hope that the National Museum of Wales have made a fair attempt at summarising what is known about Druids and would have got some feedback from academics if it was badly wrong. https://museum.wales/articles/2007-05-03/Ancient-druids-of-Wales/ Their background reading list may be good.

Stonehenge? It would seeem no evidence or knowldege.

Thomas, if you have been met with veracity it is because you claimed to be employing factual history, and yet what you describe appears to most of us here (I feel sure) to only be outright fantasy. You claim that "Druids DID master vibration of energy and proof dictates they did move giant stones by only the fingertips through sound vibrations from instruments, and ‘Bent’ the air " What proof ? I defy you to produce it! And then,… "also we firmly believe ESP too, there are many accounts of this". Firstly, many accounts of this does not make ESP a fact. All it means is that many people have been fooled into believing it. Talk about Gullible’s Travels!! How many people believed that Uri Geller could bend spoons with his mind? And you claim that "Today, we know all of this is very possible through modern quantum physics". That is totally untrue! If modern physics could prove that such fantasy were possible then we would by now be applying it. But somehow,we are still reliant on cranes nd things to move bog rocks. I doubt that you could find one reputable quantum physicist who would support what you say. If you were to be making a movie about Ireland, your mistake would be this: People believed in leprechauns. THAT is a fact, therefore it is a fact that leprechauns existed. Finally, you have claimed that this period has been ‘overlooked’ by historians. My first objection to that is that most of the era you are looking at is classed as pre-history (not recorded) what has been recorded was often written down centuries later and is therefore not fact but unreliable hearsay, written through the eyes of people who would have no understanding. Historians have not overlooked this era, it is just, to roughly quote Wittgenstein, "What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence". You simply cannot claim to base your movie one historical, scientific or cultural ‘fact’!

And just to be clear to those who I believe misinterpreted my stated belief in metaphysics, I am not suggesting the metaphysical to be a spooky case of mind-over-matter, as Thomas seems to be doing. To a scientist metaphysics is a merely a legitimate branch of philosophy that strives, amongst other things to provide a working ontology for how physics explains the world. Both the big bang and God provide suggested metaphysical ontologies. I am sure that eventually Quantum physics and/or astro- physics will force metaphysics into many new re-thinks. That’s how it progresses. So what is the primary mover? Certainly not the human mind!

This thread would have been a lot shorter if the OP had simply said, "Look, we’re going to do a movie about ancient Britons circa 100 BCE, and we’re going to have them moving giant neolithic stones with psychic vibrations from their musical instruments. It’s a fantasy, not meant to be historically accurate. What instruments do you suggest we use to show this, and what music?"

And then I’d go back to the suggestion I made earlier about bronze horns, as the most believable instrument to show that, because they’re loud and make a continuous sound. Until you run out of breath, but then you can have a dozen players at once building your henge formation. Simple. It’s the insistence that any of this can be historically accurate that led to the wild goose chase.

Yes, Conical, you are right! Had the thread been worded like that the response would have been totally different. We are only human! (Well most of us) and we responded as seemed glaringly necessary. As I said earlier, I personally liked Game of Thrones because it is fantasy from the start and doesn’t pretend otherwise. I am also a big fan of any old cowboy movies. I do enjoy a bit of mindless crap, because it doesn’t claim to be real. So I now doubt I that I dare ever watch ‘Brigantia’; not after what Brave-heart did to me (you should have seen my psychiatrist bill!).

Thomas, maybe share some or even one of your newfound sources on prehistoric Briton music? I for one am now quite interested! It’s not very nice to go asking people to give you advice, then wave this massive bibliography about and then tell everyone that you already found what you needed.

Thank you for all your comments. Sorry for a ‘Wordy’ response, I just want my last post here to be clear. I was here in this forum to obtain help on ‘Music’, this has evolved into something a little more of an issue, since what we were seeking was information on ancient music of the BC/AD era. I am, nor was here to support opinion or analysis, just music. To re-cap, the film is not fantasy, such as the film ‘The Robe’ or ‘Ben Hur’ evn though partially fictional, is not fantasy. Though a portion of the film will be based on stories and ancient writings of long ago that have been held as true, it combines with other documented historical information, the times, dress, known historical occurrences in the film. The ‘Spiritual’ part that seems to be a ‘Sore’ issue is related by the stories passed down that do include unexplainable occurrences (Such as the Bible stories passed down) which is not considered ‘Fantasy’, but derived from ancient writings. This is the film. And you are correct, it cannot be proven as hard evidence of the ‘Spiritual’ occurrences, only told by the old writings and stories, just as no one can demand that unusual occurrences did not happen, which is a very valid point and thank you for bringing this up.
I close with this, the opinions here do not lessen nor substantiate any issues, but only opinions and every person has theirs. Again, thank you for your interest, and will add that even though ‘Braveheart’ was not a solid historically accurate film (Even though it was purported as one), this project being compared to a successful film that is a household name is a compliment, and thank you.

You say that "this has evolved into something a little more of an issue, since what we were seeking was information on ancient music of the BC/AD era. I am, nor was here to support opinion or analysis, just music." In all fairness Thomas, you were just as much a part of the evolution of this thread as we have been. We have just responded according to your responses. You are still, even in that last comment insisting on pushing your ideas which only invites the further opinion that you say you are not looking for. As I indicated with my earlier leprechaun metaphor, just because s story is passed down or written down in ancient writing, and a certain number of people believe it, does not bar it from being fictional. Do you honestly think that if in 2ooo years into the future an archaeologist discovers a well preserved Superman comic that it proves that in 1940’s and 50’s USA there was a guy who had x-ray vision that could fly and leap over tall buildings? Do you perhaps believe the Noah’s ark impossibility? But in the end (and from me, this is it) I know from a couple of other film producers I know, that you have an extremely demanding job, so I can only and VERY GENUINELY wish you well with your movie. I confess that by now I am not looking forward to seeing it, but I will no doubt feel compelled. By the way. re- the capitalisation thing… How else are we supposed to emphasise a word on this discussion page?

Can’t see what people are getting their knickers in a twist about. It is just a movie the chap is making, fictional no matter what airs & graces you dress it up in. If Thomas wants to believe all that stuff, let him at it. If people want to watch it, let them. Personally I wouldn’t be arsed.

@Gobby. You *can* emphasise words without using capitals. And use **strong** emphasis if needed.

What bugged me about Brave Heart was the early scene with the kid in rags. In places were people *have* to wear rags they don’t leave cut/torn edges but put rough hems on them (and often have lots of darns) to make the fabric last a little longer. What happened after that?

Gobby: I believe it’s fair to distinguish between ‘fiction’ and ‘fantasy’ - although in a literal sense, they can be synonymous, Thomas seems to be using ‘fantasy’ in the sense of ‘the Fantasy genre’, whereas you seem to be using it in the more generic sense. So, for example, a movie based on Bible stories would not, in general, be called ‘fantasy’ - other than in a derogatory way by critics - but even ‘believers’ would acknowledge that there would be at least an element of fiction in such a movie.

Thomas Bond said "So, the facts that are included are as well known as possible and/or written facts from that time and from that source (Obviously ‘Not’ Roman, since they were prejudicial to the Brits), but as stated ‘All’ facts are deluded by the person’s perception, the one who writes them down. "

How do we know whether something written 2,000 ago was intended *at the time* to be fact or fiction? I regard Beowolf (not that old, but fairly old) as fiction because dragons don’t exist. But did its author, transcriber or early audience believe in dragons and is any of it based on historical events? Is it evidence for the past existence of dragons?

Why not the Roman writings? Being an opponent does not need to preclude good description. Prejudice would make it hard to "know your enemy". And the Romans described a lot of things that we do have archeological information about for comparison.

"You *can* emphasise words without using capitals. And use **strong** emphasis if needed." Thanks for that David. I hadn’t realised that that is how people read it.

The mention by David50 of Beowolf put me in mind of another old tale.
I have a recording of this ‘somewhere’ and must try and find it. I hope it’s not a reel to reel or I am going to be…very unhappy. Marvellous piece of work.

https://thesession.org/recordings/5500

I’d love to see this done in the way the film version of Beowolf was done. Imagine the possiblilties!

Obviously there is no music surviving from those times; to even imagine there would be is absurd and
" the other was ‘Greensleeves’?" ‘Greensleeves’ ??????????? An Elizabethan tune……please !!!!!!!!!!!!

Why should it be absurd to *imagine* something, khasab?