Duplicated Tunes

Duplicated Tunes

It’s annoying - and sometimes embarrassing - when you submit a tune only to discover it’s already here. Many of us have done it (I know I have), but at times the setting is rather different from what’s here already, or it has a completely different name. Like other members, I make an effort to see if a tune is here already by 1) looking for its name, and 2) by trying a couple of combinations of ABC snippets to see if I can find it. It’s not foolproof, and with more than 18,000 tune pages it’s getting harder!

However, it has been happening a lot recently, and quite a few times it appears as if the submitter hasn’t made a minimum effort see if the tune they’re adding has been entered before. It’s maybe not very important, but…

And while I’m at it, why, oh why, oh why do some people (continued overleaf)…

Re: Duplicated Tunes

It’s an interesting problem how some tunes can be found very easily and quickly and others are in dark and dusty corners. Sometimes you can type in the name of a tune and it maybe only appears on the third page of suggestions because you haven’t got the name exactly the same as the main title of the tune on the database.

The same applies to adding tunes. If I decide to add a tune called "Mason’s Apron" the site will let me do so without any warnings but if I try to add a tune called "The Mason’s Apron", up comes a warning to say that a tune by this name is already on site.
That must mean however that some people ignore these warnings. That’s the only explanation I can find for Sandy’s New Chanter (https://thesession.org/tunes/16848) being submitted as a new tune a year ago when there were already six settings (https://thesession.org/tunes/5208) on site.

Re: Duplicated Tunes

This is somewhat related…

If you spot a duplicate, please, please drop me a line (you can use the “contact” link at the bottom of every page) and let me know! If you only leave a comment about the duplication, there’s a chance I might miss it (and also, the comment won’t make any sense when the duplicate is merged into the original).

Thank you!

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Good point, Jeremy, and thanks for merging SNC. Also, rather than commenting about the duplication, a PM to the setter, out of courtesy, (as well as yourself) would, as you say, avoid unnecessary comments being left permanently on site.

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It would be helpful is someone could develop an AI program to find tunes that are substantially the same, regardless of name. Someone do that please.

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Re: Duplicated Tunes

It’s very frustrating when I have a tune notated down from a session (sometimes only one part of the tune, or sometimes missing sections here and there) and I spent a half-hour typing in various note-combinations and either get a hundred hits or zero hits. (There’s almost never anything in between those two extremes!)

When I get a pile of hits I have to go through all of them and usually none are the tune I’m looking for.

I know it’s a combination of the nature of ITM (no two players playing a tune precisely the same) and the nature of ABC notation (there are several ways to notate the same thing).

Since our ears can tell when two tunes are the same tune, but searching dozens of note-groups in the tune cannot, I really wish somebody could come up with a better program.

I had a talk with an AI programmer who is working on this problem in the world of online retail sales, specifically Amazon. A potential customer knows what she’s looking for, but doesn’t know the exact name of the item, and searches and searches and can’t find it. But if that same person walked into a brick-and-mortar shop they would immediately spot the item! It shows the limitations of online shopping. The programmer told me that the problem is extremely complex and difficult to solve.

Re: Duplicated Tunes

Jeremy, what about a ‘holding pen’ for submitted tunes - a time period, during which other users can say that a tune is duplicated and the OP can then amend/delete the post?

David

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Re: Duplicated Tunes

The vast majority of submissions aren’t duplicates, so adjusting the normal flow to account for an edge case would be a bit much, I think.

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I agree - annoying as they are, duplicates are still in the minority. But imagine an AI that could analyze (and transpose!) the ABC and then give you a message like this:

"Wait a minute …it looks like that tune might already be listed. If you want to add a new setting for that tune, you can do that directly from the tune itself.

*[Title] 90% match

Are you absolutely sure the tune you want to submit isn’t a duplicate?"

Re: Duplicated Tunes

That would indeed be a great feature!

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Re: Duplicated Tunes

two useful resources in case people don’t know them - folk tune finder (http://www.folktunefinder.com/) can search for tunes even if they’re transposed, and jc’s tunefinder (http://rudy-rucker.mit.edu/~jc/cgi/abc/tunefind) has a feature to search for a tune by ‘contour’, i.e. whether the pitch goes up or down without having to specify the exact interval.

i’ve had mixed luck with both of these, but i’ve sometimes found matches that i couldn’t find in thesession’s search (and vice versa). of course, neither will help if people don’t want to bother…

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Re: Duplicated Tunes

That’s fine for experienced posters but not necessarily for transcription greenhorns who often haven’t acquainted themselves with the etiquette and guidelines for posting on the session.org.

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On a more serious note, I feel that more issues can sometimes arise when a tune may have several different settings and titles.

Quite often, the "master" entry doesn’t necessarily equate to what most of us might regard to be the correct, original, or most common version of a particular tune(I realise that these may all be different things, of course) in terms of both settings and/or titles.
A year or so ago, I actually took it upon myself to edit one particular tune accordingly https://thesession.org/tunes/2210 as I found the situation quite irritating. :-)

Also, there may be some circumstances where similar sounding tunes are actually different tunes. Should they necessarily be "lumped together" especially if the titles are different?

One example of very similar sounding tunes are The Durham Rangers/Sherwood Rangers(As I know it)
https://thesession.org/tunes/3376

and The Braes of Dunvegan https://thesession.org/tunes/17318 and https://thesession.org/tunes/10620 (Ha…appears to be here twice and someone has also commented on similarity to the Durham Rangers. :-) )

However, without having researched things, I’m fairly confident that they are actually different tunes although the composer(s) may have been subconsciously influenced by one or the other.
The Braes of Dunvegan is usually played in more of a strathspey style than a barn dance. It’s a great tune but I often get mixed up in the second part unless I really concentrate as it’s just that little more different to The Sherwood Rangers.